Character Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

Yeah that argument isn't going to hold water with me. Diddy was and to an extent will satill almost always be found a few times in top 8, but Brawl MK regularly dominated top 8. Even at Apex where, surprisingly enough he actually had good competition, you'd see plenty of MKs in top 8, and so many more in top 32.

Think about WHOBO, y'know, that national he was actually banned at. WHOBO had 2 low mid tiers in its top 8. Brawl would have been a much better game BY FAR had MK not been the beast he was. It's kinda funny I say this, because once upon a time I was pretty aggressively anti-ban! And those results would have been in a meta with a character (two, really) that could 0-death every other character in the game. That's how much more balanced Brawl became. Speaking of which, I think there's a much easier way to argue MK's relative dominance over the cast as opposed to Diddy.

People tend to complain Diddy's guaranteed combos off throws that killed at between 60-100% on most characters. Well here's a fun thing to think about, ICs in Brawl got one grab on you and tough luck, that was most likely the end of your stock. At 0 FREAKING PERCENT. It was infuriating. Do you really think Diddy compares to that level of polarising? And MK was better than the ICs, supposedly (though to be fair, that was mostly due to the fact that no human player could ever perfect the CG to be 100% consistent. I think we all kinda knew in our hearts that if there was a robotic ICs player they would have been near unbeatable lawl, also because there were some bogus ways to get the ICs back together even when they were half a screen apart and offstage).

If you legitimately think Diddy was anywhere near Brawl MK level then I envy you. You probably missed out on many years' pain and tears. I remember playing Brawl for 2 and a half years before getting bopped in a national by a guy who had been playing the game for a year, using MK. This was a supposedly -2 MU too, as opposed to the Marth players I was actually doing semi-decent against (with the exception of one, he knows who he is ).

Some characters would say they had a "-1" MU with MK, and then go on to show records which suggested 75% of the matches that involved the two characters were just straight up MK's win. Pika was a pretty fraudulent case, because he had an even MU with MK and the only person that could even semi claim that and kinda get away with it was ESAM, and even then only barely. By the end of Brawl's lifespan most Pika mains were saying "0.5 MK's favour BUT WE LIKE THE LOOK OF AN EVEN MU WITH MK SO LET'S KEEP IT WHERE IT IS" and gave us all false hope. =P THE DREAM WAS DEAD LONG AGO PIKA MAINS! ;___;

 

[Nobie]

I have a lot of issues with this. Slight edges that make a match unwinnible results in non-6:4 matchups.

6:4 literally means that x characters wins 6 out of 10 matches, while y wins 4 out of 10, if both players are even of skill at a high, or top, level. The ability for the player to play on a slight edge has nothing to do with it. If that edge allows the player to win more, it becomes something that is not that even. It's taking a simple concept and muddying it.

I'm actually not disagreeing with you here. Rather, what I'm saying is that a small difference can feel like a huge one when you lose to it. It's the idea, for example, that you're going toe to toe with pre-patch Diddy Kong, both down to your last stock, and both at KO percentages. Only, Diddy Kong pulls out an up air, or a fair, or whatever, and takes the win because he had something your character didn't. It could be a very specific situation, a spacing error, a read, maybe even some good/bad DI, but in that instance that one miniscule difference can seem like the world. "Why didn't I get that extra pummel in?" I think old Diddy probably generated those feelings more than any other character.

 

[Pyr]

I'm actually not disagreeing with you here. Rather, what I'm saying is that a small difference can feel like a huge one when you lose to it. It's the idea, for example, that you're going toe to toe with pre-patch Diddy Kong, both down to your last stock, and both at KO percentages. Only, Diddy Kong pulls out an up air, or a fair, or whatever, and takes the win because he had something your character didn't. It could be a very specific situation, a spacing error, a read, maybe even some good/bad DI, but in that instance that one miniscule difference can seem like the world. "Why didn't I get that extra pummel in?" I think old Diddy probably generated those feelings more than any other character.

