Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

But compared to Marth, what's the difference? Even though Marth has 2 hitboxs, the weak one rarely adds anything and is usually discouraged. It may be useful for comboing off of nair/bair, but mostly it's just a worse hitbox for Marth in every way. So essencially, Marth really only has 1 hitbox you want, just like Lucina, but unlike her, also has to worry about an inferior hitbox. I know that Marth is still better because his tipper hitbox is better than Lucina's, however it seems unfair to say Marth has more depth when his weak hitbox doesn't add anything.

You don't truly grasp what sour spots/sweetspots do for characters...
They also have arcing hitboxes, this means that in a purely horizontal or vertical situation (or whatever rotation), untippered hitboxes can be going further than the tippered ones (this is something you usually get people to master with forward air, as it's mostly the only applicable one).

And funnily enough, Marth sour spotting in this game is actually something I encourage. It's required for him to combo well, which he is actually quite not-terrible at, and the fact of the matter is sour fair can lead into tipper fsmash (as can sour up air/bair). He's seeing follow ups from his sourspots for twice to thrice the range Lucina is able to get the same combos. Furthermore most moves the two have send in a Sakurai Angle, meaning at a certain point is the difference between a semi-spike down (which forces a tech chase) vs sending 45 degrees which doesn't give those opportunities.

Lucina really only wants to tipper because all she wants out of her sword is maximum safety which she gets less of than Marth does. Or to put it the way Sakurai does "doesn't have to think about where she hits with in her sword", because she doesn't get anything for the alternatives, ever.
Marth isn't punished (in design) for not tipping, he's rewarded for spacing closer when he wants to space closer.

This is something that is intrinsically different between Marth in both Brawl and Melee (in Brawl there weren't combos, and in Melee his tippered actions gave better rewards for combos/etc), and I guess is a nice touch were it not for Marth being terrible.

 

[allshort17]

You don't truly grasp what sour spots/sweetspots do for characters...
They also have arcing hitboxes, this means that in a purely horizontal or vertical situation (or whatever rotation), untippered hitboxes can be going further than the tippered ones (this is something you usually get people to master with forward air, as it's mostly the only applicable one).

And funnily enough, Marth sour spotting in this game is actually something I encourage. It's required for him to combo well, which he is actually quite not-terrible at, and the fact of the matter is sour fair can lead into tipper fsmash (as can sour up air/bair). He's seeing follow ups from his sourspots for twice to thrice the range Lucina is able to get the same combos. Furthermore most moves the two have send in a Sakurai Angle, meaning at a certain point is the difference between a semi-spike down (which forces a tech chase) vs sending 45 degrees which doesn't give those opportunities.

Lucina really only wants to tipper because all she wants out of her sword is maximum safety which she gets less of than Marth does. Or to put it the way Sakurai does "doesn't have to think about where she hits with in her sword", because she doesn't get anything for the alternatives, ever.
Marth isn't punished (in design) for not tipping, he's rewarded for spacing closer when he wants to space closer.

This is something that is intrinsically different between Marth in both Brawl and Melee (in Brawl there weren't combos, and in Melee his tippered actions gave better rewards for combos/etc), and I guess is a nice touch were it not for Marth being terrible.

I understand sweet/sourspot hitboxs. They give characters more more options and rewards on the same move and reward controlling which part of the hitbox a player hits with. My arguement was that Marth rarely gains anything from his sourspot, so it doesn't add much meaningful depth. You addressed that issue in saying he is rewarded for spacing closer and agreed with me that there are instances where Marth's sourpour can lead to combos and follow-ups. To be honest though, I didn't understand much of anything else you said. Do you mind rephrasing it?

 

[Shaya]

You can space well horizontally or vertically while still hitting with sourspot hitboxes on Marth's moves due to arcing animations.

Sakurai Angles have hard coded trajectory changes based on the knockback of the move. There aren't many moves the two share that aren't Sakurai Angles (dtilt notably being one that isn't). Due to Marth/Lucina's end lag issues, you would prefer semi-spiking someone over a 45 degree trajectory.

I think you got everything else. It's depth that isn't as meaningful as one would like (because they're weak characters) although I believe it's a heavy focus Marth mains need to master, at the very least it pushes Marth further than what Lucina can accomplish (beyond just killing power).

Assuming Crescent Slash is the ticket to making the two stronger characters, fact is Marth's going to have better set ups to combo into it if with just a decision that Lucina can never make.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

You can space well horizontally or vertically while still hitting with sourspot hitboxes on Marth's moves due to arcing animations.

Sakurai Angles have hard coded trajectory changes based on the knockback of the move. There aren't many moves the two share that aren't Sakurai Angles (dtilt notably being one that isn't). Due to Marth/Lucina's end lag issues, you would prefer semi-spiking someone over a 45 degree trajectory.

