Character Competitive Impressions

[Cassio]

So where does Charizard rank in this?

I meant to include his flare blitz, it'd be near the bottom but it's most definitely BS

Looking at my own list is upsetting. You're just following your good ol standard gameplan when...BAM!...dead. Frequently forced to treat large portions of your stock as if you're at death percent which is BS.

Stuff like Diddy's fair makes so little sense to me though.
It was already considered the best or second best forward air in Brawl (a contest between Marth/Diddy and everyone else paled in comparison really).
So they buffed it's start up, hit box size/range, auto cancel/landing lag, and originally kept it's damage high as well.

Basically the EXACT opposing 'buffs' were applied to Marth's fair, qq.

Shaya pls

Id rather combat diddys fair over Marths as Pikachu by a long shot even in smash 4. Storytime, one of the first times I played smash 4 was over thanksgiving weekend at sky's. By then the ban diddy drama etc. had happened. Wanting to see the horror for myself I played Zeros diddy for 7-8 straight games. Aside from one all games were last game last hit, and my basic strategy I figured out as I played was run under diddy and nair. Obv it's been awhile but it left a pretty large impression on diddys weakness in his SH aerial game.

Unlike marth, MK (brawl), and others diddys fair doesn't have the useful arcs that clip forward facing approaches all around .

Edit: this is it's own bias perspective but its strength probably is closer to the middle/MU based.

 

[Shaya]

I know exactly why PIKACHU may prefer Diddy's fair over Marths. But that's just one attribute of the move which Diddy's vastly overwhelms otherwise.

Being able to crouch below Diddy's fair in Brawl was a thing too, I know.

 

[Teshie U]

@ Indigo Jeans most of those reasons are very small parts of the matchups. Villager doesn't need much room to breathe as he has pretty good moves up close as well as far away.

Little Mac probably doesnt have a terrible time with villager (a rare character that cant shield grab most of his attacks), but i dont see it as a tough matchup for villager just because of edgeguarding.

 

[Cassio]

I honestly think arcing moves (and how they arc) are a very VERY underrated attribute in judging a moves utility. It adds a lot to it's versatility and a characters ability to be mobile.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Wow, didn't expect that. The best player in our region mains Little Mac exclusively and the only player he has a losing record against (and is considering a secondary for) uses Villager.

Once people learn that dodging Lloid is better than shielding it since that doesn't allow Villager to just generate another right away the MU gets tough. Little Mac closes distances really quickly and overall has better frame data than Villager. The super armour doesn't help. I mean yeah if Little Mac is just running around throwing out dash attack he's gonna get bopped by slingshots, but I feel walking is his best option in the MU because he gets his FTilt and all of his smashes at a moments notice, along with shield obv and dash for pivot FTilt crossups.

@ Indigo Jeans most of those reasons are very small parts of the matchups. Villager doesn't need much room to breathe as he has pretty good moves up close as well as far away.

Little Mac probably doesnt have a terrible time with villager (a rare character that cant shield grab most of his attacks), but i dont see it as a tough matchup for villager just because of edgeguarding.

Villager's fastest attacks for getting pressure off are jab (F3) and NAir (earliest is F8), which honestly not that good, especially since they don't have a whole lot of trouble getting back in.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I honestly think arcing moves (and how they arc) are a very VERY underrated attribute in judging a moves utility. It adds a lot to it's versatility and a characters ability to be mobile.

Most of which is lost somewhere on their massive landing lag. See: MK, Marth, even Ike, Shulk and Mii Sworfighter. God, swords were nerfed so hard for this game....

 

[Cassio]

I mean kind of. Landing lag is just a different attribute. But that's kind of why I think swords are still underrated. In Brawl I always tried to take full advantage of what range pika had and part of that was finding the uncomfortable angles for opponents. I think that was most prominent vs Warrio in brawl, in air to air combat pikas strength was having moves that angled better where Warrio typically had to be in a cardinal direction to hit pikas.

