Character Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

Something Ive been pondering of late; I think Sheik is hurt pretty badly by the 2-stock meta and cant/wont dominate tournaments as long as it remains the norm.

Reasons: Being the first to lose a stock hurts Sheik more than anyone due to her needing rage to kill at reasonable %s. If she falls first then she now needs around 30% more or so, but its now also more difficult to rack that extra damage since the opponent is already past her reliable combo %s. Now when she does take that first stock, the gravy damage shes taken will put her into rage sooner, again causing her combos to break early. All of this makes me think that a Sheik in a hole is in a lot more trouble than most any other character; an uphill battle with her is much steeper. With only 2 lives there isnt as much opportunity to outplay the opponent enough in order to make a comeback, since a comeback with her is made more difficult by the games mechanics.

Just a thought, would love to hear peoples opinions about it, whether theres some thruth there or Im just crazy.

Thank god for the bair nerf, it actually gives her this weakness. As someone else said though, I think lucario has a worse problem with this than shiek, although she certainly suffers as well. He has the same problems (kill power greatly diminished, and if he does take damage he can't combo next stock as effectively) except they are exaggerated because he has rage and aura to worry about.


Really I think its just a characteristic of the game more than shiek. In smash, especially post melee, being down a stock sucks. You are hunting for a kill to even things out; they are simply trying to get damage any way they can. AND they have time on their side, meaning they not only know the above strategy, but you have to eventually come to them unless your character can kill with projectiles. It does feel worse in 2stock simply because you die once and suddenly you are on your last stock.

 

[TheZyzyva]

I should say I think comebacks for anyone is more difficult in the 2-stock (and why I will always prefer 3) but Sheiks fighting style makes it even harder than it is for others.

Although Lucario would have a hard time as well, thats deffinitely true. But his hard read potential gives him a slight leg up on Sheik I would say.

Edit: I wouldnt consider GDubs a victim since he isnt nearly as much a combo character. With usmash and uair he doesnt struggle mightily to close stocks regardless of rage. Plus a yolo 9 can change everything. Hes simply a victim of being too light.

Charizard (and the other heavies) have such strong survivability and benefit from rage enough that even if they do take a lot of gravy damage, that just gives them the rage to take the final stock sooner. They dont really need rage to get kills but with it theyre even more dangerous, I see them having more comeback potential than most.

 

[bc1910]

Lucario has this problem way worse than Sheik or indeed anyone else in the game but I refrained from using him as an example because of Aura. A mechanic that completely changes the dynamic here. It's basically Lucario's design to be amazing if he takes the first stock and screwed if he doesn't.

 

[Megamang]

I should say I think comebacks for anyone is more difficult in the 2-stock (and why I will always prefer 3) but Sheiks fighting style makes it even harder than it is for others.

Although Lucario would have a hard time as well, thats deffinitely true. But his hard read potential gives him a slight leg up on Sheik I would say.

Edit: I wouldnt consider GDubs a victim since he isnt nearly as much a combo character. With usmash and uair he doesnt struggle mightily to close stocks regardless of rage. Plus a yolo 9 can change everything. Hes simply a victim of being too light.

Charizard (and the other heavies) have such strong survivability and benefit from rage enough that even if they do take a lot of gravy damage, that just gives them the rage to take the final stock sooner. They dont really need rage to get kills but with it theyre even more dangerous, I see them having more comeback potential than most.

I don't think coming back trying for a hard read out of a stock deficit is a good strategy. If they know you are trying desperately for the kill, they just play extremely safe and do chip damage while the timer runs out and you grow more and more frustrated. 9's are a good kill here and there but really aren't reliable at all; definitely not reliable enough to get you out of pools consistently =[

 

[TheZyzyva]

Lucario has this problem way worse than Sheik or indeed anyone else in the game but I refrained from using him as an example because of Aura. A mechanic that completely changes the dynamic here. It's basically Lucario's design to be amazing if he takes the first stock and screwed if he doesn't.