I think you got everything else. It's depth that isn't as meaningful as one would like (because they're weak characters) although I believe it's a heavy focus Marth mains need to master, at the very least it pushes Marth further than what Lucina can accomplish (beyond just killing power).

Assuming Crescent Slash is the ticket to making the two stronger characters, fact is Marth's going to have better set ups to combo into it if with just a decision that Lucina can never make.

Sakurai angles?

 

[Cassio]

Marth still has tipper F-tilt as a faster KO option over anything else in Lucina's kit, and the raw power of tipper Shield Breaker has to be respected in midrange. Furthermore against characters that they can't gimp offstage, Lucina still doesn't have very easy ways to kill in the air while Marth's tipper aerials actually sorta kill. I'd argue Marth is still better than Lucina because of those factors mostly, though I can probably see against Pikachu why it would be easier to win with Lucina.

I'd feel more embarrassed getting hit by tipper ftilt or shield breaker, lol. But fact of the matter is getting hit by tipper anything is as much a failure on my part as it is a success for marth. I won't be standing still waiting to get tipper tilted.

But I agree tippers best success rate is offstage or when the opponent is in an otherwise compromising position and has less options. It's a fundamental part to why Marth is not BS.

 

[LostinpinK]

If I were to make a graph of kill % vs. hit frame, the only move in the game that would be more of a positive outlier than ZSS up-b would be Rest.

Edit: Doc up-b 1 and 3 could each be comparable depending on how you framed/compared it.

Here it comes, the ranking of the 8 best moves in terms of kill power / first active frame ratio! I ignore customs for this ranking.

1. Jiggs rest, no surprise, it’s ratio is 3 times as important as the second in our ranking.

2. Doc’s up B. I can fairly say that it’s the best killmove in the game, considering its relative safety and power. Data : frame 2, kills at 70%

3. Falco’s Bair. I’m surprised as well. Data : frame 4, 117%

4. Zelda’s sweetspot Bair. Data : frame 6, kills at 81%

5. Mii Fighter’s nair. Data : frame 3, kills at 178%

6. Pac man’s Nair. Data : frame 3, kills at 178%

7. Zss up B, this tends to prove Thinkaman wrong! Data : frame 4, kills at 132%.

8. Diddy’s Uair. Keep in mind that this is grounded, pre patch. Data : frame 3, kills at 179%.

I have everything in an excel, here is a screenshot of my ratios. Everything is linear, so 300 is 3 times as effective as 100.
To create this, I used Thinkaman's KO data and frame data. Downsmash needs fixing though, since the frame used is the one of the first hit, the KO % is the one of the second. I can't work on this since I'm going on holidays but I'll be glad to share my files.
This shoud require a lot more work, but it's something.

 

[Pyr]

Here it comes, the ranking of the 8 best moves in terms of kill power / first active frame ratio! I ignore customs for this ranking.

1. Jiggs rest, no surprise, it’s ratio is 3 times as important as the second in our ranking.

2. Doc’s up B. I can fairly say that it’s the best killmove in the game, considering its relative safety and power. Data : frame 2, kills at 70%

3. Falco’s Bair. I’m surprised as well. Data : frame 4, 117%

4. Zelda’s sweetspot Bair. Data : frame 6, kills at 81%

5. Mii Fighter’s nair. Data : frame 3, kills at 178%

6. Pac man’s Nair. Data : frame 3, kills at 178%

7. Zss up B, this tends to prove Thinkaman wrong! Data : frame 4, kills at 132%.

8. Diddy’s Uair. Keep in mind that this is grounded, pre patch. Data : frame 3, kills at 179%.

I have everything in an excel, here is a screenshot of my ratios. Everything is linear, so 300 is 3 times as effective as 100.
To create this, I used Thinkaman's KO data and frame data. Downsmash needs fixing though, since the frame used is the one of the first hit, the KO % is the one of the second. I can't work on this since I'm going on holidays but I'll be glad to share my files.
This shoud require a lot more work, but it's something.

Am I the only one not seeing a screenshot or link to one, or what?

 

[webbedspace]

Sakurai angles?

"Sakurai angle" is a fan-named special varying knockback direction that starts horizontal when the target is at low %, and steadily increases to around 45 degrees after, say, 30 to 60 percent (game dependent). Most jabs and f-smashes use this angle.

The point of it is that getting jabbed at 0% shouldn't pop you into the air, whereas getting jabbed at 100% shouldn't send you flying horizontally.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

"Sakurai angle" is a fan-named special varying knockback direction that starts horizontal when the target is at low %, and steadily increases to around 45 degrees after, say, 30 to 60 percent (game dependent). Most jabs and f-smashes use this angle.