 

[Chuva]

The Pits have both the disjoint hitbox coverage and decent frame data (with SH auto-cancel on all aerials), which might explain why they're so legit.

 

[Megamang]

I mean kind of. Landing lag is just a different attribute. But that's kind of why I think swords are still underrated. In Brawl I always tried to take full advantage of what range pika had and part of that was finding the uncomfortable angles for opponents. I think that was most prominent vs Warrio in brawl, in air to air combat pikas strength was having moves that angled better where Warrio typically had to be in a cardinal direction to hit pikas.

I think things like this are very emphasized when you are dealing with a tiny hurtbox. I feel my angle of approach is much more important with pika than almost anyone else; he shoots in like a little rolling ball of moderate knockback and electricity.

Yet when I play ZSS I find myself more focused on other facets of my game.

 

[FimPhym]

It's the same business a lot of character's back airs get, just someone thought it was a good idea to have it on Diddy's fair.

Stuff like Diddy's fair makes so little sense to me though.
It was already considered the best or second best forward air in Brawl (a contest between Marth/Diddy and everyone else paled in comparison really).
So they buffed it's start up, hit box size/range, auto cancel/landing lag, and originally kept it's damage high as well.

Basically the EXACT opposing 'buffs' were applied to Marth's fair, qq.

It's impossible to know exactly what goes on during smash dev, but it's an interesting question. I can think of a plausible reason his moves got buffs.

Looking back to before diddy caught on in 1.0.4 I remember the only thing I heard anyone say was "only one banana at a time? Banana goes away after one hit? No glide tossing? RIP diddy kong". The banana nerfs were really significant, I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to shift diddy's power away from banana gameplay and onto his aerials.

As always, it's hard to free ourselves from our current more informed perspective, but if the devs were thinking anywhere along the lines of how the good players did early on it explains it.

Oh and if the original vectoring didn't allow even half of diddy's combos, he probably looked far less intimidating as a character. I don't know if that was the case or not, since again I didn't hear a peep until 1.0.4.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It looks like Diddy is still the best character in the game but he's actually reasonable now. Like, I honestly think was more OP than Brawl MK was [my personal list of most OP characters in smash history would be: PM 3.0 Mewtwo > pre 1.0.6 Diddy > Smash 64 Pikachu > Melee Fox > Brawl MK] but I don't think they nerfed him the right way. I've always argued that the base knockback of Diddy uair should be INCREASED to make sure it doesn't combo into itself or trap as hard at low %. This is actually a bigger problem now than it was before the patch though overall it's still a clear nerf. The move itself is still kinda broken though because the risk/reward ratio is completely skewed but the effects are appreciated regardless because now you get to actually fight Diddy. Mastermind players like Zero or Rain are still gonna obliterate the competition with the character anyway but now you can at least tell that it actually has something to do with player skill. Same thing with Sonic, really. He's still like 2nd or 3rd best.

Sheik's bair nerf in contrast may be a bigger deal than it seemed at first. Bair was the ultimate cop-out move in situations where fraudulent kills like needle -> bouncing fish no longer worked but percent weren't high enough for fair to finish the stock. Sheik really doesn't have any good option left in such scenarios now so she'll have a really hard time killing people who know how to avoid bouncing fish or vanish. She may become an even bigger victim of the whole rage mechanic than she's been before, especially if DI turns out to become a more prominent factor. I really don't understand what made people think she's #1 befoe the patch, Diddy was clearly better than her.
Luma having 4 HP less now could also be a big deal for Rosie, in a negative way. Luma tends to die really fast now and it will probably hurt her but it's hard to tell by how much. The big winners of the patch - and that's where I think things have gone totally right - are Fox, Pikachu, Wario, Mii Brawler and ZSS. This whole batch of characters was either untouched or changed in ways didn't really harm them at all. Top and High Tier characters are definitely much closer than they've been before. The only thing I don't understand is why they didn't nerf a character as blatantly broken as Yoshi. Oh well, I still think it was a good patch [they also buffed the right characters in the right ways imo].

