Character Competitive Impressions

[allshort17]

Is Morri-Dooming banned in UMVC3?

Bad example. Coupled with the ease of infinites and lack of backing from Capcom, UMVC3 is arguably dying. UMVC3 is actually a perfect example of how degenerate strategies are killing a game. The difference between UMVC3 and Smash 4 is that the degenerate strategies aren't also the top tier ones (barring hoo haa and spin dash).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Bad example. Coupled with the ease of infinites and lack of backing from Capcom, UMVC3 is arguably dying. UMVC3 is actually a perfect example of how degenerate strategies are killing a game. The difference between UMVC3 and Smash 4 is that the degenerate strategies aren't also the top tier ones (barring hoo haa and spin dash).

It's worth noting that UMvC3 has been out for much longer, and people have been able to find and refine those strategies in that time, something that has had comparatively little time to happen with Smash 4 so far.

 

[Shaya]

Well great, then the solution is really really "tell them they're scrubs and ignore them". Because they are. Because, newsflash, anyone who thinks like that is a ****ty scrub who has no business having any input whatsoever on what the ruleset should be.

Yet you've never been a position to do just that, and all those scrubs who have are doing it wrong.

...C'mon, man. You know exactly what we're talking about when we say "broken".

All we're ever circling around is semantic arguments over terms. I don't think these things are broken yet I still don't think they're good for the game. What do you respond to with that? You tell me I'm calling things broken and that I'm a scrub. You're right that this isn't really a solid argument.

The people who want to play the damn game. I don't give a rats *** about people who just prefer customs be not on. I disagree, but you know what? That's fine. That's their right, and it really is sort of like having items on vs. items off - one is probably the better meta, but we still have to choose one way or another. What bugs me is this ****ty attitude that so many people have. As I keep saying, "X is broken" "here's how you beat X" "X is broken" "yeah you're right let's ban X" is not a conversation we should ever be having in a competitive scene. Ever. If Sirlin updated his position, I'm not sure why; I don't think he's right if he thinks that banning things that are not broken (and indeed, are barely even competitive) based on the perception of a handful of people who are objectively bad at the game is a good idea. Morridoom is infinitely more bull**** than anything this game has produced. Zero May Cry is infinitely more bull**** than anything this game has produced. And yet, somehow, Marvel is still kicking with no bans whatsoever. Go figure.

That's not what I said at ... whatever.
Good thing Marvel is a game almost dead outside of evo. Capcom wishes they could do more, I hear Disney copyright issues are awesome.

Btw, those people objectively bad at the game? Are the ones also winning tournaments.
Your "here's how your beat X" is almost verbatim to what I tell others who ask me for advice. But I also tell them "it can be frustrating to deal with", but never have I said "yeah customs are stupid we should ban them" (to me that would be a sickening way to respond to someone wanting advice). But here we are discussing something beyond playing to win mentality and you just don't seem to want to acknowledge it (ALTHOUGH I DID GET YOU JUST A LITTLE BIT ON AT LEAST ONE TINY THING, *phew* success~!)

 

[busken]

What character is the best at stage control in smash 4? Some people say Shulk, diddy, and even Link but what do you guys think?

 

[GeneralLedge]

Hey guys how do I keep my opponent from shielding? They don't take damage when I hit their shield, and then I get hurt and lose. Should we ban this?


[Note to self: learn to B-reverse more optimally so I can land behind opponents in a better position to beat grabs]

 

[Cassio]

Like I said, it's not about whether or not the strategy is overpowered or unbeatable. I hate aligning myself with Smogon politics, but abilities like Moody were banned for the very reason Denti outlines here. Toxic, inconsistent gameplay requiring minimal skill and a linear strategy. I would argue custom Villarger is less likely to produce inconsistent results, but the issue still exists.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that things do not always have to be broken in order for them to require a policy, it's just a good idea to usually lean in that direction of policy making because otherwise it creates a precedent where banning for trivial things becomes okay when it really should not be.

Though its ultimately subjective I agree with the sentiment.