I like the matchup system as described because it has a theoretical, but examined, basis for it. If a character, such as Diddy, is able to consistently win because they are able to take that option, the matchup listing needs to be re-examined.

That said, feels are dangerous and limiting because they are not objective. They are time consuming because of the amount of re-examination that is required. I am not directing the following statement at you, because I don't know you, so please do not be offended or read into it. Again, not directed at you. The average player today does not have the ability to look at their own play and objectively see past their feelings of what happened in the match to what actually happened. They can't see their flaws because it's easier to think, "I lost because x just can't handle y" or "z is over-powered/unbeatable."

 

[Locke 06]

I want to say Megaman has a really short jumpsquat?

Anyway, do you guys remember lagless shorthop airdodges? Were you could shorthop, airdodge, and cancel the lag with attacks? I've heard that jumping into an opponent and airdodging was a viable approach in brawl. How come I see so little of it in 4?

MM's jump squat is 4 frames (airborne on f5) which is why SH lemoning is more difficult than people expect when they first pick up the character.

Airdodge lag canceling is something I'd like to see more of. It's a slight thing, but can really make a difference. During a button check, I saw a Sheik messing with ledge drop>double jump air dodge> Autocancelled BAir (before the hitbox came out). Took me a while to figure out what she was doing, but it is a nice mixup.

Moves like Diddy's DAir serves this purpose very very well.

 

[Shaya]

Welp, when I made my statement of S4 Diddy > Brawl MK I made sure to explicitly state the caveat of with rulesets in mind. Guess people need to echo what I say a bit better so I don't have to read the obvious response to "hurr planking" over and over. Guess what? with an LGL, MK holding onto a ledge was in a lot of **** (i.e. near guaranteed to take damage/potentially even his stock lost).
MK playing the same game as everyone else, vs abusing what he could do without rules to limit him. The former is what I'm sure everyone was talking about.

The reality is that Diddy was dominating results far beyond MK did at the same time in the game's lifespan , and probably better at a regional level than MK did at most stages of Brawl's history as well.
I also made sure to note that fighting Diddy was unfair. Because no one had everything like Diddy had, nor did anyone else really have anything they could abuse against him to even it up (Luigi exception). Characters with good MK match ups had similar or better range, better kill power, comparable or sometimes better frame data, explicit safety on shield (something MK didn't really have at all beyond up air, and most players struggled with dair) and "bull ****" like chain grabs or free kill set ups.
Meta Knight had the best advantageous state, but his neutral was not leaps and bounds better than the rest of the best characters, but his disadvantaged state was pretty bull **** though. He had a hard time approaching characters, but this was negated by being the only character bar ICs which could force a stock to be taken from a single successful read or hit confirm.
Other characters like Marth had grab release kill set ups (don't get grabbed near a ledge after 30%; i.e. one other grab because we did near 30% guaranteed on MK from a throw early)/guaranteed damage that would outdo MK's grab. Falco, Olimar, Pikachu etc etc could reliably get a large percent lead and then make it HELL for MK to bring it back (which was how every character's meta focused on beating MK; forcing him to approach).

Now S4 Diddy in Brawl wouldn't have the ability to use Bananas (used to be transcended priority) to restrain Tornado and hence would likely not have a good time. BUT; I wouldn't be surprised if his Fair would cleanly beat it from the sides due to it's disjoint. He didn't really ever come to be in a disadvantaged state from what we've seen in Smash4 meta thus far, and this is something we know for sure MK had and he struggled to overcome it. From everything we saw from 1.04 up to now, there was never such a struggle, it's been mostly white wash the entire time.