Before the patch it was like:
Diddy >>>>> Sonic > Sheik / Yoshi >>> the rest

And now it's like:
Diddy > Sonic / Yoshi / Sheik > the rest

imo

 

[Trifroze]

Oh well, I still think it was a good patch [they also buffed the right characters in the right ways imo].

1% more damage for Ganondorf's jab, Samus' ftilt or a couple of Lucina's moves was the right thing to do for said characters?

Buffs like that have no target audience. They're carefully poking at things based on whatever statistics they're using for deciding patch changes, but I really wouldn't go on to say these were good changes when those characters along with many others deserved a lot more.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

[my personal list of most OP characters in smash history would be: PM 3.0 Mewtwo > pre 1.0.6 Diddy > Smash 64 Pikachu > Melee Fox > Brawl MK]

What, no love for Minus1.6 Ness? Or Minus2.X Wolf? Or Minus1.0 Zelda? Or Minus1.5 Shiek? Or Minus2.0 Luigi?

...Man, we ****ed up a lot.

 

[PUK]

I think the nerf hurt Diddy more than you're thinking.
First the hoo haa: it was not his best tool, because DI was able to block it. His best tool was a frame 3 aerial low recovery kill move. Upair was the best kill move of the game, making Diddy always in advantage state. Now it's not a kill move anymore so Diddy can't kill you like he used to be able to.
Fair was one of the best pressure tool, and it still is. But less damage mean it's little less safe.
Overall Diddy struggles to past 90% damage, where Fsmash starts to kill, and struggles more to past 130% where Fair Uair and Bair will reasonably kill.
So currently Diddy needs to use all his options, but it's way easier to deal with 10 good moves than to deal with a winning button.
For exemple a pac Man player won against one of the best french Diddy in 2 games. And the fact that he was able to live as long as he didn't try to challenge a smadh would be impossible pre patch.

 

[Thinkaman]

I have found Villager easy for Mac.

This includes with customs. EBT is essentially irrelevant, and Trip Sapling is surprisingly insignificant to him. Jolt Haymaker and f-smash (which armors the trip initially and then trips to interrupt the endlag) do a pretty decent job of asserting threat around it.

I actively counterpick Mac into Villager at every opportunity.

 

[Cassio]

If we're going to see a couple more patches, small changes here and there and gathering data in between is definitely a good way to approach it. After experiencing my characters either nerfed to irrelevancy or changed gameplay wise on a fundamental level in PM I can definitely get behind this.

 

[Antonykun]

Villager loses pretty hard to Little Mac, Falcon, Sheik, and Sonic without customs on. Little Mac's smashes make recovering hell for Villager unless they're playing dumb and get faked out by riding Lloid, Sheik's Needles apply a lot of pressure unless Lloid is up to eat them (and even then she can just BF over it). Burst Grenade beats Tree and so do basically all of her aerials. Sonic and Falcon don't let her breathe.

You forgot Megaman aka no Villager you are not allowed to do anything here have a lemon

Once people learn that dodging Lloid is better than shielding it since that doesn't allow Villager to just generate another right away the MU gets tough. Little Mac closes distances really quickly and overall has better frame data than Villager. The super armour doesn't help. I mean yeah if Little Mac is just running around throwing out dash attack he's gonna get bopped by slingshots, but I feel walking is his best option in the MU because he gets his FTilt and all of his smashes at a moments notice, along with shield obv and dash for pivot FTilt crossups.


Villager's fastest attacks for getting pressure off are jab (F3) and NAir (earliest is F8), which honestly not that good, especially since they don't have a whole lot of trouble getting back in.

Nair at frame 8? is that because f jumsquat?

