Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

But Bowser with speed equipment is also more fun. If equipment was non-random and everyone had the same equips, would we also want equipment on?

There are around 6 issues with equipment that are each individually total deal-breakers. Randomness and intense setup logistics (more than custom specials) is only one of them.

It's reasonable to practice against every character, and it's reasonable to practice against every (viable) custom special. It's not remotely reasonable to practice against all configurations of equipment, which affects the entire moveset of every character. (Including binary things like SH AC windows--it's not simply a spectrum)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yea, stun is % based. I doubt it's still reliable, though.

Also no, grounding doesn't true combo into smash (maybe on bigger characters), but you can catch the ascent fairly easily due to the linger.

You can't steer Rising Smash like you can with the other two Up-Bs, though, which, when combined with the great startup, make it much easier to react to by an opponent to drift away from it.

 

[DunnoBro]

Equipment actually has merit on a theological scale, but the logistics are many, many times worse than customs and to the point it's just not worth considering.

I do like that ganondorf's dair auto cancels again by giving him as little as +7 speed iirc. And there's way more combos and strings when characters have more defense.

It could be a fun side meta for 3ds or online tournaments, but it isn't feasible for Wii U. (Unless we maybe create a pre-approved list of equipment attainable in every game via challenges or the like... But that kind of defeats the point, doesn't it?)

 

[GeneralLedge]

You know what would be really neat from a perspective of the game's design? Options in the 'special smash' to do some of the equipment-specific things universally, or straight-up set landing lag percent (Good god imagine if landing lag were doubled or tripled for all characters. That would be a glorious train wreck).

Alas...

 

[Djent]

Equipment actually has merit on a theological scale,

Indeed, it brings many characters close to godhood.

 

[busken]

You know what would be really neat from a perspective of the game's design? Options in the 'special smash' to do some of the equipment-specific things universally, or straight-up set landing lag percent (Good god imagine if landing lag were doubled or tripled for all characters. That would be a glorious train wreck).

Alas...

FG Toon Links will have their sword stuck in the ground for like 3 hours xD

 

[|RK|]

The reality is that players can play without customs in a customs-on meta. Players aren't really 'forced' to use customs. However~~

The issue is when customs change the viability and metagame for their characters.
Try to find a guide in the near future that doesn't focus on Kong Cyclone, a competitive guide not focusing on Crescent Slash, or a competitive guide not focusing on Upper Cutter. The opportunity cost of alienating players who are limited to a customs-off metagame is there. 'Competitive Smash' will be 'Customs-On Smash', and anyone who is limited to customs-off for many legitimate reasons is left out of the party.

So while nobody is 'forced' to use customs in a customs-on metagame, they'll be pushed to by logical results of the customs-on metagame. It also makes it sting because the solution on Sakurai's end is so darn easy peasy. This is Smash 4's primary 'not considering competitive players' issue.

On this note... after the Inhale buff, I think I'm on the same side as Mike Kirby in preferring regular Inhale (dunno if he still does, but I know that he did) over Jumping Inhale. Even knowing all of the benefits of Jumping Inhale. I was always on team normal Hammer, so really the only customs I prefer for Kirby are Upper Cutter (obvs) and Meteor Stone (but regular Stone still has the utility of quick Stone).

 

[Thinkaman]

If equipment were replaced by just "+15 Attack, Defense, or Speed" it would be an interesting and workable system. It would have some issues, but if the numbers were balanced decently and if selection was implemented well (in the game natively) could do more good than harm.

Think Pokemon EVs or League of Legend Rune/Masteries. Both systems have issues and could be seriously streamlined, but ultimately help high-level play more than they hurt.

On this note... after the Inhale buff, I think I'm on the same side as Mike Kirby in preferring regular Inhale (dunno if he still does, but I know that he did) over Jumping Inhale. Even knowing all of the benefits of Jumping Inhale. I was always on team normal Hammer, so really the only customs I prefer for Kirby are Upper Cutter (obvs) and Meteor Stone (but regular Stone still has the utility of quick Stone).

