Character Competitive Impressions

[Project Quarantine]

Even the recovery armor by itself is big. Also customs really do matter for Ganon's viability as a good Rosa is usually near impossible to beat without them, and a few other MUs are almost as nasty. He does have a lot of strengths outside of customs though.

When I said that he was barely utilized customs, I should have said that he didn't rely on them to succeed. This addressed those who think customs are the only thing that make him out of bottom <10

 

[Antonykun]

When I said that he was barely utilized customs, I should have said that he didn't rely on them to succeed. This addressed those who think customs are the only thing that make him out of bottom <10

I personally see his customs being what makes him a more frightening character (and he's already a walking trigger) if ganon is in bottom 10 it has to be with an asterisk saying "WARNING: DON"T MESS UP EVER"

 

[thehard]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/b/653327308?t=2h46m26s

Beforehand we had Ally vs Vinnie - Marth vs RoB Money Match. Holy vs Vinnie ROB dittos. It was a fun money match function! But those Ganons and utilts man! Ganon is definitely not low tier.

Wow, Vinnie losing the Shiek ditto surprised me. Plus that Ganon taking Ally to a last stock last hit situation on game 3... scary character.

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't think the R.O.B. nerf was really about him so much as kill throws in general getting tweaked.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Just watched Come On and Ban 16, from NorCal, gotta say, Diddy is still really good, as is Sheik and same with ROB. Rosalina though is really good Im realizing, like, way too good.

What I mean is not just damage, knockback, ect. I mean her whole design. People talk about killing Luma as a strat but what then? Her dodges and rolls are so good she can run out the 12 seconds with nearly 0 problems. She can run with absolutely zero consequence. Its kinda bull.

Shaya can talk about all the abusive issues in sm4sh but Im starting to think RosaLuma may be the worst. Seriously, after the last patch I think she could be number 1, especially since theres still so much untapped potential.

Another takeaway, all commentators should drink during tourneys. Its so hilarious to listen to them slip into oblivion!

I don't think the R.O.B. nerf was really about him so much as kill throws in general getting tweaked.

Again, kill throws only belong to psychics!

 

[Kofu]

Are ROB's projectiles really that good though? I normally struggle against projectiles, but against ROB I have a tremendously easy time powershielding lasers and avoiding/picking up gyros.
Then pair me against a TL or Link and I have a miserable time.

I think ROB is a character that requires some adjusting to fighting. His projectiles are fairly controllable and the gyro is probably the best spawnable, throwable item in the game because it doesn't disappear after hit (at least not like others do). He also has pretty good frame data.

If you spend enough time fighting ROB he becomes easier to manage because he can be very linear.

 

[TheZyzyva]

So, an exercise Id be interested to see everyone engage in; who has surprised you the most thus far in Smash4?

Ill go on record as doubting ROB from day 1. Same with GDubs. Yet they have some pretty good results.

By the same token Im still waiting for some really impressive ZeroSuit placings. Most people agree shes strong but wheres the results?

 

[David Viran]

So, an exercise Id be interested to see everyone engage in; who has surprised you the most thus far in Smash4?

Ill go on record as doubting ROB from day 1. Same with GDubs. Yet they have some pretty good results.

By the same token Im still waiting for some really impressive ZeroSuit placings. Most people agree shes strong but wheres the results?

Nairo does very well with zss and choco is ranked number 2 in Japan. Leon is good too just wish I could see more of him.

 

[Project Quarantine]

So, an exercise Id be interested to see everyone engage in; who has surprised you the most thus far in Smash4?

Ill go on record as doubting ROB from day 1. Same with GDubs. Yet they have some pretty good results.

By the same token Im still waiting for some really impressive ZeroSuit placings. Most people agree shes strong but wheres the results?

Nairo
VaBengal
NickRiddle
Choco (Japan)
To name a few players off the top of my head

 

[thehard]

ZeRo wins Day 1 and Day 2 of Chokaigi (minus that 1 game 4v4), further proof that even in items-on tournaments the better players come out on top.

 

[Luigi player]

ZeRo wins Day 1 and Day 2 of Chokaigi (minus that 1 game 4v4), further proof that even in items-on tournaments the better players come out on top.

Proof? They got lucky Fsann messed up his upB game 3. Everything was really random with these items, but of course the better players have a better chance at winning.
I'm a little sad MJG didn't know you can't shield Gooey Bombs explosion or Marios Final Smash...

 

[Cool]

ZeRo wins Day 1 and Day 2 of Chokaigi (minus that 1 game 4v4), further proof that even in items-on tournaments the better players come out on top.

I guess you could say he "casually" won.

 

[Shaya]

Items probably do a better job of balancing the cast then customs and patches do~

But it is still Smash, and what makes items distasteful is the off-chance "abuse" of something. This is honestly much less of a factor with teams in mind though.
I have had a stance for a while that doubles can afford more stages due to the "issues" being more readily overcome by team work and dynamic strategy that exists within it. Items honestly are much of the same thing.

