Character Competitive Impressions

[DunnoBro]

Still can't get over G&W having a guaranteed kill over a 92% Sheik. That's basically around 9 dash attacks and she's done. This might actually be part of the patch because I don't remember D-Throw to U-Air ever killing reliably.

You might want to watch some of GIMR's most recent matches (on twitch, not on yt yet)... every kill was dthrow > upair on some players.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

buahhhhhh

https://gfycat.com/LinedUnequaledKilldeer

 

[Superbat]

@ Ffamran I got you. MVD is rotating between Lil mac, duck hunt, and diddy. His play impressed me the most because he took a game of Zero. I expected fraudulent Diddys to get destroyed my Zero if they ditto them so that was a nice (and wtf) surprise. SS's Ness is looking to be a top 3 ness with Fow and Nakat. Nairo, M2k, Zero, tearing it up like usual. I think that Nairo beat M2k but i'm 100% sure since I was doing other stuff when the game happened. Enjoying the stream alot. MVD still has an incredibly solid Duck Hunt as well. Littly synopsis of mine

 

[Quickhero]

I would like to mention that the ledge grab limit only applies if the time runs out.

I would also like to mention that a 25 LGL limit is hardly needed in the first place.

Not calling you out, I am not even sure whether you support it or not. The point is, this LGL thing only serves to harm the chances of customs being allowed and isn't necessary for a healthy custom meta at all. People need to learn how to abuse their kit for things like Villager which is entirely possible and even confirmed by Dapuffster's Mii Brawler. Instead of finding arbitrary rules to excuse the Villager's EBT camp in the short-run and allow this to completely ruin the reputation of customs and people's hopes for it, let's serve to make sure that people discover how to beat this with THEIR characters and go from there. Experiences and discoveries are how a metagame evolves, there is no reason as to how this is any different.

 

[Cool]

I don't understand why Zero gets a bad rep. The guy puts in a solid effort in to the game, he has very valuable videos trying to teach people how to play (which is more than I can say for most top players), his attitude is always optimistic, and he just loves playing some Smash. The guy pulls out Falcon in Grand Finals. Hopefully peep's cut him some slack over time.

People hate him because he plays the best characters.

 

[Superbat]

@ Ffamran I got you
OMFG smashboards just ate my ***** post. See the shortened synopsis of mine.
I expected fradulent Diddys to get annilhated by Zero so I definitely was not expecting MVD to sneak a win off Zero. Nairo,M2k, Zero tearing it up as usual. I think that M2K beat Nairo but not sure since i was doing other stuff when the game was playing. SS's Ness is top 3 with Fow and Nakat. Have more to say but smashboards literally ate my like half a page post. Will add stuff slowly. Ness vs MVD was a tight close last hit match. very fun to watch. standard sheik vs diddy match going on with M2k and K9's sheik.

and smashboards vommited my post back lol

 

[Ffamran]

buahhhhhh

https://gfycat.com/LinedUnequaledKilldeer

The gfycat's link alone sells that.

So, yeah, that hitbox, yo. Oh, since you're here, does Wario's Side Smash hit under the stage? I had it happen before, but I don't really remember who I used. If it was Captain Falcon, I could imagine that the Capt.'s arm was outstretched and Wario caught it with his Side Smash by hitting the Capt.'s arm in the stage. If it was Falco, then it would have been something different.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Someone refresh my memory.

In the Brawl era, how long did it take after planking became a thing for someone to propose an LGL? And in the meantime, how prevalent and/or powerful was planking, i.e. was it consistently winning matches and tournaments?

 

[DunnoBro]

I would also like to mention that a 25 LGL limit is hardly needed in the first place.

