Character Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Yes. An NJ player and TO named RJ, who runs the Collision series already did the data for Mewtwo. His aerial recovery is horrendous.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't know if this is already known but I found a video on Reddit showing Mewtwo's landing lag for his aerials.

Nair: 19F
Fair: 18F
Bair: 21F
Uair: 16F
Dair: 22F

Assuming it's accurate, does this mean Mewtwo has some of the laggiest aerial landing data in the game?

Isn't that more average landing lag? Er... Then again, I play as Falco and have to deal with Dair and Fair's landing lag if I mess up... I don't know how accurate this is, though. Also, considering Mewtwo's range and disjoints, Mewtwo having slow landing lag makes sense from a balancing perspective, but then you look at the Pits' landing lag or Sheik's almost non-existent landing lag.

Format goes Character Name, Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, and I think airdodge land lag.

http://smashbros2ch.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-449.html

Chart in English:

|Nair|Fair|Bair|Uair|Dair|Air Dodge
Mario | 10 | 26 | 12 | 12 | 19 | 22
Luigi | 14 | 22 | 16 | 12 | 20 | 22
Peach | 11 | 22 | 18 | 12 | 13 | 22
Bowser | 24 | 24 | 40 | 28 | 40 | 22
Yoshi | 11 | 17 | 19 | 14 | 24 | 22
Rosalina | 11 | 20 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 22
Bowser Jr. | 18 | 27 | 24 | 15 | 25 | 22
Wario | 12 | 16 | 27 | 12 | 19 | 22
Mr. Game & Watch | 12 | 15 | 24 | 12 | 28 | 22
Donkey Kong | 17 | 29 | 18 | 25 | 24 | 22
Diddy Kong | 13 | 26 | 12 | 21 | 28 | 22
Link | 10 | 12 | 10 | 23 | 32 | 22
Zelda | 22 | 23 | 25 | 22 | 21 | 22
Sheik | 10 | 10 | 12 | 21 | 30 | 22
Ganondorf | 18 | 23 | 20 | 20 | 28 | 22
Toon Link | 15 | 18 | 22 | 21 | 40 | 22
Samus | 16 | 30 | 18 | 12 | 20 | 22
Zero Suit Samus | 10 | 16 | 11 | 9 | 30 | 15
Pit | 24 | 20 | 20 | 24 | 24 | 22
Palutena | 20 | 12 | 16 | 24 | 18 | 22
Marth | 15 | 18 | 19 | 16 | 28 | 22
Ike | 16 | 19 | 19 | 18 | 26 | 22
Robin | 20 | 20 | 21 | 20 | 28 | 22
Kirby | 10 | 13 | 17 | 12 | 17 | 22
King Dedede | 15 | 30 | 21 | 22 | 30 | 22
Meta Knight | 20 | 20 | 18 | 18 | 22 | 22
Little Mac | 16 | 22 | 26 | 22 | 30 | 22
Fox | 11 | 27 | 15 | 22 | 25 | 22
Falco | 15 | 32 | 15 | 15 | 26 | 22
Pikachu | 25 | 15 | 30 | 24 | 40 | 22
Charizard | 22 | 32 | 36 | 22 | 35 | 22
Lucario | 9 | 18 | 15 | 22 | 9 | 22
Jigglypuff | 15 | 15 | 18 | 15 | 30 | 22
Greninja | 12 | 18 | 16 | 15 | 32 | 22
Duck Hunt | 22 | 15 | 24 | 18 | 34 | 22
R.O.B. | 12 | 15 | 22 | 22 | 21 | 22
Ness | 18 | 26 | 17 | 14 | 28 | 22
Captain Falcon | 12 | 30 | 12 | 9 | 21 | 22
Villager | 14 | 23 | 23 | 15 | 15 | 22
Olimar | 15 | 15 | 15 | 30 | 30 | 22
Wii Fit Trainer | 14 | 15 | 20 | 15 | 20 | 22
Dr. Mario | 12 | 28 | 16 | 14 | 24 | 22
Dark Pit | 24 | 20 | 20 | 24 | 24 | 22
Lucina | 15 | 18 | 19 | 16 | 28 | 22
Shulk | 12 | 21 | 21 | 17 | 25 | 22
Pac-Man | 12 | 16 | 22 | 16 | 20 | 22
Mega Man | - | 19 | 20 | 19 | 24 | 22
Sonic | 16 | 26 | 30 | 21 | 38 | 22

EDIT: Updating a few known changes to frame data.