The point of it is that getting jabbed at 0% shouldn't pop you into the air, whereas getting jabbed at 100% shouldn't send you flying horizontally.

Wait wtf? I've been playing smash for like 10 years and I've never heard this. In what kind of situations would this affect followups?

 

[Luco]

I'm not really sure if I'm following you but MU's are based on the highest level of play. If esam was able to demonstrate an even MU the MU is even. Your shortcomings as a player don't decide a MU and neither does mine or anyone else's for that matter.

With that said IC's could be a problem. If you seperated them your where able to do kill their strategy. You're basically saying that we gave IC ability to kill from a grab made it simpler rolled it into one character. However, you better not complain cause IC. Stop it as for the execution requirements I do not believe that it was a difficult as you claim. My younger cousin was able to do it and he just learned from me teaching him. He's never been to smashboards never read any guides. Also with tine execution barriers can be broken all it takes is practice practice and more practice.

As for losing to a mk who has less experience than you is meaningless. You don't kniw what type of work he put into his training. If you think experience is a factor in winning you're sorely mistaken. There's also something called skill and talent. No I'm not trying to put you down as a player. What I'm attempting to do is illustrate the fallacy in your logic and reasoning.

I agree that this conversation shouldn't be a big thing really, so gonna leave this here in spoilers and move on.

Spoiler

ESAM didn't really have an even record at all with the highest level Brawl MK players. Some he did very well against, others he didn't have the record against justify the MU rating. I'm reminded of his famous set against Nairo, who I believe won even though ESAM got a successful QA infinite off ---> Fsmash kill (which was mind-blowing btw) on PS1. It seemed so unfair at the time haha, not discrediting Nairo here though. Not sure what his (ESAM's) record with everyone was by the end but I don't think it was even. I should have made that clear, soz.

ICs did have issues, separation was a killer for them, sure. But as I mentioned they had some ludicrous ways to get back together after being heavily separated (on the level of 'Idon'teven') and even SoPo got a free 50% CG on characters from 0%. And the execution isn't awful, but to do it consistently was hard. Check out some of 9B's sets against M2K. I remember a set covered by ClashTournaments that showed him screwing the CG up like 3 or 4 times. Tournament nerves are a thing even top players aren't free from. I think this point still stands.

I actually do have an idea of the experience he had (he was regularly versing a player on a similar skill level to myself), and this was during a time I was practicing Brawl almost every single day I got the chance, often for hours straight (I'm not over-exaggerating here, even though I realise it would be very difficult to prove). There is something to be said for talent, but 1 year against 2.5 years is a heck of a large disparity, not something your average MoBA player, for instance, is going to sniff at (it takes a long time to reach the competitive scene in DoTA). This point may be fallacious, but I disagree that it's meaningless.

"Sakurai angles" only became popular recently. In low-percentage situations where the opponent doesn't tech, you'll generally have a guaranteed follow-up. Even if they do tech it can be icky. Sakurai angles are awesome in this game, basically, and if your character has them they should take advantage of them. That's my understanding of them.

Rage scaling, as a general rule, is more heavily present the higher in percents you go. When we did our testing for Ness' Bthrow (I really should just always keep this up in a separate tab, anyway: http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/ ), we noticed the difference between no rage kills and 150% rage kills went up to a possible max of 33%, more likely around 30% considering human error, but only against Bowser, whilst someone like Jiggs was modestly in the teens of differences. In other words, the later you kill with a throw against a given character, the more rage is going to help you, I guess.

 

[Luigi player]

Here it comes, the ranking of the 8 best moves in terms of kill power / first active frame ratio! I ignore customs for this ranking.

1. Jiggs rest, no surprise, it’s ratio is 3 times as important as the second in our ranking.

2. Doc’s up B. I can fairly say that it’s the best killmove in the game, considering its relative safety and power. Data : frame 2, kills at 70%

3. Falco’s Bair. I’m surprised as well. Data : frame 4, 117%

4. Zelda’s sweetspot Bair. Data : frame 6, kills at 81%

5. Mii Fighter’s nair. Data : frame 3, kills at 178%

6. Pac man’s Nair. Data : frame 3, kills at 178%

7. Zss up B, this tends to prove Thinkaman wrong! Data : frame 4, kills at 132%.

8. Diddy’s Uair. Keep in mind that this is grounded, pre patch. Data : frame 3, kills at 179%.

I have everything in an excel, here is a screenshot of my ratios. Everything is linear, so 300 is 3 times as effective as 100.
To create this, I used Thinkaman's KO data and frame data. Downsmash needs fixing though, since the frame used is the one of the first hit, the KO % is the one of the second. I can't work on this since I'm going on holidays but I'll be glad to share my files.
This shoud require a lot more work, but it's something.

