Character Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

Doesn't Shiek just destroy Lucario in the neutral though?

From that match that was posted earlier on this page, it seems like that doesn't come into play as much when lucario can use his command grab thing to kill below 100%.

I mean, Lucario lost most of the neutral but was able to trade/punish with AS until he could kill really early.

Its an interesting idea, but I still worry it would face problems from needle camping.

 

[Cassio]

Kind of random, but I decided to make a list of BS kill moves in the game as judged by pika and his inclination to die early to BS. Differentiating this from something like sheik's up-b which moreso requires a set-up and read rather then randomly tossing it out (though those listed could also have a set-up). Customs off because I dont know customs well enough. Also ordered from most frustrating to less frustrating.

Edit: What makes it BS is that its not something you can always predict or prepare for if tossed out randomly. In a perfect world you would never get hit by these moves in such situations but alas...

: FSMASH BS
: EVERYTHING
: EVERYTHING
: Waft BS
: Up B BS
: Side B BS
: Side B BS
: Side B BS
: (grab) Bthrow BS
: Up B BS
: Counter BS
: Everything Kindofnotreally
: Everything kindofnotreally
: Bthrow BS; Usmash kindanotreally


: Probably Something
: Probably something
: Maybe something?
: Upair BS

They Cool:

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There's only a few really unwinnable matchups in this game.

I think time will show us that there's more than just "a few" unwinnable matchups.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think time will show us that there's more than just "a few" unwinnable matchups.

Balance patches seem to be in favor of keeping things under control in this regard.

 

[Asdioh]

What are some of the unwinnable matchups so far then?

 

[Cassio]

Yeah when I think of unwinnable MUs its usually the result of some exploit like chaingrabs, so I think we probably wont see any.

 

[Antonykun]

@ Cassio F-smash isn't BS?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think time will show us that there's more than just "a few" unwinnable matchups.

Most things not winnable to my recollection basically involve Rosalina, Little Mac, Bowser, and King DeDeDe. Rosalina by design creates a lot of unwinnable matchups, while Little Mac, Bowser, and DDD have some pretty hopeless design flaws in 1v1s. The tier gaps in this game mostly revolve around the quantity of favorable versus unfavorable matchups in this game, for the most part.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Against FALCON, I don't want to jump period if I don't have to, plus Falcon's grab reward and traps are by far a lot better than Shulk's. Against Speed Shulk, I'm not afraid of throwing out moves to stop him from moving. His only "strong" offense is grab, when the rest of his moves are still rather slow. Furthermore when most of Shulk's aerials are like 14+ frame startup and 20+ frames landing lag (aside from N-air), Shulk can't air trap like Falcon can to discourage people from jumping out of his throw setups and going for ledge resets. The comparison isn't even close.

Ike's dashgrab while limited by his slower run speed still has very good range, and is highly effective out of shield and in midrange. Furthermore, empty hops from Ike are more threatening due to faster aerials. If it's harder to get a grab as Ike, it's not really by a whole lot, but his reward out of grab is simultaneously both better and more consistent than Shulk's. Land traps AND combos are better.

While it's true that Shulk can edgeguard fairly deep with Monado jump, this is somewhat overhyped. Being able to edgeguard deep doesn't change a lot of matchups when you can simply midair jump and airdodge against Shulk's edgeguards and come out safe given his air traps are horrible. Ike has the same problem offstage, but his throws unlike Shulk's are better at forcing low recoveries, which he can sometimes punish extremely hard with his stronger F-air, or more importantly cover with Eruption which can kill people vertically at like 50%..

On the contrary here is the reality of Speed. I can go for a dash grab from Mid-range, or I can straight attack. The probability of one permits the other specifically because of the speed at which its performed. Your game plan isn't "Im going to stand in Mid range against what is currently one of the fastest characters in the game to react to a Frame 9 move that ignores Shield". If Im challenging you with that, then Shield is already a shaky option.

Shulk doesn't have to leave the ground in Speed arte and I quite frankly put it above Buster.
Utilt is frame 11-23, ending on what frame 39. Air dodges are ~4-34. Note the range of it above shulk. Shulks Utilt itself has to be respected, if you jump no one is losing sleep over it when we walk faster then Marth and are faster both in the air and the ground then the vast majority of the cast. Shulk gets more then enough off a U-throw and has all the tools required to follow up on it.

 

[Cassio]

@ Cassio F-smash isn't BS?