 

[Shaya]

1% more damage for Ganondorf's jab, Samus' ftilt or a couple of Lucina's moves was the right thing to do for said characters?

Buffs like that have no target audience. They're carefully poking at things based on whatever statistics they're using for deciding patch changes, but I really wouldn't go on to say these were good changes when those characters along with many others deserved a lot more.

Well we don't know their design intentions at all, Sakurai may legitimately think "this character is going to be better overall than this one" and act accordingly.
If Dancing Blade got fixed they probably (in some ways smartly, if they're doing another patch) chose to be safer on buffing her (and Marth) further.
And on Lucina, buffing her while not necessarily enough to bring her from the depths was possibly just to align her closer to Marth, who was universally more worthwhile by a long shot, those small numbers added to some of her staple moves will definitely bring that gap closer, yet they have to be careful they don't invalidate Marth in the process; the whole trap the designers face with an 'easier' clone of someone. To me she's still terribly gimped by the lack of diversity in her actions, sour spots/sweetspots are very important to every character; having none really limits her depth.

And just from the years of League experience, 1% differences mean A LOT.
(not 1% damage increase, as in the "1% better than before"). That 1% better in one way can be impacting things innumerable amount of times in just a single match. Anecdotes would be the "5 extra knockback" being enough to kill only a few percent earlier, but that could be the difference between a match or set lost; and this is just one single interaction out of the rest that could suddenly turn from losing, drawing or winning to otherwise. Yet that's practically the effect a 0.5% damage increase has, it isn't superfluous.

 

[Nobie]

I have found Villager easy for Mac.

This includes with customs. EBT is essentially irrelevant, and Trip Sapling is surprisingly insignificant to him. Jolt Haymaker and f-smash (which armors the trip initially and then trips to interrupt the endlag) do a pretty decent job of asserting threat around it.

I actively counterpick Mac into Villager at every opportunity.

That makes a Customs Villager-Mac team sound horrifying

 

[Thinkaman]

That makes a Customs Villager-Mac team sound horrifying

The good news is, no Pocket shenaniganery.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So Dark Fists. I think I main Ganon now. Customs Ganon is the most fun you'll have with Smash 4 ever. EVER. Can we talk about his matchups? Like how it basically doesn't matter unless you shut him out completely because with like 3 reads he murders you?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So Dark Fists. I think I main Ganon now. Customs Ganon is the most fun you'll have with Smash 4 ever. EVER. Can we talk about his matchups? Like how it basically doesn't matter unless you shut him out completely because with like 3 reads he murders you?

Custom Villager is really annoying when he camps behind Trip sapling given Ganon's attacks extent his hurtboxes.

Also, custom Ganon ditto matchup is honestly more boring, when Ganondorf trivializes his own edgeguarding on himself with WDK.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja deserves an honourable mention as a winner of this patch. Sheik, Diddy and Sonic were all nerfed in ways that really benefit him and were 3 of his 4 worst MUs (his worst MU now being Fox). Greninja was actually one of the biggest victims of Hoo Hah because of his weight + fall speed combination and that's now much less of an issue.

I'm not going to start crying about how Greninja's being slept on and he's way better than he seems or whatever but I feel it's important to point out that he, moreso than the characters he usually gets grouped with in terms of viability, has benefited a lot from the nerfs handed out to other characters in this patch. Unlike many of the characters around him he doesn't have a bad MU with Rosalina, Yoshi or Pikachu that didn't improve with the patch.

Put it this way; Greninja's biggest problem is dealing with rushdown from characters who can match his mobility. The patch hit almost every character who satisfies this criteria.

It looks like Diddy is still the best character in the game but he's actually reasonable now. Like, I honestly think was more OP than Brawl MK was [my personal list of most OP characters in smash history would be: PM 3.0 Mewtwo > pre 1.0.6 Diddy > Smash 64 Pikachu > Melee Fox > Brawl MK]

Could you elaborate on why MK is so far down your list of OP characters? Or more specifically why you think Smash 4 Diddy was more OP than MK?