Where did you get these KO-%s from? Docs upB KOing at 70 looks REALLY REALLY unrealistic. It's also frame 3, not frame 2.

 

[Thinkaman]

Here it comes, the ranking of the 8 best moves in terms of kill power / first active frame ratio! I ignore customs for this ranking.

1. Jiggs rest, no surprise, it’s ratio is 3 times as important as the second in our ranking.

2. Doc’s up B. I can fairly say that it’s the best killmove in the game, considering its relative safety and power. Data : frame 2, kills at 70%

3. Falco’s Bair. I’m surprised as well. Data : frame 4, 117%

4. Zelda’s sweetspot Bair. Data : frame 6, kills at 81%

5. Mii Fighter’s nair. Data : frame 3, kills at 178%

6. Pac man’s Nair. Data : frame 3, kills at 178%

7. Zss up B, this tends to prove Thinkaman wrong! Data : frame 4, kills at 132%.

8. Diddy’s Uair. Keep in mind that this is grounded, pre patch. Data : frame 3, kills at 179%.

I have everything in an excel, here is a screenshot of my ratios. Everything is linear, so 300 is 3 times as effective as 100.
To create this, I used Thinkaman's KO data and frame data. Downsmash needs fixing though, since the frame used is the one of the first hit, the KO % is the one of the second. I can't work on this since I'm going on holidays but I'll be glad to share my files.
This shoud require a lot more work, but it's something.

Doc up-b is frame 3, not 2. It also kills at 122%, not 70%. (3DS spawn point Mario)

ZSS up-b lifts the opponent high off the ground. 132% is when the move's final hitbox would kill at ground level, but that's not at all how the move actually hits. ZSS up-b kills at 94%--with no freshness, rage, or DI--from the 3DS FD grounded Mario.

The real list: (time measured from point of armor/invincibility)

Standard ground attack
Standard aerial attack
Standard special (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Natural OoS standard attack (ground)
Natural OoS up-b (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Conditional move combination
Vertical kill move--superior, more reliable/consist kill power

1. Jigglypuff Rest: frame 2 but invincible frame 1, kills at 60%.
2. Little Mac ground KO Punch: frame 9 but armored frame 4 or 8, kills at 24%.
3. Little Mac Rising Uppercut: frame 3 but invincible frame 1, kills at 114%.
4. ZSS Lateral Kick: frame 4, kills at 77%.
5. Doc Super Jump Punch: frame 3, kills at 122%.
6. ZSS Boost Kick: frame 4, kills at 94%.
7. Ganondorf Dark Fists: frame 15 but armored frame 5, kills at 80%.
8. Falco bair: frame 4, kills at 101%.
9. Zelda bair: frame 6, kills at 71%.
10. Charizard Fly: frame 9 but armored frame 4, kills at 112%.
11. Doc Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 88%.
12. Little Mac f-tilt: frame 4, kills at 114%.
13. Yoshi nair: frame 3, kills at 161%.
14. Luigi nair: frame 3, kills at 165%.
15. Pac-Man/Mii Brawler nair: frame 3, kills at 167%.
16. Zelda Farore's Wind: frame 7, kills at 71%.
17. Mii Brawler Piston Punch: frame 4, kills at 124%.
18. Mario Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 101%.
19. Megaman u-tilt: frame 6, kills at 86%.
20. WFT bair + deep breathing: frame 6, kills at 93%.
21. Luigi Super Jump Punch: frame 8, kills at 70%.
22. Shulk grab -> b-throw + extreme Smash: frame 7, kills at 80%.
23. Marth f-smash: frame ~11-12 (varies by contact point), kills at 56%.
24. Ness grab -> b-throw: frame 6, kills at 101%.
25. Villager Timber axe: frame 6, kills at 103%.
26. Charizard u-smash: frame 6, kills at 109%.
    
27. WFT bair: frame 6, kills at 110%.
28. Zelda d-smash: frame 5, kills at 134%.
29. Zelda fair: frame 9, kills at 74%.
30. Shulk (Advancing) Air Slash + extreme Smash: frame 10, kills at 68%.

If you kep going, you'd start to quickly see a lot of u-smashes and strong bairs, as well as known fast-and-strong moves like WFT f-tilt and Mii Brawler Helicopter Kick I think high-aura Lucario would have a bunch of attacks soon as well.

