Character Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

snip


Could you elaborate on why MK is so far down your list of OP characters? Or more specifically why you think Smash 4 Diddy was more OP than MK?

Im not the person you quoted, but I agree with him. Basically Diddy's Fair was as good a wall as MK's. Banana's > Tornado once you learned to deal with Tornado. Recovery doesn't matter so much because a good Diddy isn't going to be gimped often. Diddy can mix up out of his wall with Monkey Flip, which rewards more than MK dash attack or dash grab.

The biggest difference for me is killing power. If you could intelligently avoid Shuttle Loop (which wasn't easy, but doable) MK killed later than the other top characters. Pre-patch Diddy was stupid good at kiling. He has hit confirms with bananas to smash; this alone is pretty amazing... but u-air... I don't need to talk about what it was. It was such a good killing move, ESPECIALLY with the emphasis on juggling this game seems to have. It was silly that a character that beat me in neutral so decisively also killed me earlier and easier, requiring no real read but just a simple trap.

MK felt beatable, Diddy felt like you had no chance, at least for me.

MK did have the Dair from hell, but that only takes you so far. I bet Sm4sh pre-patch Diddy's fair could totally smash the Dair wall.


EDIT: Also, Diddy has a comparable dash grab but much better throws.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

MK's planking and stalling >>> Everything Diddy could do before the patch

Dude needed a specific glitch ban/limit, caused everybody to suffer through the LGL, needed a more specific addition to the "no stalling" rule (gliding under the stage from one side to the other repeatedly faster than the opponent could run), and was the reason why multiple stages were not legal.

Diddy wishes he could have been that broken. Diddy never caused 2 additional rules to be added that hurt other characters (LGL, gliding under the stage was only broken with him, everyone else glided too slowly), or caused stages to be banned (which helped to lead to Brawl's heavy decline).

If you think Diddy was more broken, you need to go back and play Brawl again against a good MK. You'll change your mind in a heartbeat.

 

[Djent]

Yeah, I was gonna say that Diddy > MK after we monkeyed with the ruleset. But like, no kidding; that just means the intended restrictions worked.

 

[DavemanCozy]

MK hype >>>> Diddy tho. I think that high-level Brawl MK took a lot more skill and were more fun to watch.

Thankfully this game has patches and I'm happy with the recent one.

 

[Antonykun]

MK hype >>>> Diddy tho. I think that high-level Brawl MK took a lot more skill and were more fun to watch.

Thankfully this game has patches and I'm happy with the recent one.

I just watched a Brawl MK camping like its no tomorrow is that hype?

 

[Djent]

When most people play [overpowered character], winning still takes "skill." After all, you've controlled for character choice; what does that leave?

 

[bc1910]

Afaik there isnt a comprehensive list for Smash 4 so each character has to be mined manually. I think Reflex noted that most characters have 5F jumpsquats like in Brawl, which holds true for Villager and Mewtwo.

An "easy" way to test this if you don't have recording equipment but have a Wii U and 2 controllers is finding out what frame your character's airdodge intan kicks in by comparing it against other attacks with known hit-on frames, then going into training, setting speed to 1/4 Hold L, inputting a jump with your character and an attack with another on the same frame (this is ensured by inputting the actions while time is stopped then holding the actions while you press L), then inputting airdodge during jumpsquat.

Ex. Mewtwo's airdodge is F2. He gets hit by Lucario's F6 jab but airdodges Bowser's F7 jab, meaning his jumpsquat is 5F.

Great tip, thanks. A bunch of characters seem to have 4F jumpsquats, which probably carries over from Melee where 4F was the lowest jumpsquat time. They dodge Lucario's 6F jab but get hit by Shulk's 5F jab. Greninja, Sheik, Fox, Pikachu and Zero Suit have 4F jumpsquats from who I tested, I'm sure there are more. Greninja seems to be the only newcomer with a 4F jumpsquat, although I didn't try min/min Mii.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Im not the person you quoted, but I agree with him. Basically Diddy's Fair was as good a wall as MK's. Banana's > Tornado once you learned to deal with Tornado. Recovery doesn't matter so much because a good Diddy isn't going to be gimped often. Diddy can mix up out of his wall with Monkey Flip, which rewards more than MK dash attack or dash grab.