Most top players are also disgustingly good at just about all "smash modes" though. Late night post or pre-tournament "can't sleep" smash is definitely one of those highlights you get from traveling There's usually a lot of regional contention about who's the best at items/free for alls, haha. But these are decided over like, dozens of matches though, consistency still reigns true over the longer term.

As we push more towards e-sports, we have to thank Sakurai for this game really having so much we can do with it while still being interesting and fun for viewers and players alike.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Ok I know about Nairo, but he is just plain good, with a lot a characters. The other ZSS names I dont recognize.

My only point was to see who surprised people not to say ZSS isnt good.

 

[Superbat]

Speaking of Sakurai. https://twitter.com/ZeRoSSB/status/592202367203840000 I know this is probably off topic but this is so much yes. DADDY SAKURAI greatest reward a smasher could ever get, Hopefully zero and m2k can shout him some tips for balance and ask him what happened with metaknight with brawl looool
@ thehard LOOOL

 

[thehard]

 

[Pyr]

I'm happy for M2K. Seems like this is what he needed after Sandstorm left him so upset.

 

[Asdioh]

So, an exercise Id be interested to see everyone engage in; who has surprised you the most thus far in Smash4?

Ill go on record as doubting ROB from day 1. Same with GDubs. Yet they have some pretty good results.

By the same token Im still waiting for some really impressive ZeroSuit placings. Most people agree shes strong but wheres the results?

My RI locals have been dominated by Marss' ZSS for months now. He's at the top of both the nintendodojo and anthers ladder as well. He uses default zss with customs on, I get the impression that most of her customs are sidegrades?

 

[Shaya]

Side-grades?

Lol. Even that's generous terming. One laser custom is helpful in some match ups. Default side-b is actually alright and the rest not so much. All the other up-bs are super trash. Down-Bs are kinda side-grades tier, but I think you get the most "options" out of her default (they're laggier and have less control of motion)

 

[PUK]

Nairo does very well with zss and choco is ranked number 2 in Japan. Leon is good too just wish I could see more of him.

Come in France i see him every week

 

[Trifroze]

Dark fists almost never whiffs unless Ganon has no rage and he's fighting a heavy character that falls fast. Captain falcon is one of the characters that it whiffs on in that situation.

Not true for zss's up b if you just hold the direction your opponent goes you will catch it. It starts working at higher rage like 130%.

Actually didn't know either of these, thanks for correcting. Left my testing halfway through it seems.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

but @ TheReflexWonder posts here all the time

To be fair, concept videos and little notes often don't compare to actual match footage of it. I got Fatality's Falcon's recovery with the "Bike under the lip" thing at 30% for a strong gimp, hahah.

 

[David Viran]

Side-grades?

Lol. Even that's generous terming. One laser custom is helpful in some match ups. Default side-b is actually alright and the rest not so much. All the other up-bs are super trash. Down-Bs are kinda side-grades tier, but I think you get the most "options" out of her default (they're laggier and have less control of motion)

Believe in Lateral Kick. It's not that bad.

 

[Hippieslayer]

"Even if a character has options removed they can still succeed if they compensate through other means."

Like, the worst character has to work the hardest and the best character has to work the least. And if your character gets things removed that make your work harder then IMO that obviously makes rob much worse, but ok...........

So basically its just tiers dun exist in principle. Fail lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I knew that Little Mac had partial invincibility on his legs during his grounded Forward-B (potentially for a while, before you decide to swing), but after experimenting in Training Mode, I've found that it actually has full body invincibility at the very beginning, and then it goes into the leg invincibility. Frames 1-4 are completely invulnerable.

As a "panic button," this has good synergy with Up-B, which is completely invulnerable on Frames 1-3 (and hits on Frame 3), and a cross-up Forward-B is actually pretty safe, since it pushes shielding opponents away from where you're moving. Even when it's punishable, it's likely not as punishable as a missed Up-B. Also of note: D-Tilt is -7 on shield (assuming they drop their shield instead of jumping out of it), and everyone's Dash Grab is Frame 8 or worse (and almost all of them only last for two frames), AND you cannot put up a shield during your initial dash, so if someone dashes forward to try and punish D-Tilt, this can serve as a counter to immediate attempts at punishing. Frame 1 Jab and Frame 2 spotdodge (for the many Frame 9 Dash Grabs) are generally the go-to against it, but those can be baited out and punished; this creates more of a mix-up with where Mac ends up post-move.

Relevant characters that absolutely cannot punish it without a powershield are Mega Man (well, he can jump-cancel throw a Metal Blade already in his hand for some damage) and Villager, and there are a number of characters who can only punish with a frame-perfect (or very close; you cannot buffer a roll out of shield hitlag, as an aside) roll backward into the appropriate move (usually a Dash Attack or Dash Grab), such as Mario, Luigi, Lucario, Ness, Pac-Man (without a Key, of course), and Wario; this seems rather hard to do in a vacuum, let alone on reaction in an actual match.

