Character Competitive Impressions

[Anomilus]

So, anybody seen Megaman's new DGCGT tech?

Okay, I'm sorry but if any of us have not seen this new tech, how in the world are we supposed to figure out a five-word anagram for said new tech??

Please explain please.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Okay, I'm sorry but if any of us have not seen this new tech, how in the world are we supposed to figure out a five-word anagram for said new tech??

Please explain please.

It's being called a "Dash Grab Canceled Glide Toss," but since it requires you to have an item in your hand already, I'm pretty sure it's a Dash Item Throw Canceled Item Throw. You cancel the beginning of a running item throw with an item throw upward (not sure why that works), and you get a huge slide forward. Of the other item-spawning characters, Link and Pac-Man also get a significant slide, but Mega Man's is "half of Final Destination" big.

 

[thehard]

omg stickers. **** nintendo for cutting them
Seems we've about wrapped up this debate (for now) but just some rushed points I wanted to make-

I do actually think that The Big N would intervene if more players used controversial customs, the problem is that even after the nerfs I don't see people dropping their Diddy and Sheik for custom DK and custom Villager, so we may never get to that point of overuse (and infamy). Still if you want to make funny photoshops with Kong Cyclone to raise awareness and maybe get it tweaked to the point where both parties are happy go right ahead.

A trend I've seen in other multiplayer games is that a lot of players are afraid of actually STRONG moves and strategies. They are afraid of moves they have to look out for, rather than the supplementary stuff (that may in fact be underpowered), which causes these moves or strategies to be put on the ban chopping block.

Stupid Sonic runaway tactics are probably far more potentially harmful than Cyclone/Villedger abuse, esp. at lower levels.

Let's not say "a strike against customs", when customs range from harmless affairs like Leaping Rest to... the strong stuff. It doesn't make any sense to crusade against all customs when you have issues with a couple, especially with the ease of restricting individual moves.

If the community banned everything a large amount of players found "unsavory" or "annoying", default Villager would have been banned by now. (Ditto Sonic, Diddy, Sheik... Halberd, Skyloft, CS and DH would be banned... etc.)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

lol.

Is Mewtwo really that confusing for you guys to grasp?

Come on now.

He is ganondorf with a projectile and safer neutral at the expense of being huge and light.

Come again?

About Mewtwo, as others said, he seems to have the the same traits as Ganondorf. "I may be light (gimpable in Ganon's case), but I will still kill you out of nowhere".

I remember @ A2ZOMG mentioning that Ganon has a grappler based playstyle. Mewtwo has a more yield based playstyle, but with similar reads and difficulties that Ganon needs to make to to a stock.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's being called a "Dash Grab Canceled Glide Toss," but since it requires you to have an item in your hand already, I'm pretty sure it's a Dash Item Throw Canceled Item Throw. You cancel the beginning of a running item throw with an item throw upward (not sure why that works), and you get a huge slide forward. Of the other item-spawning characters, Link and Pac-Man also get a significant slide, but Mega Man's is "half of Final Destination" big.

Yeah it looks pretty sick. Here's the video from the MM boards.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rj3kgaikN_s

 

[san.]

Even though it's not correct, I still call it DACIT. Surprised people didn't know about this. It's also possible to throw it forward and slide, but it's more difficult than it was in Brawl. That's why those who knew about it never really used it given the opportunity.

Ike's still goes about as far as Mega Man's, perhaps slightly more.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

After seeing -this- ridiculous thing, I took a closer look at the numbers on Speeding Bike:

https://gfycat.com/ColorlessRadiantBooby

It has an obscene base knockback while you're riding it, so it's affected by Rage by a ridiculous amount, as seen there.

Apparently, all the different Bikes' wheelie "slam" have obscene base knockback, which is why it's such a potent KO move on the regular Bike, but Speeding Bike has it when you're running into someone normally, so it's wayyy more practical.

All the more reason for Corkscrew Leap to be on sets, so that you can easily and safely recover even after using an offstage Bike like that.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's got new tech against Villager's Explosive Balloon, yo! It's called: get bodied to win.

Spoiler

Liquid does a Bair before Ant touches the ledge, destroys all the balloons and hits Villager all at the same time.