Heres why I dont entirely agree.
Lurcarios aura scales slightly with a stock difference, so down a stock hes still not at his weakest. Certainly weaker, but not so much that he needs to get hit a ton for enough aura to kill. Plus, any extra damage he takes just makes him stronger so he can do more damage to more quickly even the %s. He literally does more damage the higher his % is whereas Sheik, due to rage interrupting her combos, deals less damage the more she takes. That is my general idea at least, but Im glad to hear yours as well.

I don't think coming back trying for a hard read out of a stock deficit is a good strategy. If they know you are trying desperately for the kill, they just play extremely safe and do chip damage while the timer runs out and you grow more and more frustrated. 9's are a good kill here and there but really aren't reliable at all; definitely not reliable enough to get you out of pools consistently =[

I mentioned the 9s as a way that he can win on the last stock even if hes way behind in damage. Sure theyre not consistent but being so light he has a pretty small window to make a comeback, if things look grim he has a chance to roll the dice like no one else can. Only takes one.

 

[Megamang]

Heres why I dont entirely agree.
Lurcarios aura scales slightly with a stock difference, so down a stock hes still not at his weakest. Certainly weaker, but not so much that he needs to get hit a ton for enough aura to kill. Plus, any extra damage he takes just makes him stronger so he can do more damage to more quickly even the %s. He literally does more damage the higher his % is whereas Sheik, due to rage interrupting her combos, deals less damage the more she takes. That is my general idea at least, but Im glad to hear yours as well.


I mentioned the 9s as a way that he can win on the last stock even if hes way behind in damage. Sure theyre not consistent but being so light he has a pretty small window to make a comeback, if things look grim he has a chance to roll the dice like no one else can. Only takes one.

Lucario does get a slight boost while shiek is harmed by rage, true.
From a Lucario perspective it just sucks to lose the first stock way worse than shiek; this is from my rather limited experience playing each competitively.

As Lucario, its just so frustrating losing a really close first stock. Them landing a kill move is the difference between "Ok, I get to do as much damage as I can this stock while boosted, and my range is improved on my foward B, my shadow ball is bigger, and I have a pretty great recovery by now." vs "****, I have to come back... and my recovery is ****, my forward B wont kill or have a decent hitbox, and moves that were almost killing him now aren't going to kill for a long time."

Perhaps its just annoying because before getting killed, getting hit helps a little. And, you spend the entire game with aura in your mind, not just 100% +

My point was in a competitive environment it takes 2 to win a set for you if you aren't winning otherwise, and hoping for that to progress through the bracket is hopeless. I was a GaW main in Brawl; minus being flashy or free punishes hoping for the best, there is almost always a more punishing alternative than the average damage done by the judgement hammer.

Then again, I don't like to gamble much as a player.

 

[Jaxas]

It's not really 2-stock that is the problem for Sheik, it's that Sheik's largest enemy in the entire game is the rage mechanic.
Even if you're on the same stock and both at high percents, Rage doesn't really help Sheik at all (in fact it just makes any combos/strings she may have been able to get that much harder to land than if just the opponent was at high percent).
The only 'kill moves' she has that benefit from rage are Bouncing Fish, Vanish (lol), Usmash, and Uair (and eventually Ftilt...).

Vanish should never land in the first place, Usmash isn't really that good for catching people, and BF/Uair lose the setups into them.
Bair was the one move that really benefited from Rage, but since that's gone...

Sheik gets rage? Sheik Needle Camps until Ftilt or Fair kill.

 

[bc1910]

I know about the stock boost but here's why I think it's negligible - the stock boost is very small. There was a thread discussing it recently and the boost pales in comparison to general aura boost. It's actually smaller with only one opponent and one stock deficit, it's more potent in teams. Lucario still has to deal with the whole "I can't kill you until I take tons of damage" thing, primarily because at high level, Lucario's kill moves that don't require copious amounts of aura are very hard to land. So you end up taking a ton of damage, killing them and then dying anyway.

Whereas Sheik's kill moves don't work until high percent but they're not as hard to hit with. You're less likely to take a load of damage before being able to get the kill, and as I said Sheik's advantage is so good she can easily make up the difference, complemented by her excellent neutral allowing her to move to advantage quickly. Being at high percent hurts Sheik more than Lucario obviously but she's just not as likely to get to as high percent as he is, making her less boned if she falls behind.