Edit: Never mind, Mewtwo's landing lag would be slow, but can't Fair, Bair, and Uair auto-cancel?

 

[Iron Kraken]

Nana to up B is a thing that works around 60 or 70. If you're going to tell me that's not worth I'll respectfully disagree. I was expecting diddy to be a lot worse off than he is. When I played some Diddys it didn't seem like anything changed other than when he killed me.

"Other than when he killed you" is not a small caveat, given that the whole point of the game is to kill your opponent faster than they kill you. And you need to remember that when you see Diddy killing you 40% later, that pre-patch Diddy also would have gotten you to those %s faster than before, by virtue of the damage on so many of his attacks being reduced by a full 2%.

And whether you noticed it or not, the change to Diddy's down-throw is very real. Hoo-Hah just isn't the same before on any level. And F-Smash has also been changed.

The nana to Up+B thing is definitely dangerous, but opponents can see it coming, and Diddy has to accept having an atrocious recovery. If Diddy wants to recover below the stage, he has to hug the stage, since he can't move horizontally with it. In that position Diddy is a sitting duck.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Isn't that more average landing lag? Er... Then again, I play as Falco and have to deal with Dair and Fair's landing lag if I mess up... I don't know how accurate this is, though. Also, considering Mewtwo's range and disjoints, Mewtwo having slow landing lag makes sense from a balancing perspective, but then you look at the Pits' landing lag or Sheik's almost non-existent landing lag.


Edit: Never mind, Mewtwo's landing lag would be slow, but can't Fair, Bair, and Uair auto-cancel?

I think he can autocancel everything except nair out of a short hop (and nair can autocancel out of a full hop) but it's still...eugh.

 

[Luco]

Hmm, I want you guys to remember just how powerful items are in this game, and in previous smash games. Generally, characters in Brawl that had holdable items were very good with the exception of like Link, and mostly because he couldn't capitalise off his items in nearly the same way. But one of the "big brawl jokes" was how ZSS temporarily became a tier higher than she was already when she started with 3 armour pieces and then dropped when they were all gone. Peach's turnips lead in to so much stuff and she could glide toss them for this incredible pressure (much of what ZSS did too, gawd I loved Brawl Zero suit so much <3 ).

Bananas and nades were considered the things that made Brawl Diddy and Brawl Snake top tier. In Smash 4, it's very important to consider Diddy has an item he can control at will and use to create pressure, traps and kills. I don't think that was explored nearly enough pre-patch.

... That said, I also think it's important to consider Diddy can only draw one banana. His stage control is significantly less terrifying when you don't have to worry about both bananas and you can work with his banana much easier in this game because it doesn't last nearly as long and disappears after two uses (if it touches the ground), etc. Diddy no longer has an infinite off those things, you know. The banana set ups are very powerful and could definitely be explored more, but I think it's fair to say the reduction of guaranteed kill setups into far less reliable setups (and if you want to kill with them at any comparable percent then you trade off recovery, meaning some of Diddy's MUs get a lot harder.)

I think the diddy nerfs were pretty good. We'll see what their long-term effect on the meta is but like, I wouldn't freak out just yet. =)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So... Teams is totally broken. Like, completely. Will and Vinnie using Vanish+Bucket for free kills, the other team running MLG Ball... It's a little busted as all hell.

EDIT: team "works in vanilla" wins. Again.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I know Villager has a 1.9x multiplier on Pocket when he throws projectiles back out, but how does that interact with Aura Sphere in particular? Is it based off of the actual damage when Lucario threw it, or the base damage of the move which normally requires Lucario to be at 75% or so?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I know Villager has a 1.9x multiplier on Pocket when he throws projectiles back out, but how does that interact with Aura Sphere in particular? Is it based off of the actual damage when Lucario threw it, or the base damage of the move which normally requires Lucario to be at 75% or so?