 

[Superbat]

Falco's got new tech against Villager's Explosive Balloon, yo! It's called: get bodied to win.

Spoiler

Liquid does a Bair before Villager touches the ledge, destroys all the balloons and hits Villager all at the same time.

AYY More Falco representation though? lol

 

[Cool]

Okay, I'm sorry but if any of us have not seen this new tech, how in the world are we supposed to figure out a five-word anagram for said new tech??

Please explain please.

Sorry friend, I suppose I should have elaborated.

Perhaps this is suitable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRqCOvRsU38

 

[Ffamran]

AYY More Falco representation though? lol

To list off the known, has been on footage before, US players, we have GimR, Keitaro, Pawclaw, Cyro, Kato, Liquid, and Manny Manito. Of those 6, GimR's secondaries Falco and is pretty much the most well-known SSB4 Falco player while Kato and Liquid are regulars in the west coast. I'm not to sure on Cyro and Pawclaw, though, while Manny's in Puerto Rico. Keitaro's iffy though since I haven't seen his Falco since Apex. Gamegenie222, Steelsburg. FOW, and Zanryo are other Falco players as well. Of those players, I don't think any of them qualify for results that are major enough for people to even care about Falco. The Falco board's Zionaze and Snipnigth compete as well.

Outside of the US, I have no idea other than the congregation of Falco players whose matches are uploaded on terminalkai. It's like this Japanese Falco club or something. There was a dude who used Falco in Australia, but he's decent. Same with in France and Italy. Shaya sort of counts for Australia, but Shaya, weren't you traveling the world or something?

As for the Explosive Balloon Trip thing, it's probably not going to happen against a ledge-camping and aware Villager, but it's something that I guess everyone can do. Liquid probably knew that Ant was traveling a bit to slow and he could stage spike him, what he and everyone didn't know was that there would be an explosion. It's basically a stage spike, but with added flair and hilarity. The other thing is that Ant was away from the ledge and not ledge-camping like what ADHD did, so there was time for Liquid to do something while a ledge-camping Villager would have probably dented Falco's beak with Fair along with slapping down a Lloid Rocket to cover himself.

 

[Yonder]

Realistically, though, customs only change a few matchups in the entire cast for me. Maybe it's a Luigi thing, but only a few matchups fundamentally change. Also, Luigi's customs are kinda meh, so I can play in both formats and do equally well. Only Iceball is worth considering, and maybe one of the side-bs.

Yes, I agree regarding Luigi's customs iceballs are really that good though but hard to master. Terrible if used wrong. Great for extra grab setups, extra damage during a grab, force shields, and freezing effect gives Luigi lots of breathing room.

Missiles are basically for better recovery.

Burial header and bouncing fireballs are very niche. Maybe if you want a tad extra range for fireballs? Burial header might be unexplored, idk.

Mach tornado if you're crazy enough to give up your main killing and approach tool for one of the best recoveries. Not worth it. Master button mashing instead for jumpless cyclones.

Clothesline tornado and easy uppercut are AWFUL.

 

[Gunla]

Clothesline Tornado/Cyclone is a special that doesn't really seem good... At all.

It's an overall worse version of either special, because it's slow and too short to really be worth the payoff for either Doc or Luigi.

 

[Ffamran]

After seeing -this- ridiculous thing, I took a closer look at the numbers on Speeding Bike:

https://gfycat.com/ColorlessRadiantBooby

It has an obscene base knockback while you're riding it, so it's affected by Rage by a ridiculous amount, as seen there.

Apparently, all the different Bikes' wheelie "slam" have obscene base knockback, which is why it's such a potent KO move on the regular Bike, but Speeding Bike has it when you're running into someone normally, so it's wayyy more practical.

All the more reason for Corkscrew Leap to be on sets, so that you can easily and safely recover even after using an offstage Bike like that.

I was wondering what that was about and yeah... Poor Liquid Falco... So, Speeding Bike as an edgeguard tool? And does Wario's Dash Attack behave similarly to Mario's Dash Attack where it can linger over the ledge? And it semi-spikes apparently... One of the commentators mentioned that the last part of Wario's Dash Attack trips, so I'm assuming this is what happens to mid-air opponents.