The biggest difference for me is killing power. If you could intelligently avoid Shuttle Loop (which wasn't easy, but doable) MK killed later than the other top characters. Pre-patch Diddy was stupid good at kiling. He has hit confirms with bananas to smash; this alone is pretty amazing... but u-air... I don't need to talk about what it was. It was such a good killing move, ESPECIALLY with the emphasis on juggling this game seems to have. It was silly that a character that beat me in neutral so decisively also killed me earlier and easier, requiring no real read but just a simple trap.

MK felt beatable, Diddy felt like you had no chance, at least for me.

MK did have the Dair from hell, but that only takes you so far. I bet Sm4sh pre-patch Diddy's fair could totally smash the Dair wall.


EDIT: Also, Diddy has a comparable dash grab but much better throws.

The entire Brawl meta was engineered to chain down the demon god known as MK. He had a glitch that literally made him untouchable. Could go for one ledge to the other.

He was in every sense of the word, god tier.

And this community was too ***** to ban him from jump street.

Brawl MK would obliterate Smash 4 Diddy. Diddy wouldnt even be able to touch the ****ing ground.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

1% more damage for Ganondorf's jab, Samus' ftilt or a couple of Lucina's moves was the right thing to do for said characters?

In addition to the buffs for the Mii Swordfighter these are all steps in the right direction though - poor characters get buffs on their previously lackluster bread and butter moves to make them less inadequate. Samus, Lucina and Mii Swordfighter are *likely* still bottom 3 of the cast but they're not as irredeemable as they were before. Charizard, Doctor Mario and Zelda also received serviceable buffs.

I'd say it was definitely the right thing to do. It may not have been quite enough but it's a start and they generally buffed the right characters for the right reasons.

 

[Megamang]

MK's planking and stalling >>> Everything Diddy could do before the patch

Dude needed a specific glitch ban/limit, caused everybody to suffer through the LGL, needed a more specific addition to the "no stalling" rule (gliding under the stage from one side to the other repeatedly faster than the opponent could run), and was the reason why multiple stages were not legal.

Diddy wishes he could have been that broken. Diddy never caused 2 additional rules to be added that hurt other characters (LGL, gliding under the stage was only broken with him, everyone else glided too slowly), or caused stages to be banned (which helped to lead to Brawl's heavy decline).

If you think Diddy was more broken, you need to go back and play Brawl again against a good MK. You'll change your mind in a heartbeat.

I was an active tournament attendee after those changes were present, and the LGL was enforced very early by my local TO, so I never experienced the ridiculousness of a planking MK. Im sure that was more broken than diddy, sure.

Its just the levels of frustration that I feel are different. Instead of "how can I punish him" its "punishing him is hard... oh **** I died at 80%"... which to me felt more broken.

I'd rather attend a Diddy only sm4sh tournament that play vanilla brawl once more. I was a MK main, as was everyone who made it into top 8 at any of the tournaments i attended. (Slight exaggeration)

The entire Brawl meta was engineered to chain down the demon god known as MK. He had a glitch that literally made him untouchable. Could go for one ledge to the other.

He was in every sense of the word, god tier.

And this community was too ***** to ban him from jump street.

Brawl MK would obliterate Smash 4 Diddy. Diddy wouldnt even be able to touch the ****ing ground.

Comparing characters from different games is silly though. Melee falco could probably crush MK if there was a LGL. Melee shiek might be able to beat Brawl MK with shino stalling if she could catch up...


Smash 64 pika could probably crush all of sm4sh's characters, if he still had the hitstun and L canceling.

