Character Competitive Impressions

[Lavani]

What character has the best hitboxes combined with Frame Data?

Low startups, low end lag, autocancels bested only by Sheik's fair, and good hitboxes to top it all off (moves like fair even have disjoint past his already-outstretched legs!)

Particularly I'd point to fair, uair, and dtilt.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Low startups, low end lag, autocancels bested only by Sheik's fair, and good hitboxes to top it all off (moves like fair even have disjoint past his already-outstretched legs!)

Particularly I'd point to fair, uair, and dtilt.

Why did they think making the hitbox get bigger over time was a good idea? What could have possessed them into thinking this was okay?

 

[Shaya]

It's the same business a lot of character's back airs get, just someone thought it was a good idea to have it on Diddy's fair.

Stuff like Diddy's fair makes so little sense to me though.
It was already considered the best or second best forward air in Brawl (a contest between Marth/Diddy and everyone else paled in comparison really).
So they buffed it's start up, hit box size/range, auto cancel/landing lag, and originally kept it's damage high as well.

Basically the EXACT opposing 'buffs' were applied to Marth's fair, qq.

 

[Ffamran]

Why did they think making the hitbox get bigger over time was a good idea? What could have possessed them into thinking this was okay?

I feel like the devs pick a series of characters to break, release the game, and then laugh at us. I mean, who thought 64 Kirby and Brawl Snake's Utilt were good ideas?

Anyway, what is the Pikachu vs. Luigi MU? Seagull said that Pikachu can't really do much against Luigi because of Luigi's fast and well-ranged attacks. Ditto this on Luigi vs. Sheik and Luigi vs. Marth.

 

[Lavani]

Why did they think making the hitbox get bigger over time was a good idea? What could have possessed them into thinking this was okay?

I think that got patched in 1.0.6, thankfully. Or I'm just bad, but I can't replicate this gif now:

Spoiler

MasterCore update when? ;;

 

[David Viran]

I think that got patched in 1.0.6, thankfully. Or I'm just bad, but I can't replicate this gif now:

Spoiler

MasterCore update when? ;;

I heard that his fair extends his hurt box now.

 

[Blobface]

Gimr is actually going toe-to-toe with Boss right now. Does G&W just go even with Luigi or is he better than we thought?
Edit: Gimr tried, but he got bopped in the end.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I think that got patched in 1.0.6, thankfully. Or I'm just bad, but I can't replicate this gif now:

Spoiler

MasterCore update when? ;;

I remember when you posted that gif, I felt physically ill afterwards.

 

[Djent]

It's not just GimR, it's also Songun. I think "glass cannon" (which is a stupidly overused phrase) actually does pertain to this character. He has guaranteed setups into UAir (can you really suck if you've got these?) and a few moves with ridiculous properties. I don't think he's truly "good," but he could end up being middle-of-the-pack, especially since he does benefit somewhat from customs.

 

[Shaya]

My boy Tant bringing out the Wiifit outta no where and showing what a real off stage game looks like.

 

[Blobface]

It's not just GimR, it's also Songun. I think "glass cannon" (which is a stupidly overused phrase) actually does pertain to this character. He has guaranteed setups into UAir (can you really suck if you've got these?) and a few moves with ridiculous properties. I don't think he's truly "good," but he could end up being middle-of-the-pack, especially since he does benefit somewhat from customs.

Speaking of which, does anyone happen to know why S@X isn't running customs all of a sudden?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

My boy Tant bringing out the Wiifit outta no where and showing what a real off stage game looks like.

What, Tant plays WFT? This is news to me.

 

[Ffamran]

My boy Tant bringing out the Wiifit outta no where and showing what a real off stage game looks like.

Her hips don't lie, man. Her hips do not lie.

So, Wii Fit Trainer's off stage game. Customs or no, challenging WFT off stage without a clear idea of what she is probably a terrible idea. At that point, her hitboxes don't really suffer, 2 projectiles with one being able to hit angles most characters dream of, she has 2 spikes?, and her recovery is safe and made safer with Jumbo Hoops. Oh, and her Bair is among the fastest at frame 4 tied with Falco, Sheik, and Mega Man.

Speaking of which, does anyone happen to know why S@X isn't running customs all of a sudden?

Don't they alternate between customs and default?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Her hips don't lie, man. Her hips do not lie.