 

[Shaya]

I'm very glad I've woken up to a lot of people agreeing on the practical side of the issue/argument (doesn't mean you're pro or anti customs); maybe just maybe the word objective will now never be used for anything other than the negative ('there's no objective way to...') *my soul now knows some peace*.
I still feel there's a great danger/travesty potentially being seen at Evo due to "outdated" or non-optimal custom sets being forced onto players + a large chunk of the "top players" opting for defaults. It's going to make Evo hard to accurately gauge the merits of vanilla vs custom as a whole yet it's going to be the confirmation a lot of people are looking for to solidify their stance. All it needs is one strong competing player to say "I couldn't do what I wanted to" or similar to throw an emotional pull that we'll all be festering over one way or another.

We probably should be trying to persuade Wizard to have custom set alterations. If they're minimal he may be swayed. If Lucas patch drops changes to customs we could be dealing with a huge mess I believe we need to worry about. Last thing I want is either side to be under or misrepresented (you'll find me arguing for any side because I believe practicality involves considering both and coming to a mutual point rather than "1 way is best").

Shaya sort of counts for Australia, but Shaya, weren't you traveling the world or something?

My current travels are ended. It was just a North America trip though. If only Europe were a little closer. I'm not aware of any other falcos in Aus actually, but I have used Falco in tournament here (it's way too good a counterpick to Olimar or Customs DK). I think as time goes on the restrictions on Falco become more apparent when meta develops around otherwise, like jab 1 mix ups are becoming more common again as people get comfortable with them and one of Falco's most needed tools doesn't necessarily hold up to better characters. His side-b lack of ending hitbox means he's very prone to people beating it without stress or timing (Fox' is a lot harder). However, he still has ftilt/dtilt, some of the best in the game, but he doesn't have any mid-range pokes or punishes that are as competitive as better characters. Cross ups are very important yet with Falco's aerial mobility and lack of a safe landing aerial he's practically restricted to always dealing with front-faced options. Down-B is honestly one of his better moves yet the custom we have that removes its reflecting abilities comes with a lot more start up and lag; I don't think the drawback/benefits are weighed together well.

So I tend to think Falco is not viable as a main, but rather a secondary for match ups (fatties plus a lot of projectile set up characters), he leans on the crutch of his down-b too hard.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was wondering what that was about and yeah... Poor Liquid Falco... So, Speeding Bike as an edgeguard tool? And does Wario's Dash Attack behave similarly to Mario's Dash Attack where it can linger over the ledge? And it semi-spikes apparently... One of the commentators mentioned that the last part of Wario's Dash Attack trips, so I'm assuming this is what happens to mid-air opponents.

Wario's Dash Attack does linger. It trips against grounded opponents and sends them at 180 degrees if they're in the air (as in, literally straight horizontal toward you). You can do a lot with it. This is a link I posted a couple of days ago--

https://gfycat.com/LinedUnequaledKilldeer

 

[Blobface]

Wario's Dash Attack does linger. It trips against grounded opponents and sends them at 180 degrees if they're in the air (as in, literally straight horizontal toward you). You can do a lot with it. This is a link I posted a couple of days ago--

https://gfycat.com/LinedUnequaledKilldeer

"Whole Mlik"
Megaman is lactose intolerant apparently.

Can we talk about this guy?
Tested out his customs for the first time today and holy crap does he get some nice things. Neutral/Down customs all have distinct uses, and Dash Slash is a setup that sets up everything at any percent. With his Side-B to augment his recovery and his fatty fatness, he'll probably survive longer than anyone else in the game. With customs he might even be a slight counter to Sheik just because He could survive for days against her.

This is all really abrupt first impressions of course, so I might be glossing over something completely.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

After seeing -this- ridiculous thing, I took a closer look at the numbers on Speeding Bike:

https://gfycat.com/ColorlessRadiantBooby

It has an obscene base knockback while you're riding it, so it's affected by Rage by a ridiculous amount, as seen there.

Apparently, all the different Bikes' wheelie "slam" have obscene base knockback, which is why it's such a potent KO move on the regular Bike, but Speeding Bike has it when you're running into someone normally, so it's wayyy more practical.

All the more reason for Corkscrew Leap to be on sets, so that you can easily and safely recover even after using an offstage Bike like that.