Not calling you out, I am not even sure whether you support it or not. The point is, this LGL thing only serves to harm the chances of customs being allowed and isn't necessary for a healthy custom meta at all. People need to learn how to abuse their kit for things like Villager which is entirely possible and even confirmed by Dapuffster's Mii Brawler. Instead of finding arbitrary rules to excuse the Villager's EBT camp in the short-run and allow this to completely ruin the reputation of customs and people's hopes for it, let's serve to make sure that people discover how to beat this with THEIR characters and go from there. Experiences and discoveries are how a metagame evolves, there is no reason as to how this is any different.

That's a fair way to look at things.

Yes, it should be proven to be needed first. I will say I hope the community will be able to make a quick and functional decision if that time comes, but until it does, it should be untouched.

I personally don't care, custom villager is so free for duck hunt. Last one I played in tournament made the mistake of trying to pocket the zigzag, and died for it. Then got stage spiked for trying to ledgestall me by the can.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I think it's funny that around the same time a ledge grab limit is announced in a rule-set Mike Kirby trips up a ledge camping Villager with meteor stone. Doesn't even look that hard. Kills him at like 25% and stone goes through balloons.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So, yeah, that hitbox, yo. Oh, since you're here, does Wario's Side Smash hit under the stage? I had it happen before, but I don't really remember who I used. If it was Captain Falcon, I could imagine that the Capt.'s arm was outstretched and Wario caught it with his Side Smash by hitting the Capt.'s arm in the stage. If it was Falco, then it would have been something different.

I think you can angle it downward. Not sure how far down it hits, though I know you can use it to hit people who grab the ledge without ledge invincibility.

 

[Blobface]

snip

I don't support it. This strategy falls apart at the touch of a feather as long as you don't let it get to your head.

I was primarily referring to the people saying this would impact other characters besides this one Villager build.

buahhhhhh

https://gfycat.com/LinedUnequaledKilldeer

That hitbox... It's like Dark Fists, except it's a Dark Fart.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think you can angle it downward. Not sure how far down it hits, though I know you can use it to hit people who grab the ledge without ledge invincibility.

Would you say the main benefit of RSW is the consistency? It seems like something that can be more freely thrown out and threatening quicker/more often as a result.

 

[Superbat]

Tune in to mew2king's twitch. The main show Nairo Vs Zero is up,

 

[Teshie U]

Brawl only had an LGL because of MK being so dominant and people not wanting to admit he was the only character that needed an LGL.

Universal LGL for one character is dumb, but its even more dumb that a universal LGL for a single variation of a character.

Having an LGL is basically just saying "this is unfair, but instead of removing the issue, we will limit it so we dont have to admit its broken".

I don't feel that Villager's ledge camp is unfair. I think the smash community just doesn't appreciate zoning or any strategy that doesnt involve close combat. Just look at how people react to watching duck hunt.

The whole point of custom moves is pushing every character as far as they can go and having superlative optimization. If you start snipping away at things you deem "toxic" or "too campy" or "harmful to the early meta", you are just proving customs often go too far.

Just wait til we see custom Wario, Sonic, Palutena etc. just run like hell with their added mobility.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Would you say the main benefit of RSW is the consistency? It seems like something that can be more freely thrown out and threatening quicker/more often as a result.

Absolutely. The defensive aspect of it is much stronger due to the enormous hitbox making a huge space below Wario a no-fly zone, the range makes it much easier to land offensively (especially in edgeguarding), the higher damage output via the flower is always appreciated, and it's still a reasonable KO move in its own right when used offstage and/or with significant Rage. It may be surprising how much a reliable hit adds to Wario's kit.

Also, since you get it every ~70 seconds or so, it feels more fruitful to camp for it, since you see results that much faster.

 

[HeroMystic]

Someone refresh my memory.

In the Brawl era, how long did it take after planking became a thing for someone to propose an LGL? And in the meantime, how prevalent and/or powerful was planking, i.e. was it consistently winning matches and tournaments?

It didn't take long. After it completely botched Diddy, Falco and Snake's MUs against Metaknight, the idea started to come up and was implemented about a month after.