And what physics is this hypothetical match using? Sm4sh, brawl, their respective games? Just because one character could beat another in some hypothetical situation doesn't really matter, what matters is if they are broken within their own game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Smash 64 ANYTHING would obliterate any char in any other smash game except MAYBE 3.0 PM Mewtwo.

I'm assuming each char has their physics/abilities from the smash game where they were the strongest.

Point is Brawl MK completely ****ed up the meta. Diddy had no such effect other then giving people fraudulent wins.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I was an active tournament attendee after those changes were present, and the LGL was enforced very early by my local TO, so I never experienced the ridiculousness of a planking MK. Im sure that was more broken than diddy, sure.

Its just the levels of frustration that I feel are different. Instead of "how can I punish him" its "punishing him is hard... oh **** I died at 80%"... which to me felt more broken.

I'd rather attend a Diddy only sm4sh tournament that play vanilla brawl once more. I was a MK main, as was everyone who made it into top 8 at any of the tournaments i attended. (Slight exaggeration)

That explains it.

When MK was planking properly, he had about 4ish frames where he didn't have invincibility frames from the ledge or his insane Uair hitbox above him (pretty much Diddy's Uair hitbox, but trade the lower portion of the hitbox for even less cooldown. And have 5 jumps.) He could also kill you from the ledge with Shuttle Loop. Or use his insane aerials (I cannot stress this enough: overall MK's aerials were more powerful than SSB4's Diddy aerials) to juggle you off stage, kill you, and easily make it back.

His flow chart with no LGL/Stalling rules were as followed:

Not fighting somebody named Ice Climbers or Snake: Grab the percent lead within about 10 seconds because you're freaking MK, run to the ledge. Watch the opponent cry.

If Ice Climbers: Carefully get the percent lead, make sure not to get grabbed. Run to the ledge. Watch the opponent cry.

If Snake: Most likely trade with one of Snake's tilts or grenades. If have percent lead, run to ledge. If behind in percentage, attack Snake while he's still in the air and completely helpless. Run to the ledge. Watch the opponent cry.

At least with SSB4's Diddy you actually had a mathematical chance of winning. Against MK without those rules, the only ones who could beat him were Ice Climbers. If they played perfectly.

----

This is all to kinda stress a point: we've been through worse as a community. The fact that Diddy got nerfed on top of all of that is sheer bonus. Quite literally nothing in either vanilla or custom SSB4 reaches that level of insanity. Its a healthy thing to keep in mind when freaking out about various things.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, when you're getting off the Bike, Wario cannot crash into the side of the stage; instead, the Bike just floats next to it. This means that running off the ledge, doing Forward-B, and immediately jumping off creates a ~15-frame strong stage spiking hit...it seems to beat Pac-Man and Captain Falcon's Up-Bs, at least. I'll make a more comprehensive list in the future.

Assuming they come from below/ride up the side of the stage, in character select screen order:

Mario Up-B
Luigi Down-B, Luigi Up-B
Bowser Up-B
Rosalina Up-B (duh)
Bowser Jr. Up-B (duh)
Wario Up-B
Diddy Kong Up-B (consistently trades, but, that's fine)
Mr. Game and Watch Up-B
Toon Link Up-B (trades, but, that's fine)
Zero Suit Samus Up-B (trades, but, that's fine)
Pit Up-B (duh)
Robin Up-B
Duck Hunt Up-B (duh)
Kirby Up-B
King Dedede Up-B (duh)
Fox Up-B, Fox Forward-B
Falco Up-B, Falco Forward-B
Charizard Up-B (after the initial armor frames)
Lucario Up-B (duh)
Greninja Up-B (duh)
R.O.B. Up-B (duh)
Captain Falcon Up-B
Olimar Up-B (duh)
Wii Fit Trainer Up-B
Dr. Mario Up-B
Dark Pit Up-B (duh)
Pac-Man Up-B, Pac-Man Forward-B (outside of Power Pellet armor frames)
Mega Man Up-B (duh)
Sonic Up-B (duh)
Mii Brawler Up-B
Mii Gunner Up-B (duh)
Mii Swordsman Up-B

I like it.