Jumping Inhale is still probably best in certain matchups, including LOL-countering Kong cyclone.

 

[Conda]

There are around 6 issues with equipment that are each individually total deal-breakers. Randomness and intense setup logistics (more than custom specials) is only one of them.

It's reasonable to practice against every character, and it's reasonable to practice against every (viable) custom special. It's not remotely reasonable to practice against all configurations of equipment, which affects the entire moveset of every character. (Including binary things like SH AC windows--it's not simply a spectrum)

I understand that and that is my point - we look at the issues and aspects of the 'feature' logically. Customs-on has logical issues, this time not practice-related but rather implementation&logistics-related. The sets project is a solution, but not a perfect one and not one that permeates magically to changing how the majority of player are able to most conveniently play, practice, and identify with the competitive community in some fashion.

A customs-on metagame accidentally ends up alienating those stuck to For Glory and such, whose practice is actually for naught and not really transferable to a local tournament they may decide to attend, nor can they really learn much from tournament streams if the metagame is so different there.

We may look down on them as not tournament players, but the 1v1 smash community is larger than "who attends tournaments". Customs not being part of 'the game everyone gets to enjoy' is an aspect I recognize clearly, and fully blame the developers for. However, we have a decision to make due to how customs are implemented, and neither is perfect. But one decision affects some aspects of the game and community more than others. As a commentator and youtuber, there is a huge array of players not included in our competitive scene based on the game literally having a different meta.

I'm not saying we should switch to customs-off in order to synchronize the metagame for non-tournament players. That'd be silly. Rather, I'm pointing out the pros and cons of both decisions and how they affect those without a voice.

 

[Thinkaman]

I understand that and that is my point - we look at the issues and aspects of the 'feature' logically. Customs-on has logical issues, this time not practice-related but rather implementation&logistics-related. The sets project is a solution, but not a perfect one and not one that permeates magically to changing how the majority of player are able to most conveniently play, practice, and identify with the competitive community in some fashion.

A customs-on metagame accidentally ends up alienating those stuck to For Glory and such, whose practice is actually for naught and not really transferable to a local tournament they may decide to attend, nor can they really learn much from tournament streams if the metagame is so different there.

We may look down on them as not tournament players, but the 1v1 smash community is larger than "who attends tournaments". Customs not being part of 'the game everyone gets to enjoy' is an aspect I recognize clearly, and fully blame the developers for. However, we have a decision to make due to how customs are implemented, and neither is perfect. But one decision affects some aspects of the game and community more than others. As a commentator and youtuber, there is a huge array of players not included in our competitive scene based on the game literally having a different meta.

I'm not saying we should switch to customs-off in order to synchronize the metagame for non-tournament players. That'd be silly. Rather, I'm pointing out the pros and cons of both decisions and how they affect those without a voice.

Right, I appreciate your point 100% and think it's really important.

That said, we don't cater tourney rulesets exclusively to the least common denominator to avoid alienating casual players. Otherwise, we'd play with items and no team attack.

That fact that we have a new casual-competitive, faux-competitive, semi-competitive, or whatever-you-want-to-call-it-competitive tier of players doesn't change anything.

 

[Conda]

I understand that and that is my point - we look at the issues and aspects of the 'feature' logically. Customs-on has logical issues, this time not practice-related but rather implementation&logistics-related. The sets project is a solution, but not a perfect one and not one that permeates magically to changing how the majority of player are able to most conveniently play, practice, and identify with the competitive community in some fashion.

A customs-on metagame accidentally ends up alienating those stuck to For Glory and such, whose practice is actually for naught and not really transferable to a local tournament they may decide to attend, nor can they really learn much from tournament streams if the metagame is so different there.