It's specifically the slow custom one. I don't understand why it works how it works, but it's kinda nasty. Not as nasty as two vanishes filling the bucket, but nasty.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So ... is there anything that Mewtwo is actually legitimately better at than Jigglypuff?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's specifically the slow custom one. I don't understand why it works how it works, but it's kinda nasty. Not as nasty as two vanishes filling the bucket, but nasty.

IIRC Snaring Aura Sphere has a windbox. I wonder if Pocket is amplifying that in addition to the projectile itself?

That's complete speculation.

So ... is there anything that Mewtwo is actually legitimately better at than Jigglypuff?

Mewtwo has a projectile and a reflector at the very least.

 

[Nobie]

As a Mega Man player, Mewtwo's landing lag is a fresh of breath air, especially because Mewtwo's so floaty and can simply avoid triggering landing lag by doing a short hops and not fast falling.

Speaking of short hops, a while back people were talking about how important Short Hop Air Dodge is for Samus, because her normal defensive options aren't great. Given that Mewtwo also has not so great rolls, and has a slow walk + poor turnaround while dashing, does it also benefit from this strategy? I would think that Mewtwo would benefit from it a bit more because it doesn't have that weird hang time pause that Samus does, and can attack out of it with moves like fair and nair.

On another note, going on FG and testing out Mewtwo, I've noticed that a lot of people have been switching to the same characters to fight it. These would be Captain Falcon, Fox, Link, and the Marios. Where is this coming from? I mean, I know that all of these characters have their own tools to fight Mewtwo, but I can't help but feel that players are getting their information from the same place if so many people are deciding to switch to the same characters to fight Mewtwo.

 

[Joeyd123]

Coming from a casual gamer who is starting to play more competitively, which characters are currently the strongest? (As in winning/making it far in tournaments)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So ... is there anything that Mewtwo is actually legitimately better at than Jigglypuff?

Moving forward. Getting opponents to stop shielding.

 

[Ulevo]

Jigglypuff is secretly a bad ass. Mewtwo is a low tier posing as a bad ass, unfortunately.

 

[Firefoxx]

Coming from a casual gamer who is starting to play more competitively, which characters are currently the strongest? (As in winning/making it far in tournaments)

We don't really know yet in the new patch, but you can expect to see Diddy Kong, Sheik, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu Fox, and Rosalina go far and win pretty often. There are certainly other heavy hitters, but those are generally the ones with the best results or most potential.

 

[Cool]

So guys, I must ask... what 2-3 characters mained together do you guys feel would cover the most matchups and be objectively the best?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Moving forward. Getting opponents to stop shielding.

Jigglypuff is more mobile than Mewtwo and has an easy time dodging projectiles. Shielding opponents is a non-issue for Jiggs ... her bair/fair are more threatening than Mewtwo's sideB imho and it's not like Mewtwo can force you into your shield in close range that easily in the first place.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff can't do anything to a lot of opponent who choose to roll backward or shield (the combination of which is dangerous for her to do much about), and Mewtwo's greater range on top of his having faster B-Air/F-Air help in important ways in relation to that comparison. I dropped Jigglypuff because I feel it's simply too difficult for her to approach reliably.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So guys, I must ask... what 2-3 characters mained together do you guys feel would cover the most matchups and be objectively the best?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

We don't really know a whole lot about matchups yet.

 

[Ulevo]

Coming from a casual gamer who is starting to play more competitively, which characters are currently the strongest? (As in winning/making it far in tournaments)

Looking at the character list, the ones with solid tournament potential I would say are the following: Captain Falcon, Dark Pit, Diddy Kong, Fox, Luigi, Mario, Mega Man, Meta Knight, Ness, Olimar, Pikachu, Pit, R.O.B., Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic, Villager, Yoshi, Zero Suit Samus.