I'm lucky, I was playing against the best meta knights that ever existed near me from day 1 of Brawl. Eventually training with Mew2King and Tyrant; the best MKs in every region I traveled to bar NY/NJ and Socal could not truly beat me in the match up (well I am one of those people who thought MK's worst match up was probably Marth). If MK could be outdone in neutral and outrewarded by anyone with grabs, he didn't have an easy time. No one out neutraled Diddy in this game bar maybe Sheik, no one came even close to the rewards Diddy did in this game either. That's my perspective. I envy those who didn't have the opportunity to be emasculated by ZeRo, Mew2King or Tyrant's Diddy's. But I will openly admit that I had a lot of time on my side to come to my MK conclusions and not so much the same with Diddy.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's important to realize all MU ratios are theoretical, and therefore do not account for player skill.

At the basic level, all MU ratings are based on is frame data, specials, and reward on hit confirm (i.e, an attack that landed during neutral that leads into a follow-up). Reads, especially hard reads, are usually not accounted for. However, our MU system is flawed because our game must account for stages, weight, mobility, advantageous/disadvantageous positions, and off-stage play. There's honestly not a lot of accurate MU ratios for any Smash game, but we can get pretty close and have a strong description to back it up. However, people not versed in the ability to theorycraft (as in, they only go by experience and do not read data and study applications of it, which mostly comes from watching videos) often skew the accuracy of these ratings because Player X wrecked Player Y in a local tournament.

As for Pre-Nerf Diddy, he didn't invalidate characters but he sure as hell had solid advantages across the board, and having a guaranteed kill set up solidified that further. If the metagame continued to evolve with pre-nerf Diddy, I could see the advantages become more in his favor (He already destroyed Rosalina and Sheik during the time), because he already had all the tools necessary to deck every character in this game. It's very fortunate his kill setups were nerfed to the ground and it takes high level play to show the power of this character now.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah that argument isn't going to hold water with me. Diddy was and to an extent will satill almost always be found a few times in top 8, but Brawl MK regularly dominated top 8. Even at Apex where, surprisingly enough he actually had good competition, you'd see plenty of MKs in top 8, and so many more in top 32.

Think about WHOBO, y'know, that national he was actually banned at. WHOBO had 2 low mid tiers in its top 8. Brawl would have been a much better game BY FAR had MK not been the beast he was. It's kinda funny I say this, because once upon a time I was pretty aggressively anti-ban! And those results would have been in a meta with a character (two, really) that could 0-death every other character in the game. That's how much more balanced Brawl became. Speaking of which, I think there's a much easier way to argue MK's relative dominance over the cast as opposed to Diddy.

People tend to complain Diddy's guaranteed combos off throws that killed at between 60-100% on most characters. Well here's a fun thing to think about, ICs in Brawl got one grab on you and tough luck, that was most likely the end of your stock. At 0 FREAKING PERCENT. It was infuriating. Do you really think Diddy compares to that level of polarising? And MK was better than the ICs, supposedly (though to be fair, that was mostly due to the fact that no human player could ever perfect the CG to be 100% consistent. I think we all kinda knew in our hearts that if there was a robotic ICs player they would have been near unbeatable lawl, also because there were some bogus ways to get the ICs back together even when they were half a screen apart and offstage).

If you legitimately think Diddy was anywhere near Brawl MK level then I envy you. You probably missed out on many years' pain and tears. I remember playing Brawl for 2 and a half years before getting bopped in a national by a guy who had been playing the game for a year, using MK. This was a supposedly -2 MU too, as opposed to the Marth players I was actually doing semi-decent against (with the exception of one, he knows who he is ).

Some characters would say they had a "-1" MU with MK, and then go on to show records which suggested 75% of the matches that involved the two characters were just straight up MK's win. Pika was a pretty fraudulent case, because he had an even MU with MK and the only person that could even semi claim that and kinda get away with it was ESAM, and even then only barely. By the end of Brawl's lifespan most Pika mains were saying "0.5 MK's favour BUT WE LIKE THE LOOK OF AN EVEN MU WITH MK SO LET'S KEEP IT WHERE IT IS" and gave us all false hope. =P THE DREAM WAS DEAD LONG AGO PIKA MAINS! ;___;

I'm not really sure if I'm following you but MU's are based on the highest level of play. If esam was able to demonstrate an even MU the MU is even. Your shortcomings as a player don't decide a MU and neither does mine or anyone else's for that matter.