Its not quite fast enough + range, its good for different reasons. maybe an honorable mention.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On the contrary here is the reality of Speed. I can go for a dash grab from Mid-range, or I can straight attack. The probability of one permits the other specifically because of the speed at which its performed. Your game plan isn't "Im going to stand in Mid range against what is currently one of the fastest characters in the game to react to a Frame 9 move that ignores Shield". If Im challenging you with that, then Shield is already a shaky option.

Shulk doesn't have to leave the ground in Speed arte and I quite frankly put it above Buster.
Utilt is frame 11-23, ending on what frame 39. Air dodges are ~4-34. Note the range of it above shulk. Shulks Utilt itself has to be respected, if you jump no one is losing sleep over it when we walk faster then Marth and are faster both in the air and the ground then the vast majority of the cast. Shulk gets more then enough off a U-throw and has all the tools required to follow up on it.

So basically at low percents, Speed Shulk sorta has Captain Falcon's U-throw but instead uses U-tilt rather than U-air. That's amusing. Sorta wish more Falcon players used U-throw given his U-air trap is legitimately silly even at high percents.

 

[the king of murder]

Kind of random, but I decided to make a list of BS kill moves in the game as judged by pika and his inclination to die early to BS. Differentiating this from something like sheik's up-b which moreso requires a set-up and read rather then randomly tossing it out (though those listed could also have a set-up). Customs off because I dont know customs well enough. Also ordered from most frustrating to less frustrating.

Edit: What makes it BS is that its not something you can always predict or prepare for if tossed out randomly. In a perfect world you would never get hit by these moves in such situations but alas...

: FSMASH BS
: EVERYTHING
: EVERYTHING
: Waft BS
: Up B BS
: Side B BS
: Side B BS
: Side B BS
: (grab) Bthrow BS
: Up B BS
: Counter BS
: Everything Kindofnotreally
: Everything kindofnotreally
: Bthrow BS; Usmash kindanotreally


: Probably Something
: Probably something
: Maybe something?
: Upair BS

They Cool:

Why is Lucinas FS listed but not Marths?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why is Lucinas FS listed but not Marths?

As I think he explained months ago during an older discussion of Pikachu matchups, Marth's tipper F-smash requires a lot more precision to be a "scary" kill move.

I guess the question is now, with Lucina's buffs, are there other matchups where she's easier to play in than Marth?

 

[Nobie]

As I think he explained months ago during an older discussion of Pikachu matchups, Marth's tipper F-smash requires a lot more precision to be a "scary" kill move.

I guess the question is now, with Lucina's buffs, are there other matchups where she's easier to play in than Marth?

I think that really hinges on whether those slight buffs are enough to make up for her worse shield hit lag compared to Marth in 1.0.5. As in, do they actually make her shield hit lag comparable to Marth's now?

 

[Megamang]

As I think he explained months ago during an older discussion of Pikachu matchups, Marth's tipper F-smash requires a lot more precision to be a "scary" kill move.

I guess the question is now, with Lucina's buffs, are there other matchups where she's easier to play in than Marth?

Not having to worry about spacing a tipper is an asset against characters which can get in and stay in; her "get off me" (which both marth and lucina aren't the best at) is better at close range. Ive heard Pikachu as an example, although I don't have much play time against good marths or lucinas.

 

[the king of murder]

How much damage increases does Lucy need on her Fair, FS and the like to be relatively safe on shield or comparable to Marth atleast? A 0.5 damage increase doesn't sound like much.

 

[Megamang]

How much damage increases does Lucy need on her Fair, FS and the like to be relatively safe on shield or comparable to Marth atleast? A 0.5 damage increase doesn't sound like much.

Relatively safe on shield is pretty far off from Marth unfortunately.

 

[Cassio]

Best explained through example. Though my goal is to hit marth when navigating his sword in reality if I can at least get past the tip it mitigates the risk. I'm punished less hard for succeeding to a degree in my goal. If for some reason I get tipper fsmashed I either majorly screwed up or my opponent did something outstanding. Vs Lucina it's all or nothing and the nothing feels pretty bad.

 

[PUK]

What does BS mean?

 

[Megamang]

Like the colloquial BS, its not a smash term =]

(Its an english shorthand for bull ****)

So shiek's only disadvantaged matchup appears to be Lucario? Thats odd, but I do always like when the top tiers have surprisingly difficult time with the not quite tops. Gives variety in the metagame.


So who goes even against Shiek? Pika has the mobility but getting past those iron legs is hard. But then again, maybe Tshock camping will prevail over needles due to the angle and Pika's small stature. How is the ZSS matchup? I'd imagine Diddy now has problems since his kill throws have been neutered.