So, Wii Fit Trainer's off stage game. Customs or no, challenging WFT off stage without a clear idea of what she is probably a terrible idea. At that point, her hitboxes don't really suffer, 2 projectiles with one being able to hit angles most characters dream of, she has 2 spikes?, and her recovery is safe and made safer with Jumbo Hoops. Oh, and her Bair is among the fastest at frame 4 tied with Falco, Sheik, and Mega Man.


Don't they alternate between customs and default?

3 spikes, but FAir's isn't very powerful.

Also BAir is fast but its strong hit only lasts 1F and is basically right up close to her butt. NAir and FAir are very good though, and Header's spike should be respected since it trades very easily.

Honestly the only WFT has in the air is that she has a hard time covering the 6:00 and 4/5:00 positions. Her DAir is REALLY slow with terrible duration for the startup (hits on F20 and is only active 5F) and the spiking hit only lasts 1F, after which it loses 6% damage and actually launches people up. Which might be good for stage spikes, but honestly Super Hoops are better for that. And I think Header's headbutt doesn't hit until like F15 at the earliest? So she gets juggled pretty easily and can't safely recover neither high nor low. Her good air speed sort of mitigates this tho, so she can weave around to let NAir catch people.

 

[Blobface]

Don't they alternate between customs and default?

Huh, I didn't know this.
Ah well, while I'd prefer all on, I suppose that with customs being controversial like they are, it's better to alternate than to dedicate to one set.

Also, I still don't get why everyone thinks shields regenerate quickly in this game. It's 3.8 hp regenerated per second (50 max, shield is directly damaged by attacks + bonus shield damage), which means replenishing just 20 hp is 5 seconds of regeneration, and it can add up.

 

[Asdioh]

Character competitive impressions: after seeing ZeRo's Diddy this weekend, I think he's probably still the best character in the game. In my eyes, he was best last patch (yes, better than Sheik) and he still is this patch. Despite seeing a lot of "Sheik is theoretically the best" I've just never seen it in practice, while with Diddy it was always obvious.

Since we were just talking about Diddy's Fair, I was hoping the move would get nerfed in this patch, but not in the way it was. It autocanceled way too easily (you can't mess up the autocancel if you use it immediately after a shorthop) and had a disjoint at the end. If that disjoint is now gone, then that's cool, that's part of the change I was hoping for. Actually, if we're still waiting on data dumps, one thing you can try to test it out is vs Kirby's Bair. Both moves come out on Frame 6. When I tested previously in 1/4 Press L Training Mode, if both characters attack each other with Bair/Fair at the same time, while right next to each other, they'll trade hits. As you widen the gap, eventually Diddy will hit Kirby, without getting hit himself, because of the disjoint. If that disjoint is gone, then they should always trade hits, regardless of distance. Easiest way to test that out that I can think of, I can't do it right now though if anyone else wants to try

Anyway, Diddy still has arguably the best Dtilt in the game, Upair is still frame 3, and while it's weaker, it's still extremely safe, combos very easily, and has a nonsensical hitbox (unless they fixed that in the patch too?) He has less rewards off grabs than someone like Luigi, but he has an easier time getting grabs than possibly any character in the game, due to his good ground speed, and constant threat of bananas/monkey flip, giving him frequent mixup options. Dthrow->aerial still works at most % and racks up damage quickly, and Upthrow->aerial seems to be as good as Dthrow ever was, possibly even better, thanks to it's "nerf?"

Basically, Diddy just has a lot of strong options at any given moment. Thanks to his overall good mobility, frame, and hitbox specs, I just see him being the best. The ability to choose whether your Monkey Flip is default length, or Smash length, and then the ability to completely reverse that momentum with Popgun cancel, is huge. You saw saw ZeRo do it a lot vs Nairo this weekend, and while Nairo was able to read the reversal a couple times and get a punish, it's still literally a guess, and if you guess wrong, then Diddy just got to get some distance, where he can set up his banana peel (one of the best projectiles in the game, I forgot to mention) or start trying for grabs, or spacing with Dtilt/Fair, etc. There are other characters with nice mobility options like that too, but Diddy seems to have the best reward ratio to me. Watching ZeRo playing made it look like Diddy was a Melee character, while everyone else was a Brawl character, yknow?