 

[PUK]

Where did you get these KO-%s from? Docs upB KOing at 70 looks REALLY REALLY unrealistic. It's also frame 3, not frame 2.

doc upB is BS, sometimes it hit multiple times or bypass shield.
thinkaman, it's zelda FW2 which kill, so i would not put it in the list

 

[Thinkaman]

doc upB is BS, sometimes it hit multiple times or bypass shield.
thinkaman, it's zelda FW2 which kill, so i would not put it in the list

I mean, you have to match their DI from the first hit, but accepting that it is a true combo with no guaranteed counterplay on-hit.

 

[DunnoBro]

Kind of starting to agree with dapuffster on skinny brawler. That might be legitimately broken. He feels like sheik with a way better bouncing fish.

Considering his default size brawler almost took out pre-patch ZeRo, unless some absurd jank comes along, I think skinny brawler is likely the best customs character. I'll back that claim up by actually investing in him, of course. Gonna use him at this custom Xanadu.

 

[David Viran]

Doc up-b is frame 3, not 2. It also kills at 122%, not 70%. (3DS spawn point Mario)

ZSS up-b lifts the opponent high off the ground. 132% is when the move's final hitbox would kill at ground level, but that's not at all how the move actually hits. ZSS up-b kills at 94%--with no freshness, rage, or DI--from the 3DS FD grounded Mario.

The real list: (time measured from point of armor/invincibility)

Standard ground attack
Standard aerial attack
Standard special (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Natural OoS standard attack (ground)
Natural OoS up-b (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Conditional move combination
Vertical kill move--superior, more reliable/consist kill power

1. Jigglypuff Rest: frame 2 but invincible frame 1, kills at 60%.
2. Little Mac ground KO Punch: frame 9 but armored frame 4 or 8, kills at 24%.
3. Little Mac Rising Uppercut: frame 3 but invincible frame 1, kills at 114%.
4. ZSS Lateral Kick: frame 4, kills at 77%.
5. Doc Super Jump Punch: frame 3, kills at 122%.
6. ZSS Boost Kick: frame 4, kills at 94%.
7. Ganondorf Dark Fists: frame 15 but armored frame 5, kills at 80%.
8. Falco bair: frame 4, kills at 101%.
9. Zelda bair: frame 6, kills at 71%.
10. Charizard Fly: frame 9 but armored frame 4, kills at 112%.
11. Doc Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 88%.
12. Little Mac f-tilt: frame 4, kills at 114%.
13. Yoshi nair: frame 3, kills at 161%.
14. Luigi nair: frame 3, kills at 165%.
15. Pac-Man/Mii Brawler nair: frame 3, kills at 167%.
16. Zelda Farore's Wind: frame 7, kills at 71%.
17. Mario Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 101%.
18. Megaman u-tilt: frame 6, kills at 86%.
19. WFT bair + deep breathing: frame 6, kills at 93%.
20. Luigi Super Jump Punch: frame 8, kills at 70%.
21. Shulk grab -> b-throw + extreme Smash: frame 7, kills at 80%.
22. Marth f-smash: frame ~11-12 (varies by contact point), kills at 56%.
23. Ness grab -> b-throw: frame 6, kills at 101%.
24. Villager Timber axe: frame 6, kills at 103%.
25. Charizard u-smash: frame 6, kills at 109%.
    
26. WFT bair: frame 6, kills at 110%.
27. Zelda d-smash: frame 5, kills at 134%.
28. Zelda fair: frame 9, kills at 74%.
29. Shulk (Advancing) Air Slash + extreme Smash: frame 10, kills at 68%.
30. WFT f-tilt + deep breathing: frame 6, kills at 117%.

If you kep going, you'd start to quickly see a lot of u-smashes and strong bairs. I
think high-aura Lucario would have a bunch of attacks soon as well.

wait lateral kick kills super early and still comes out on frame 4. Is it reliable? What is the draw back?

wait lateral kick kills super early and still comes out on frame 4. How reliable is it? What's the drawback?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I really, really wish all these Bouncing Fish-like moves weren't steerable in mid-air. That feels so hopeless for certain characters to deal with.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Short/thin miis are interesting. Has there been any idea on the cooldown difference changes between Def and skinny?
Gunner's U-air seems great for anything slower then him in the air, which is maybe what 40/50% of the cast when he is skinny?

That and Swordsman is a lot smoother smooth, the loss of range is noticeable though.

 

[Djent]

But skinny Brawler, like Sheik, still relies on killing you in very specific ways. For the folks who are starting to think Sheik (who has a real projectile) is no longer #2, Brawler should be a tough sell for #1.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Throwing Wario's Bike downward causes it to bounce differently depending on what direction you're facing, though the angle it flies is still the same.

A hard throw downward facing right causes the front of the Bike stays low while it bounces, giving Wario about four frames where the Bike is not covering a Dash Grab/Dash Attack before he can move again (assuming the opponent is the same height as Wario; the window is smaller for characters like Captain Falcon).