Metaknight didn't need it, honestly. He was heavily dominating tournaments anyway (the serious talk about banning him was already underway), that just tipped it further in his hands and we were too timid to ban him.

 

[Superbat]

NOOO. Nairo just had the saddest Sd in smash bros history. His dark pit was going toe and toe with Zero's diddy but the skill gap is still too much. Attempted to use Zero suit Samus on the final match. He was doing pretty great as well but Nairo had the most tragic SD ever. Also another hard read by me with M2K palutena. I watch his streams so I know that it is not a joke character and he's actually very dedicated with her. Even if nairo beats Zero's diddy, Zero still has that extra stronk sheik on the table. M2k's palutena will probably become one of hims major mains this time.

 

[Shaya]

I don't see why adding a LGL would be admitting defeat. It deals with the issue of one custom combination. It speaks nothing on customs as a whole.

If adding a LGL is admitting defeat, then the concept of banning stages or infinites in any other smash game is admitting defeat too.

Yes, we've admitted defeat time and time again that Brawl has significant issues that required our intervention. Further intervention may have saved it, or just reveal even more of it's inherent issues. Oh MK!? Ban stages. Oh MK? Add an LGL. Oh MK and won't someone please think of the planking ROBs, G&Ws and Pits because it isn't "unbeatable"? Ban MK.. Oh god Ice Climbers oh god oh god oh god!? Unban MK. Can we ban ICs instead? HELL NO! *game dies*

Customs are "adding problems to the game" vs "developers removing many problems of the vanilla game" argument.
To me having an LGL over just admitting some of villager's specials are anti-competitive irks me.

I'm probably still pro-selective customs than anti-customs. But pride and outdated balance conceptualization of the only group "pro-customs" are a sinking ship and there aren't enough thumbs to plug the holes.

Oh logistics? Subsets. Oh outdated/doesn't match the meta? Can't do anything about it when we have majors locked into their rulesets. Oh issues with certain customs? IT AINT AS BAD AS DIDDY! Game gets rebalanced and diddy/etc is less of an issue. Oh issues with customs didn't get touched, more issues being found by the day? Please ignore them (or we'll throw contextually poor use of the word OBJECTIVE and appeal to 'unfairness' of the weight of the argument)
It is like Brawl all over again, we as a community are only finding more problems when we create solutions to older ones, and the root is customs alone as the wider community currently perceive it.
I really hope customs are heavily considered in future patches. Developer intervention seems to be only way we ever come remotely close to consensus.

 

[thehard]

Yes, we've admitted defeat time and time again that Brawl has significant issues that required our intervention. Further intervention may have saved it, or just reveal even more of it's inherent issues. Oh MK!? Ban stages. Oh MK? Add an LGL. Oh MK and won't someone please think of the planking ROBs, G&Ws and Pits because it isn't "unbeatable"? Ban MK.. Oh god Ice Climbers oh god oh god oh god!? Unban MK.

Customs are "adding problems to the game" vs "developers removing many problems of the vanilla game" argument.
To me having an LGL over just admitting some of villager's specials are anti-competitive irks me.

I'm probably still pro-selective customs than anti-customs. But pride and outdated balance conceptualization of the only group "pro-customs" are a sinking ship and there aren't enough thumbs to plug the holes.

Oh logistics? Subsets. Oh outdated/doesn't match the meta? Can't do anything about it when we have majors locked into their rulesets. Oh issues with certain customs? IT AINT AS BAD AS DIDDY! Game gets rebalanced and diddy/etc is less of an issue. Oh issues with customs didn't get touched, more issues being found by the day? Please ignore them (or we'll throw contextually poor use of the word OBJECTIVE and appeal to 'unfairness' of the weight of the argument)
It is like Brawl all over again, we as a community are only finding more problems when we create solutions to older ones.
I really hope customs are heavily considered in future patches. Developer intervention seems to be only way we ever come remotely close to consensus.