We may look down on them as not tournament players, but the 1v1 smash community is larger than "who attends tournaments". Customs not being part of 'the game everyone gets to enjoy' is an aspect I recognize clearly, and fully blame the developers for. However, we have a decision to make due to how customs are implemented, and neither is perfect. But one decision affects some aspects of the game and community more than others. As a commentator and youtuber, there is a huge array of players not included in our competitive scene based on the game literally having a different meta.

I'm not saying we should switch to customs-off in order to synchronize the metagame for non-tournament players. That'd be silly. Rather, I'm pointing out the pros and cons of both decisions and how they affect those without a voice.

Addendum--



Playing Brawl stock matches online in 1v1s was tournament rules. Playing Smash 4 stock matches online in 1v1s is not tournament rules - you've gotta hop on Anther's, unlock customs (gl), and see if someone is available to fight you. Say goodbye to the convenience of easy&quick online For Glory matches that make Smash 4 actually feel somewhat modern as an online multiplayer game. Get used to playing Smash 4 online includes empty moments of waiting for someone to be available to fight in the With Friends lobby.
These are cons and barriers that aren't mentioned, yet are important if we're going to not be slightly insular in our thought processes and think about how these choices affect other players.

It makes for a different experience than the one we were lucky to have during Melee or Brawl, where just changing the rules to 'Stock' and turning items off was enough to be playing within the competitive metagame. There is a barrier in Smash 4 if customs-on is the competitive metagame.

Right, I appreciate your point 100% and think it's really important.

That said, we don't cater tourney rulesets exclusively to the least common denominator to avoid alienating casual players. Otherwise, we'd play with items and no team attack.

That fact that we have a new casual-competitive, faux-competitive, semi-competitive, or whatever-you-want-to-call-it-competitive tier of players doesn't change anything.

For sure which is why I wouldn't advise changing tourney rules for that reason. But, for me at least, I definitely weigh it in with the pros and cons before I start telling myself and other that Customs-On doesn't have cons or important-to-note barriers of entry.


For example: Encouraging a friend to play Smash 4 competitively would be easy with customs off, but with customs on I've got to tell him he's got to unlock all the customs, play on Anther's Ladder instead of For Glory from now on (unattractive offer for modern gamers and people who play other fighting games online), etcetera.

 

[Nabbitnator]

This

When will you people wake up? There is nothing wrong with the game. The problem arises because we as a community are trying to make this game competitive when it inherently isn't. It was the same with Brawl and yes Melee as well.

You are taking a house cat and trying to say it's a lion and then you get upset when you keep finding evidence, that it is indeed STILL a house cat.

The game is what it is. No it will not die. Shut up. Just shut up. You think after the fiasco that was the Brawl meta (read as MK, IC's, Ally's Snake, a bit of Falco, a dash of Diddy, Mikeneko's Marth, and ESAM's Pikachu) that THIS game will die?

lol. This community will play w/e Nintendo makes and puts Smash in the title. Yes it's sad, but it's true.

I will tell you exactly what will happen. There will be two metas and two communities. A custom meta and a vanilla meta. Why? Because the game DOES have issues when played competitively. Because there are just too many voices and valid opinions on both sides to be able to decide which is the correct way to play. Because there is no true correct way to play, and because the game was intended to be able to be played in many many different ways and balanced around MANY different concepts and variables, not just 1v1 on "neutral stages".

The game after a year or two will be much more solid. Nintendo seems intent on removing jank so I wouldnt get riled up over tactics that seem too strong for too little effort. Everyone needs to relax with the LGL stuff and not take it seriously.

Is a ledge grab limit admiting defeat? Depends on what you mean. If an arbitrary rule created to deal with a powerful tactic that most of the cast can't fight, because the designers didn't think people would take their casual party game seriously and abuse obvious design flaws in a non-competitive game, then yes.

We have been admitting defeat since the day we decided to take this series and play for money.

BTW customs should be on because more characters become more fun. Period.

Like my status.

You know you want too.

I've been a bit busy lately to look at what is happening competitively. There are two meta's now?