I do think it's a bigger issue however when it may lead to inconsistent results; and I do think if the scenario denti described is true that is the territory we've entered. Some of the best player to player games have a degree of RNG where each player is forced to make informed guesses to win a particular exchange. Smash typically has loads of these exchanges. Any given victory in an exchange can be attributed to luck, but over the course of many, many exchanges skill gaps start to develop. Gameplay that limits these exchanges is more likely to lead to less consistent results which is the issue we run into in the scenario described. I cant say I know enough about customs villager to determine if this is the case but it seems to be the common complaint.

 

[Shaya]

What character is the best at stage control in smash 4? Some people say Shulk, diddy, and even Link but what do you guys think?

Hmm...
probably in my mind.
Sheik kinda makes me feel she'd be in that boat too. There's something about bouncing fish and needles that scream "please god help me where do I go?".
I think Link does do a good job of slowing down a lot of characters with boomerangs but.. hmm.. I guess something feels like it's missing.

Hey guys how do I keep my opponent from shielding? They don't take damage when I hit their shield, and then I get hurt and lose. Should we ban this?


[Note to self: learn to B-reverse more optimally so I can land behind opponents in a better position to beat grabs]

Crossing over really is the "best" choice and when you're conditioning an opponent while you have any control you should almost -always- cross over. Once the player adapts to this you get a lot more interactions you can outplay someone in (I love turning around before shielding because I expect the cross over, holy damn it makes me happy).

 

[busken]

With Jump and air slash shulk can cover alot of vertical space and his aerials also have alot of range as well. i guess his only short coming is his slow frame data? I noticed all the characters you mentioned have projectiles which I don't think is obilgatory. I hate to cross games but in melee marth had really good stage control, and ike right now in PM seems pretty good too. I wonder what are the key compenents that a character needs to effectively control and dictate space?

 

[DunnoBro]

If customs are on, duck hunt is bar none the best stage control character who destroys anyone else who tries to challenge him in that realm.

This may be character bias, but just comparing arsenal to arsenal, since zigzag can't be gpulled/pocketed/reflected reliably, and mega gunmen shut out all non-piercing projectiles, he definitely isn't losing to anyone elses stage control consistently.

The only matchup I feel custom DHD is ever forced to approach is vs Olimar, since pikmin ignore gunmen, and duck hunt has a lot of trouble getting the pikmin off due to no quick, meaty aerials to hit them with. (Needs to full hop nair to not get landing lag...)

(Wario is also odd, because you can camp him but don't really want to.)

Customs off, probably Rosalina, since her stage control can never be threatened in default. She always has to be rushed down. Though I think R.O.B. actually plays more of the stage control game, and Rosalina is more "zone" control without luma warp.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

We talking about stage control characters? Toon Link comes to mind for me. He has good bombs and bommerangs that are better for followups too.

 

[busken]

Just to make sure our definition of stage control is consistent, when I say stage control I mean the ability to lock off or control an area of space in such a way that the opponent has to take a considerable risk to escape. tbh i dunno much about duck hunt but do you think that he is capable of controlling an area of space like from ledge to almost middle of stage to point where the opponent has to resort to an option that is risky and punishable?

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, I don't necessarily think that with Shulk. Semi-reactable frame data in some cases (at least with jump aerials you can anticipate). He is really good at ledge guarding though (which is a stage control type of thing), long range disjoints that can cover multiple options at once. Diddy definitely has this in more places.

With that in mind then I start to think you mean "best trappers", in which case Marth is traditionally the golden child of it from previous games. I would say Zero Suit, Sheik, Mii Brawler and Rosalina are some of the best in the game.

In Brawl I would put Falco and Snake as the characters with the best stage control as I would perceive it. Falco because lasers. Snake because dem disjoints that killed plus grenades plus explosions.

 

[Nu~]

Surprised no one mentioned Pac-Man.

His stage control is disgusting with meteor trampoline, on fire hydrant, and any variation of fruit.
It's hard to approach when you can be buried, blasted back by flames, or dragged into a smash attack by a freaky strawberry. He can even deter other forms of stage control with his galaxian, bell, and key which eat other projectiles and have piercing effects.

It does take time to set it all up at once, but each tool is already dangerous enough on their own to keep the opponent at bay.

 

[Conda]

To talk about the customs topic @ Shaya touched on intelligently.