Rage CAN screw her up though, I don't agree with everything Jaxas said but he's on the right lines. If Sheik gets to a really high percent and is a stock behind then she's way more boned than Lucario but I think she's just... way less likely to get there.

Honestly I can only go by my experience but Sheik is one of the characters I'm most comfortable falling behind with. The character just wins neutral. It's what she does. And she can do it enough times to come back if she falls behind.

 

[Megamang]

I know about the stock boost but here's why I think it's negligible - the stock boost is very small. There was a thread discussing it recently and the boost pales in comparison to general aura boost. It's actually smaller with only one opponent and one stock deficit, it's more potent in teams. Lucario still has to deal with the whole "I can't kill you until I take tons of damage" thing, primarily because at high level, Lucario's kill moves that don't require copious amounts of aura are very hard to land. So you end up taking a ton of damage, killing them and then dying anyway.

Whereas Sheik's kill moves don't work until high percent but they're not as hard to hit with. You're less likely to take a load of damage before being able to get the kill, and as I said Sheik's advantage is so good she can easily make up the difference, complemented by her excellent neutral allowing her to move to advantage quickly. Being at high percent hurts Sheik more than Lucario obviously but she's just not as likely to get to as high percent as he is, making her less boned if she falls behind.

Rage CAN screw her up though, I don't agree with everything Jaxas said but he's on the right lines. If Sheik gets to a really high percent and is a stock behind then she's way more boned than Lucario but I think she's just... way less likely to get there.

Honestly I can only go by my experience but Sheik is one of the characters I'm most comfortable falling behind with. The character just wins neutral. It's what she does. And she can do it enough times to come back if she falls behind.

It appears we both feel the same way not due to her vs lucario's playstyle, but rather how ****ing good she is. Falling behind isn't so bad when you can still crush them in neutral and advantage while not being too bad off in disadvantage due to bouncing fish.

Shiek...

 

[Blobface]

Rage overall benefits heavier characters much more than lighter ones. Their combos/strings aren't affected since they usually aren't really "true" combos in the first place, and they gain the ability to get kills below 50%.

Rage Ganon makes Jigglypuff cry.

 

[Megamang]

Rage overall benefits heavier characters much more than lighter ones. Their combos/strings aren't affected since they usually aren't really "true" combos in the first place, and they gain the ability to get kills below 50%.

Rage Ganon makes Jigglypuff cry.

Which is a great asset, since safe damage racking light characters are usually the best in smash. They definitely are in smash4, so a mechanic which doesn't benefit them much and helps the heavies is very welcome in my mind. I just wish it grew linearly, so being at 99% wouldn't be so annoying.

 

[Conda]

Small Mii Brawler is bananas.



Hitlag modifier.

Only character in the game that has them on virtually every move in his kit.

Ii's..kinda sort of a big deal.

You and others (myself included at times) keep mentioning how bad marth is though, so how big a deal can it be?

 

[Djent]

Sheik can at least set up for kills with Paralyzing Needles (see: Zex) and Gravity Grenade. I never thought I'd say Sheik benefited from the customs meta, but the BAir nerf means that she does IMO.

BTW, Paralyzing > Penetrating as she needs all the help killing that she can get.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You and others (myself included at times) keep mentioning how bad marth is though, so how big a deal can it be?

It's the reason why he and Lucina are an entire tier apart.

So it's a pretty big deal.

Also any character is bad when they get their frame data absolutely demolished by their creator.

 

[meleebrawler]

Sheik can at least set up for kills with Paralyzing Needles (see: Zex) and Gravity Grenade. I never thought I'd say Sheik benefited from the customs meta, but the BAir nerf means that she does IMO.

BTW, Paralyzing > Penetrating as she needs all the help killing that she can get.

But she all but loses the ability to camp well, since they fire so slow...

 

[Emblem Lord]

when you said camp, i wanted to kill an orphan.

You meant to say her neutral game and ability to control space horizontally suffers.

I forgive you

 

[Megamang]

when you said camp, i wanted to kill an orphan.

You meant to say her neutral game and ability to control space horizontally suffers.