With that said IC's could be a problem. If you seperated them your where able to do kill their strategy. You're basically saying that we gave IC ability to kill from a grab made it simpler rolled it into one character. However, you better not complain cause IC. Stop it as for the execution requirements I do not believe that it was a difficult as you claim. My younger cousin was able to do it and he just learned from me teaching him. He's never been to smashboards never read any guides. Also with tine execution barriers can be broken all it takes is practice practice and more practice.

As for losing to a mk who has less experience than you is meaningless. You don't kniw what type of work he put into his training. If you think experience is a factor in winning you're sorely mistaken. There's also something called skill and talent. No I'm not trying to put you down as a player. What I'm attempting to do is illustrate the fallacy in your logic and reasoning.

 

[Ulevo]

Guys, is debating over Brawl Meta Knight, who no one plays anymore, versus pre-patch Diddy Kong, who no one can play anymore, really that relevant or important? Give me something interesting to read.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Lucina is better than Marth.

 

[Nobie]

Lucina is better than Marth.

It's always bothered me that they bothered to give Lucina completely different shield break animation but everything about it is the same aside from no tipper.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I dunno, I just decided this morning that, hey, Lucina fsmash kills at ludicrous percentages and really isn't significantly less safe on shield than Marth in general. It still amazes me even before the supposed Lucina buffs that people had Marth at least a tier above her and still call her "the worst character in the game".


lol.

 

[Shaya]

Lucina's fsmash was buffed and it was her best asset that set her apart from Marth.
Still aren't going to get me rating a character with half the moveset depth as everyone else as that good. But yes, the gap between them now is probably a bit lower.
The power of her fsmash was always pretty critical and basically the only move with a noticeably different scaling on knockback.
Congratulations Lucina players, her only kill option (yes yes, up smash) just got slightly better with nothing that made that kill option actually applicable to most matches being improved at all.

But if Dancing blade is fixed, I'm sorry, but Lucina is a lot worse for it. Tipper db4 kills under 100% even with a bit of staling and it tends to naturally space up that way as it is. Although I've never actually looked at lucina's DB much, it could actually kill well?

 

[Asdioh]

In other news, I did that test I mentioned yesterday, and Diddy's Fair seems to still have the disjoint (presumably the same) because, like I tested before, it beats Kirby's Bair at max range, and trades with it at close range.

edit:

 

[Quickhero]

I dunno, I just decided this morning that, hey, Lucina fsmash kills at ludicrous percentages and really isn't significantly less safe on shield than Marth in general. It still amazes me even before the supposed Lucina buffs that people had Marth at least a tier above her and still call her "the worst character in the game".

I wouldn't really consider a move that kills at around 100% on a move with a ton of lag and on a character that takes a while to get to that percentage as "ludicrous". It sounds pretty bleh to me.

Marth gets the reward for a really hard to hit f-smash with one of the earliest killing moves in the game, but it's still far from reliable enough for us to say it makes Marth a great character. The Dancing Blade buff gave us a lot more combo options and a kill option that kills at around 100%. Combine that with Marth getting access to other combos that have a bit more reward, (albeit a bit strict) such as f-throw to f-air to u-air, and you can see these turn Marth into a much better character overall.

Take away the selling point on a character that needs the mechanic to become someone worth the practice (for the dedicated player) and you get what is called a mediocre character. Sorry man. :\

 

[Cassio]

Lucina Fsmash wins my award for most BS move in smash 4. I know thats super bias, lol. @ KuroganeHammer I cant tell if you posted that in response to my list of BS moves in smash 4 or coincidentally came to a similar conclusion at the same time but either way thumbs up.