I know this isn't of the demographic in this thread to some extent, but I can tell you that some of my viewers on youtube and players who are interested but not parttaking in the customs environment feel left out, because For Glory is -the- prominent way to play competitive Smash and not having customs makes it feel like 'pointless practice' after a certain point. Anther's Ladder and 'with friends' play isn't widespread enough to have enough market penetration - For Glory is still the 1v1 go-to game mode for most Smash 4 players worldwide.

As a result, the current tournament landscape feels very separate and disconnected from the way they play. And perhaps it ends up feeling less accessible or interesting. Watching customs-on tournaments, for many people, feels like watching a different game - which is good, but also bad. By focusing on customs-on, we accidentally alienate due to lack of penetration customs-on 1v1s have in the overall Smash playerbase.

There's also the result of people feeling like customs-on tournaments aren't helpful or interesting to them due to being stick mostly having to play For Glory. Playing Marth, DK, and other lackluster character whom are improved by customs can feel really crappy, because they are left with the non-viable non-meta versions of the characters. If they're ever represented in a tournament, it's gonna be the customs-on versions of those characters. That's another salty side effect for the general 1v1 playerbase in Smash 4.
This isn't anyone's fault but the developers', the customs-on meta is not responsible. But this is an effect of having the customs-on meta be separate from how the majority of competitive-minded 1v1 players in the public sphere play Smash 4. So when they watch tournaments, it feels separated from the experience of Smash 4 that they're locked in to.

I explained some of the consequences of this above. As a commentator, I've noticed this very clearly because the non-customs meta ends up having a tainted air of "non-meta", and players who play non-customs 1v1s in the playerbase end up feeling like the tournament scene is separate, in more ways than it was in any other Smash game so far.

Those are my 2cents.

Surprised no one mentioned Pac-Man.

His stage control is disgusting with meteor trampoline, on fire hydrant, and any variation of fruit.
It's hard to approach when you can be buried, blasted back by flames, or dragged into a smash attack by a freaky strawberry. He can even deter other forms of stage control with his galaxian, bell, and key which eat other projectiles and have piercing effects.

It does take time to set it all up at once, but each tool is already dangerous enough on their own to keep the opponent at bay.

I'd add Duck Hunt in there too.

Most players, even at tournaments, focus too much on his Side B as it's the most traditional of his projectiles, but it's also the reason for so many punishes and stock deficits. The endlag on side b has caused so many matches to be loss, and players have to stop using it as much. Duck Hunt can excellently trap into grabs and pokes, which is what he should focus on. Less clay pidgeons, because that's how you make yourself very easy to bait and punish.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just found out that Little Mac D-Tilt has even better frame advantage than I thought--After a shield drop, it's -7 on block, and when well-spaced, some (I guess I don't know if it's most) Standing Grabs won't reach him, and all Dash Grabs are Frame 8 or later in Smash 4, meaning that Jab beats the most threatening/common response to a shielded D-Tilt, and with characters who have Frame 9 or later Dash Grabs (of which there are many: Bowser, Bowser Jr., Captain Falcon, Charizard, Donkey Kong, Duck Hunt, Falco, Fox, Ganondorf, Greninja, Ike, King Dedede, Little Mac, Meta Knight, Pac-Man, Palutena, R.O.B., Samus, Shulk, Sonic, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Yoshi, Zelda), a spotdodge also beats it and many other immediate attacks while giving you strong punishes afterward, creating a pretty safe mix-up that discourages opponents from grabbing or using immediate pokes to punish, helping Mac to deal with one of his great banes (grabs).

D-Tilt also has the advantage of putting Mac close to the ground, so it keeps him protected from many out-of-shield aerials.

D-Tilt also has an animation that lasts only 21 frames, so a well-timed D-Tilt seems to hit Ledge Jumps while giving Mac enough time to Jab or tilt an opponent who decided to Ledge Climb instead. D-Tilt's range and low hitbox height also makes it work well against some Ledge Drop -> double-jump options, so it may very well be one of the best ledgeguard tools for the number of options it covers reliably, rather than just because of its combo potential...and the knockback buff to his Forward-B in the most recent patch has great synergy with this; YOLO-looking Forward-B follow-ups will KO before triple digits if it's fresh and off the ledge like that.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Maybe commentators could endorse Anther's during various tournaments to let For Glory hounds know that there is a superior alternative? I was reluctant to try it at first but after a few beautifully lagless matches I became hooked.