 

[Antonykun]

pretty much if you weren't nerfed you won in the patch (Diddy Sheik and Sonic will still make your life hell)

 

[bc1910]

pretty much if you weren't nerfed you won in the patch (Diddy Sheik and Sonic will still make your life hell)

Kind of, but if you had a bad MU with Rosalina, Pikachu, Zero Suit and other high/top tiers the patch won't have helped you.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So Dark Fists. I think I main Ganon now. Customs Ganon is the most fun you'll have with Smash 4 ever. EVER. Can we talk about his matchups? Like how it basically doesn't matter unless you shut him out completely because with like 3 reads he murders you?

I've always thought that regardless of how good or bad Ganondorf actually ends up being, his matchups all require a giant footnote that says "don't **** up or you're dead anyway."

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Something I found last night while experimenting with Wario's weird ability to be able to turn his Bike around at will (unfortunately, the MASTER OF MAGNET powers didn't work out as useful).

In Brawl, whenever you press a button to jump off the Bike, you no longer have a hitbox on you and are completely vulnerable until the animation is over. In Smash 4, this animation is the same, but you still have full hitbox power for the fifteen frames before Wario is clearly off the Bike.

Combined with the fact that there is a lingering hitbox on the Bike after you jump off, this is safer than I ever previously thought possible. On top of being able to instantly create second hitboxes with the wheelie or skidding turnaround, Gheb was right--This move is mega-dumb.

Also, when you're getting off the Bike, Wario cannot crash into the side of the stage; instead, the Bike just floats next to it. This means that running off the ledge, doing Forward-B, and immediately jumping off creates a ~15-frame strong stage spiking hit immediately above the ledge that synergizes well with Waft and divebomb D-Air (since pulling out the Bike takes something like 20 frames). Yet another powerful edgeguard option for this guy, and this one's disjointed. I didn't test a bunch of characters because it's hard to create that scenario with one person playing two characters, but it seems to beat Pac-Man and Captain Falcon's Up-Bs, at least. I'll make a more comprehensive list in the future.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I have found Villager easy for Mac.

This includes with customs. EBT is essentially irrelevant, and Trip Sapling is surprisingly insignificant to him. Jolt Haymaker and f-smash (which armors the trip initially and then trips to interrupt the endlag) do a pretty decent job of asserting threat around it.

I actively counterpick Mac into Villager at every opportunity.

I've noticed this too; even with customs Villager still has trouble with Little Mac. The fact that he can still just armour his way through Counter Sapling and even Pushi Lloid (assuming FSmash hasn't been staled <12%) is the main reason.

I don't thing Extreme Balloons are irrelevant though. Without them he can just use DSmash to cut through the stage and nail Villager's balloons or FSmash to catch them if they try to set up Lloid, but now he has to watch for explosions, since the armour wears off before the explosions end.

You forgot Megaman aka no Villager you are not allowed to do anything here have a lemon

Nair at frame 8? is that because f jumsquat?

Yep, you're right, totally forgot Super Fighting Robot. Villager cant deal with all of those projectiles, and the fact that Metal Blade+Leaf Shield (which isn't as unviable now since it throws faster apparently) go through trees and Crash Bomber's explosion hits behind it really hurts. "Tree camping" is really hard to do in this MU because of that unless you push out a Lloid to eat CB then pocket the oncoming Blade, but that's dumb since the tree is supposed to be taking pressure off of you, not the other way around. That and by the time you're done with the movements of dealing with CB+MB Mega Man has already got another projectile coming your way along with lemon pressure. And if he does MB first CB second that's suboptimal for you frame-wise since you'll be forced to either shield, Pocket, or spotdodge (or maybe even challenge?!) the Blade, probably leaving you at a frame disadvantage for dealing with CB.

Yeah F8 because 5F jumpsquat and it hits on F3.