 

[Ulevo]

Honestly, I feel like a lot of this back-and-forth between pro-customs and pro-vanilla is helping to highlight one of Shaya's points: the rigidity and steadfastness of the pro-customs side will likely hurt their cause in the practical sense. The legality of customs isn't going to be determined by a bunch of "objective" arguments about why customs are better, it's probably going to be decided by politics and which side can better sway TOs, entrants, and viewers. I think it's fairly evident that some pro-customs theorists don't care about politics at all, and are pretty bad at it; this also seems fairly localized to Smashboards, customs supporters elsewhere seem more persuasive, likely because they're less "objective" in their thinking.

I think that customs supporters have to realize that this isn't mathematics, this is politics. A persuasive argument is often better than a correct argument (not that these are mutually exclusive). Reading @ Budget Player Cadet_ 's posts don't persuade me to support customs, even if his points are solid.

Kind of late to the party, but my 2 cents.

I highly suggest people pay attention to this post. This is the very reason why Brawl versus Melee turned in to a **** storm. Certain people who were very vocal, typically new, bad at political persuasion and objective discussion were incredibly adamant about their position at the early developments of Brawls life cycle, and it got to a point where even when a good point was made it fell on deaf ears because people were tired of listening to those who resort to being incredibly abrasive and obnoxious as a means to get their points across rather than rationally explaining their perspectives.

I can easily see pro and anti-custom debates turning out very similarly if people can't learn to try and keep a proper perspective on this while listening to those opposing views on the opposite side of the argument. And for those of you who are pro-custom (I'm neutral), you better pay attention because if one of the metagames have to go because we all can't get along like nice children, it won't be vanilla.

tl;dr don't do what @ Budget Player Cadet_ does. Do what @Amazing Ampharos does.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Im not anti-customs but if this is how the strategy plays out the logic is sound and semi-damning.

It's not, and I'll say it as often as I have to. That's what makes this so depressing - people are complaining about a strategy with a trivial counter as though it was MK ledgestalling in Brawl. It's not.

 

[BSP]

I'm neutral to customs as of late, but I think it's important to remember we can play Smash however we want. Others already touched on this, but we've got to remember that we're the ones making this game competitive and there won't be clear cut rules and right/wrong answers for everything. At the end of the day, all that really matters is what the TO(s) wants his/her/their tournament to be. Being unified would be alright, I guess, but I don't think it's the end of the world if we aren't. If players really hate a direction, they'll stop showing up.

 

[Conda]

I'm neutral to customs as of late, but I think it's important to remember we can play Smash however we want. Others already touched on this, but we've got to remember that we're the ones making this game competitive and there won't be clear cut rules and right/wrong answers for everything. At the end of the day, all that really matters is what the TO(s) wants his/her/their tournament to be. Being unified would be alright, I guess, but I don't think it's the end of the world if we aren't. If players really hate a direction, they'll stop showing up.

As Smash grows, nationals becomes a more prominent part of the competitive scene, and a unified ruleset becomes critical.

We haven't reached the point where forming a unified international ruleset is practical. When visiting an out-of-country tournament (ie Japan), you expect the rules to be slightly different than what your national competitive community has agreed upon (of which Smashboards is at the core, proudly). The fact that the game defaults to 2 stock helped the community find its way internationally, with Japan adopting it. They went a bit too far at first, also adopting For Glory's 'Omega Only' rules, which our community didn't do. A unified ruleset would have to find a way to compromise or choose the best pieces from each ruleset.

Locally, though, the same thing happens when a national tournament comes around (many of which people from other countries visit, kind of making them international tournaments in a way). With two different rulesets (customs on and off) alive, they will clash when national tournaments have to choose their ruleset.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If equipment were replaced by just "+15 Attack, Defense, or Speed" it would be an interesting and workable system. It would have some issues, but if the numbers were balanced decently and if selection was implemented well (in the game natively) could do more good than harm.