You have a lot of good to say, but please stop trying to scare people like this. 4 or 5 customs are making waves at a low level, nothing more.

 

[Ffamran]

I think you can angle it downward. Not sure how far down it hits, though I know you can use it to hit people who grab the ledge without ledge invincibility.

Yeah, the Wario angled it down and it just hit me. Probably not that useful, but it's something, I guess.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, the Wario angled it down and it just hit me. Probably not that useful, but it's something, I guess.

It's a lot of commitment considering how slow it is (Frame 18, active for two frames), but something to consider. Maybe it'd beat more than I imagine; testing must be done.

 

[Ulevo]

The custom meta should be played on the merit that it adds a new enjoyable experience people want to explore and enjoy, not as a means to "balance" the vanilla meta. That argument was flawed from the start for many reasons, and I do not believe we should take a similar approach with policy to "balance" another meta by implementing rules to circumvent problems. Rules are put in place as a means to handle real issues you otherwise can't deal with without unreasonable compromise. I mean, what's next? Are we going to start talking about how much time the timer should have as a means to balance characters that resort to time outs?

If the game is imbalanced, let it be so. Hope for a balance patch that addresses customs. We have vanilla, which is shaping up to be a decently balanced game. I like custom moves just as much as other custom advocates, but if tactics like Kong Cyclone or Villager's tactics ruin the competitive integrity we shouldn't be dragged down in to the mud with it.

 

[HeroMystic]

You have a lot of good to say, but please stop trying to scare people like this. 4 or 5 customs are making waves at a low level, nothing more.

The problem isn't the customs themselves but rather the attitudes that act as if this is completely fine ("adaptadaptadaptadaptadapt") and people who prefer default are horrible anti-competitive people.

 

[Superbat]

Super close matches with Zss. Seeing lots of Nair to grab resets with M2k's brawler. No problem with racking up damage or killing. Brawler has minimal lag with moves. Incredibly strong character (probably late to the party with this one too. lol)
Grand finals on M2k's stream people. Zero vs Nairo. I'm thinking Nairo might actually have a chance right now. I love both players but i'm still gonna root for zero

 

[DunnoBro]

Oh issues with certain customs? IT AINT AS BAD AS DIDDY! Game gets rebalanced and diddy/etc is less of an issue.

This is my main issue with this post. Customs were not ever supposed to be pushed as some sort of balancing mechanic, everything needs to be contextualized and not forced into an arbitrary "broken meter"

I also believe the community coming together to decide what's an issue and what isn't will lead nintendo to making changes, like they did with diddy. Sakurai be damned, nintendo has shown a clear interest in the health of the game.

The patch should be motive to play customs, not discouraging them.

 

[Ulevo]

This is my main issue with this post. Customs were not ever supposed to be pushed as some sort of balancing mechanic, everything needs to be contextualized and not forced into an arbitrary "broken meter"

The patch should be motive to play customs, not discouraging them.

I also believe the community coming together to decide what's an issue and what isn't will lead nintendo to making changes, like they did with diddy. Sakurai be damned, nintendo has shown a clear interest in the health of the game.

The latter half of this post is why I mentioned that nothing should be seriously considered regarding policy for custom moves until the Lucas patch hits. By that time we will have had tournament footage galore plus EVO to display the benefits and potential problems of custom moves. If by the Lucas patch things aren't addressed then we can begin to assume that Nintendo will not patch them accordingly and we can move forward.

Also, it is worth mentioning that customs were proposed as a balancing mechanic. Not by everyone, but the idea had its supporters.

 

[Shaya]

You have a lot of good to say, but please stop trying to scare people like this. 4 or 5 customs are making waves at a low level, nothing more.

Anti-competitive strategies don't need to be unbeatable. They're definitely making waves at higher than just low level. A lot of players have integrity and positive intents in mind, they aren't going to invest time into something that may not let them win but may damage the game in the eyes of a viewer or player.