A hard throw downward facing left acts differently, giving Wario about eight frames of vulnerability. The Bike bounces in a way that doesn't protect you as well.

A soft throw downward in either direction leaves Wario vulnerable for about six frames; the back of the Bike stays low, and it's always on his left. This is better for hitting opponents if they manage to Dash Grab you, I suppose.

This is fairly minuscule, but, if you're throwing the Bike around, try to be on the left, facing right. It's safer that way.

 

[DunnoBro]

But skinny Brawler, like Sheik, still relies on killing you in very specific ways. For the folks who are starting to think Sheik (who has a real projectile) is no longer #2, Brawler should be a tough sell for #1.

Brawler has better smashes, and a WAY better bouncing fish. Easier to hit with, easier to kill with, easier to set-up into for a kill... It's even an OoS option.

He also has a more consistent raptor boost, and a chargeable KO punch. (Weaker, but is a good OoS option which makes up for the fact he doesn't have a super strong OoS smash option)

Sheik has a better neutral, priority, and overall versatility. She has options for days and is hard to punish.

But brawler's consistency is still high. If sheik is considered the pinnacle of options and versatility in sm4sh (10/10) and pre-patch Diddy the pinnacle of combo and kill potential, I'd place brawler around 7 or 8 out of 10 for neutral, and kill/combo 9/10.

Note: This only applies to skinny brawler due to the increased air and ground speed enabling the DUMBEST combos and chases.

I really, really wish all these Bouncing Fish-like moves weren't steerable in mid-air. That feels so hopeless for certain characters to deal with.

I like the idea, but some of them just do too much.

They should only serve so many purposes, but it feels like a lot of them serve way too many.

1: Easily set-up
2: Kills
3: Breaks you out of bad situations

Only 2 of the 3 should be present. For the most part, the game does follow this even for customs. Only kong cyclone, hurricane kick, and maybe dark fist break this pattern. (Though in the case of dark fist the "set-up" is someone mis-spacing on your shield or going for a non-true combo in the wrong spot)

 

[Jams.]

But skinny Brawler, like Sheik, still relies on killing you in very specific ways. For the folks who are starting to think Sheik (who has a real projectile) is no longer #2, Brawler should be a tough sell for #1.

The differences in kill % between Sheik's set-ups and 0/0 Brawler's set-ups are massive. Brawler, if he grabs you by the ledge, can get a guaranteed kill around 30-40% (dthrow->fair->upb). If he grabs you centre stage, he can get a guaranteed kill around 60-70% (dthrow ->double jump uair->upb). Sheik can't even dream of killing you that early.

 

[Bjurrse]

Even as a brawler main from day 1, I feel the character should be limited to default size. It is not balanced with such speed and aerial mobility, on such a small character.

Im sure people will bust out counters, after his increased success and popularity, but PLEASE Custom move project, limit him to default size.

 

[Unknownkid]

Even as a brawler main from day 1, I feel the character should be limited to default size. It is not balanced with such speed and aerial mobility, on such a small character.

Im sure people will bust out counters, after his increased success and popularity, but PLEASE Custom move project, limit him to default size.

Dapuffster agrees... so you are not alone.

 

[Nobie]

Should the other Mii Fighter types be forced into default settings, or should they be given the freedom to optimize?

 

[DunnoBro]

There could be an issue with just limiting brawler to default, though.

I don't like the idea of differing mii sizes in general... For one thing, if guest miis are the standard, it could be easier to segway them into default tournaments.

But it is also akin to equipment, altering the properties of characters. Unlike customs, it does actually change things fundamentally. New combos work or don't work, the neutral/punish game is different...

I know that the other fighters aren't really an issue while small, but the thing is I really want customs in the future to not be restricted to sets. This means at that time, the mii fighters would be able to change their sizes on the fly. I'm sorry, but I don't think that's healthy.

(Disallowing them would also help tournament logistics a bit, as putting all the mii fighters on the 3ds takes almost as long as it does putting on all the other characters. We could just ignore putting them on 3ds and have people make the ones they need from guest miis. Though this is somewhat negligible)

 

[Djent]

Mii properties exist on a different axis than the main custom debate IMO. They are their own factors that no other characters have access to, so I don't think limiting size necessarily goes against "the spirit of customs" or whatever. That being said, I am tentatively in favor of letting them do it anyway.

 

[Bjurrse]

Should the other Mii Fighter types be forced into default settings, or should they be given the freedom to optimize?

Honestly I have dabbled quite a bit with both Gunner and Swordfighter, and they need size-changes a lot more than Brawler. But honestly, even as a believer in customs, I find it best to just use the default sizes.

New "best sizes" will probably pop up after some time, and by then everyone has to relearn the matchups.