Think Pokemon EVs or League of Legend Rune/Masteries. Both systems have issues and could be seriously streamlined, but ultimately help high-level play more than they hurt.
.

Pokemon is exactly what I think of.
I don't see Pokemon as a game favorable to modern ideas of competitive gaming. Its competitive because people want it to be not because it is tailored to be.
EVs, are one thing, IVs are another, abilities are another. Proc rates are another....

If you compare equipment to Pokemon equipment is no worse. Especially within 1v1 restriction instead of doubles in pkmn.

However I also look as equipment being a very handheld thing. Trying to get the right IVs with correct nature and correct ability so that you can begin EV training bar you needing to of bred egg moves and any other steps needed to get the moves and items you need.
Lol then you get flinch haxed by a jirachi after its all said and done.

Doesn't make these systems bad but they don't fit the ideology we approach games with now competitively. Smash itself is in a similar ligh

Not that I meant to get into a spiel about equipment but I perceive it and custom moves as a very Pokemon-esque addition.

Frankly when it comes to Kirby I don't figure he was given his fair dues before the patch. He's received notable improvements and its probably the best time to play Kirby since 64.
Tempted to say he is stronger then shulk and Kirbys MU against Sheik is more relevant.
Im shying away from jumping inhale now, its closer to a side-grade now which frankly is what all customs should be.

 

[Conda]

Why is Shulk always mentioned when Kirby is being talked about? Because he can use the monado ability? That has nothing to do with comparing them separately as characters who aren't fighting each other. This has always confused me, its like players have started comparing them like they're bros, the way we also kind of feel about Charizard & Bowser.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Why is Shulk always mentioned when Kirby is being talked about? Because he can use the monado ability? That has nothing to do with comparing them separately as characters who aren't fighting each other. This has always confused me, its like players have started comparing them like they're bros, the way we also kind of feel about Charizard & Bowser.

I play them both so I'm always weighing them against each other, unfortunate habit.

 

[Flamecircle]

Pokemon is exactly what I think of.
I don't see Pokemon as a game favorable to modern ideas of competitive gaming. Its competitive because people want it to be not because it is tailored to be.
EVs, are one thing, IVs are another, abilities are another. Proc rates are another....

If you compare equipment to Pokemon equipment is no worse. Especially within 1v1 restriction instead of doubles in pkmn.

Smash Equipment no worse than Pokemon? I just don't think that's true at all. Pokemon may have more variables to change, but those variables don't change anywhere remotely nearly as much about the core gameplay. Most data about a pokemon can be figured out in one turn. You can't do anything like that in a real-time game.

 

[Ffamran]

Question: Are pivot grabs situational or something? I don't see them often or notice them being used often unless the commentator points it out or I see the pivot which is pretty much telegraphing at that point. I ask because of these:

Basically if your opponent exists they get grabbed

I guess...

For some characters like Captain Falcon, Greninja, Fox, and Meta Knight, pivot grabs won't mean much since their dash grabs are just amazing, but some could make use of the range.

 

[David Viran]

Did anybody hear what zero said after sandstorm? Well he said he didn't think sheik nor Diddy were best in the game.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sonic had a lot of reason to go for pivot grabs to get his back to the ledge, and he had the speed to do it well.

In general though, they're mostly reactive roll/landing punishes. I'm trying to get better using them, essentially since duck hunt has such a ridiculous pivot grab, and he has such a hard time punishing rolls, but yea. People need to start using them more.

 

[Ffamran]

Did anybody hear what zero said after sandstorm? Well he said he didn't think sheik nor Diddy were best in the game.

Yeah, I remember. ZeRo said what he viewed was the top five had Sheik as #5 if I remember correctly and Rosalina is somewhere in the upper 3. Eh, Dabuz didn't believe Rosalina was top 3 or 5 when he was asked a while ago, so whatever. I'd rather way for MU evaluations or something more researched.