Simple endorsement: "Hey guys are you sick of playing really laggy games with spammers? Play on this website where you can report connection quality and how much fun you had! Also, customs!"

EDIT: Also I think a major reason people don't use it is because they think it's some sort of add-on for the game itself instead of just a dynamic chat room.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I feel like I can't ever shield against a competent Duck Hunt

 

[Thinkaman]

D-Tilt also has an animation that lasts only 21 frames

Which means it also soundly beats every spot-dodge and roll in the game! What a great move; very important for Mac.

 

[outfoxd]

Just to make sure our definition of stage control is consistent, when I say stage control I mean the ability to lock off or control an area of space in such a way that the opponent has to take a considerable risk to escape. tbh i dunno much about duck hunt but do you think that he is capable of controlling an area of space like from ledge to almost middle of stage to point where the opponent has to resort to an option that is risky and punishable?

Even with a baired default reverse can and parking himself on the other side of the opponent, a DHD can make movements nerve wracking when he can either walk the can to you while he marches up, or bail himself out of punishes with a mutual can

 

[Conda]

I know this isn't of the demographic in this thread to some extent, but I can tell you that some of my viewers on youtube and players who are interested but not parttaking in the customs environment feel left out, because For Glory is -the- prominent way to play competitive Smash and not having customs makes it feel like 'pointless practice' after a certain point. Anther's Ladder and 'with friends' play isn't widespread enough to have enough market penetration - For Glory is still the 1v1 go-to game mode for most Smash 4 players worldwide.

As a result, the current tournament landscape feels very separate and disconnected from the way they play. And perhaps it ends up feeling less accessible or interesting. Watching customs-on tournaments, for many people, feels like watching a different game - which is good, but also bad. By focusing on customs-on, we accidentally alienate due to lack of penetration customs-on 1v1s have in the overall Smash playerbase.

There's also the result of people feeling like customs-on tournaments aren't helpful or interesting to them due to being stick mostly having to play For Glory. Playing Marth, DK, and other lackluster character whom are improved by customs can feel really crappy, because they are left with the non-viable non-meta versions of the characters. If they're ever represented in a tournament, it's gonna be the customs-on versions of those characters. That's another salty side effect for the general 1v1 playerbase in Smash 4.
This isn't anyone's fault but the developers', the customs-on meta is not responsible. But this is an effect of having the customs-on meta be separate from how the majority of competitive-minded 1v1 players in the public sphere play Smash 4. So when they watch tournaments, it feels separated from the experience of Smash 4 that they're locked in to.

I explained some of the consequences of this above. As a commentator, I've noticed this very clearly because the non-customs meta ends up having a tainted air of "non-meta", and players who play non-customs 1v1s in the playerbase end up feeling like the tournament scene is separate, in more ways than it was in any other Smash game so far.

Those are my 2cents.

To add to this post, which was a response to @ Shaya

Due to what I've seen as a commentator on youtube, I wish customs were on in For Glory so the majority of players could enjoy plentiful 1v1s with the movesets that tournaments use (the loading screen could tell you quickly what players were using so there were no surprises.).
As it is now for many players, tournaments feel separate to the way they play, and it ends up creating a barrier.

The competitive scene's customs-on metagame makes 'Competitive Smash 4' wholly different game from the Smash 4 most people get to play easily online. That's not inherently a bad thing, it's just that there are some accidental consequences, such as competitive smash losing accessibility to most Smash players (enjoy unlocking and practicing a fully different metagame before coming to any tournaments), and making tournament streams/videos less interesting as they aren't relatable to their own gameplay experience.

Solution? Sites like reddit.com/smashconnect and Anther's Ladder. But the convenience and widespread application is still missing and likely will never be achieved, which is a huge shame.

A non-customs meta definitely 'solves' the issue, but causes its own issues: the opportunity cost is high - we don't get to play with customs, which sucks. It's a decision we'll make and the consequences will either be 1) less accessibility and relatability to Smashers outside of the competitive scene and Anther's Ladder, or 2) we don't get to use customs in tournaments.