Other characters... I'm wondering if Sheik will ever go down from being perceived as top 3, especially after the patch. Admittedly she's extremely good in neutral, but I feel like other characters have a significantly easier time netting KOs, while only having marginally worse neutrals. Her damage per hit is pretty bad.

Mii Brawler was shown a lot this weekend, and yeah it's good, like everyone's known for a while. Nothing seemed too overwhelming though, besides Helicopter Kick having a low risk/high reward ratio, making it fairly spammable. Other than that, and the mobility from its DownB ZSS thing, Brawler seemed like just a standard "good" character.


Um... other characters exist, but that's most of what I saw this weekend, and I haven't been watching/playing much lately, plan to do more from now on though. I still don't know how big the changes are to some characters, like Sonic and stuff. Kirby got some small buffs, but they don't really change much, he's just marginally better. I think in a customs metagame, he's mid tierish. I still don't think he can compete with Diddy at higher levels of play, even with Diddy nerfs/Kirby buffs, and that makes me sad because he's still the most common tournament character! I think Kirby can put up a reasonable fight against most of the other top tournament picks, especially Falcon/ZSS/Sheik. I still think Yoshi's his worst matchup. I think he probably beats Mewtwo, but it's too soon to say for sure. I just know that fully charged Shadow Ball momentum pushing you into Mewtwo for a Bair is fun.

While I was showering I was thinking about "hitbox density"

butt

Oh my!

 

[Gunla]

Huh, I didn't know this.
Ah well, while I'd prefer all on, I suppose that with customs being controversial like they are, it's better to alternate than to dedicate to one set.

Also, I still don't get why everyone thinks shields regenerate quickly in this game. It's 3.8 hp regenerated per second (50 max, shield is directly damaged by attacks + bonus shield damage), which means replenishing just 20 hp is 5 seconds of regeneration, and it can add up.

I honestly do like that S@X's alternation is a thing. It creates biweekly customs on and off (and for some players, it doesn't matter as much, so it's weeklies) for people who prefer either. It also strengthens the fact that the two metas cannot be exactly approached the same.

It definitely helps that customs are very easy to toggle, and not a hassle; say a tournament is running two different tournies, customs on and off. The fact that a setup can convert with a single button press is great.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Don't forget not having to commit to either the kick or the grab on flip. That alone is just a really powerful tool imo. That and the kick's damage lets it either clank with or flat out beat a lot of stuff, so you can't safely shield or challenge the move.

I dunno, that level of versatility all in just one move really bugs me. And I still don't think the nerfs were handled correctly. Lower damage/KB just means his throws and aerials combo or at least trap more efficiently. Increasing startup on aerials and endlag on throws probably would have been a more sensible nerf (which was the case with Rosalina - I always said that increasing Luma's respawn time was dumb and its HP should just be nerfed, and six patches later it's finally happened).

 

[Shaya]

I currently probably think Diddy still has the safest claim for first, it's just no longer the EXTREME difference that it was before.
Despite what anyone argues[d], Up Throw Up Air and having dthrow fair/uair into insurmountable stage position until the aforementioned comes along BROKE him and was extremely toxic to game play. It made the weight of fighting Diddy inherently unfair for every character in the cast. I legitimately felt the gap between Brawl MK and others (assuming the rulesets we saw) was much less than Diddy and everyone else prior to this patch.

It's not like Diddy was culled. Culling him would've been changing his auto cancels, slowing down his frame data with modifiers, reducing hitbox sizes, more landing lag. Seemingly none of this was touched, still not 100% certain on Diddy's fair either but as I claimed after the patch, if that's unchanged in terms of hitboxes he would be the best character in the game still.
Damage changes really only repositioned him towards a fairer play style, but all of his great assets that made the issues disgusting weren't really touched. We're now just dealing with the best "design" in the game with fairer numbers, not a gutted and useless character.

 

[Asdioh]

It seems like most characters have reasonably good ways to kill Luma in literally one hit, so I think the first nerf actually hurt her more heheh. I haven't played many Rosalinas lately, but it's been a while since I've seen a Luma die from HP rather than being knocked offstage.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

True, but the fact that could eat stuff like Charge Shots and Bowser's FSmash twice and still hang around if it didn't get knocked offstage seemed unfair imo

Alternatively they could have nerfed it to a flat 50% instead to also force players to keep their moves fresh if they wanted to get rid of Luma but shrug, 47% was probably done to account for staling

OR they could have changed it so attacks don't stale when they hit Luma.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Indigo Jeans Let's face it man, do you think Sakurai would bother to change the mechanics of a character? The easy way out is the only way out.

