Character Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

I'm gonna respond first about ROB: ROB is heavy, and so can benefits from rage more than M2, olimar and most of the other kill thrower. ROB has two good projectiles and many fast move. And prepatch most ROB player used to abuse these two strenghts, to the point ROB meta looks a little like : spam projectiles, then grab, then kill. It was overall as boring as diddy or ness. With the nerf it's only a good kill option if we can't land anything else past 140%.

About the tiers, currently the model we use is a mess and nowhere close to be unified. Is it bad or good idk? But, and i think i'm not alone, when i look at others tier list my first complain is that there is more space between the firsts and the lasts mid tier than between the firsts mid tier and the lasts High tier. Mid tier is BS in most TL, because any character which is not bad but not really seen in tournament, with the characters not bad but not good, and the characters pretty bad bud not so much are put there. And that's mostly because those who make TL want to keep high and low tier little.

For exemple
S:
A
B
C
D

It's a standard TL, with awful things, and some randomness, but it looks like most tier list in the way character are disposed.
Now what i want to do is
Clearly dominant:
Others high tier:
Mid tier:
Low tier:

every thing below high tier lack regular tournament results, and everything above low tier could theorically won a tornament when it's not already the case (custom on obviously). It's not a good TL, but by using a big high tier and a big low tier i avoid sub tier and a lot of arbitrary judgment.

... So, basically, you're agreeing with me? This discussion has been so confusing.

Though I will say if most of mid tier happens to have similar results then it's fine if they're in about the same tier. And of course it's hard to sort out the mid tiers from the mid-highs and mid-lows, and preferably what you do is start out with a tier list with slightly less tiers, then as time goes on, character positions are debated and more characters fall solidly into their positions, you can nut the tiers out, much more like Brawl (by the 4th-8th tier lists, people were like "PEACH ISN'T BELOW G&W" and that was about as radical as the opinions came! ).

I'm just mamash confused guys. MAMASH CONFUSED. (TL note: "mamash" = "very", more or less.)

 

[PUK]

What i agree with you or you agree with me?

Seriously i think at the beginning i just rejected the top 10 system because it seems to me that it's doesn't reflect reality, and the tendancy we have to make the mid tier a tier where everyone go if we're not sure of the place.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Doc up-b is frame 3, not 2. It also kills at 122%, not 70%. (3DS spawn point Mario)

ZSS up-b lifts the opponent high off the ground. 132% is when the move's final hitbox would kill at ground level, but that's not at all how the move actually hits. ZSS up-b kills at 94%--with no freshness, rage, or DI--from the 3DS FD grounded Mario.

The real list: (time measured from point of armor/invincibility)

Standard ground attack
Standard aerial attack
Standard special (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Natural OoS standard attack (ground)
Natural OoS up-b (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Conditional move combination
Vertical kill move--superior, more reliable/consist kill power

1. Jigglypuff Rest: frame 2 but invincible frame 1, kills at 60%.
2. Little Mac ground KO Punch: frame 9 but armored frame 4 or 8, kills at 24%.
3. Little Mac Rising Uppercut: frame 3 but invincible frame 1, kills at 114%.
4. ZSS Lateral Kick: frame 4, kills at 77%.
5. Doc Super Jump Punch: frame 3, kills at 122%.
6. ZSS Boost Kick: frame 4, kills at 94%.
7. Ganondorf Dark Fists: frame 15 but armored frame 5, kills at 80%.
8. Falco bair: frame 4, kills at 101%.
9. Zelda bair: frame 6, kills at 71%.
10. Charizard Fly: frame 9 but armored frame 4, kills at 112%.
11. Doc Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 88%.
12. Little Mac f-tilt: frame 4, kills at 114%.
13. Yoshi nair: frame 3, kills at 161%.
14. Luigi nair: frame 3, kills at 165%.
15. Pac-Man/Mii Brawler nair: frame 3, kills at 167%.
16. Zelda Farore's Wind: frame 7, kills at 71%.
17. Mii Brawler Piston Punch: frame 4, kills at 124%.
18. Mario Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 101%.
19. Megaman u-tilt: frame 6, kills at 86%.
20. WFT bair + deep breathing: frame 6, kills at 93%.
21. Luigi Super Jump Punch: frame 8, kills at 70%.
22. Shulk grab -> b-throw + extreme Smash: frame 7, kills at 80%.
23. Marth f-smash: frame ~11-12 (varies by contact point), kills at 56%.
24. Ness grab -> b-throw: frame 6, kills at 101%.
25. Villager Timber axe: frame 6, kills at 103%.
26. Charizard u-smash: frame 6, kills at 109%.
    