Ulevo is right, customs is a different game. The high level/competitive players want a balanced game. The analogy I've made before is 5 better characters ("more balance") with 1/5th getting Brawl Dedede down throw, an anti-competitive addition, even if it didn't heavily effect the most viable characters in the game. People aren't going to want it if their perception of the alternative is relatively balanced. You can enjoy custom [tournaments] but they don't have merits for replacing or being a plain "addition" to the default as long as there are perceived issues with it.

This is my main issue with this post. Customs were not ever supposed to be pushed as some sort of balancing mechanic, everything needs to be contextualized and not forced into an arbitrary "broken meter"

As I said, don't complain about the weight of the argument. You can't just chuck off the baggage of what players truly want when you're attempting to justify it's existence over the default.

 

[Superbat]

OMG these matches with Zero and Nairo are giving no room to breath. Like god damn these are so intense. I'm at here like

 

[Teshie U]

Yes, we've admitted defeat time and time again that Brawl has significant issues that required our intervention. Further intervention may have saved it, or just reveal even more of it's inherent issues. Oh MK!? Ban stages. Oh MK? Add an LGL. Oh MK and won't someone please think of the planking ROBs, G&Ws and Pits because it isn't "unbeatable"? Ban MK.. Oh god Ice Climbers oh god oh god oh god!? Unban MK. Can we ban ICs instead? HELL NO! *game dies*

Customs are "adding problems to the game" vs "developers removing many problems of the vanilla game" argument.
To me having an LGL over just admitting some of villager's specials are anti-competitive irks me.

I'm probably still pro-selective customs than anti-customs. But pride and outdated balance conceptualization of the only group "pro-customs" are a sinking ship and there aren't enough thumbs to plug the holes.

Oh logistics? Subsets. Oh outdated/doesn't match the meta? Can't do anything about it when we have majors locked into their rulesets. Oh issues with certain customs? IT AINT AS BAD AS DIDDY! Game gets rebalanced and diddy/etc is less of an issue. Oh issues with customs didn't get touched, more issues being found by the day? Please ignore them (or we'll throw contextually poor use of the word OBJECTIVE and appeal to 'unfairness' of the weight of the argument)
It is like Brawl all over again, we as a community are only finding more problems when we create solutions to older ones, and the root is customs alone as the wider community currently perceive it.
I really hope customs are heavily considered in future patches. Developer intervention seems to be only way we ever come remotely close to consensus.

So much of this rings true for me.

I find the major issue I have with customs is people use all the wrong reasons to justify their legality or having them banned. People pretending an underdeveloped meta was definitely more fair and balanced.

 

[Superbat]

The end of the set had me like

Nairo played considerably worse than WF's
They both missed some punishes but it was the expected outcome
Great tournament.

 

[Shaya]

If the scene can support both customs and customs-off I'm all for it. I feel customs deserve this much
It shouldn't die nor should we be calling for it's demise before evo or until after the next balance patch (and in theory never should as long as balance patches are possible).

But there is a reality I'm sure most people are aware of.
Issues beget issues which we create solutions to which beget issues.
In my eyes everything was perfect for customs when it came to post-apex. We had a solution to logistics, we had a major tournament willing to use them to get the wider community behind them. But now we're in a situation where we don't actually have solutions to the problems bar dealing with it/ignoring them. And it isn't JUST balance. But the root of them all is objectively (I actually hate myself right now) customs.

 

[thehard]

What problems? When does something become a problem? I've seen the same faces in Top 8s stream after stream at customs tournaments. The strongest moves are mostly knowledge barriers at low levels and as players play with them more they do, yes, adapt to them.

Could you write out all the issues you have with customs atm?

And what are we defining as anti-competitive?