 

[Terotrous]

The custom meta should be played on the merit that it adds a new enjoyable experience people want to explore and enjoy, not as a means to "balance" the vanilla meta. That argument was flawed from the start for many reasons

The problem is that's how it was sold to most of the community. "Hate Diddy Kong? Turn on customs! He's slightly less OP that way!"

If we agree that it is a separate metagame (rather than a superior metagame), that would help, but then why is it the primary (and only) way that most majors are currently being run?

 

[Conda]

The problem is that's how it was sold to most of the community. "Hate Diddy Kong? Turn on customs! He's slightly less OP that way!"

If we agree that it is a separate metagame (rather than a superior metagame), that would help, but then why is it the primary (and only) way that most majors are currently being run?

The reality is that players can play without customs in a customs-on meta. Players aren't really 'forced' to use customs. However~~

The issue is when customs change the viability and metagame for their characters.
Try to find a guide in the near future that doesn't focus on Kong Cyclone, a competitive guide not focusing on Crescent Slash, or a competitive guide not focusing on Upper Cutter. The opportunity cost of alienating players who are limited to a customs-off metagame is there. 'Competitive Smash' will be 'Customs-On Smash', and anyone who is limited to customs-off for many legitimate reasons is left out of the party.

So while nobody is 'forced' to use customs in a customs-on metagame, they'll be pushed to by logical results of the customs-on metagame. It also makes it sting because the solution on Sakurai's end is so darn easy peasy. This is Smash 4's primary 'not considering competitive players' issue.

 

[Nobie]

Which means it also soundly beats every spot-dodge and roll in the game! What a great move; very important for Mac.

Every time I see a new Little Mac frame fact, it makes me forget about all of his air woes and think, "Wait, why is he not high tier again?"

 

[Djent]

I think "less accessibility and relatability" only seems like a major issue because having those things is actually an option for us this time around, since there's actually a decent online format for playing with strangers. The competitive smash scene has always differed markedly from much of casual play, and it's done fine. Obviously both accessibility and relatability are good for growing the scene, but they're far from essential.

Also, it's becoming increasingly clear that I am in the minority of people who would support customs regardless of balance. Unfortunately, the community seems to have embraced them as an unofficial patch, and not because they allow us to play our characters at their fullest potential.

Though a main would say that.

 

[Conda]

Every time I see a new Little Mac frame fact, it makes me forget about all of his air woes and think, "Wait, why is he not high tier again?"

Options. He has a lot of ground-based options that are amazing, but they're all ground-based options. Hard to mix up purely on that axis, as most great mix-up characters who have many options are characters whom have ground AND aerial options that they can use and get reward from.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The custom meta should be played on the merit that it adds a new enjoyable experience people want to explore and enjoy, not as a means to "balance" the vanilla meta. That argument was flawed from the start for many reasons, and I do not believe we should take a similar approach with policy to "balance" another meta by implementing rules to circumvent problems. Rules are put in place as a means to handle real issues you otherwise can't deal with without unreasonable compromise. I mean, what's next? Are we going to start talking about how much time the timer should have as a means to balance characters that resort to time outs?

If the game is imbalanced, let it be so. Hope for a balance patch that addresses customs. We have vanilla, which is shaping up to be a decently balanced game. I like custom moves just as much as other custom advocates, but if tactics like Kong Cyclone or Villager's tactics ruin the competitive integrity we shouldn't be dragged down in to the mud with it.

This

When will you people wake up? There is nothing wrong with the game. The problem arises because we as a community are trying to make this game competitive when it inherently isn't. It was the same with Brawl and yes Melee as well.

You are taking a house cat and trying to say it's a lion and then you get upset when you keep finding evidence, that it is indeed STILL a house cat.

The game is what it is. No it will not die. Shut up. Just shut up. You think after the fiasco that was the Brawl meta (read as MK, IC's, Ally's Snake, a bit of Falco, a dash of Diddy, Mikeneko's Marth, and ESAM's Pikachu) that THIS game will die?

lol. This community will play w/e Nintendo makes and puts Smash in the title. Yes it's sad, but it's true.