At the very least, there may be MUs where its better to pick Lucina rather then Marth.

Marth is probably my second most used character but I feel kind of dirty when I pick Lucina (no offense to Lucina mains).
[collapse=Shaya Post]

Welp, when I made my statement of S4 Diddy > Brawl MK I made sure to explicitly state the caveat of with rulesets in mind. Guess people need to echo what I say a bit better so I don't have to read the obvious response to "hurr planking" over and over. Guess what? with an LGL, MK holding onto a ledge was in a lot of **** (i.e. near guaranteed to take damage/potentially even his stock lost).
MK playing the same game as everyone else, vs abusing what he could do without rules to limit him. The former is what I'm sure everyone was talking about.

The reality is that Diddy was dominating results far beyond MK did at the same time in the game's lifespan , and probably better at a regional level than MK did at most stages of Brawl's history as well.
I also made sure to note that fighting Diddy was unfair. Because no one had everything like Diddy had, nor did anyone else really have anything they could abuse against him to even it up (Luigi exception). Characters with good MK match ups had similar or better range, better kill power, comparable or sometimes better frame data, explicit safety on shield (something MK didn't really have at all beyond up air, and most players struggled with dair) and "bull ****" like chain grabs or free kill set ups.
Meta Knight had the best advantageous state, but his neutral was not leaps and bounds better than the rest of the best characters, but his disadvantaged state was pretty bull **** though. He had a hard time approaching characters, but this was negated by being the only character bar ICs which could force a stock to be taken from a single successful read or hit confirm.
Other characters like Marth had grab release kill set ups (don't get grabbed near a ledge after 30%; i.e. one other grab because we did near 30% guaranteed on MK from a throw early)/guaranteed damage that would outdo MK's grab. Falco, Olimar, Pikachu etc etc could reliably get a large percent lead and then make it HELL for MK to bring it back (which was how every character's meta focused on beating MK; forcing him to approach).

Now S4 Diddy in Brawl wouldn't have the ability to use Bananas (used to be transcended priority) to restrain Tornado and hence would likely not have a good time. BUT; I wouldn't be surprised if his Fair would cleanly beat it from the sides due to it's disjoint. He didn't really ever come to be in a disadvantaged state from what we've seen in Smash4 meta thus far, and this is something we know for sure MK had and he struggled to overcome it. From everything we saw from 1.04 up to now, there was never such a struggle, it's been mostly white wash the entire time.

I'm lucky, I was playing against the best meta knights that ever existed near me from day 1 of Brawl. Eventually training with Mew2King and Tyrant; the best MKs in every region I traveled to bar NY/NJ and Socal could not truly beat me in the match up (well I am one of those people who thought MK's worst match up was probably Marth). If MK could be outdone in neutral and outrewarded by anyone with grabs, he didn't have an easy time. No one out neutraled Diddy in this game bar maybe Sheik, no one came even close to the rewards Diddy did in this game either. That's my perspective. I envy those who didn't have the opportunity to be emasculated by ZeRo, Mew2King or Tyrant's Diddy's. But I will openly admit that I had a lot of time on my side to come to my MK conclusions and not so much the same with Diddy.

[/collapse]
Interesting perspective (seriously), though I personally disagree. Its true that neither character is terribly relevant right now so I wont tug this further.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've been doing a whole lot of good for Wario by spending the last couple days in the lab.

(Everything I say is in the video description; sorry about the low sound.)

 

[Shaya]

Guys, is debating over Brawl Meta Knight, who no one plays anymore, versus pre-patch Diddy Kong, who no one can play anymore, really that relevant or important? Give me something interesting to read.

Spoiler

Also for the sake of "why". These perspectives I have form the basis of my current opinions on all sorts of things (i.e. "what's unhealthy for a game/etc"). Brawl really is the ultimate case study for any theory-crafter, probably more universal than JUST SMASH too.