This is a very conservative list. There are characters on here that have potential to be solo viable in tournament or viable with a secondary, and there are players who specialize in tournaments with specific characters, like Tweek with Bowser Jr. and Will with Donkey Kong, that do well despite them being perceived as lower tier characters. Some characters, like Pac Man and Duck Hunt, have tournament results but do not appear as often. This list just mentions the common ones that place well, minus Meta Knight, which is my personal inclusion due to experience.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario, though?

 

[Ulevo]

Jigglypuff can't do anything to a lot of opponent who choose to roll backward or shield (the combination of which is dangerous for her to do much about), and Mewtwo's greater range on top of his having faster B-Air/F-Air help in important ways in relation to that comparison. I dropped Jigglypuff because I feel it's simply too difficult for her to approach reliably.

I find between her neutral air and aerial speed she's able to approach relatively well given how many moves that single hitbox can over prioritize. I'm not speaking from a Jigglypuff mains experience though, I only goof around with the character. I think she has reasonable potential even if she's not solo tourney viable, and I admit she likely has problems. I am adamant Mewtwo is completely terrible in comparison however.

Wario, though?

Is Wario currently placing well? I honestly don't see results or footage of him to be honest. And when I do it's basically you.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I find between her neutral air and aerial speed she's able to approach relatively well given how many moves that single hitbox can over prioritize. I'm not speaking from a Jigglypuff mains experience though, I only goof around with the character. I think she has reasonable potential even if she's not solo tourney viable, and I admit she likely has problems. I am adamant Mewtwo is completely terrible in comparison however.

Is Wario currently placing well? I honestly don't see results or footage of him to be honest. And when I do it's basically you.

Because of how long Jigglypuff's N-Air takes to finish, many good characters are capable of punishing or at least pressuring after you retreat, like Falcon and Sheik. It's a good move, but it only gets you so far when it doesn't really net you much on hit on stage.

I'm not going to pretend I'm some Mewtwo expert, but I don't think that comparing the two in terms of what they do is especially apt.

I know Magik in Texas does pretty well; I think Wafty does well in...California, is it?

 

[Luco]

Jigglypuff doesn't have a reliable kill throw. Actually, I'd like to add that with the exception of some true combo setups, no-one in the game has a more reliable kill throw than Mewtwo. Not even Ness, because whilst the distance from where you are on the stage to the opposite side blast zone can be changed, the only way to change your distance from a kill off the top is by actually picking a stage with a high ceiling, which is obviously going to be struck by mewtwo the first chance he can get.

I would say Ness' Bthrow is still better because he can capitalise off a Bthrow that doesn't kill so much better than Mewtwo can off a Uthrow (and our Bthrow is still more powerful generally so it's only at the far ledge that we're actually killing later than the guy normally). But in terms of actually getting the kill, we have to do the data for our kill throws using 3 separate distances from the blast zone. Mewtwo only has to do it for a few different stages, and that's huge.

But more importantly, this means his kill game is better than puff's already (lol Bair). You can sit in shield against Puff and if you get it by pound, then you avoid her for a while (if you have good aerials you can challenge her in the air if she decides to engage you) and you're good as gold again. Puff can eventually kill off a throw but it's stupidly late, unless jigs herself is below 50-60% the opponent is probably going to get some bogus rage-based kill on her anyway.

Puff also doesn't really force you to approach when you're not behind either. And Mewtwo is marginally heavier even whilst being quite large.

What makes you think Mewtwo doesn't accel in anything better than Jiggs?

 

[Cool]

We don't really know a whole lot about matchups yet.

Ah, that's what I thought.

To me, it seems like pairing characters like Sheik, Diddy, or ZSS with Rosalina or Villager could cover a lot of matchups. I don't know, not too sure on matchups myself though.

Apachad just beat Zero's DIDDY with MAC.

 

[Ulevo]

Because of how long Jigglypuff's N-Air takes to finish, many good characters are capable of punishing or at least pressuring after you retreat, like Falcon and Sheik. It's a good move, but it only gets you so far when it doesn't really net you much on hit on stage.