 

[HeroMystic]

This is my main issue with this post. Customs were not ever supposed to be pushed as some sort of balancing mechanic, everything needs to be contextualized and not forced into an arbitrary "broken meter"

I want to say this completely destroys any integrity of the customs metagame because this essentially admits there was never any objective reasoning for them in the first place. I also want to say I know this isn't true, as competitive tourney goers have proposed the idea that customs is more balanced than default, and I'll even post links to prove it.

That said, if it's all based on subjectivity, as in "I want customs because feels" then I "feel" the customs metagame is complete trash and I want default to completely return to the scene in all of it's dominance.

If we're not going to add objective reasoning to any of this happening then there really isn't a point for doing this in the first place. Default is already looking much more balanced (and therefore, more fun) and I see no problem with it now that the top tiers have been pulled more in line with the rest of the cast.

I am all for customs remaining in the metagame, but lets not assume we should just deal with it when we already have a good working default metagame within our hands as well.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The problem isn't the customs themselves but rather the attitudes that act as if this is completely fine ("adaptadaptadaptadaptadapt") and people who prefer default are horrible anti-competitive people.

At what point do people just want stuff handed to them though? Ledge stalling with Villager is an objectively bad tactic. It requires consecutive (non-invincible) ledge grabs. Down smash to trade with balloons is an easy mode counter that works with almost every character. The handful who can't do that have other stuff. For that matter, there's a lot of specific things outside of this that completely shut down the tactic hard. Anyone losing to this does just need to adapt. They've been told how to beat it, it's really easy to beat, and if they just choose to lose to it, why should we ban stuff for their sake? I feel like this sort of thing comes up a lot; there has not been a single custom move that is just dominating anything. For every strong custom, we see a lot of players actually beating it but people just get hung up on the people losing to it.

Let me put the whole balance argument for customs in another way. Sandstorm just finished, customs legal. Here's our top 8:

1. Zero (default Diddy, counterpicked default Sheik once to beat Little Mac)
2. Nairo (default ZSS/default Dark Pit)
3. Mew2King (1122 default size Mii Brawler, 2312 Palutena, default Diddy)
4. SS (mostly default Ness, used some other character much earlier in the tournament but I honestly don't remember which one)
5. MVD (default Duck Hunt/default Diddy)
5. K9sbruce (default Sheik)
7. Apachi (default Little Mac, I think he was the player who used some 3111 Pit?)
7. Airvault (1123 Marth)

Without customs we can be pretty sure Airvault wouldn't have made top 8; Crescent Slash was what kept him in games and honestly is the primary reason Marth has any viability at all. Banning customs would just be removing Marth from the game and hence removing this player who was a dedicated main. Airvault's games were really entertaining so I don't see the positive to this. Mew2King got a lot of mileage out of customs with both Mii Brawler and Palutena, both effectively banned characters without customs (just transparently not viable without customs). He was not really abusive at all with either; it was just two more tournament viable characters that get to exist. I think Mew2King would have probably placed highly either way, just in a far more dull fashion probably using exclusively Diddy.

Honestly as a custom advocate it kinda frustrates me that customs aren't seeing as much play as I think they should be at big events like this (Zig-Zag Shot IMO could have helped MVD a lot). That's just a personal disappointment that they aren't making as big of an impact as I feel like they can. Either way, what problems are they creating at a large scale? ADHD got 5th at one kinda big tournament before anyone had time to lab up how to beat ledge stalling Villager (ledge stall Villager being defeated by three different characters with wildly different strategies the day it was first show, incidentally)? Kong Cyclone which seems to do worse and worse as time goes on and people learn how to beat it (though related, DK is just obviously not viable at all without customs so there's another character customs kinda add to the game)? I actually don't have a problem walking people through how to properly respond to any custom and the downsides/weaknesses to any of them, but it doesn't seem like a single one is even making itself a problem so it feels like guessing what people are upset about beyond the way early in brackets it seems pretty common for people to lose to stuff they obviously haven't seen before or haven't practiced against? Don't we want players who do not thoroughly prepare to lose? Doesn't the current evidence no suggest that customs are basically just adding characters to the game who are not doing gamebreaking things, hence clearly improving the balance (yes, I'm willing to commit to customs being more balanced than default, a lot more balanced in my opinion)?