I will tell you exactly what will happen. There will be two metas and two communities. A custom meta and a vanilla meta. Why? Because the game DOES have issues when played competitively. Because there are just too many voices and valid opinions on both sides to be able to decide which is the correct way to play. Because there is no true correct way to play, and because the game was intended to be able to be played in many many different ways and balanced around MANY different concepts and variables, not just 1v1 on "neutral stages".

The game after a year or two will be much more solid. Nintendo seems intent on removing jank so I wouldnt get riled up over tactics that seem too strong for too little effort. Everyone needs to relax with the LGL stuff and not take it seriously.

Is a ledge grab limit admiting defeat? Depends on what you mean. If an arbitrary rule created to deal with a powerful tactic that most of the cast can't fight, because the designers didn't think people would take their casual party game seriously and abuse obvious design flaws in a non-competitive game, then yes.

We have been admitting defeat since the day we decided to take this series and play for money.

BTW customs should be on because more characters become more fun. Period.

Like my status.

You know you want too.

 

[RWB]

Are mii brawlers aerials capable of killing? Outside of piston punch/hurricane kick, his killing ability seems really atrocious.

Nair probably has the best straight up kill potential on the startup part(not the linger), but even that kills at 130 ish by the edge vs Mario.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Okay I'm going to TRY and piece together something on customs, and it's kind of how I thought about it from Day One.

If it's REALLY bad you might as well ban said custom. I see customs Villager brought up a lot and I suppose that's worth looking into. I don't necessarily agree with the idea of banning Kong Cyclone though (I think it loses a lot of its punch on flat stages with no platforms, for instance).

I think it's worth looking into not only what customs benefit who in the cast, but what they do to the players. If customs Villager really makes the game as Denti said (it may or may not, nobody knows!) then I think it's very important to look into it, discuss it, and very clearly find a solution for it. No use in arguing about being pro or anti or whatever about this, I'm sure regardless of stance it's pretty valid to look at if it's creating waves or discussions at a top level, I think.

I'm an advocate for having them on personally, they make Dr. Mario a lot more formidable and help me play my character better by introducing workable tools that don't give him free wins but rather help him overcome some very crippling problems that surface from a lack of design clarity (IMO).

This could've very well already been said in the course of this discussion but it's how I think. I don't think banning certain customs is bad or redundant, if it has to be done it has to be done for the sake of the metagame. It IS important not to do it too much or it becomes too much to remember or put stock into with a lot of specific rules that cover one way to play the game.

That's all I got in me....whew!

 

[DunnoBro]

Surprised no one mentioned Pac-Man.

His stage control is disgusting with meteor trampoline, on fire hydrant, and any variation of fruit.
It's hard to approach when you can be buried, blasted back by flames, or dragged into a smash attack by a freaky strawberry. He can even deter other forms of stage control with his galaxian, bell, and key which eat other projectiles and have piercing effects.

It does take time to set it all up at once, but each tool is already dangerous enough on their own to keep the opponent at bay.

I forgot about his customs, the fire hydrant is annoying as hell. It's at the perfect "kill/combo" knockback spectrum, and the fruit variations make it really scary to leave pacman alone.

I've never played against a pac using meteor competently, but just the default is a pain. I'd imagine the meteor/grounding one is even worse.

@ littleMac: I believe his only path to viability would be Grounding Blow + Rising Smash, and maybe Stun Lunge/Dash Counter to enable absurdly low% kills with rising smash. He simply needs to level the playing field with him getting juggled and edgeguarded so easily.

Yea, I can die at 40% because you threw me off the stage. But now, I can kill you consistently at the same percents because you air dodged like a buster.

It also gives him way stronger platform pressure. Like, if grounding blow or rising smash catch you, you're dead.

If it's REALLY bad you might as well ban said custom. I see customs Villager brought up a lot and I suppose that's worth looking into. I don't necessarily agree with the idea of banning Kong Cyclone though (I think it loses a lot of its punch on flat stages with no platforms, for instance).

There's only one stage with no platforms lol. And they strike it every time. (Even in default they strike FD)

Though duck hunt works kind of well, there's some jank he can do with the top left platforms but in general he hates the big stage and awkwardly placed platforms.