 

[Nu~]

So this happened

No one is safe on the ledge

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So this happened

No one is safe on the ledge

Useful, but you have to remember that it resets an opponent's position, too, so they can do a strong aerial and fly up into the air instead of incurring landing lag. Mega could U-Air and ride upward with the projectile keeping him safe/getting him a combo if he hits you.

 

[Nu~]

Useful, but you have to remember that it resets an opponent's position, too, so they can do a strong aerial and fly up into the air instead of incurring landing lag.

True, but it makes their get up predictable. We can always nail the opponent with a bell, hydrant, or Galaxian as they rise up.

If we time it correctly, we can even hit them with an Fsmash on the bounce animation.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

True, but it makes their get up predictable. We can always nail the opponent with a bell, hydrant, or Galaxian as they rise up.

If we time it correctly, we can even hit them with an Fsmash on the bounce animation.

They can still wait on the ledge with the ~30 frames of ledge invincibility. Between waiting and not-waiting and different timings/heights on ledge drop -> jumping aerial or simply moving around it, you're likely to get easier N-Airs and B-Airs but not much else, IMO. I'd love to be proven wrong, of course.

 

[Lavani]

Assuming they come from below/ride up the side of the stage, in character select screen order:

Mario Up-B
Luigi Down-B, Luigi Up-B
Bowser Up-B
Rosalina Up-B (duh)
Bowser Jr. Up-B (duh)
Wario Up-B
Diddy Kong Up-B (consistently trades, but, that's fine)
Mr. Game and Watch Up-B
Toon Link Up-B (trades, but, that's fine)
Zero Suit Samus Up-B (trades, but, that's fine)
Pit Up-B (duh)
Robin Up-B
Duck Hunt Up-B (duh)
Kirby Up-B
King Dedede Up-B (duh)
Fox Up-B, Fox Forward-B
Falco Up-B, Falco Forward-B
Charizard Up-B (after the initial armor frames)
Lucario Up-B (duh)
Greninja Up-B (duh)
R.O.B. Up-B (duh)
Captain Falcon Up-B
Olimar Up-B (duh)
Wii Fit Trainer Up-B
Dr. Mario Up-B
Dark Pit Up-B (duh)
Pac-Man Up-B, Pac-Man Forward-B (outside of Power Pellet armor frames)
Mega Man Up-B (duh)
Sonic Up-B (duh)
Mii Brawler Up-B
Mii Gunner Up-B (duh)
Mii Swordsman Up-B

I like it.

On top of this, you can catch invincible recoveries like teleports too because you're putting a hitbox in front of the ledge for ~15 frames which will catch ledgesnaps. Sheik was the first character I tried it against when I saw your original post.

Also it's probably overkill against most characters, but Speeding Bike's absurd BKB makes this even sillier as an edgeguard. I suppose the lack of durability would make it a MU specific thing though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Easier aerials to reset ledge traps.

Not exactly a TERRIBLE thing, ya know reflex?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but that's a lot of setup for what appears to be a pretty modest payoff. Pac-Man Up-B is pretty nuts as a move in general, though. More power to the players if they find a neat setup, like using Forward-B in tandem or something.

 

[Nu~]

I don't think it makes it predictable enough. They can still wait on the ledge with the ~30 frames of ledge invincibility. Between waiting and not-waiting, ledge roll (I imagine this wouldn't stop ledge rolls, anyway) and ledge drop -> jumping aerial, you're likely to get easier N-Airs and B-Airs but not much else, IMO. I'd love to be proven wrong, of course.

It actually does bounce the opponent if they try to roll up.
It covers every ledge option except jump with a few exceptions


These characters are bounced even if they ledge jump.
If they wait, a hydrant dropped hydrant stage spikes them.