 

[Antonykun]

I've noticed this too; even with customs Villager still has trouble with Little Mac. The fact that he can still just armour his way through Counter Sapling and even Pushi Lloid (assuming FSmash hasn't been staled <12%) is the main reason.

I don't thing Extreme Balloons are irrelevant though. Without them he can just use DSmash to cut through the stage and nail Villager's balloons or FSmash to catch them if they try to set up Lloid, but now he has to watch for explosions, since the armour wears off before the explosions end.


Yep, you're right, totally forgot Super Fighting Robot. Villager cant deal with all of those projectiles, and the fact that Metal Blade goes through trees and Crash Bomber's explosion hits behind it really hurts. "Tree camping" is really hard to do in this MU hecause of that unless you push out a Lloid to eat CB then pocket the oncoming Blade, but that's dumb since the tree is supposed to be taking pressure off of you, not the other way around. That and by the time you're done with the movements of dealing with CB+MB Mega Man has already got another projectile coming your way along with lemon pressure.

Yeah F8 because 5F jumpsquat and it hits on F3.

Oh yeah customs talk, Pushy Lloyd eats all of Megaman's projectiles!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't understand why Pushy Lloid isn't the standard; wouldn't Villager want it to explode earlier so he can use another one faster?

 

[Trifroze]

Well we don't know their design intentions at all, Sakurai may legitimately think "this character is going to be better overall than this one" and act accordingly.
If Dancing Blade got fixed they probably (in some ways smartly, if they're doing another patch) chose to be safer on buffing her (and Marth) further.
And on Lucina, buffing her while not necessarily enough to bring her from the depths was possibly just to align her closer to Marth, who was universally more worthwhile by a long shot, those small numbers added to some of her staple moves will definitely bring that gap closer, yet they have to be careful they don't invalidate Marth in the process; the whole trap the designers face with an 'easier' clone of someone. To me she's still terribly gimped by the lack of diversity in her actions, sour spots/sweetspots are very important to every character; having none really limits her depth.

And just from the years of League experience, 1% differences mean A LOT.
(not 1% damage increase, as in the "1% better than before"). That 1% better in one way can be impacting things innumerable amount of times in just a single match. Anecdotes would be the "5 extra knockback" being enough to kill only a few percent earlier, but that could be the difference between a match or set lost; and this is just one single interaction out of the rest that could suddenly turn from losing, drawing or winning to otherwise. Yet that's practically the effect a 0.5% damage increase has, it isn't superfluous.

A damage increase of 1% in a single move out of a characters kit is approximately a 1% divided by what, 22 moves, increase in the character's overall damage output assuming the move being buffed is average in its usage in relation to the rest of the respective character's kit. If every move of a certain character was buffed by 1% in damage, I agree that'd be a considerable buff, something that Shulk sort of experienced in the previous patch.

However we are talking about Smash 4 characters from a competitive perspective and Sakurai's mindset behind the balance patch (I'd prefer it called character finetuning at this point, bar Diddy, Sheik and Sonic) is irrelevant in this context. Hence I would refrain from calling the buffs "right" when we can see, with clarity, that characters such as Ganondorf needed much more and much different buffs to not be completely shut down in many high level scenarios, whether his jab does 1% or 5% more. Take 1 or 2 frames off of his jab startup and we might have a bigger deal, but I understand that starts to interfere with the fundamental idea of the character being slow but powerful. Although, I don't expect Sakurai or the rest of the team to more than glance at the competitive scene when adjusting their changes.

 

[Antonykun]

I don't understand why Pushy Lloid isn't the standard; wouldn't Villager want it to explode earlier so he can use another one faster?

Actually Regular Lloyd is the one who explodes earlier as it explodes on contact with a hitbox/ non transcendent projectile
Pushy Lloyd does not have this property and usually detonates slower.