 

[TTTTTsd]

There's only one stage with no platforms lol. And they strike it every time. (Even in default they strike FD)

Though duck hunt works kind of well, there's some jank he can do with the top left platforms but in general he hates the big stage and awkwardly placed platforms.

From my experience while it can work on some other legal stages it is at its best and most prominent on Battlefield and potentially Smashville, but in general this is a pretty agreeable thing. Big stages/strange platforms or flat stages are bad for the move (they don't inherently ruin it but they hinder a lot of its really effective/goofy traits)

 

[Thinkaman]

@ littleMac: I believe his only path to viability would be Grounding Blow + Rising Smash, and maybe Stun Lunge/Dash Counter to enable absurdly low% kills with rising smash. He simply needs to level the playing field with him getting juggled and edgeguarded so easily.

Yea, I can die at 40% because you threw me off the stage. But now, I can kill you consistently at the same percents because you air dodged like a buster.

It also gives him way stronger platform pressure. Like, if grounding blow or rising smash catch you, you're dead.

Rising Smash is really really really bad, unfortunately. Rising Uppercut is frame 1 invincible and LM's only true anti-air option. Rising Smash is slower than average reaction time.

 

[DunnoBro]

Rising Smash is really really really bad, unfortunately. Rising Uppercut is frame 1 invincible and LM's only true anti-air option. Rising Smash is slower than average reaction time.

I've definitely been getting it off, but I understand it requires more obtuse set-ups than default. I just think that rising uppercut accomplishes very little, whereas this if set-ups can be consistently done would accomplish a lot.

To clarify though, I don't really believe this is an optimal strategy currently, I just believe that if little mac -can- be viable, it would be via a paradigm shift in playstyle like this.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

or a competitive guide not focusing on Upper Cutter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdGaZMX328

Is their a prize or something? I like prizes.

I don't look to customs for balance or a more exciting meta. Quite frankly I put customs and equipment in the same boat. Diversions which can be but are not obligated to be fun. I don't mind playing with them, but I don't think Vanilla is worse at all. Honestly so long as we don't bar Mii's from moves which is dumb given they're "create-a-fighter"'s from the start, I'll continue to participate in either. Granted I am more partial to Vanilla at the moment, while I supported the moveset project, it is far from flawless and I think I rather as a standard do Vanilla given the apparent trend for vanilla play worldwide after having attempted the customs scene for the past 3 months. Its just not as smooth a transition as I had hoped, even when I bring my 3ds.

 

[Conda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdGaZMX328

Is their a prize or something? I like prizes.

I don't look to customs for balance or a more exciting meta. Quite frankly I put customs and equipment in the same boat. Diversions which can be but are not obligated to be fun. I don't mind playing with them, but I don't think Vanilla is worse at all. Honestly so long as we don't bar Mii's from moves which is dumb given they're "create-a-fighter"'s from the start, I'll continue to participate in either. Granted I am more partial to Vanilla at the moment, while I supported the moveset project, it is far from flawless and I think I rather as a standard do Vanilla given the apparent trend for vanilla play worldwide after having attempted the customs scene for the past 3 months. Its just not as smooth a transition as I had hoped, even when I bring my 3ds.

I was talking about 'in the future' But thanks for posting a kirby guide nonetheless!

 

[Thinkaman]

I've definitely been getting it off, but I understand it requires more obtuse set-ups than default. I just think that rising uppercut accomplishes very little, whereas this if set-ups can be consistently done would accomplish a lot.

To clarify though, I don't really believe this is an optimal strategy, I just believe that if little mac -can- be viable, it would be via a paradigm shift in playstyle like this.

Rising Uppercut is often a guaranteed option out of d-throw at ~80-110%. This is really important for Mac!

It also breaks out of a lot of cheese, since frame-1 invincibility is the biggest cheese of all.

To top it off, it's LM's only solid answer to ledge jump--and all other ledge options he can destroy.

 

[Conda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdGaZMX328

Is their a prize or something? I like prizes.