One move isn't that much set up, and both the ledge drop aerial or trampoline aerial can be covered easily by a fruit or aerial.
In tandem with an on fire hydrant, the opponent has to time their jump right or die.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That is probably pretty damn good with the bell, I imagine.

 

[BSP]

Adding onto that, Pac-Man can probably Fsmash some characters for waiting.

 

[mimgrim]

Great tip, thanks. A bunch of characters seem to have 4F jumpsquats, which probably carries over from Melee where 4F was the lowest jumpsquat time. They dodge Lucario's 6F jab but get hit by Shulk's 5F jab. Greninja, Sheik, Fox, Pikachu and Zero Suit have 4F jumpsquats from who I tested, I'm sure there are more. Greninja seems to be the only newcomer with a 4F jumpsquat, although I didn't try min/min Mii.

Fastest jumpsquat in Melee is frame 3.

/nitpick

 

[RedBeefBaron]

There is absolutely no chance that pre patch Diddy was better than Brawl MK. Like, at all.

Diddy was soundly the best character in the game but he wasn't obviously the best, arguably the best, or well above average in every important attribute that makes a character great in top level smash.

MK was had the best range to speed ratio out of anyone bar none (no, sorry marth) and it was all savagely disjointed. He also had top tier mobility. He could invalidate half the cast by getting one hit and walling while running away for 8 minutes due to his unbelievable sword normals and speed.

He had the best damage output in the game, IMO slightly edging out a properly played Diddy. He comboed and juggled people for days and made people free at disadvantage due to his broken range and frame data. He could start a long string after like any whiff against the majority of the cast due to his speed and his normals did way too much damage per hit. Nair may have been glitched making it hit too many times like Peach's dsmash in melee.

His killing power was only above average, but it became insane anyway because of his damage output and how easily he could land his kill moves. Dsmash and shuttle loop could be whiffed repeatedly with no real punishment because of how safe they were. If Shiek's vanish had like 2 frame startup it would be like Brawl MK shuttle loop.

He had the best recovery and edge guarding in the game bar none. He could comfortably follow people out to the blast zones hitting them the whole time and make it back with like two jumps left easy. And if you didn't TKO him he would be coming back for sure because he had the best recovery and trying to edgeguard him air to air was suicide for pretty much the entire cast.

While MK was pretty light he had the best momentum cancel in the game bar none, which made his survivability cleanly above average when combined with his broken recovery. When you saw people mashing uair as MK after getting hit, it's because this allowed him to live far longer than was ever intended.

MK's normals were all ridiculously safe and unpunishable by the majority of the cast. Dair, Dtilt and shuttle loop were completely busted in particular as far as safety goes, but his whole kit was very hard to punish when spaced correctly. A good brawl MK knows how to play without ever taking a real risk. If Diddy had a ranged disjoint like his fair on like, every single one of his moves with the same speed, it would be closer to Brawl MK.

Brawl Tornado and Shuttle Loop>Smash 4 Bananas and monkey flip. Bananas are amazing but they have pitiful durability and can be taken away and used against Diddy by other players who have item fundamentals. Monkey flip is much less exploitable but nowhere near as safe and rewarding as Brawl MK tornado and shuttle loop. And oh yeah, if there wasn't a destiny cape clause MK would've had 9-1 matchups across the board and that's being conservative lol.

Things like MK planking and scrooging (repeatedly flying back and forth ledge to ledge under the stage as a form of stalling) was actually so flagrantly OP that we had to either address or outright ban these strategies to keep everyone from going back to melee while laughing. Scrooging was commonly banned and MK was commonly given an individual rule which would DQ the player if MK touched the ledge too many times. Which didn't even work, because when you have to start arbitrarily limiting a character like that because hes that overpowered people end up thinking the game is trash anyway.

MK, IC wobbling, Snake and to a lesser extent Diddy being great characters due to a bunch of glitches and exploits, and planking in general are the reasons why I look back on that game and have to admit it was trash as much as I loved it. And MK was at least 50% of this. But hey, they cleaned that **** up. Smash 4 is incredible!