This isn't an anomaly; customs have been legal at a lot of substantial events. How many events has custom Villager won as in taken first place? I have never seen custom Villager win a tournament; maybe he has won some smaller, less publicized ones (I'd love to see the results/videos from such events, if anyone can actually point to one). No amount of determined Kong Cyclone use seems to be propelling DK into tournament winning either; he's made quite a few top 8s but never actually won with no consistency at all as per which characters ultimately take him out (suggesting to me that every character can beat him). I don't think the pro-custom side is being unreasonable to say, that with customs having been legal at so many events, that we want to see actual results out of allegedly broken things.

I don't think the anti-custom people are awful people, but I do think their cause is misguided. Banning customs is effectively banning a lot of characters who are only viable because of customs and is greatly reducing the gameplay variety of the game. Players who have put in the time to master customs and master gameplay elements only present with customs legal are basically having "their part" of the game banned. For however annoying anti-custom people find playing against customs while still being allowed to use everything they've practiced, it's at least twice as soul-crushing to pro-custom people to have to play in events with their mains banned and even those of us who main characters who are merely gimped by non-custom instead of completely ruined it's just dissatisfying since every time I lose in customs off I wonder if I'm really the worse player or if I'm just being held back by not having my real character. I feel like just how awful that is for custom players far outweighs any annoyance the anti-custom crowd has to suffer for playing against something they don't like. I feel doubly strong about this given the current state of affairs that has clearly continued post-patch of default characters winning custom tournaments.

---

I'm sure many are still not persuaded. Let me double down. I'm 100% convinced customs are not a balance problem and that no specific custom warrants a ban. I want to hear the other side get specific here. Name specific customs that are broken. Name specific match-ups you believe those customs render unwinnable that are otherwise winnable with customs banned. If you think a specific custom is merely a matter of gameplay degeneracy as opposed to match-up breaking, explain in fine detail how that's the case and specifically why no one can do anything about it. I don't mean to just make a burden for "your side"; I just want a series of falsifiable claims that hinge on objective game mechanics since claims like "some customs cause problems" are just impossible to argue against by their very nature. I can promise my efforts and I'm sure many other pro-custom players will also lend their help in showing specifically how any specific case isn't a problem. If we can answer every specific case, there should be no problem. So, let's have at it?

 

[PUK]

Is Wario currently placing well? I honestly don't see results or footage of him to be honest. And when I do it's basically you.

The third best french player solo mains wario sooo... Yes

 

[Ulevo]

I'm not sure I buy the whole "banning customs is effectively banning a lot of characters" argument given the extent to which we can viably use characters in tournament already in vanilla. That being said, what banning customs does do is remove opportunity. Even though vanilla might or might not have more balance or wider array of competitive options, having customs legal provides opportunity for characters like Marth to have some time in the spotlight when they otherwise might not. It's a shift in tiers. It also gives us a chance to explore options we otherwise could not.

It's not like vanilla is going anywhere based on the precedent the custom meta game sets for itself. Reality is that if people want to play customs, they just will. It's gotten the attention it needs and the natural progression forward is already on its way. This is essentially why I disagree with adding rules for the sake of "fixing" custom issues, or the idea of banning moves or movesets on an idealistic notion of a "balanced" customs meta game. If people hate the meta custom moves produce, they'll stop playing it, and vanilla is a fine alternative to turn to everyone is playing already. Again, I don't buy the whole balance argument on face value, I just believe that if the customs meta wants to have a go with its wonky and arguably over tuned tactics then it should be privy to on the understanding that it comes at the price of not necessarily being perfectly balanced all the time.