Sonic had a lot of reason to go for pivot grabs "get his back to the ledge, and he had the speed to do it well"

In general though, they're mostly reactive roll/landing punishes. I'm trying to get better using them, essentially since duck hunt has such a ridiculous pivot grab, and he has such a hard time punishing rolls, but yea. People need to start using them more.

I think everyone has ridiculous pivot grab ranges. Excluding tethers, someone - I think it was Lavani - said DK and Bowser have the most range which the gif showed as he beat Link's standing tether grab.

So, they're more situational, but then there's perfect pivot grabbing which is probably also situational and character dependent.

 

[Antonykun]

I think pivot grabs are long to make up for the fact you are moving backwards to do them

 

[meleebrawler]

I think pivot grabs are long to make up for the fact you are moving backwards to do them

Probably the basic idea behind that is moving back to avoid an attack and then retaliating with a grab.

 

[Ffamran]

I think pivot grabs are long to make up for the fact you are moving backwards to do them

It's funny since in Brawl, they were faster. For reference, Brawl Falco's pivot grab was frames 9-10 which is faster than his SSB4 dash grab while his Brawl dash grab is the same speed as his SSB4 pivot grab. So, they got flipped around. Eh, I guess you could dash dance and juke a pivot grab, but I don't really know.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Smash Equipment no worse than Pokemon? I just don't think that's true at all. Pokemon may have more variables to change, but those variables don't change anywhere remotely nearly as much about the core gameplay. Most data about a pokemon can be figured out in one turn. You can't do anything like that in a real-time game.

Spoiler

I disagree. Equipment is strong, its RNG based on acquisition and potency, its effects themselves are possibly unreasonable not that I delve deep into it. Then again...pokemon also has plenty of RNG, with high potency, that can change a match in multiple situations. Only difference? I can turn these off in Smash and I can't in pokemon. I'm working with 6 units all featuring IV's, Natures, and abilities which are handed to me by RNG (that can be weighted), whom then have a sizeable pool each of moves to use, items to hold and EVs to train.

Let me correct your statement.
Most data about a pokemon can be inferred in one turn. I can't see its IVs or EVs, hell I can't see its Nature or ability. Now Its ability may have an effect that will obviously reveal itself to me (Hello Drought, or hell Poison Heal for instance) and items can be in the same boat (leftovers/berries/life orb for example). I'll presume "probably has these 4 moves, though it might also have X or Y so keep an eye out for that" based on MU knowledge.

I can infer what equipment and customs you have as well. The custom abilities and the Custom moves will reveal themselves in time. The statistical bonuses however are hidden so I can't reasonably figure that out within 30 seconds.

--------------------------------------------
Smash: 1 character, 4 moves to change with 3 options each, 3 equipment slots with an assload of different equipment that changes attributes notable. Everything but the character is randomly acquired.

Pokemon: 6 characters (if talking 1v1 singles), 24 moves amongst them all to change with an assload of options, 6-18 ability possibilities amongst them all, EV's to train, IV's which are randomly sorted out on capture. All have 1 item slot as well. Finally 20 (well technically 25) nature possibilities that each one of those 6 will have. This is in addition to an inherit crit rate.

Lets put an example of how this can work. Mind if I use the Advance generation for this comparison?
The opposition switches a Tyranitar to my Blissey. What I don't realize is that this Tyranitar is a) a mixed attacker or b) a full special attack Tyrannitar. I EV trained my Blissey for physical, mind you it has imperfect IV's of some sort.
All of this I did not know, I could infer it based on the reality that mixed T-tars existed, but then I'm still forced to make a prediction which may back-fire. The reality is that it was a full special attack T-tar and I just switched out my special wall...
I bring in Skarmory hoping to roar out a D-dance set, and eat a Critical Fire Blast that burns to boot, on the switch in. Well wish I had the clairvoyance to know Im facing a Modest T-tar.