Pre-patch Diddy was probably something worth quitting the game for. I really wasn't looking forward to this game after WiiU dropped and only had a positive outlook to the future due to balance patches being all but certain. I don't know what I would've done had this been the same paradigm as Brawl... get back into league or pokemon I guess? Or been in the diddy-ban wagon very early, which I kinda was.

Anywho, not trying to extend the conversation, you're pretty right, it shouldn't dominate for pages and pages.

 

[Cassio]

Personally I was never a fan of how quickly people reached conclusions on the game one way or another (this extends to customs). Probably my biggest pet peeve with a lot of the community (with people in general really) when it came to smash 4.

 

[Blobface]

I've been doing a whole lot of good for Wario by spending the last couple days in the lab.

(Everything I say is in the video description; sorry about the low sound.)

Guaranteed shield break strings?

Smash 64 confirmed.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Lucina Fsmash wins my award for most BS move in smash 4. I know thats super bias, lol. @ KuroganeHammer I cant tell if you posted that in response to my list of BS moves in smash 4 or coincidentally came to a similar conclusion at the same time but either way thumbs up.

At the very least, there may be MUs where its better to pick Lucina rather then Marth.

Marth is probably my second most used character but I feel kind of dirty when I pick Lucina (no offense to Lucina mains).
[collapse=Shaya Post][/collapse]
Interesting perspective (seriously), though I personally disagree. Its true that neither character is terribly relevant right now so I wont tug this further.

I didn't see that post, I'm just posting this because I KOd a Bowser at like, 80% with fsmash.

And a Mewtwo at 60%... On the other side of smashville.

The power/speed/range is absurd for its relative safety.

Thankfully the move is stale normally.

 

[Ffamran]

Personally I was never a fan of how quickly people reached conclusions on the game one way or another (this extends to customs). Probably my biggest pet peeve with a lot of the community (with people in general really) when it came to smash 4.

Change this to all communities or everything in general. Remember rock 'n' roll or rather how it started out? Yeah, it be the devil's music. Or Dungeons & Dragons being a work of the devil? Or Devil May Cry 2 being a horrible game that offered nothing to the franchise and is why Capcom is hesitant on making a sequel taking place after DMC2 or 4 or that people attribute Hideki Kamiya to everything about DMC? Yeah, DMC2 introduced on the fly weapon switching, a primitive Style button, and DMC's current control scheme. Oh, and Hideaki Itsuno along with Hideki Kamiya should be attributed to what DMC is now today with Itsuno being the primary director the beloved DMC3 which is considered the best DMC game to date aside from DMC4 in terms of gameplay and DMC1 'cause of nostalgia.

It's going to happen regardless, but we are capable of noticing it and subverting it because of how we can provide so much footage/evidence. Remember Greninja? Greninja did get nerfed after 1.0.0, but as aMSa proved at Apex alongside other Greninja players, Greninja's still a force to be reckoned with. Meta Knight was considered horribly nerfed despite people asking for his nerfs - hypocrites, the lot of you -, but as Ito, Katakiri, Unknown, and all the Meta Knights, he isn't as nerfed as he seems, instead, Meta Knight is a strong contender without being broken other than having weird hitboxes that hurt his game. Credit Will for DK's success and Boss, J. Miller, False, Mr. ConCon, etc. for Luigi's. Hell, even credit Leffen, ZeRo, and Jtails for Diddy's. It probably won't be 6 freaking years until people realize a character isn't as bad as they seem or is horribly broken. It was noted early that Sheik has trouble killing and Diddy's only "broken" in a sense he's just better than everyone as a jack of all trades; master of all and not broken in a sense of being able to stall the game out like Brawl Meta Knight or exploiting the game so badly like Melee Fox.