 

[Shaya]

What problems? When does something become a problem? I've seen the same faces in Top 8s stream after stream at customs tournaments. The strongest moves are mostly knowledge barriers at low levels and as players play with them more they do, yes, adapt to them.

Could you write out all the issues you have with customs atm?

And what are we defining as anti-competitive?

1. Logistics. Solution? Custom sets (good!)
2. Custom sets don't represent the latest meta or the best players of character's choices. Solution? Too bad (the issue of 'presets'). Good scenes just have everything legal, but majority are just thinking of Evo, which is unfortunate.
3. It wanting to replace a viable and widespread way to play the game. Solution? Support both, or tell people to stop being scrubs.
4. Competitive players want to play a game they perceive as better balanced. Solution? Hope Sakurai patches or continue to develop the meta.
[3+4] Are TOs and players willing to support both? <----- This is actually the MAJOR ISSUE

Customs never seemed to produce results that clashed with vanilla results with only some exceptions (Mii Brawler and -maybe- DK basically).
The strongest moves aren't a problem due to knowledge barriers, more so willingness to deal with them.

You aren't going to get an objective definition of anti-competitive. Perhaps the weight of experience from people competing in various games or the Smash series in general? The development of esports/competitive gaming and how successful games manage and deal with their issues? I would say Brawl Dedede's down throw doesn't make the game better, it would be much better without it. I don't think Counter Tree makes the game any better, whatever term you would like to use for this I'd be interested, but where's the group of people who prefer to actually meet in the middle of the two sides? Definitely not you or the average pro-custom advocate.

This is all about perspectives and the combined mass of individual support. I'm never going to bother arguing the subjective being better over another, just identifying why or how people come to those conclusions. Why should players want to adapt to something they don't enjoy when the option is there to not deal with it at all? This is never ever ever addressed by pro-customs (beyond "ADAPT" "GET BETTER"), the moment those people support removing of certain customs by virtue of weighted impact the chance actually exists of people having a shift in perspective change beyond developer intervention. Although as already pointed out "admitting defeat" and anti-custom extremists will probably make it even messier. That's more issues. The never ending list. People do want to play the game and convolution or complications can only be tolerated so much before people tip.

Individuals are making a decision on whether they're pro or anti-customs, and people's grievances with one have been reduced while another amasses them (even if it is "unfair"). You aren't going to get anywhere telling people to ignore them (or semantics/they don't exist). That's the crux of anything I've read from you at least.

P.S. Ulevo is covering my views in a much nicer way, thank you.

 

[warionumbah2]

And it's very fair to mention that Mewtwo isn't going to be getting kill throws against the smaller characters unlike Ness. But that comparison doesn't matter because Mewtwo probably isn't going to have an awful MU with any of those three characters (maybe G&W but ehhh) and thus so what if his grab is marginally less reliable in three cases. His kill power is still overall better than Jiggs in the places where it counts is what I mean. =3

Yes it does matter because that means these guys will gain more rage by nulifiying Mewtwos main kill options, his down smash comes out slow and can be shielded on reaction, up smash doesnt suck grounded opponents in unless they're right beneath him. Mewtwo will have to rely heavily on edgeguards or shadow ball.

Mewtwo cant afford to let his opponents get into rage, I think kirby beats him especially when he copies mewtwos shadow ball giving kirby another kill option and a tool to force mewtwo to play differently.Mewtwo isnt all that fast and kirby's frame data allows him to dominate mewtwo up close. Kirby actually deals more damage out of throws thanks to his better pummels and buffed down throw.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Customs never seemed to produce results that clashed with vanilla results with only some exceptions (Mii Brawler and -maybe- DK basically).
The strongest moves aren't a problem due to knowledge barriers, more so willingness to deal with them.

At what point would change be more common? Or another question, when would we be willing to say this conclusion for sure after what amount of time?

I would expect the defaults to still be a thing for now, but how changes happen later is something I'm not sure when it would happen.