27. WFT bair: frame 6, kills at 110%.
28. Zelda d-smash: frame 5, kills at 134%.
29. Zelda fair: frame 9, kills at 74%.
30. Shulk (Advancing) Air Slash + extreme Smash: frame 10, kills at 68%.

If you kep going, you'd start to quickly see a lot of u-smashes and strong bairs, as well as known fast-and-strong moves like WFT f-tilt and Mii Brawler Helicopter Kick I think high-aura Lucario would have a bunch of attacks soon as well.

I want to just add that out of all the highlighted moves which kill below 80%, Zamus' Lateral Kick and Ganon's Dark Fists are the most safe in terms of a risk/reward situation.

People are talking about Dark Fists, which is good, but we should look into Lateral Kick more. The move is extremely powerful, fast, and safe. It could also be used for a vast variety of situations.

 

[PUK]

Depending of the situation Zelda up B is the most sahe, as you can warp away if you fail to hit, rather than warp up. It's impossible under lag or if you have a really bad reaction time though.

 

[David Viran]

I want to just add that out of all the highlighted moves which kill below 80%, Zamus' Lateral Kick and Ganon's Dark Fists are the most safe in terms of a risk/reward situation.

People are talking about Dark Fists, which is good, but we should look into Lateral Kick more. The move is extremely powerful, fast, and safe. It could also be used for a vast variety of situations.

After seeing that list I went and tested lateral kick. It kills at 50% pre hit from the ledge on mario but you'll SD if it's too close to the ledge. Too much rage makes characters start to get out of the last kick but then bair kills pretty early so I think this move is geat for early kills.

 

[Blobface]

I want to just add that out of all the highlighted moves which kill below 80%, Zamus' Lateral Kick and Ganon's Dark Fists are the most safe in terms of a risk/reward situation.

People are talking about Dark Fists, which is good, but we should look into Lateral Kick more. The move is extremely powerful, fast, and safe. It could also be used for a vast variety of situations.

Killing Up-b's in general merit more discussion. I feel like a lot of people glossed over them completely because they're generally worse recovery moves, but a lot of them kill at insane %'s.

Not that any of them will be better than Dark Fists of course.

 

[Trifroze]

The downside of moves like those is that they can't really be used as OoS options or in any predictable manner because if the opponent knows it's coming, they can be SDI'd out of with ease. I'm not sure about Lateral Kick, but Dark Fists and ZSS' default up b can be SDI'd at any percent by simply holding a direction. For anyone who doesn't know, towards ZSS on her up b and away from Ganon on Dark Fists.

 

[David Viran]

The downside of moves like those is that they can't really be used as OoS options or in any predictable manner because if the opponent knows it's coming, they can be SDI'd out of with ease. I'm not sure about Lateral Kick, but Dark Fists and ZSS' default up b can be SDI'd at any percent by simply holding a direction. For anyone who doesn't know, towards ZSS on her up b and away from Ganon on Dark Fists.

Not true for zss's up b if you just hold the direction your opponent goes you will catch it. It starts working at higher rage like 130%.

 

[Blobface]

The downside of moves like those is that they can't really be used as OoS options or in any predictable manner because if the opponent knows it's coming, they can be SDI'd out of with ease. I'm not sure about Lateral Kick, but Dark Fists and ZSS' default up b can be SDI'd at any percent by simply holding a direction. For anyone who doesn't know, towards ZSS on her up b and away from Ganon on Dark Fists.