Not like I have an opinion though. I love Rosalina in MK8 but I don't like her at all this game, so as long as Luma is nerfed I am happy. :3

 

[Indigo Jeans]

@ Indigo Jeans Let's face it man, do you think Sakurai would bother to change the mechanics of a character? The easy way out is the only way out.

WELL he did pretty much exactly that to Pac-Man's Hydrant. It used to not account for staling at all and just always take the fresh damage from moves when it was hit, but after a patch it changed to account for staling.

 

[Shaya]

That would be weird, would that mean attacking statues on castle siege wouldn't decay anymore either?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Attacking Villager's Trees or Lloids doesn't cause moves to stale. Prob same deal with Balloons, I'll check when I get home.

 

[Blobface]

Is Boss going to Evo? It seems half of his grand finals matches he completely erases the other person and the other half he just plain wins.

Something I feel isn't done enough is using the threat of shield breaks to apply shield pressure, especially when it comes to heavies who can break a full shield in 2-3 hits within 10 seconds. Like, instead of using grab to beat shield, use a smash attack (maybe even charge it) to get tons of shield damage. Not to say it's superior to grabs, but it could be good as a mixup, especially in situations where a grab doesn't net much reward.

Against high level players, you likely won't get actual shieldbreaks since they'll be smart enough to just drop their shield and take the hit, but a free hit is still a free hit. Maybe it's just me seeing the game through Ganon Glasses [TM] since Ganon's U-smash is amazing at this tactic, but I really feel Heavies should be using their shield damage to their advantage.

 

[Balgorxz]

I'm worried for diddy, he is still top3 easily and one of the best character and a lot of people already dropped him.
since most of them didn't see it as a character but a ticket to winning, makes me remember the poll where they asked which character are you hyped for smash4 and diddy had 0 votes.

I'm just gonna wait comfy in my bed when zero wins evo with diddy like nothing.

 

[Teshie U]

The true Diddy players will stick with him.

The frauds will move on to the next flavor of the month cheese (especially in customs).

Thats exactly what a good nerf should do.

Ideally we should all be able to play the characters we love without worrying about them being overpowered or underpowered.

At the very least I can hope all characters have at least 1 top tier matchup they do well in.


Speaking of which, what does everyone think of Mewtwo vs Rosalina. I'm pretty sure Mewtwo loses to all the rushdown top tiers with fast attacks and safer frame data, but Rosalina relies on much of the same stuff Mewtwo does and has a moveset a little on the slow side.

 

[RonNewcomb]

It would be neat if we could find a discrete way to measure hitboxes not only against their frames but against their size as well. Like, this hitbox exerts this much raw knockback under these conditions on this much area over this much time.

Mathematically measuring stuff like that really interests me. We'd want to account for "smearing" the hitbox when the character is moving at speed; that's what makes DACUS such a great AT. And we'd also want to use a hitbox-to-hurtbox ratio, else the heavies are going to look artificially fantastic. And we'd want to account for directionality as well: hitbox size alone doesn't say if or where a character has a blind spot.
Although the phrase "over this much time" immediately reminded me of doing integrals in calculus. Not a fun endeavour.

 

[Yonder]

Is Boss going to Evo? It seems half of his grand finals matches he completely erases the other person and the other half he just plain wins.

Something I feel isn't done enough is using the threat of shield breaks to apply shield pressure, especially when it comes to heavies who can break a full shield in 2-3 hits within 10 seconds. Like, instead of using grab to beat shield, use a smash attack (maybe even charge it) to get tons of shield damage. Not to say it's superior to grabs, but it could be good as a mixup, especially in situations where a grab doesn't net much reward.

Against high level players, you likely won't get actual shieldbreaks since they'll be smart enough to just drop their shield and take the hit, but a free hit is still a free hit. Maybe it's just me seeing the game through Ganon Glasses [TM] since Ganon's U-smash is amazing at this tactic, but I really feel Heavies should be using their shield damage to their advantage.

I hear Boss got destroyed by Amsa using Greninja during APEX so unless Boss has improved more since then...the competition is a lot more stiff when the biggest players are about, Boss could possibly get top 16 but I don't see more than that.