It might be grim to swordfighter mains, but I feel the default size is the size they where balanced around. (debatable)

And aesthetically it is better to have normal dudes and gals running around, than super smurf brothers.

 

[DunnoBro]

It should be noted this is not an issue with customs, the miis having these sizes are totally possible with customs turned off. (Well, so are their customs)

It's simply an another, less talked about rule change that happened alongside customs.

 

[Bjurrse]

Yes, changing specials is one thing. Altering base-stats is far more yucky. What I meant with believing in customs, is that I am open to change, when it is "fair". Changing base-stats is exclusive to mii´s and is an entirely new wall to tackle.

 

[DunnoBro]

If we get to the point we decide other characters require certain pieces of equipment to be viable, then fighters should be allowed to change sizes, since they're within the same realm of change.

Of course, this may still be too rash. Unless brawler proves problematic and people end up using more than 1 size mii (small seems universally best) there may be no need to take action. But I do hope we can come to a clean and quick decision if that time comes.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Small Mii Brawler is bananas.

But compared to Marth, what's the difference? Even though Marth has 2 hitboxs, the weak one rarely adds anything and is usually discouraged. It may be useful for comboing off of nair/bair, but mostly it's just a worse hitbox for Marth in every way. So essencially, Marth really only has 1 hitbox you want, just like Lucina, but unlike her, also has to worry about an inferior hitbox. I know that Marth is still better because his tipper hitbox is better than Lucina's, however it seems unfair to say Marth has more depth when his weak hitbox doesn't add anything.

Hitlag modifier.

Only character in the game that has them on virtually every move in his kit.

Ii's..kinda sort of a big deal.

 

[Balgorxz]

mii sizes should be default IMO unless they are proven to be really bad, for example mii sword is terrible but if somehow an optimized weight makes him less bad I'd agree to it.

 

[GeneralLedge]

It might be grim to swordfighter mains, but I feel the default size is the size they where balanced around. (debatable)

To be frank, default Mii Sword really isn't that bad. I tend to run mid/heavy, personally. It really boils down to playstyle though, and I can't consistently shorthop with my fat thumbs, so a fat Mii's lower regular jump is actually helpful to me. But that's a weird non-debate nobody will dip into.

Mii Sizes in general are weird because in themselves none of them are really that balanced. Have you tried playing tall/heavy Mii Gunner? You could argue being a macho swordfighter or brawler to some effect being a faux-tank of pain, but Mii Gunner gets absolutely no benefits from the same. On the opposite end, Mii Sword suffers very bad disjoint from the smallest size, where Brawler and Gunner excel at being demi-god level pests, Gunner even moreso due to his projectile moveset.

And yet, I can't really figure out where exactly the problem lies. I would argue the lag versus damage is not even slightly worth it, but why is it there at all?

And then my mind comes to a simple conclusion: Both Miis and Customs rely explicitly on "What if"s. AA may argue there's a subtle balance dynamic behind customs, but there's plenty of crap customs nobody may ever find a use for (ie. Clothesline tornado), so I can only conclude the idea people brainstormed what ifs instead of practical use, likely from a kid's point of view. "What if Link's spinslash generated electricity? What if Donkey Kong spin so fast it caused a hurricane? What if Game and Watch's hammer only generated a 1 or a 9?"

It's hard to argue Mii sizes causing disarray when many are explicitly not useful, and only one is so far likely to become a universal problem.

 

[Superbat]

Doc up-b is frame 3, not 2. It also kills at 122%, not 70%. (3DS spawn point Mario)

ZSS up-b lifts the opponent high off the ground. 132% is when the move's final hitbox would kill at ground level, but that's not at all how the move actually hits. ZSS up-b kills at 94%--with no freshness, rage, or DI--from the 3DS FD grounded Mario.

The real list: (time measured from point of armor/invincibility)

Standard ground attack
Standard aerial attack
Standard special (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Natural OoS standard attack (ground)
Natural OoS up-b (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Conditional move combination
Vertical kill move--superior, more reliable/consist kill power