Dark fists almost never whiffs unless Ganon has no rage and he's fighting a heavy character that falls fast. Captain falcon is one of the characters that it whiffs on in that situation.

 

[BBC7]

There's that one Fox custom Up B that can kill, I think it's called Twisting Fox or something. I think it's a pretty interesting Up B because the kill potential of that move is through the roof on a stage like Halberd. It can kill Jigglypuff at around 20% or something off the top, but the problem is that it is still a Fox Up B which isn't the most practical thing to land. Then again, I don't play Fox so maybe it's easy to land.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Dark fists almost never whiffs unless Ganon has no rage and he's fighting a heavy character that falls fast. Captain falcon is one of the characters that it whiffs on in that situation.

I couldn't get it to connect at all against Bowser. Like, ever.

 

[Blobface]

I couldn't get it to connect at all against Bowser. Like, ever.

Wario, Captain Falcon, Megaman, Bowser, and Dedede all whiff when hit with unraged Dark Fists. The first hit does launch farther with rage, so it's likely rage makes it hit everyone. I haven't thoroughly tested that though.

Edit: I'd also like to mention Dark Fists is not a good oos option (too slow, too little range). It acts more as a counter of sorts against safe aerial attacks, which Ganon usually has trouble with (Sheiks fair, Rosalina's everything, etc.).

It's why it's his best custom. It shuts down almost all the jank some characters can do against a Ganondorf.

 

[Superbat]

Any cool smash 4 streams going on? thx

 

[deepseadiva]

Any cool smash 4 streams going on?

If you check the homepage there's a column on the righthand with an active stream list.

Also: https://twitter.com/ssblivestreams

 

[Project Quarantine]

Any cool smash 4 streams going on?

My Minnesota tournament just ended

It was dominated by a Ganon, 2 Kirbys, 2 custom villagers and some sheiks. (Ganon won)

 

[deepseadiva]

My Minnesota tournament just ended

It was dominated by a Ganon, 2 Kirbys, 2 custom villagers and some sheiks. (Ganon won)

Custom Villager is so wack, even without the planking.

Glad she dies to reflectors though.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Custom Villager is so wack, even without the planking.

Glad she dies to reflectors though.

Kirby also completely shuts down the legde camping with meteor stone. And our ganon player has robot like reactions and punishes

 

[HeavyLobster]

Kirby also completely shuts down the legde camping with meteor stone. And our ganon player has robot like reactions and punishes

Must be a heck of a Ganon to go through multiple custom Villagers and Sheiks. I'd love to see some footage.

 

[Hippieslayer]

There is no way uthrow nerf affects his overall viabililty, because relying on a killing throw was stupid from the start, and if you think ROB MU are worse now it's sad. We used to be lazy, but if we work we can let it go.

Can you explain what you mean here please?

 

[deepseadiva]

Can you explain what you mean here please?

"Even if a character has options removed they can still succeed if they compensate through other means."

Like, the worst character has to work the hardest and the best character has to work the least. And if your character gets things removed that make your work harder then IMO that obviously makes rob much worse, but ok...........

 

[thehard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHK1JX2fZ4c

 

[Lavani]

In the case of ROB, nothing was lost that actually affects how the character plays, just that if he wants to get a kill off a grab he has to play his game for another 20~30% to do so. His projectile game is untouched, his other kill moves are untouched, and uthrow is still a solid kill throw even if it doesn't kill as early as it used to.

 

[Cenizas]

Can't R.O.B. just hoo-hah for the kill about as early as the late 1.0.4. u-throw?

 

[Blobface]

My Minnesota tournament just ended

It was dominated by a Ganon, 2 Kirbys, 2 custom villagers and some sheiks. (Ganon won)

I wonder if anyone actually thinks Ganon is bad now. No matter what you can say about him, he's been getting results. Run while you can, the Gerudo will soon rule all of smash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHK1JX2fZ4c

I wouldn't assume anything is an infinite/0-death combo unless it's used against players. I don't doubt Mii Brawler can get mileage out of the techniques employed here, but assuming he can just bust out an infinite out of nowhere is a stretch considering this was done in training.