 

[Unknownkid]

Like the colloquial BS, its not a smash term =]

(Its an english shorthand for bull ****)

So shiek's only disadvantaged matchup appears to be Lucario? Thats odd, but I do always like when the top tiers have surprisingly difficult time with the not quite tops. Gives variety in the metagame.


So who goes even against Shiek? Pika has the mobility but getting past those iron legs is hard. But then again, maybe Tshock camping will prevail over needles due to the angle and Pika's small stature. How is the ZSS matchup? I'd imagine Diddy now has problems since his kill throws have been neutered.

The Kirby Board confirm that the Shiek MU is 50:50.

 

[Asdioh]

I'd argue it can be in kirbys favor with customs, especially after this patch. Crouching shuts down her camping, kirby with needles outcamps her hard for that reason (especially since he still has her pre-nerf needles from the original 3ds launch so they have slightly less endlag) and she's not particularly hard to inhale, like someone with constant disjointed hitboxes or projectiles like sword users or megaman would be.
Landing uptilt on her at zero or low percents gives kirby a free easy 40% combo, add 10 to that if he can hit with upper cutter afterwards. Crouching beats her grabs except specifically spaced dashgrab, dtilt and uptilt beat her approaches, because uptilt has partial invincibility on the foot. He also has superior ko power with aerials and smashes, except her sweetspot upsmash. If you're willing to play patiently I think the matchup is quite likely in kirbys favor, I think more people should give it a try.

 

[Megamang]

I'd argue it can be in kirbys favor with customs, especially after this patch. Crouching shuts down her camping, kirby with needles outcamps her hard for that reason (especially since he still has her pre-nerf needles from the original 3ds launch so they have slightly less endlag) and she's not particularly hard to inhale, like someone with constant disjointed hitboxes or projectiles like sword users or megaman would be.
Landing uptilt on her at zero or low percents gives kirby a free easy 40% combo, add 10 to that if he can hit with upper cutter afterwards. Crouching beats her grabs except specifically spaced dashgrab, dtilt and uptilt beat her approaches, because uptilt has partial invincibility on the foot. He also has superior ko power with aerials and smashes, except her sweetspot upsmash. If you're willing to play patiently I think the matchup is quite likely in kirbys favor, I think more people should give it a try.

Very interesting, do you have any good example tournament matches where this worked?

 

[Unknownkid]

Very interesting, do you have any good example tournament matches where this worked?

MikeKirby vs Vinnie are good ones though... Vinnie is catching on to Mike Kirby playstyle. Also, Triple R and T!mmy have some matches against Sheik like (T!mmy's Kirby vs T0mmy's Sheik).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think the pro shulk people are funny. With Shulk he commits to his strategy pretty hard and it's very one sided. The Monado arts aren't as dynamic as people claim. There's also the fact that if you're playing in a certain art that takes away from the monado cancel. So it becomes commit to Monado arts or commit to Monado cancel. The frame data is a big issue and becomes even bigger vs characters like shiek diddy fox sonic and pikachu. Shulk doesn't have anything that you'd want in a character other than range but his range comes with such massive draw backs.

 

[Thinkaman]

They Cool:

baffledreactionface.png

 

[Cassio]

baffledreactionface.png

lol, I did take a second to think about her but the key I guess is coming from a pika perspective. The move that potentially makes the list is up-b, I maybe gave it a pass because
1. Its still hard to hit pika with
2. Even when it does hit hes very prone to falling out
3. Pika wrecks ZSS regardless

Im actually not sure what ZSS is supposed to do in this MU, it might be pikas best MU among potential top tiers (even falcon with his speed and hard hits has things pika hates).

So who goes even against Shiek? Pika has the mobility but getting past those iron legs is hard. But then again, maybe Tshock camping will prevail over needles due to the angle and Pika's small stature.

Im sure this will cause players to slam their heads to desks, but assertive rolling is actually extremely effective against Sheik as pika. While others have stated their disagreement, sheiks comparatively mediocre ground game leads her to heavily rely on short hops to keep pika at bay. A well timed roll commits sheik facing forward with absolutely terrible options to cover her back (bair wont be reliable on pika). Having good roll frame data and an outstanding option out of roll (reverse utilt) its a strong cross up option on sheik. At the very least, it forces sheik to engage pika.

 

[Thinkaman]

If I were to make a graph of kill % vs. hit frame, the only move in the game that would be more of a positive outlier than ZSS up-b would be Rest.

Edit: Doc up-b 1 and 3 could each be comparable depending on how you framed/compared it.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

So you mean KO% / hit frame, right? Sounds interesting.