I forgive you

You mean she loses the ability to perpetually be in "neutral" while constantly firing high damage high priority needles near-untouchably?

=P

 

[Shaya]

when you said high damage, i wanted to kill a puppy [not really].


Also at the very least Sheik benefits from rage with needles. At 0% point blank needles aren't safe on hit. At some point afterwards fishing and fsmashes start becoming mighty close to real.

 

[PUK]

i like rage: many characters have issues getting enough damage to kill past a certain percent. But if i take rage in account i have to use my combo/string when i can, so without being damaged, but then i can face tank until rage compensates what i need. It's an whole new strategic dimension in a fighting game.

 

[Luco]

when you said camp, i wanted to kill an orphan.

when you said high damage, i wanted to kill a puppy

Oh my god I walked into this thread at the wroooooong time.

And I support rage 100% (get it?). I'm definitely not biased. Not even a bit.

*cough* With the exception of characters that can skew rage numbers into their favour, I actually love the rage mechanic. While one can argue the inclusion of 'comeback' mechanics affects legitimate strategy, I can argue that heavies in smash 4 needed this mechanic to be semi-decent and unless the character is top tier, the numbers aren't skewed enough to make the mechanic particularly abusable (as in, if the character has their fair share of good, even and bad MUs which are decided based on this knowledge then it might as well have been some random innate character attribute).

Or in other words, if rage was a mechanic that only applied to heavies in smash, I don't think it would be particularly bad game design, or worse than any other piece of game design that attempts to make heavies, as a general rule, more balanced vs. the rest of the cast.

 

[Zean]

Sheik can at least set up for kills with Paralyzing Needles (see: Zex) and Gravity Grenade. I never thought I'd say Sheik benefited from the customs meta, but the BAir nerf means that she does IMO.

BTW, Paralyzing > Penetrating as she needs all the help killing that she can get.

Got footage of Zex using Paralysing Needles? last time i saw him he was using penetrating needles.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Got footage of Zex using Paralysing Needles? last time i saw him he was using penetrating needles.

On teamspookys yt channel are the NorCal regionals top 8, Zex is there using paralyzing, according to the commentators. Didnt watch all his fights to see if he made good use or not though. Did get a good gravity grenade in, however.

Also this was where Zero and Ito made it to GF as Diddys, then went Capt and MK, respectively. Ito puts up a fight but some untimely SDs killed any chance he had. Should note though Zero sent Ito to losers off the bat, in a Diddy ditto.

 

[webbedspace]

I just wish it grew linearly, so being at 99% wouldn't be so annoying.

It is, though? Only the steam animation starts at 100%.

 

[Radical Larry]

Rage overall benefits heavier characters much more than lighter ones. Their combos/strings aren't affected since they usually aren't really "true" combos in the first place, and they gain the ability to get kills below 50%.

Rage Ganon makes Jigglypuff cry.

Here's how Rage works with Ganondorf; he's the only character (not counting suicides or counters) who has a definite One-Hit KO attack (from 0% to death) because of Rage's effects. Yes, it's a hard move to land, but once it connects, it has a chance to instantly KO the opponent. This is only really good if the opponent is somewhere near the edge of the platform, in which they're guaranteed to be KO'd if the attack connects.

 

[Blobface]

@ Ffamran have you got any video of customs Bowser? I've yet to see any tournament matches with custom Bowser, and I'm really curious what he's capable of.

 

[Gamegenie222]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp
Chokaigi 2015 big tourney is starting up from Japan in which M2K, Zero, MJG and Fow is at.

 

[Djent]

^ Welp, thought I was going to bed.

Tourney is stacked from the looks of things.

EDIT: FYI, Luminous was a great who is now playing and doing quite well vs. Zero.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Damn I have a tournament tomorrow, but I need to watch some of this.
best of 1, such a turn off

 

[Conda]

Excited to tune in. Definitely padding time with their presentation and audience-focused announcer elements rather than focusing on starting matches. But this is a different kind of production/event than we may be used to.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

LOL M2K looked so confused XD

 

[Conda]

LOL M2K looked so confused XD

It was likely a case of "uh I've been sitting here for 5 minutes, can we play? It's only one darn match, why're we wasting time talking to the audience when that time could be spent fighting?"