Ban Speeding Bike, it KOs at sub 60%, it's basically a faster Heavy Skull Bash

On a more serious note, does rage affect BKB exclusively? Or BKB + KBG?

 

[Lavani]

On a more serious note, does rage affect BKB exclusively? Or BKB + KBG?

Tests I did awhile back with Falcon Punch (0BKB 90KBG) and Luma dair (90BKB 110KBG) suggest the latter.

It's just going to have a pronounced effect on fraudulent early KOs with high BKB moves for obvious reasons.

 

[Conda]

Not too many Shulks visible lately. How are you guys & gals feeling about him in the past month or so?

 

[Shaya]

Not too many Shulks visible lately. How are you guys & gals feeling about him in the past month or so?

Only player I'm aware of using him with results is gnes (Brawl MLG champion for those who don't know of him). I think the buffs he got definitely ensured he no longer was a bottom tier character, but I think the skill curve and really fast reactions required to just meet a baseline viability is way too high. Who woulda thought pressing B 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 times (where the wrong one could kill you) would cause so many issues when there's an opponent out to get you? Well, probably everyone.

However once Shulk gets into a good spot in terms of momentum things go really well for him. I just don't think he has a reliable means of doing so against any of the faster/smaller characters or those with good zoning.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Tests I did a really long time ago with Falcon Punch and Luma dair suggest the latter.

It's just going to have a pronounced effect on fraudulent early KOs with BKB for obvious reasons.

God, Luma... why do all of its attacks have either ridiculous BKB or ridiculous KBG

Not too many Shulks visible lately. How are you guys & gals feeling about him in the past month or so?

Shulk seems like a pretty solid character, it's just poor horizontal recovery that hurts him. Even with Monado Jump, you've gotta have your second jump cause the increased fall speed hinders the buffed aerial mobility.

Neutral is sorta lacking imo, but great range on tilts and aerials and relatively low landing lag on (most of) the latter lets him space really well, even without a MArt active. The fact that he can go really deep for FAir gimps is good too, but it seems recovering low isn't as common in Smash 4 as it is in other games (plus not many of his attacks force low recovery aside from maybe the weak hits of DSmash). UAir is really unreliable since people can just fall out of the blade hit and you can see an Air Slash coming from a mile away.

Not a lot of trouble KOing or racking damage but difficulty in getting things rolling since he can't really force people to approach hurts.

Edit: @ Shaya Trela plays Monado Boy too, in addition to Robin and Charizard (dunno how much he plays Charizard tho)

 

[Lavani]

God, Luma... why do all of its attacks have either ridiculous BKB or ridiculous KBG

Well, KBG is multiplied with damage and its attacks do 2~8% so it kind of needs that KBG to have notable knockback scaling.

I got nothin' for the BKB on utilt/uair/dair though.

 

[Shaya]

Edit: @ Shaya Trela plays Monado Boy too, in addition to Robin and Charizard (dunno how much he plays Charizard tho)

Haven't seen it come up against his name in a long while I thought. Seems to mostly have been Robin'ing as of late or random single tournament character pick ups.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Haven't seen it come up against his name in a long while I thought. Seems to mostly have been Robin'ing as of late or random single tournament character pick ups.

He's got some pretty recent (two months ago) sets up on Tourney Locator's channel where he goes nearly exclusively Shulk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_kRy1ZvfkE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5oocHBxMUs

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Not too many Shulks visible lately. How are you guys & gals feeling about him in the past month or so?

My stance on shulk hasn't changed bottom 5.

 

[Ffamran]

My stance on shulk hasn't changed bottom 5.

At least explain why in case someone doesn't remember or is new to the the competitive scene or has no idea who Shulk is.

 

[Conda]

At least explain why in case someone doesn't remember or is new to the the competitive scene or has no idea who Shulk is.

That's not @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY 's style.

Seriously @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY , more context and such in your posts would go a long way. You often post the most vague statements and they started coming across as bait and hyperbole many many pages ago.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I enjoy playing Shulk for fun. It's just that when you don't have a noticeably advantageous situation, he feels like butt.

 

[HeavyLobster]

"Whole Mlik"
Megaman is lactose intolerant apparently.