Think I rather would of gone "why the hell is this Ganon moving so ****ing fast"...must be speed equip, since I'll have visually noticed that from the start given the distance apart we start at, which at least gives me a much greater clue of where he is statistically.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I went to two custom tournaments this past weekend and when I talked to people the majority of them were pro customs. The people who weren't pro customs had characters they felt didn't benefit from customs.

I definitely think that customs is the way to go moving forward. It's learning the customs which is difficult. It changes MU's and can take you off guard. However, that's part of the game. I think the anti custom crowd is lazy.

 

[Cool]

So, anybody seen Megaman's new DGCGT tech?

 

[Pyr]

Question: Are pivot grabs situational or something?
*snip*

Quick shout out to this Omega stage being amazing for testing distances due to it's layout. I never even knew.

I went to two custom tournaments this past weekend and when I talked to people the majority of them were pro customs. The people who weren't pro customs had characters they felt didn't benefit from customs.

I definitely think that customs is the way to go moving forward. It's learning the customs which is difficult. It changes MU's and can take you off guard. However, that's part of the game. I think the anti custom crowd is lazy.

Well, if you go to a tournament that uses a specific mode, and then look for support of that mode, you're going to find it. I really don't think it says much.

As for thinking the anti-customs crowd is lazy, na. Not even close. Not unless having an objective view is lazy.

 

[ZarroTsu]

The big thing about equips imo is they could have been handled so much better.

What is honestly the practical point of random values on certain pieces? Moreover, what is the practicality of these points reaching upwards of 200 when there's very little reason for it? What does that 200 mean? +200% to that stat? Regardless of this, adding the special abilities to them of various subtractive or additive values just kind of makes the whole thing overwhelming far more than it should be.

If I were a man put in charge of creating this thing, I'd have (a) actually balanced the addition/subtraction amounts excluding special abilities, and (b) gave these points more effect, but limited the total values to +/- 10 each, with each point contributing about 10% of the base or something. Each piece of equipment would have at least +1/-1, and at most +3/-3. In the event of special abilities, the weaker ones would subtract 1 from the additive, and the most powerful ones would subtract 3, and subsequently only be available on the +3/-3 pieces.

So **** like Smooth Lander would risk -30% to one of the three stats with no statistical benefit, but a lot of people could cope with taking 30% more damage or dealing 30% less damage or jumping/walking 30% less distance with the benefit of acting faster out of landing lag.

I don't know why they had to turn the thing into an overly complicated point system with no deficit to anything. If there were deficits, I'm certain we'd see people actually try out equipment in customs.


If anyone mods the game in the future, please try the above out for equipment. In my mind it would actually make that viable and *gasp* possibly fun to use.

 

[meleebrawler]

The big thing about equips imo is they could have been handled so much better.

What is honestly the practical point of random values on certain pieces? Moreover, what is the practicality of these points reaching upwards of 200 when there's very little reason for it? What does that 200 mean? +200% to that stat? Regardless of this, adding the special abilities to them of various subtractive or additive values just kind of makes the whole thing overwhelming far more than it should be.

If I were a man put in charge of creating this thing, I'd have (a) actually balanced the addition/subtraction amounts excluding special abilities, and (b) gave these points more effect, but limited the total values to +/- 10 each, with each point contributing about 10% of the base or something. Each piece of equipment would have at least +1/-1, and at most +3/-3. In the event of special abilities, the weaker ones would subtract 1 from the additive, and the most powerful ones would subtract 3, and subsequently only be available on the +3/-3 pieces.

So **** like Smooth Lander would risk -30% to one of the three stats with no statistical benefit, but a lot of people could cope with taking 30% more damage or dealing 30% less damage or jumping/walking 30% less distance with the benefit of acting faster out of landing lag.

I don't know why they had to turn the thing into an overly complicated point system with no deficit to anything. If there were deficits, I'm certain we'd see people actually try out equipment in customs.


If anyone mods the game in the future, please try the above out for equipment. In my mind it would actually make that viable and *gasp* possibly fun to use.