Compare that to Melee Jigglypuff or Brawl Ike, Sonic, and Wolf's ups and downs. We're already seeing a lot of progress within the veil of misconceptions and first impressions. If SSB4 was released 8 years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if Diddy was already banned or characters like Falco, Meta Knight, and DK were left in the dustbin.

 

[Antonykun]

Hey did you know Swordfighter D-tilt combos into F-air at certain percents?

 

[Ffamran]

Hey did you know Swordfighter D-tilt combos into F-air at certain percents?

Is this like the 10% windows for Mr. Game & Watch's throw - I don't know which throw - to Uair that GimR's been doing?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucina Fsmash wins my award for most BS move in smash 4. I know thats super bias, lol. @ KuroganeHammer I cant tell if you posted that in response to my list of BS moves in smash 4 or coincidentally came to a similar conclusion at the same time but either way thumbs up.

At the very least, there may be MUs where its better to pick Lucina rather then Marth.

Marth is probably my second most used character but I feel kind of dirty when I pick Lucina (no offense to Lucina mains).
[collapse=Shaya Post][/collapse]
Interesting perspective (seriously), though I personally disagree. Its true that neither character is terribly relevant right now so I wont tug this further.

Marth still has tipper F-tilt as a faster KO option over anything else in Lucina's kit, and the raw power of tipper Shield Breaker has to be respected in midrange. Furthermore against characters that they can't gimp offstage, Lucina still doesn't have very easy ways to kill in the air while Marth's tipper aerials actually sorta kill. I'd argue Marth is still better than Lucina because of those factors mostly, though I can probably see against Pikachu why it would be easier to win with Lucina.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Watched Smash 4-Ever 16 Grand Finals. Nairo had Robin out for the first two games against Angel Cortez's Diddy. It's very noticeable how Robin has a very difficult time handling characters like Diddy Kong, who basically just has to rush down in order to kick ass and take names. Nairo was barely lucky to win the second game with Robin, given Cortez self-destructed halfway through the second game.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Watched Smash 4-Ever 16 Grand Finals. Nairo had Robin out for the first two games against Angel Cortez's Diddy. It's very noticeable how Robin has a very difficult time handling characters like Diddy Kong, who basically just has to rush down in order to kick *** and take names. Nairo was barely lucky to win the second game with Robin, given Cortez self-destructed halfway through the second game.

Really like how Angel is sticking with Diddy and doing well post patch. He stomped Nairo's Robin and and did well against his ZSS besides that last game. Second place is nothing to sneeze at. Props to people who stick with their mains after nerfs.

 

[Teran]

In other news, I did that test I mentioned yesterday, and Diddy's Fair seems to still have the disjoint (presumably the same) because, like I tested before, it beats Kirby's Bair at max range, and trades with it at close range.

edit:

Are you sure? I've been getting more frequent equal trades post patch, but if you've thoroughly tested it I'll take your word for it because the move is still amazing lol

 

[Asdioh]

Are you sure? I've been getting more frequent equal trades post patch, but if you've thoroughly tested it I'll take your word for it because the move is still amazing lol

If there's a better aerial to test on, lemme know. Kirby Bair comes out on frame 6, and his hitbox is also his hurtbox because that's Kirby in a nutshell. Diddy's Fair is also frame 6, and the hitbox should also be a hurtbox, but apparently it's not because Diddy in a peanutshell.

I just took them to BF, used 1/4 Press L Training Mode, had them on a platform facing the appropriate directions, with them just shy of max distance away from each other on the platform. Hold down, tap L, they both platform drop, let go of L, hold C-sticks in appropriate directions, tap L, watch the magic happen. Kirby gets hit, Diddy doesn't. It's entirely possible the disjointed hitbox is less than it used to be, but it's definitely there.
Also hi!

 

[Lavani]

The strong hit of Diddy's fair has enough disjoint to safely detonate a Bob-omb (but not a Gooey Bomb [bigger explosion]), which is the same as how it was pre-patch.