Can we talk about this guy?
Tested out his customs for the first time today and holy crap does he get some nice things. Neutral/Down customs all have distinct uses, and Dash Slash is a setup that sets up everything at any percent. With his Side-B to augment his recovery and his fatty fatness, he'll probably survive longer than anyone else in the game. With customs he might even be a slight counter to Sheik just because He could survive for days against her.

This is all really abrupt first impressions of course, so I might be glossing over something completely.

Bowser is many things, but a counter to Sheik is not one of them. His recovery isn't really much better because Dash Slash doesn't ledgesnap and he's a massive target who still has trouble landing.(though not as much as he did without Dash Slash) DK, Ganon, and Zard all gain significant upgrades to their recoveries, while Bowser's is only slightly better, and still weaker than the aforementioned characters as well as Dedede. I think all of those at least have comparable survivability with customs, and DK/DDD are probably a bit better. Sheik still messes with him with needles and can juggle him forever. He's also a huge target so she can more easily pull off her BF/Vanish setups when he does get to kill %s. Bowser loves his Dash Slash, but the other customs are generally sidegrades and he still has a number of issues.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Shulks problems are his start up on moves and his poor aerial mobility. He can only go one way really wuick and comitts to very unsafe moves unless in buster. Then there's a lot of cool down on his moves and he can't really wall someone out. His safety issues on aerials can be lessen by using monado arts cancels. His best aerial starts up in 14 frames and his fastest tilt is 10 frames. His jab is 5 frames which hurts in conjunction with his other slow moves. Put it together you have a character with a bad ground and air game one which needs to jump through hops (monado cancel) just to be safe. He also has problems when people are juggling him. His counter is good though. Also the frame data is from 1.04 idk if they changed his frame data in the update but they probably didn't.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Shulk is good when you land hits and your opponent doesn't know how to abuse his lag on moves and just think "gigantic range, dumb character what do"
I'd put him bottom of the pack in whatever people's tier of High tier looks like. Potential i's there, horrible word to throw out, but it's there and just need either another push in terms of buffs or a high caliber player to do incredibly well with him.

Trela still looking for himself, he pretty much been Robin only lately but he might switch to Mewtwo exclusively now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shulk might be bottom 15. Anyone who thinks he's Ike 2.0 is crazy when Ike is kinda blatantly better than him by a very significant margin. Shulk's throws are meh without Monado shenanigans, all his attacks are on the slow side, and he basically doesn't have any safe KO confirms. Also he gets juggled and edgeguarded very easily.

Ike in contrast has autocancelable aerials, 7 frame 14% B-air, some of the best throws in the game actually, and his land trap options are better than Shulk's (U-smash and U-air lol). Ike's a pretty underrated character, can win games off his very strong grab game almost alone, and this is before factoring that he actually has a bunch of moves that have fairly impressive frame data. It's not like Shulk beats Ike very significantly in edgeguard situations when like Ike his aerials get airdodged on reaction pretty easily, while Ike in contrast can deny ledge sweetspots really hard with Eruption.

 

[Teshie U]

Shulk's throws are meh without monado shenanigans?

Thats kind of the character. His options do TONS of things depending on his opponents, percent, his percent and the mode he is in.

Dthrow in buster mode setting up for massive 2 hitters for damage. Or dthrow straight up killing in smash and setting up for strong jump mode edgeguarding.

He doesnt have safe kill setups I guess, outside of just making a good read or edgeguarding, but once you are at kill percents, he can just use shield mode and fish for things if he has you cornered. You can't kill him for being wrong and if he was at low to mid percents, he can just go into smash mode and suddenly you can't get grabbed, jabbed, faired, tilted or ANYTHING.

Shulk really does tend to excel at all the things that make Ike good + he gets to alter physics whenever he wants.

 

[Nobie]

God, Luma... why do all of its attacks have either ridiculous BKB or ridiculous KBG


Shulk seems like a pretty solid character, it's just poor horizontal recovery that hurts him. Even with Monado Jump, you've gotta have your second jump cause the increased fall speed hinders the buffed aerial mobility.

Neutral is sorta lacking imo, but great range on tilts and aerials and relatively low landing lag on (most of) the latter lets him space really well, even without a MArt active. The fact that he can go really deep for FAir gimps is good too, but it seems recovering low isn't as common in Smash 4 as it is in other games (plus not many of his attacks force low recovery aside from maybe the weak hits of DSmash). UAir is really unreliable since people can just fall out of the blade hit and you can see an Air Slash coming from a mile away.