Because Sakurai wanted to handle equipment the same way he handled weapons in Kid Icarus Uprising: random values
with higher difficulties generally earning greater equipment.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I have no adequate way to respond to that.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

More like equipment/customs is just another collect-a-thon, to increase the longevity of the game and give you something to strive for other then just bopping each other in Vs mode, akin to trophies. Its not made to suit competition in the first place, if it so happened to be then great, if it didn't he didn't care. He's just providing you options. It so happens that a lot of NA likes customs, no problem and it doesn't do any wrong, we shy away from equipment again no problem. He didn't aim to create some solid system for equipment because it wasn't a big deal from the start lol.
Which is again why you should look at it like pokemon. If *you* want to compete in a system that isn't tailored specifically for competition, you're absolutely free to....or you could ignore it entirely. IDGAF what anyone does on the side. There's a smooth lander only following on these boards, I don't know how large they are. The imbalances are rather arbitrary to me once you accept you want to go that far anyways.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Quick shout out to this Omega stage being amazing for testing distances due to it's layout. I never even knew.



Well, if you go to a tournament that uses a specific mode, and then look for support of that mode, you're going to find it. I really don't think it says much.

As for thinking the anti-customs crowd is lazy, na. Not even close. Not unless having an objective view is lazy.

I wasn't looking for support just asking people how they felt about customs. You can have your views but depending on the reason for your views it can be lazy. Such as not wanting to grind customs or not learning how the MU changes with customs. It's a lot more information to absorb.

For instance let's say your play group doesn't use customs. That's not going to teach you how to learn the custom MU vs a certain character. Some characters change a lot with customs.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

More like equipment/customs is just another collect-a-thon, to increase the longevity of the game and give you something to strive for other then just bopping each other in Vs mode,

Because smash really has a longevity problem.

 

[Pyr]

I wasn't looking for support just asking people how they felt about customs. You can have your views but depending on the reason for your views it can be lazy. Such as not wanting to grind customs or not learning how the MU changes with customs. It's a lot more information to absorb.

For instance let's say your play group doesn't use customs. That's not going to teach you how to learn the custom MU vs a certain character. Some characters change a lot with customs.

My group does play customs, luckily. I unlocked them all and set the Evo sets to my system. The grind is AFK-able, which means it's Runescape levels of effort needed. Almost none, but a fair bit of time needed instead. I don't really include the lazy peoples in the customs debate when I read discussions based on customs. This is in much the same way I also only glance over "it's better. Deal with it." It's an issue where neither side is willing to look at the other and try to see why they have that view.

Realistically, though, customs only change a few matchups in the entire cast for me. Maybe it's a Luigi thing, but only a few matchups fundamentally change. Also, Luigi's customs are kinda meh, so I can play in both formats and do equally well. Only Iceball is worth considering, and maybe one of the side-bs.

 

[Thinkaman]

Equipment, with its grind-based random stats and imbalanced effects, is clearly designed as a system for single player and amiibos.

See also: stickers in Brawl.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

My group does play customs, luckily. I unlocked them all and set the Evo sets to my system. The grind is AFK-able, which means it's Runescape levels of effort needed. Almost none, but a fair bit of time needed instead. I don't really include the lazy peoples in the customs debate when I read discussions based on customs. This is in much the same way I also only glance over "it's better. Deal with it." It's an issue where neither side is willing to look at the other and try to see why they have that view.

Realistically, though, customs only change a few matchups in the entire cast for me. Maybe it's a Luigi thing, but only a few matchups fundamentally change. Also, Luigi's customs are kinda meh, so I can play in both formats and do equally well. Only Iceball is worth considering, and maybe one of the side-bs.

I hear ya I been grinding customs lately and have yet to unlock them all. Although I'm almost there I just started using the equipment tr. But yeah with the custom debate there's also how we deal with the miis. Also I think teams should be done away with.