TLDR: Lingering Brawl MK salt. If MK never happened and nothing else had changed Brawl would be have been much, much more balanced game overall and not so many competitive players would've seen it as a joke and fragmented the smash community by ignoring Brawl.

 

[Flamecircle]

I want to say Megaman has a really short jumpsquat?

Anyway, do you guys remember lagless shorthop airdodges? Were you could shorthop, airdodge, and cancel the lag with attacks? I've heard that jumping into an opponent and airdodging was a viable approach in brawl. How come I see so little of it in 4?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The entire Brawl meta was engineered to chain down the demon god known as MK. He had a glitch that literally made him untouchable. Could go for one ledge to the other.

He was in every sense of the word, god tier.

And this community was too ***** to ban him from jump street.

Brawl MK would obliterate Smash 4 Diddy. Diddy wouldnt even be able to touch the ****ing ground.

Disagree with this MK's aerial mobility wasn't good. So he wouldn't be able to chase down Diddy in the air. Mk would have to respect a lot of Diddy's tools. I also get the feeling that Diddy flip would go through nado. Then you'd have to ask what game mechanics are we using? Brawl or sm4sh? It's way closer than you're saying. Look at it like this diddy was nerfed and he's still an obscene character. IMO 1.04 diddy should've been banned.

 

[Thinkaman]

Comparing characters across games directly is problematic/futile because it requires lots of weird assumptions on what differences are due of the game engines and what differences are due of the characters.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Comparing characters across games directly is problematic/futile because it requires lots of weird assumptions on what differences are due of the game engines and what differences are due of the characters.

I agree in general, but i kind of feel that Brawl MK was so broken it's not even much of an assumption to make because it's hard to say how engine differences would affect things. Losing his momentum cancel and planking wouldn't be enough, IMO.

 

[Nabbitnator]

1.04 diddy may have been absurd but there was no need to out right ban him. He didnt invalidate most of the cast either as characters still had a chance to win.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I want to say Megaman has a really short jumpsquat?

Anyway, do you guys remember lagless shorthop airdodges? Were you could shorthop, airdodge, and cancel the lag with attacks? I've heard that jumping into an opponent and airdodging was a viable approach in brawl. How come I see so little of it in 4?

Because airdodges actually have landing lag now.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Because airdodges actually have landing lag now.

They're talking about this I believe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

1.04 diddy may have been absurd but there was no need to out right ban him. He didnt invalidate most of the cast either as characters still had a chance to win.

I hear this tired argument all the time. Whenever I ask for a counter there's not much of a response. People aren't willing to call out poor MU's when they see them. But yeah Diddy invalidated a large portion of the cast. Especially without customs the simple fact that uthrow to uair existed meant he was taking stocks from earlier than must. Which couldn't be DI'd. The defense of diddy pre patch is absurd.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A thrown Wario Bike (any variation) has fixed knockback that is affected by the amount of damage dealt. Different throws cause different amounts of damage; for example, a weak throw forward deals 12% as it's falling down. One thing they kept from Brawl is the fact that hitting someone with a Bike throw on the first frame it leaves your hands makes it deal a lot more damage. A weak throw downward causes it to bounce straight up (not very high) and deals 22% at point-blank range. A strong throw downward causes it to bounce upward at a 60-degree angle and deals 26% at point-blank range.

Wario is able to act after throwing the Bike pretty quickly. The real discovery here as of five minutes ago is this: Even if the opponent powershields the Bike throw, the damage it deals is so high that the hitlag the opponent incurs (and not you, since it's a projectile) gives you at least +8 frame advantage (since you can't drop/jump out of your shield before a Jab1 follow-up would hit that shield). Wario's Dash Grab comes out on Frame 8, so this means that a powershielded (or regular shielded, of course) Bike throw guarantees that you get a grab.