This lack of property allows Pushy Lloyd to plow throw most projectiles that would overwhelm Villager Like Megaman's kit

 

[Teshie U]

Pushy Lloyd definitely evens out the on stage game in the matchup some, but don't forget that you should be CATCHING metal blade, not pocketing it. If customs are off, you need to catch the blade, pocket the crash bomb and pray about the pellets i guess. If they are on, Pushy Lloyd deals nicely with his projectiles, but he gets skull barrier. If he has a metal blade in hand and puts up skull barrier, you won't be able to pocket the reflected items.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was under the impression that the best way to deal with Lloid for most characters was to avoid it so that Villager can't pull another one out until the full animation is over.

I get that Villager has a hard time with Mega Man, regardless, but I mean for matchups in general.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I don't understand why Pushy Lloid isn't the standard; wouldn't Villager want it to explode earlier so he can use another one faster?

Pushy Lloid has a lot of advantages over standard; it isn't exploded in one hit by nearly everything, it doesn't explode on shields (meaning it can actually do MORE net shield damage than standard), it selfdestructs sooner so it opens up for you quicker, and it can sometimes ctch spotdodges. I personally run 1322 because I prefer it over standard, but the shorter range means it doesn't lend itself to spacing/camping as well. That and the lower damage are probably the main reasons some people prefer standard.

Edit:

Actually Regular Lloyd is the one who explodes earlier as it explodes on contact with a hitbox/ non transcendent projectile
Pushy Lloyd does not have this property and usually detonates slower.

This lack of property allows Pushy Lloyd to plow throw most projectiles that would overwhelm Villager Like Megaman's kit

I was under the impression that the best way to deal with Lloid for most characters was to avoid it so that Villager can't pull another one out until the full animation is over.

I get that Villager has a hard time with Mega Man, regardless, but I mean for matchups in general.

Like I said earlier, once people realise that dodging Lloid is a bazillion times better than shielding it, you run into problems and Pushy becomes better.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah F8 because 5F jumpsquat and it hits on F3.

Would you happen to know where I could find the jumpsquat frame data for other characters?

 

[Antonykun]

well my big thing for Pushy Lloyd is that Villager now has a shield against MM's projectiles that allows her to gain some stage control as Villager really can't answer to MM's projectiles due to her slow movement.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Would you happen to know where I could find the jumpsquat frame data for other characters?

Afaik there isnt a comprehensive list for Smash 4 so each character has to be mined manually. I think Reflex noted that most characters have 5F jumpsquats like in Brawl, which holds true for Villager and Mewtwo.

An "easy" way to test this if you don't have recording equipment but have a Wii U and 2 controllers is finding out what frame your character's airdodge intan kicks in by comparing it against other attacks with known hit-on frames, then going into training, setting speed to 1/4 Hold L, inputting a jump with your character and an attack with another on the same frame (this is ensured by inputting the actions while time is stopped then holding the actions while you press L), then inputting airdodge during jumpsquat.

Ex. Mewtwo's airdodge is F2. He gets hit by Lucario's F6 jab but airdodges Bowser's F7 jab, meaning his jumpsquat is 5F.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Everyone more or less has 5-8 frames for jump squat.

I still think Diddy would have been far better reigned in had his jump squat frames been increased. Keep the absurd Fair and F3 Uair shenanigans, but now he's gotta take forever to jump and throw those moves out in the first place. Kills Hoo-hah and Bair chains and instant Fair walling in a single frame edit.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Custom Villager is really annoying when he camps behind Trip sapling given Ganon's attacks extent his hurtboxes.

Also, custom Ganon ditto matchup is honestly more boring, when Ganondorf trivializes his own edgeguarding on himself with WDK.

I agree that Custom Villager is the hardest MU for Dorf, though it's only 40:60 or so against, which is much better than what Ganon had to deal with before. Most other MUs feel either like slight disadvantages or even, so Ganon does have the tools with customs to hold his own against anyone, even if he doesn't beat the top characters.