The late hit pre-patch could safely detonate Gooey Bombs, but despite trying for a good while I haven't managed to safely detonate even a Bob-omb with the late hit now.

I'm quite certain the late hit's a smaller hitbox now instead of a bigger one, but the early hit definitely still has its disjoint.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Really like how Angel is sticking with Diddy and doing well post patch. He stomped Nairo's Robin and and did well against his ZSS besides that last game. Second place is nothing to sneeze at. Props to people who stick with their mains after nerfs.

I know right? Diddy is still considered to be an excellent character even after the nerfs he obtained from the 1.05 patch. What's interesting now is how people like ZeRo and Cortez are adapting to the new changes. With Hoo Hah nerfed, it was amazing to see how Cortez utilized different options out of grab, like Up-Throw Up-Air, Hoo Hah, Down-Throw Down-Air, and Up-Throw Up-B.

And considering some people are still using Sheik despite her nerfs, it's very likely that Diddy Kong will continue to remain as one of the best characters that Sm4sh has to offer.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Does anyone have any confirmation on whether monkey flip's knockback was reduced on the kick? Still not sure about this.

 

[Teran]

@ Asdioh try Sheik's fair

 

[A2ZOMG]

Does anyone have any confirmation on whether monkey flip's knockback was reduced on the kick? Still not sure about this.

Damage nerf right? Should also do less knockback as a result.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Damage nerf right? Should also do less knockback as a result.

But the base KB and KB growth are untouched?

 

[HeroMystic]

We won't know about BKB and KBG changes until the data is dumped, and not a moment sooner.

And keep in mind damage is also part of the knockback formula, so less damage means less knockback.

 

[Shaya]

It's almost linear as well.

Sheik's bair going from 11% to 8% is like almost a 30% knockback nerf.
Interestingly enough that does tend to scale somewhere between 1:2 to 1:1 on actual kill percent too.

I've never actually really fully "got" BKB/KBG so I could be off here.

But for rage my rule of thumb tends to be "[ratio of 100% / kill percent] the damage over rage starting = how much lower something will kill".
At least for Marth's up throw which killing at 180% normally, I'm looking at 150% if I'm at 100%rage and at 150%rage I'm looking at 120-130%.

 

[Blobface]

Have we confirmed any sort of formula for Rage? As in, how does it affect BKB and KBG? I can't seem to find one anywhere.

 

[Shaya]

I think we've confirmed it scales with the combination of the two and not one more than the other.

It really will always depend on distance from blastzones or whatever, but perfectly vertical knockback is pretty consistent, so as I said, that's my working rule of thumb. I rarely ever miss my up throw kill.

 

[Nairo]

Watched Smash 4-Ever 16 Grand Finals. Nairo had Robin out for the first two games against Angel Cortez's Diddy. It's very noticeable how Robin has a very difficult time handling characters like Diddy Kong, who basically just has to rush down in order to kick *** and take names. Nairo was barely lucky to win the second game with Robin, given Cortez self-destructed halfway through the second game.

The MU isnt in Robins favor but it isnt that bad. That was the first time Angel beat my Robin the past 5 sets we've had (2-0 Robin vs Diddy but SHOUTOUTS TO KEITARO NOT SAVING A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE SETS)

 

[allshort17]

Still aren't going to get me rating a character with half the moveset depth as everyone else as that good. But yes, the gap between them now is probably a bit lower.

But compared to Marth, what's the difference? Even though Marth has 2 hitboxs, the weak one rarely adds anything and is usually discouraged. It may be useful for comboing off of nair/bair, but mostly it's just a worse hitbox for Marth in every way. So essencially, Marth really only has 1 hitbox you want, just like Lucina, but unlike her, also has to worry about an inferior hitbox. I know that Marth is still better because his tipper hitbox is better than Lucina's, however it seems unfair to say Marth has more depth when his weak hitbox doesn't add anything.