 

[Unknownkid]

Must be a heck of a Ganon to go through multiple custom Villagers and Sheiks. I'd love to see some footage.

Yes, where is this stream/video?

Also, the Ganon Ditto Money Matches were the highlight for the Canada Tournament? Nairo and his EZMONEY!! Also, watching him rekt a commentator with Zelda was icing on the cake.

 

[Antonykun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHK1JX2fZ4c

YOU ARE NOT HELPING BRAWLER NOT LOOK OP DAPUFFSTER!!!!!11!

Seriously though I kinda wonder how useful this combo is given the need to be done off a footstool.

 

[TriTails]

I wonder if anyone actually thinks Ganon is bad now. No matter what you can say about him, he's been getting results. Run while you can, the Gerudo will soon rule all of smash

GFAQs people still do .

Ganon is certainly nowhere near bottom tier. Low? Maybe, but not bottom.

 

[Asdioh]

Are ROB's projectiles really that good though? I normally struggle against projectiles, but against ROB I have a tremendously easy time powershielding lasers and avoiding/picking up gyros.
Then pair me against a TL or Link and I have a miserable time.

 

[Blobface]

Also, the Ganon Ditto Money Matches were the highlight for the Canada Tournament? Nairo and his EZMONEY!! Also, watching him rekt a commentator with Zelda was icing on the cake.

I must see this.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I wonder if anyone actually thinks Ganon is bad now. No matter what you can say about him, he's been getting results. Run while you can, the Gerudo will soon rule all of smash

I wouldn't assume anything is an infinite/0-death combo unless it's used against players. I don't doubt Mii Brawler can get mileage out of the techniques employed here, but assuming he can just bust out an infinite out of nowhere is a stretch considering this was done in training.

YOU ARE NOT HELPING BRAWLER NOT LOOK OP DAPUFFSTER!!!!!11!

Seriously though I kinda wonder how useful this combo is given the need to be done off a footstool.

I'll post the description just incase none of you decided to read it.

"A semi-situational 0 to death combo with Mii Brawler. Only works on characters that aren't too floaty but also aren't fast fallers such as Mario, Luigi, Sonic, DK, Bowser, Ness, Pikachu, probably more. They can also sort of escape this if they can trick the mii brawler into where they're going to land after the footstool.

D-throw into f-air, fast fall the f-air so that only the first hit comes out, this semi-spikes them and gives you the frame advantage to grab again, do this two times and then footstool them from the 3rd d-throw, they can't tech a footstool so fast fall with a n-air to jab lock them, then f-tilt to continue the jab lock, do another short hop n-air as they're forced to do a get up animation (they can't roll or getup attack in this state) and then dash grab into d-throw once more ending with the Helicopter Kick. Congrats you just did a 63% 0 to death combo across the stage.

Also note that I could NOT get this to work with Tiny Mii Brawler."

 

[Antonykun]

I'll post the description just incase none of you decided to read it.

"A semi-situational 0 to death combo with Mii Brawler. Only works on characters that aren't too floaty but also aren't fast fallers such as Mario, Luigi, Sonic, DK, Bowser, Ness, Pikachu, probably more. They can also sort of escape this if they can trick the mii brawler into where they're going to land after the footstool.

D-throw into f-air, fast fall the f-air so that only the first hit comes out, this semi-spikes them and gives you the frame advantage to grab again, do this two times and then footstool them from the 3rd d-throw, they can't tech a footstool so fast fall with a n-air to jab lock them, then f-tilt to continue the jab lock, do another short hop n-air as they're forced to do a get up animation (they can't roll or getup attack in this state) and then dash grab into d-throw once more ending with the Helicopter Kick. Congrats you just did a 63% 0 to death combo across the stage.

Also note that I could NOT get this to work with Tiny Mii Brawler."