Game and Watch is an odd character to me, he seems to be the master of gimmick via his bucket, hammer, and D throw [100% guaranteed 1HKO from D throw to bucket at 0% with a fully filled, Aura induced, aura sphere bucket from Lucario is cool. Also, D throw to 9 from 0 to 34% right away too.] All he needs is more kill power and maybe a slightly better projectile by reducing start up and end lag [it's better than any other game though]. Still amazing edgeguarder though, and his power trampoline custom may help with kills. I've said before a really good low tier, I know there's something...somewhere with him. Hope GIMR finds it, cause I dropped G Dub from Brawl cause I couldn't adapt :/.

 

[thehard]

Xanadu is awesome, but I think some people see it as the "premier Smash 4 scene" simply because of the slick production and funny commentary for what's really just a glorified weekly. Look at APEX '15 results, very little, if any, MD/VA rep at the top. Boss, the Joes, GimR n' the boyz are all great but I think on a national scale other regions have them beat.

 

[Shaya]

Boss doesn't necessarily have the same "win ethic" as say some of the top players. He's never really been a consistent threat (although he's always been able to have a break out result), but I assume he doesn't care too much. He's playing for fun and he happens to be really good on top of his favourite character(s) actually being very strong in Smash4.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Xanadu is awesome, but I think some people see it as the "premier Smash 4 scene" simply because of the slick production and funny commentary for what's really just a glorified weekly. Look at APEX '15 results, very little, if any, MD/VA rep at the top. Boss, the Joes, GimR n' the boyz are all great but I think on a national scale other regions have them beat.

I've been thinking that MD/VA is a bit behind other regions. Their top player are a luigi peach sonic and DK. That's not to say that it's bad but the lack of a strong diddy or Shiek hurts them a lot.

 

[Firefoxx]

Xanadu is awesome, but I think some people see it as the "premier Smash 4 scene" simply because of the slick production and funny commentary for what's really just a glorified weekly. Look at APEX '15 results, very little, if any, MD/VA rep at the top. Boss, the Joes, GimR n' the boyz are all great but I think on a national scale other regions have them beat.

Yeah, when EE is commentating a bigger tournament with a large MD/VA presence he will often talk about how much that region underwhelms at such events. Hell, even when NY/Long Island people make a trip down to Xanadu the running joke is that they came to take MD/VA's money. And then they do. I was glad to see Boss using Mario in a recent Xanadu, I hope it means he's taking things a little more seriously cause he's a legitimately amazing talent

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Who do villager, mega man and pac man lose to and win against? I have far less experience with these characters than anyone else.

 

[Djent]

I was about to say JMiller is a better candidate to place high @ EVO based on his APEX performance, but then I realized he lost to the same two people as Boss did.

lol...

 

[Conda]

Xanadu is awesome, but I think some people see it as the "premier Smash 4 scene" simply because of the slick production and funny commentary for what's really just a glorified weekly. Look at APEX '15 results, very little, if any, MD/VA rep at the top. Boss, the Joes, GimR n' the boyz are all great but I think on a national scale other regions have them beat.

Good points, important to remember that what's streamed (TL, VGBC, CT, MVG, RHS, etc) isn't indicative of what the complete competitive Smash 4 scene is.

 

[Thinkaman]

Please sir. If we could use that move like any other 4 framer should (i.e. not giving a ****) then I'd accept your linear schema.
Not only does it require the right position for people to not fall out (i.e. right in front of her basically) if she ever trades she's taking RCO lag enough for a charged smash attack.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that Boost Kick as a whole is a broken move, or that a linear KO-range/speed metric is the be-all-end-all criteria. The subject was just moves/hitboxes across the cast that kill abnormally early, which Boost Kick is totes. Obviously, this comes at a few costs...

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Villager loses pretty hard to Little Mac, Falcon, Sheik, and Sonic without customs on. Little Mac's smashes make recovering hell for Villager unless they're playing dumb and get faked out by riding Lloid, Sheik's Needles apply a lot of pressure unless Lloid is up to eat them (and even then she can just BF over it). Burst Grenade beats Tree and so do basically all of her aerials. Sonic and Falcon don't let her breathe.

 

[dean.]

Villager loses pretty hard to Little Mac

Wow, didn't expect that. The best player in our region mains Little Mac exclusively and the only player he has a losing record against (and is considering a secondary for) uses Villager.