 

[David Viran]

2. Even when it does hit hes very prone to falling out

This is not completly true. I've noticed with up b that most characters don't get out noticably easier between eachother. Except for fox. It scales noticably more on him for some reason and I don't know why.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

This is not completly true. I've noticed with up b that most characters don't get out noticably easier between eachother. Except for fox. It scales noticably more on him for some reason and I don't know why.

Boost Kick's weak hits apply mostly vertical KB and Fox's high gravity (most likely) affects this. I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik/Greninja/Dedede yielded similar results.

 

[David Viran]

Boost Kick's weak hits apply mostly vertical KB and Fox's high gravity (most likely) affects this. I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik/Greninja/Dedede yielded similar results.

I tested greninja I did not notice it. Fox can just fly out of the top of the weak hitboxes before anybody else.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Kind of random, but I decided to make a list of BS kill moves in the game as judged by pika and his inclination to die early to BS. Differentiating this from something like sheik's up-b which moreso requires a set-up and read rather then randomly tossing it out (though those listed could also have a set-up). Customs off because I dont know customs well enough. Also ordered from most frustrating to less frustrating.

Edit: What makes it BS is that its not something you can always predict or prepare for if tossed out randomly. In a perfect world you would never get hit by these moves in such situations but alas...

: FSMASH BS
: EVERYTHING
: EVERYTHING
: Waft BS
: Up B BS
: Side B BS
: Side B BS
: Side B BS
: (grab) Bthrow BS
: Up B BS
: Counter BS
: Everything Kindofnotreally
: Everything kindofnotreally
: Bthrow BS; Usmash kindanotreally


: Probably Something
: Probably something
: Maybe something?
: Upair BS

They Cool:

So where does Charizard rank in this?

 

[Shaya]

baffledreactionface.png

Please sir. If we could use that move like any other 4 framer should (i.e. not giving a ****) then I'd accept your linear schema.
Not only does it require the right position for people to not fall out (i.e. right in front of her basically) if she ever trades she's taking RCO lag enough for a charged smash attack.

If that move didn't have RCO, I would accept ZSS' Boost Kick is pretty bs. But the reason a majority of people die to it right now is they're too busy trying to fall out (when it's the ZSS' inputs/starting position that matter here, not the victim) and don't hold down/away which results in a very horizontal hit which most characters can survive well past 100% [Mario centre stage is like 140%?].

Also rage really impacts it's consistency. But at the same time rage can let it kill like 50% earlier. I guess ragesuit boost kick is pretty bull ****.

 

[PUK]

Like full rage FW which kills lightweight before 20% lol

 

[Blobface]

: EVERYTHING

Spoiler

You think Ganon is painful now? Just wait till you deal with Dark Fists Ganon. One goof, one unsafe attack, and he'll uppercut you into space at <35%.

 

[David Viran]

Please sir. If we could use that move like any other 4 framer should (i.e. not giving a ****) then I'd accept your linear schema.
Not only does it require the right position for people to not fall out (i.e. right in front of her basically) if she ever trades she's taking RCO lag enough for a charged smash attack.

If that move didn't have RCO, I would accept ZSS' Boost Kick is pretty bs. But the reason a majority of people die to it right now is they're too busy trying to fall out (when it's the ZSS' inputs/starting position that matter here, not the victim) and don't hold down/away which results in a very horizontal hit which most characters can survive well past 100% [Mario centre stage is like 140%?].

Also rage really impacts it's consistency. But at the same time rage can let it kill like 50% earlier. I guess ragesuit boost kick is pretty bull ****.

Mario survives till 118% from the center of FD and good DI.

 

[Shaya]

Mario survives till 118% from the center of FD and good DI.

Then I guess anecdotal instances must have been staled or not so centre stage. Are you referring to pre or after percent? (would be 134% post, which is what I was referring to)

And testing in training mode, DI down/away wasn't the right DI. It is down and in *whoops*.
Able to have Mario survive from the initial hit of around 118-120%.

 

[Blobface]

So frame data comes up a lot, but I'm curious, what character do you think has the best hitboxes in the game? What character has the best hitboxes combined with Frame Data?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Best for what situation? KOing? KOing from where? Off the top? Off the sides? Off of a stage bounce? Offstage?

Nah I'm just givin ya a hard time. While I was showering I was thinking about "hitbox density" and other dumb stuff. It would be neat if we could find a discrete way to measure hitboxes not only against their frames but against their size as well. Like, this hitbox exerts this much raw knockback under these conditions on this much area over this much time. Other things like hitbox refresh could probably be accounted for by treating it as a multiplier.