 

[Teshie U]

So Trela placed 2nd/140 yesterday with all Mewtwo.

Perhaps a little viable?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So Trela placed 2nd/140 yesterday with all Mewtwo.

Perhaps a little viable?

Link to tournament results or footage?

 

[Unknownkid]

So Trela placed 2nd/140 yesterday with all Mewtwo.

Perhaps a little viable?

Trela is a low tier god. Yes, I know... Mewtwo is not low tier. Just saying...

 

[Teshie U]

Not posted yet, Houston majors don't currently get streamed.

The results should be up soon. Its Texas Gaming Championship 2 (TGC), its the same series Megafox won about 2 months ago.

@ Unknownkid Previously he only really went all "low tier" for less stacked locals events (winning with doctor mario and mii swordsman) or to cheese people that didn't react properly to the matchup (charizard).

Results were

1.Falcon(GrimTurtle)
2.Mewtwo (trela)
3. Sheik/Diddy (denti)
4.Shulk(GneS)
5.Toon Link
5.Falcon

 

[HeroMystic]

So Trela placed 2nd/140 yesterday with all Mewtwo.

Perhaps a little viable?

Too early to tell, but I'm inclined to say he is.

I can tell you for sure Trela is the best Mewtwo, and no one has had the necessary MU experience against of a Mewtwo of his caliber. We'll have to see how it works out later down the line when people learn the MU.

 

[PUK]

Not posted yet, Houston majors don't currently get streamed.

The results should be up soon. Its Texas Gaming Championship 2 (TGC), its the same series Megafox won about 2 months ago.

@ Unknownkid Previously he only really went all "low tier" for less stacked locals events (winning with doctor mario and mii swordsman) or to cheese people that didn't react properly to the matchup (charizard).

Results were

1.Falcon(GrimTurtle)
2.Mewtwo (trela)
3. Sheik/Diddy (denti)
4.Shulk(GneS)
5.Toon Link
5.Falcon

That's quite unusual

 

[HeroMystic]

Texas has always been unusual.

Unless it's Dallas.

 

[Teshie U]

Matchup experience goes both ways. Trela has been using the character for 10 days and was winning matchups he had literally never played before.

Btw, if you want to catch some other TX action there is a San Antonio tournament happening tonight with Megafox in attendance. twitch.tv/210smash at 8pm Eastern I believe. Its a $1200 pot and Megafox will likely be in top form.

 

[deepseadiva]

I knew that Little Mac had partial invincibility on his legs during his grounded Forward-B (potentially for a while, before you decide to swing), but after experimenting in Training Mode, I've found that it actually has full body invincibility at the very beginning, and then it goes into the leg invincibility. Frames 1-4 are completely invulnerable.

Why are we finding this out so late. Like, looking back, this has been implemented by a lot of Macs already, maybe even unknowingly. But this hasn't been written down anywhere. Mac boards need to get their **** together.

 

[HeroMystic]

Matchup experience goes both ways. Trela has been using the character for 10 days and was winning matchups he had literally never played before.

This isn't a fair comparison. Even though Trela's Mewtwo is 10 days old, Mewtwo himself is literally 10 days old. Every other character in the game is not. No one in the tournament realized Mewtwo can Shadowball off-stage to bait an air dodge and then frame trap a F-air edgeguard kill. Mewtwo's D-Smash is also super safe to do vs ledge get-ups and covers every option except rolling and stalling. Gaining prior knowledge before this was really, really difficult.

If Mewtwo can continue bringing in results after becoming saturated into the competitive scene, then I would say he's proved his worth. Right now this is just a good impression.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Why are we finding this out so late. Like, looking back, this has been implemented by a lot of Macs already, maybe even unknowingly. But this hasn't been written down anywhere. Mac boards need to get their **** together.

Quite literally almost every single boards need to get their **** together.
Either it's people being too lazy to test things out, nobody knows how to test stuff out, or people know how too but they don't have the pleasure of owning two of the same system/game to do testing with one or three others to get stuff done faster and more accurately (me)

 

[Luco]

Spoiler

Oi I'll have you know we fully tested Bthrow kill %s on different parts of FD on every character AND included the effects of rage on examples of said percentages.

Character boards with defining combo moves, or kill moves should get two or three members to test certain aspects of those moves. That way, the most essential parts of a character are mapped and it advances their meta game heavily.

 

[busken]

Does anybody know how to properly DI Diddy Kong's down throw to avoid the potential follow-ups? Some people say Up and Away and some Down and Back. Picture Representation can help a lot too.

 

[ZarroTsu]

The direction in which you move further away from Diddy after the throw, instead of above him. It's confusing in explanation because Diddy slams you between his legs.

The best I can give you is "Up and behind Diddy"

 

[PUK]

it depends. At low percent DI up and in the direction diddy's facing. It allows you to avoid a long string. At higher oercent up and away from the direction diddy's facing