The soft/hard throw angle dynamic is to mix-up where the opponent needs to watch out post-throw if they're not close enough to get hit. If they try a Dash Grab on the soft throw, the Bike is directly above them and they get punished. If they stay at mid-range, the Bike starts coming toward them and I can attempt a covered approach with Dash Attack, Dash Grab, etc.

EDIT: Any Bike throw downward -> half/mostly-charged Waft (not full) is a true blockstring combo that breaks a shield from 100% if it's not powershielded. Jeeeeeez. This can also be done with full Turbo Waft or half/full Rose Waft.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

EDIT: Any Bike throw downward -> half/mostly-charged Waft (not full) is a true blockstring combo that breaks a shield from 100% if it's not powershielded. Jeeeeeez. This can also be done with full Turbo Waft or half/full Rose Waft.

Does this mean a full Waft isn't necessary or that a full Waft does less shield damage for some bizarre reason?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I hear this tired argument all the time. Whenever I ask for a counter there's not much of a response.

Who cares? "Has no bad or even matchups" is not the same as "invalidates the cast".

The difference (because this has apparently come up again) between Metaknight and Diddy is best summed up as follows. Diddy gets slightly more reward than he ought to for his shenanigans and is a little safer than is perhaps reasonable. Metaknight had 4 moves which, combined, completely shut out every option of about half the cast. Diddy was "too good". Metaknight is broken.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Full Waft is slower; they start sliding away from you before any Waft starts (and they slide away a TON because of the damage on the Bike hit), so they're out of range by the time Full Waft comes out. Not-full Waft comes out on Frame 5, while Full Waft comes out on Frame 9.

With Rose Waft, the hitbox is so enormous that it hits them anyway (making it at least +9 frame advantage before they can act out of their shield, I guess). Full Turbo Waft comes out on Frame 6, which is fast enough to hit before they go away.

 

[Nobie]

Who cares? "Has no bad or even matchups" is not the same as "invalidates the cast".

The difference (because this has apparently come up again) between Metaknight and Diddy is best summed up as follows. Diddy gets slightly more reward than he ought to for his shenanigans and is a little safer than is perhaps reasonable. Metaknight had 4 moves which, combined, completely shut out every option of about half the cast. Diddy was "too good". Metaknight is broken.

I've often seen people in this thread state, either explicitly or implicitly, that a 6:4 matchup "invalidates," which is where a lot of this confusion comes from. People confuse somewhat bad matchups with being nigh-unwinnable, possibly because at the highest levels of play even the slightest edges can be monumental.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Who cares? "Has no bad or even matchups" is not the same as "invalidates the cast".

The difference (because this has apparently come up again) between Metaknight and Diddy is best summed up as follows. Diddy gets slightly more reward than he ought to for his shenanigans and is a little safer than is perhaps reasonable. Metaknight had 4 moves which, combined, completely shut out every option of about half the cast. Diddy was "too good". Metaknight is broken.

One of MK's strength were his MU's where his worst MU was even. The inability to CP him unless you where MK. Diddy's worst MU is even. I know one MU that Diddy won 7-3 and that was vs Rosalina. Did MK have a strong as MU against another top or high tier character such as diddy? I think not like I said the illusion that these characters can hang with Diddy is just that an illusion. There's probably a handful of character who went even with diddy everyone else eas 6-4 or 7-3 in Diddy's favor.

 

[Pyr]

I've often seen people in this thread state, either explicitly or implicitly, that a 6:4 matchup "invalidates," which is where a lot of this confusion comes from. People confuse somewhat bad matchups with being nigh-unwinnable, possibly because at the highest levels of play even the slightest edges can be monumental.

I have a lot of issues with this. Slight edges that make a match unwinnible results in non-6:4 matchups.

6:4 literally means that x characters wins 6 out of 10 matches, while y wins 4 out of 10, if both players are even of skill at a high, or top, level. The ability for the player to play on a slight edge has nothing to do with it. If that edge allows the player to win more, it becomes something that is not that even. It's taking a simple concept and muddying it.