Not a lot of trouble KOing or racking damage but difficulty in getting things rolling since he can't really force people to approach hurts.

Edit: @ Shaya Trela plays Monado Boy too, in addition to Robin and Charizard (dunno how much he plays Charizard tho)

We should start referring to Speed Monado as the Kwik-E MArt.

 

[Pazx]

Wii Fit Trainer is top tier with customs OFF.

I don't actually believe that, but she's not anywhere near bottom 10 either. Recent videos of high quality WFT play:

https://youtu.be/3O74kEq9bcw Grands vs Kevs

https://youtu.be/1-ib_i9gvvo Winners Finals vs SKRY

https://youtu.be/aRGFxgyGXiQ Winners Semis vs TJSlash

https://youtu.be/YuL5EEZpBXE Winners Quarters vs Kevs /

https://youtu.be/17J1A58HUMM Pools vs Bogoron

I genuinely do not think WFT is a bad character. She seemingly has a few difficult matchups but such good tools in most situations that none are even close to unwinnable. I invite anybody to point out the flaws in this character and how to capitalise on them. inb4 "janky hitboxes"

 

[Jaxas]

Wii Fit Trainer is top tier with customs OFF.

I don't actually believe that, but she's not anywhere near bottom 10 either. Recent videos of high quality WFT play:

https://youtu.be/3O74kEq9bcw Grands vs Kevs

https://youtu.be/1-ib_i9gvvo Winners Finals vs SKRY

https://youtu.be/aRGFxgyGXiQ Winners Semis vs TJSlash

https://youtu.be/YuL5EEZpBXE Winners Quarters vs Kevs /

https://youtu.be/17J1A58HUMM Pools vs Bogoron

I genuinely do not think WFT is a bad character. She seemingly has a few difficult matchups but such good tools in most situations that none are even close to unwinnable. I invite anybody to point out the flaws in this character and how to capitalise on them. inb4 "janky hitboxes"

Hmm, well I've only actually fought Customs: on WFT, but from what I can tell...
Mostly just short range on a lot of attacks, meaning that she loses when other characters would trade (So Diddy's Fair seems solid against her; I don't play Diddy though, so I'm not as sure about that).

Otherwise she seems like a solid character, but I don't believe her kill power is very good, nor are her attacks particularly safe from what I can tell.

So I guess I think s/he's certainly not bad, but nothing amazing either.

Weighted Header > Jumbo Hoops, though

 

[Shaya]

Wii Fit has much better planking than Villager.
World needs to know that exploding balloons aren't real, but invincibility moves are.

I don't think she's bottom 10 in terms of inherent strengths anymore.
But I think she does considerably worse vs the best characters than those averaging around her perceived position.
She has brawl-level abusive air and spot dodges, but top tiers don't care about that ****.
Her nair and ftilt are kinda ridiculous, but small characters don't care about that ****.

Like, I wonder if there's a character other than maybe Samus who deals with Sheik's needles worse than Wii Fit?
How's she dealing with Diddy's anti-air game and dominant ground control?
How can she ever land or use her best strategies (off stage/aerial baits) against Pikachu?
Olimar, Megaman and I would assume Mario/Luigi aren't entirely fun for her either.
However, what she can handle? She handles pretty well, she could even have positive match ups against highish characters.

 

[Chuva]

Like, I wonder if there's a character other than maybe Samus who deals with Sheik's needles worse than Wii Fit?

Can't she completely ignore needles in the neutral by crawling?

 

[Shaya]

Can't she completely ignore needles in the neutral by crawling?

I had kinda forgotten about that but I did have a different notion in mind. She doesn't really get much out of her crawl (does moving make her vulnerable to needles?).
But that probably does end my hyperbole there though, fatties intrinsically would have less fun. But in my mind it's more so how she's playing her game that needles tend to just... annihilate her. To a fatty getting hit by needles is natural, to her it really keeps her to very little abilities. She has two charge abilities, she's floaty and she likes doing them in the air, so a lot of characters struggle really capitalising on her as well as what she gains from a few seconds of "free time" is usually more. Sheik is insanely good at making her able to do not much but as you say, crouch.