I don't look to customs for balance or a more exciting meta. Quite frankly I put customs and equipment in the same boat. Diversions which can be but are not obligated to be fun. I don't mind playing with them, but I don't think Vanilla is worse at all. Honestly so long as we don't bar Mii's from moves which is dumb given they're "create-a-fighter"'s from the start, I'll continue to participate in either. Granted I am more partial to Vanilla at the moment, while I supported the moveset project, it is far from flawless and I think I rather as a standard do Vanilla given the apparent trend for vanilla play worldwide after having attempted the customs scene for the past 3 months. Its just not as smooth a transition as I had hoped, even when I bring my 3ds.

Addendum-

I agree with a lot of your intelligent points. Customs are fun and improve some characters, but those characters could be fixed by balance tweaks on their normals. It's not that customs are more balanced or less balanced, it's that they are an option and not everyone sees as much benefit in them in ways that aren't balance-related. More fun? A customs villager is not more fun to go up against than a customs-off villager.

But yeah, some characters are definitely made (subjectively) more fun, which is valuable. But Bowser with speed equipment is also more fun. If equipment was non-random and everyone had the same equips, would we also want equipment on?

Where is the line? The line we have currently placed is fully arbitrary - we only feel how we do about customs-on due to customs not being random and 3ds->wii transferring being possible. Without those two things - if customs were random in power and we couldn't transfer custom profiles from system to system - we would ignore customs just as we currently ignore equipment. This may shed a light on how necessary or unnecessary customs may actually be once we step back for a moment.

Ideally the characters would be balanced better so customs wouldn't be needed to make some characters more viable, which is where I feel a lot of the attachment to customs-on comes from.

I <3 customs, but their implementation leads me to realise that some scenes are definitely justified in sticking with customs-off. On or off both have their pros and cons, and one is more accessible for players and allows for faster metagame development. As a commentator and community growth advocate, I think customs-off has valuable pros that aren't balance-related. Customs-on has valuable pros as well.

 

[Flamecircle]

@ Conda
You brought up a really good point about the disconnect of customs and for glory. However, there's hope, as long as Nintendo can get us the online tourney functionalities soon.

Also, on the customs more fun point- Customs give us more personality to our individual choices as well as give good options.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@ littleMac: I believe his only path to viability would be Grounding Blow + Rising Smash, and maybe Stun Lunge/Dash Counter to enable absurdly low% kills with rising smash. He simply needs to level the playing field with him getting juggled and edgeguarded so easily.

Yea, I can die at 40% because you threw me off the stage. But now, I can kill you consistently at the same percents because you air dodged like a buster.

It also gives him way stronger platform pressure. Like, if grounding blow or rising smash catch you, you're dead.

As far as I can tell, Grounding Blow doesn't combo into Rising Smash. D-Tilt -> jump -> Rising Smash appears to be a true combo at some percents, though, so that should be tested.

Also as far as I can tell, Stun Lunge doesn't stun people long enough to get anything significant off of them. Are they stunned longer based on their percents?

 

[DunnoBro]

As far as I can tell, Grounding Blow doesn't combo into Rising Smash. D-Tilt -> jump -> Rising Smash appears to be a true combo at some percents, though, so that should be tested.

Also as far as I can tell, Stun Lunge doesn't stun people long enough to get anything significant off of them. Are they stunned longer based on their percents?

Yea, stun is % based. I doubt it's still reliable, though.

Also no, grounding doesn't true combo into smash (maybe on bigger characters), but you can catch the ascent fairly easily due to the linger.

 

[Jams.]

Honestly, I feel like a lot of this back-and-forth between pro-customs and pro-vanilla is helping to highlight one of Shaya's points: the rigidity and steadfastness of the pro-customs side will likely hurt their cause in the practical sense. The legality of customs isn't going to be determined by a bunch of "objective" arguments about why customs are better, it's probably going to be decided by politics and which side can better sway TOs, entrants, and viewers. I think it's fairly evident that some pro-customs theorists don't care about politics at all, and are pretty bad at it; this also seems fairly localized to Smashboards, customs supporters elsewhere seem more persuasive, likely because they're less "objective" in their thinking.

I think that customs supporters have to realize that this isn't mathematics, this is politics. A persuasive argument is often better than a correct argument (not that these are mutually exclusive). Reading @Budget Player Cadet_ 's posts don't persuade me to support customs, even if his points are solid.

Kind of late to the party, but my 2 cents.