Oh no, I did read it i just wanted to make it clear that its very situational cuz i know there are others who don't read

 

[Jigglymaster]

Oh no, I did read it i just wanted to make it clear that its very situational cuz i know there are others who don't read

This combo is not easy at all lol

- does not work with Tiny Mii Brawler
- only works on a handful of characters that are subjected to both the f-air chain throw and footstool combo
- they can change their direction when they fall from the footstool making it harder for Brawler to follow up

Don't expect to see everybody abusing this combo, because its not going to happen on a daily basis, at all... but it does have a chance at happening in tournament if the stars align.

 

[Antonykun]

This combo is not easy at all lol

- does not work with Tiny Mii Brawler
- only works on a handful of characters that are subjected to both the f-air chain throw and footstool combo
- they can change their direction when they fall from the footstool making it harder for Brawler to follow up

Don't expect to see everybody abusing this combo, because its not going to happen on a daily basis, at all... but it does have a chance at happening in tournament if the stars align.

...and the moon goes green

Seriously though I can't believe I am so worried about people jumping the gun on a 0 to death combo and calling Brawler OP and shiz. Granted too many people were all like BAN CUSTOMS after watching pika's 0 to death meteor quick attack combo

 

[DanGR]

I know some people who frequent this thread were looking for examples of good Wario play, since he's rather rare. Reflex anyone?
http://www.twitch.tv/hsvasl

 

[Blobface]

Uh, I never thought this combo was broken. It's basically Ganondorf's Reverse Warlock Punch. Sure, it kills instantly, but how often will it actually be used?

 

[Project Quarantine]

I wonder if anyone actually thinks Ganon is bad now. No matter what you can say about him, he's been getting results. Run while you can, the Gerudo will soon rule all of smash

I wouldn't assume anything is an infinite/0-death combo unless it's used against players. I don't doubt Mii Brawler can get mileage out of the techniques employed here, but assuming he can just bust out an infinite out of nowhere is a stretch considering this was done in training.

I mean, ganon isn't going to rule any tier list, but when used to maximum potential, the character looks really clean and dangerous (like melee as opposed to brawl).

Also to note, he was barely utilizing customs. He ran 1121 (dark fists) and was only really benefitted in recovery armor because the kirby he played in GF made no fist punishable mistakes. Customs isnt the only thing making him viable

EDIT: I can post footage once it is released

 

[Antonykun]

I know some people who frequent this thread were looking for examples of good Wario play, since he's rather rare. Reflex anyone?
http://www.twitch.tv/hsvasl

but @TheReflexWonder posts here all the time

 

[Blobface]

I mean, ganon isn't going to rule any tier list, but when used to maximum potential, the character looks really clean and dangerous (like melee as opposed to brawl).

Also to note, he was barely utilizing customs. He ran 1121 (dark fists) and was only really benefitted in recovery armor because the kirby he played in GF made no fist punishable mistakes. Customs isnt the only thing making him viable

Ganon's benefits from customs are most noticeable in his bad matchups, and Kirby is one of his best in customs off. With that said, Ganon's whole "I can kill you in one combo" design makes him almost immune to unviability. No matter how bad a matchup is he can land one hit and flip it around.

Customs just make his worst matchups much less skewed (Sheik, Rosalina, etc.)

Also, as for Reflex, it's nice to see someone actually taking risks for a change. He only lost one match where he SD'd twice.

 

[Unknownkid]

I must see this.

http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/b/653327308?t=2h46m26s

Beforehand we had Ally vs Vinnie - Marth vs RoB Money Match. Holy vs Vinnie ROB dittos. It was a fun money match function! But those Ganons and utilts man! Ganon is definitely not low tier.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I mean, ganon isn't going to rule any tier list, but when used to maximum potential, the character looks really clean and dangerous (like melee as opposed to brawl).

Also to note, he was barely utilizing customs. He ran 1121 (dark fists) and was only really benefitted in recovery armor because the kirby he played in GF made no fist punishable mistakes. Customs isnt the only thing making him viable

EDIT: I can post footage once it is released

Even the recovery armor by itself is big. Also customs really do matter for Ganon's viability as a good Rosa is usually near impossible to beat without them, and a few other MUs are almost as nasty. He does have a lot of strengths outside of customs though.