 

[HeavyLobster]

@ Ffamran have you got any video of customs Bowser? I've yet to see any tournament matches with custom Bowser, and I'm really curious what he's capable of.

I've got some 1311 custom Bowser footage I sent to a friend with a capture card that'll hopefully be uploaded soon. I can let you know when it's up. It's a friendly, not a tourney, though. I'm not sure my Bowser's ready for prime time just yet. As far as his competitive capabilities, I feel custom Bowser is decent, but still held back by his classic weaknesses at high levels of play. Think he's a bit below custom Ganon overall. He's probably still mid to low-mid in terms of rankings, though he's more able to work around his bad matchups than without customs.

 

[Gamegenie222]

No Japanese players in singles bracket all have been eliminated . The West coming over and pooping on nerds.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran have you got any video of customs Bowser? I've yet to see any tournament matches with custom Bowser, and I'm really curious what he's capable of.

No, but there were three Bowsers yesterday at Come On and Ban; Scourge, Kato, and Big Sean. I don't know how far Big Sean got, but Scourge and Kato were eliminated around Winners Semis with Scourge picking default Lucina for some reason and getting bodied by Big Sean after a Bowser ditto and Kato went 1-2 against someone's Peach - one of the commentator's whose name I don't remember. Either it was Big Sean or Scourge who kept using Flying Slam while the others used Dash Slam and one of them kept Bowser's default Flame Breath while the others used the fireball custom. It wasn't much since they mostly used Bowser's regular moves, but Dash Slam improves Bowser's recovery, but there's an issue where Bowser can whiff it if they player doesn't space it correctly - Kato whiffed a lot of Dash Slams from what I remember by dashing right through Peach. I think Big Sean did a Dash Slam cancel into something.

I don't play Bowser and I don't watch him much, but you could just go to Youtube, search Bowser with or without the SSB4 and use the filter to find the latest videos by having the search prioritize upload dates. I'm going to assume that showdowngg, the channel that uploads Come On and Ban videos will have custom Bowser videos.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

So after watching zero and m2k in chokagi tonight i am now fully convinced that universal fundamentals and techniques > character specific strategies. As a long time Diddy main I am absolutely baffled looking at how well those two did against the best players in japan when they hardly even used the banana. When m2k was playing that ness player in particular, he had many, many opportunities to pluck a banana for free before spamming peanuts to force an approach but he didn't do that, because it wasn't even necessary since his spacing, reads, and reaction speed were legitimately that amazing. In zero's matches it was slightly less noticeable, but he didn't set up as many bananas as he could either. Not even close.

They were playing Diddy like the patch never happened and BODYING people. These two are clearly on another level; they can both play like half of the character and meet up in grand finals to screw around with falcon mirrors like its a joke anyway.

This is kind of weird to say since they're like the two best players on the planet right now but if they actually learned complicated banana setups and added it to their mastery of Diddy's normals? They would both never lose a single game unless they were facing each other at the same tourney. Sweet Jesus...

 

[David Viran]

What Japanese players are at this tournament?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Ignore this, mistype. My bad.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Mewtwo's airdodge was brought up so I'm just gonna fangirl over how good it is

Intangible F2-24, FAF F28
Only 1F startup
Only 4F endlag
DJAD is great for getting tf out of bad situations and creating space

I think the only character with a comparable airdodge is WFT but I haven't run the numbers on her yet, that'll be tomorrow.

It's kind of held back by slowish aerials but F6 FAir isn't too bad because of its range and NAir hits a frame later but has basically nonexistent endlag, like a reverse Greninja NAir.

 

[Nysyr]

Thought they standardized air dodges in 1.0.4. Huh.

Jigglypuff would be a good measuring stick, I think. Pretty spammable air dodge.

 

[Lavani]

Thought they standardized air dodges in 1.0.4. Huh.

Jigglypuff would be a good measuring stick, I think. Pretty spammable air dodge.

They standardized airdodge landing lag in 1.0.4, not airdodges themselves.