I'm not going to pretend I'm some Mewtwo expert, but I don't think that comparing the two in terms of what they do is especially apt.

I know Magik in Texas does pretty well; I think Wafty does well in...California, is it?

I'm not comparing the two so much as I am calling Mewtwo a terrible character and Jigglypuff a reasonable character.

I would classify Wario as a character like Duck Hunt or Pac Man that can/has done well but just isn't really seen that much, either because the character is quirky and is unpopular or lacks valuable reps for the character. Meta Knight falls in here as well, though Wario may or may not have more tournament exposure. I'm not sure.

Jigglypuff doesn't have a reliable kill throw. Actually, I'd like to add that with the exception of some true combo setups, no-one in the game has a more reliable kill throw than Mewtwo. Not even Ness, because whilst the distance from where you are on the stage to the opposite side blast zone can be changed, the only way to change your distance from a kill off the top is by actually picking a stage with a high ceiling, which is obviously going to be struck by mewtwo the first chance he can get.

I would say Ness' Bthrow is still better because he can capitalise off a Bthrow that doesn't kill so much better than Mewtwo can off a Uthrow (and our Bthrow is still more powerful generally so it's only at the far ledge that we're actually killing later than the guy normally). But in terms of actually getting the kill, we have to do the data for our kill throws using 3 separate distances from the blast zone. Mewtwo only has to do it for a few different stages, and that's huge.

But more importantly, this means his kill game is better than puff's already (lol Bair). You can sit in shield against Puff and if you get it by pound, then you avoid her for a while (if you have good aerials you can challenge her in the air if she decides to engage you) and you're good as gold again. Puff can eventually kill off a throw but it's stupidly late, unless jigs herself is below 50-60% the opponent is probably going to get some bogus rage-based kill on her anyway.

Puff also doesn't really force you to approach when you're not behind either. And Mewtwo is marginally heavier even whilst being quite large.

What makes you think Mewtwo doesn't accel in anything better than Jiggs?

Again, I'm not comparing the two. I'm just talking about where the two of them sit on the tier list relative to one another. I could address the specific points you've mentioned but honestly Nintendo did such a **** job with the character that until Taj comes and wows me by miraculously placing well because reasons I don't feel the need to. The character's bad, and not just from a match up perspective. That's my opinion.

 

[warionumbah2]

But unlike Mewtwo, Ness doesn't whiff his grab against smaller characters like a moron.

If you use Kirby,Jigglypuff,G&W you'll never die to an Up throw. His dash grab,standing grab,dash attack,F-Smash heck maybe his jab 1 whiffs them.

At least ZSS can up b characters that are crouching from the ground up.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Apachad just beat Zero's DIDDY with MAC.

Mac seems like a highly volatile character; having superior footsie tools but having a significant tendency to die off of throws means that two-stocking an opponent and getting two-stocked are both quite common even between players of similar skill levels.

He can only go up, though. He has a good bit going for him.

 

[Luco]

I'm not comparing the two so much as I am calling Mewtwo a terrible character and Jigglypuff a reasonable character.

I would classify Wario as a character like Duck Hunt or Pac Man that can/has done well but just isn't really seen that much, either because the character is quirky and is unpopular or lacks valuable reps for the character. Meta Knight falls in here as well, though Wario may or may not have more tournament exposure. I'm not sure.



Again, I'm not comparing the two. I'm just talking about where the two of them sit on the tier list relative to one another. I could address the specific points you've mentioned but honestly Nintendo did such a **** job with the character that until Taj comes and wows me by miraculously placing well because reasons I don't feel the need to. The character's bad, and not just from a match up perspective. That's my opinion.

I was more addressing Gheb here but sure. I'm not calling Mewtwo bad or Jiggly bad (personally I think puff just isn't up to par again in this game but that's just my opinion) but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case anyway. My point was addressing "what does mewtwo do better than puff?" (more or less what Gheb said ) basically. I should have made that clear, so I apologise.