1. Jigglypuff Rest: frame 2 but invincible frame 1, kills at 60%.
2. Little Mac ground KO Punch: frame 9 but armored frame 4 or 8, kills at 24%.
3. Little Mac Rising Uppercut: frame 3 but invincible frame 1, kills at 114%.
4. ZSS Lateral Kick: frame 4, kills at 77%.
5. Doc Super Jump Punch: frame 3, kills at 122%.
6. ZSS Boost Kick: frame 4, kills at 94%.
7. Ganondorf Dark Fists: frame 15 but armored frame 5, kills at 80%.
8. Falco bair: frame 4, kills at 101%.
9. Zelda bair: frame 6, kills at 71%.
10. Charizard Fly: frame 9 but armored frame 4, kills at 112%.
11. Doc Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 88%.
12. Little Mac f-tilt: frame 4, kills at 114%.
13. Yoshi nair: frame 3, kills at 161%.
14. Luigi nair: frame 3, kills at 165%.
15. Pac-Man/Mii Brawler nair: frame 3, kills at 167%.
16. Zelda Farore's Wind: frame 7, kills at 71%.
17. Mario Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 101%.
18. Megaman u-tilt: frame 6, kills at 86%.
19. WFT bair + deep breathing: frame 6, kills at 93%.
20. Luigi Super Jump Punch: frame 8, kills at 70%.
21. Shulk grab -> b-throw + extreme Smash: frame 7, kills at 80%.
22. Marth f-smash: frame ~11-12 (varies by contact point), kills at 56%.
23. Ness grab -> b-throw: frame 6, kills at 101%.
24. Villager Timber axe: frame 6, kills at 103%.
25. Charizard u-smash: frame 6, kills at 109%.
    
26. WFT bair: frame 6, kills at 110%.
27. Zelda d-smash: frame 5, kills at 134%.
28. Zelda fair: frame 9, kills at 74%.
29. Shulk (Advancing) Air Slash + extreme Smash: frame 10, kills at 68%.
30. WFT f-tilt + deep breathing: frame 6, kills at 117%.

If you kep going, you'd start to quickly see a lot of u-smashes and strong bairs. I think high-aura Lucario would have a bunch of attacks soon as well.

I think Falco's bair is the most practical one in top 10 that is both extremely safe and strong at the same time. I'm pretty sure his bair short hop auto cancels as well. (I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on this one because I have bias for falco so call me out if i'm fradulent plz)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Kind of starting to agree with dapuffster on skinny brawler. That might be legitimately broken. He feels like sheik with a way better bouncing fish.

Considering his default size brawler almost took out pre-patch ZeRo, unless some absurd jank comes along, I think skinny brawler is likely the best customs character. I'll back that claim up by actually investing in him, of course. Gonna use him at this custom Xanadu.

Mii brawler is a problem. screw that character.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Miis should absolutely be restricted to standard size. If people want to treat them like real characters then they shouldnt get options not granted to the rest of the cast. I'd even argue that they shouldnt get to change moves from fight to fight (not sure if this ever even happens though), as in whatever special set they enter in as is the only set they can use for the tourney, no counter picking to a Mii with a different side-b. They already get to cherry pick the best ones, dont particularly think itd be fair to let them counter pick moves for a specific MU.
And I dont know how I feel about allowing them in vanilla, I think there should be a recognized load-out that is the only one allowed, so players know exactly what to expect. Puts them under the same burden of knowledge everyone else is in for players, no need to discover how different sets would change the MU for either side, SF would always be SF.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Miis should absolutely be restricted to standard size. If people want to treat them like real characters then they shouldnt get options not granted to the rest of the cast. I'd even argue that they shouldnt get to change moves from fight to fight (not sure if this ever even happens though), as in whatever special set they enter in as is the only set they can use for the tourney, no counter picking to a Mii with a different side-b. They already get to cherry pick the best ones, dont particularly think itd be fair to let them counter pick moves for a specific MU.
And I dont know how I feel about allowing them in vanilla, I think there should be a recognized load-out that is the only one allowed, so players know exactly what to expect. Puts them under the same burden of knowledge everyone else is in for players, no need to discover how different sets would change the MU for either side, SF would always be SF.

Well different moves being changed isn't that big of a deal. Especially in a custom environment. Although I think mii brawler is bs I don't think we should really restrict him. The way we've handled miis so far has been pretty bad.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Well different moves being changed isn't that big of a deal. Especially in a custom environment. Although I think mii brawler is bs I don't think we should really restrict him. The way we've handled miis so far has been pretty bad.

You really should re-consider when you simply had never fought the character before and then you had to fight the absolute best Mii Brawler main in tournament. You beat the Tiny Mii brawler that fought you before and then you lost to my default Mii Brawler. Dabuz's rosalina handles my Mii Brawler just fine, in-fact Dabuz doesn't even think Mii Brawler is top 5. There is no reason to restrict the character.

 

[Kenturo]

It doesn't make sense to restrict all Miis just because you think that one Mii is "too good" because that is completely subjective. Miis dont even have results to support something like that. If you make that argument that what is going to stop people from saying default size is too good and then saying that all Miis should be max height and weight because it makes them "balanced." Restricting them would also leave Gunner and Swordfighter worse off. Besides even if Brawler because that big of a problem he will just get nerfed the next balance patch.

Just play and enjoy the game as it is for better or for worse.