And it's very fair to mention that Mewtwo isn't going to be getting kill throws against the smaller characters unlike Ness. But that comparison doesn't matter because Mewtwo probably isn't going to have an awful MU with any of those three characters (maybe G&W but ehhh) and thus so what if his grab is marginally less reliable in three cases. His kill power is still overall better than Jiggs in the places where it counts is what I mean. =3

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf's U-smash is completely safe on block (Not even Needles can punish it when blocked). On top of that, it does loads of shield damage. Could Ganondorf use this to apply shield pressure off a read?

 

[Cool]

Mac seems like a highly volatile character; having superior footsie tools but having a significant tendency to die off of throws means that two-stocking an opponent and getting two-stocked are both quite common even between players of similar skill levels.

He can only go up, though. He has a good bit going for him.

That's definitely a good description of him. It'll be interesting to see how this new easier PP affects his play.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ganondorf's U-smash is completely safe on block (Not even Needles can punish it when blocked). On top of that, it does loads of shield damage. Could Ganondorf use this to apply shield pressure off a read?

Wait why would you need a read to shield pressure? If you see a shield and you are close enough to u-smash just ****ing do it.

 

[Ulevo]

On another note, I am thinking about creating a thread for it later much in the same way I did for Lylat Cruise, but I'm refraining from doing so until I have more experience with the stage...what do people think about Mario Circuit?

After playing on Wuhu, Skyloft, and Pilotwings, I do not feel they are tournament viable (need more experience with Skyloft) for a variety of reasons. I dismissed Mario Circuit ages ago because of the glitches that could easily kill players without considering the validity of the stage itself, but those problems are gone now. After playing a few matches on it, it honestly feels great.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I know Magik in Texas does pretty well; I think Wafty does well in...California, is it?

There's Jeepy Sol in Norcal as well, I believe.

 

[Superbat]

What stream are you guys watching with Zer0?
@ Cool Thx my man

 

[Cool]

What stream are you guys watching with Zer0?

MVG Sandstorm: http://www.twitch.tv/mew2king

It's Melee, PM, and Smash 4. People have been complaining a lot about it as it has been a very poorly run stream thus far, having major lag spikes and mass banning of people attempting to help.

A lot of notable players are there though.

 

[Luco]

Wasn't Wuhu banned because of a glitch that was just recently patched out? I really love that stage, you know. <3

 

[Ulevo]

Wasn't Wuhu banned because of a glitch that was just recently patched out? I really love that stage, you know. <3

I don't think there's an issue with the stage outside of the fact that it's really large. The blast zones are huge. Though to make an objective stance on this, I'd prefer to test and compare.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

"Other than when he killed you" is not a small caveat, given that the whole point of the game is to kill your opponent faster than they kill you. And you need to remember that when you see Diddy killing you 40% later, that pre-patch Diddy also would have gotten you to those %s faster than before, by virtue of the damage on so many of his attacks being reduced by a full 2%.

And whether you noticed it or not, the change to Diddy's down-throw is very real. Hoo-Hah just isn't the same before on any level. And F-Smash has also been changed.

The nana to Up+B thing is definitely dangerous, but opponents can see it coming, and Diddy has to accept having an atrocious recovery. If Diddy wants to recover below the stage, he has to hug the stage, since he can't move horizontally with it. In that position Diddy is a sitting duck.

uthrow fair does 18% he can kill early with his up B. Which he can set up from uair and nana trips. Diddy not killing early helps but it doesn't take away from him. Shiek had her kill potential reduced and she still was considered top 2, When you kill is important but Diddy's game hasn't changed to the point to where he's fallen off. Reflex has already addressed his recovery problems so I don't believe I need to mention that. I don't know what you mean by you can see it coming. If you trip on an nana he get's a kill from his up B. I'm not really sure what you need to see coming. Diddy is going to change from what we knew about him before the patch. He's not without a doubt he best but I don't see too many characters ahead of him.

 

[Superbat]

Is twitch not loading properly for people? I've been trying to watch to m2k's twitch channel but its been buffering for at least 20 minutes. Is it just me and my ratchet internet connection? lol