Character Competitive Impressions

[Superbat]

These SD's with 6xw are tragic.

 

[Ffamran]

These SD's with 6xw are tragic.

Unrelated, but is there a reason why Homing Attack sent him away from the ledge? Is it because of the Duck Hunt stage or something else? It was just weird seeing him shoot away from the ledge and I think 6wX uses Homing Attack to get closer to the ledge or onto the ledge.

 

[Superbat]

When the opponent is too far away from sonic and is not in its range, he will always go down. inputting a spot dodge or air dodge will also send sonic too his doom. shield still works though.

 

[Firefoxx]

Unrelated, but is there a reason why Homing Attack sent him away from the ledge? Is it because of the Duck Hunt stage or something else? It was just weird seeing him shoot away from the ledge and I think 6wX uses Homing Attack to get closer to the ledge or onto the ledge.

He may have been trying to home in on the ducks if Will wasn't close enough? (Sonic can't do that anymore so idk)

 

[Teshie U]

You gotta admit that he has a lot of options in choosing how to recover.

He has that Confusion jump useful for stalling to avoid an edgeguard from one who can't go too far, a teleport
whose horizontal momentum lets him use it from rather far away to grab the edge, he can do a Ness-style recovery
by attacking ledge-standing opponents during his second jump (and unlike Ness, he can cancel his second jump to grab
the ledge with teleport nigh instantaneously), and of course there's Shadow Ball recoil... the only chink in his recovery
is that it's hard for him to recover vertically without his second jump.

So it's not like Villager who can just keep trying no matter how much he's hit, but it's certainly up there in capable hands.

Oh trust me, I'd definitely say its a fully capable recovery with good mixup potential, even if its a bit awkward at some angles. But there are some recoveries in this games that are beyond capable and become nearly infallible without missed inputs involved.

There are also a good few that I would say are similarly safe, but more forgiving when read. Mewtwo's weight and the fact that he can only use confusion hopping and his very important double jump once, means getting sniped out of a crucial part of his recovery can be a death sentence.

Good recovery, but not close to best.

6WX should have used the custom homing attacks. None of them are crucial moves, but much like Yoshi's Egg Roll, you want the one that screws you over the least when you accidentally use it. I'm 99% certain the homing attacks weren't intentional, but he did some tragic things that I had no idea what he was thinking so i could be wrong.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ ParanoidDrone He's keeping some major secrets. https://twitter.com/DabuzSensei/status/588934649520390145 Evo 2015 is looking really disgusting right now

He just said in winner's interview that the tech was the rapid jab Luma ledge trap thing. Which I have to admit was hilarious to see.

 

[Megamang]

Spinning luma on the ledge preventing grabs is pretty damn silly. Anyone know how he set that up?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Spinning luma on the ledge preventing grabs is pretty damn silly. Anyone know how he set that up?

Pretty simple if I understand it correctly. Send Luma offstage and it'll turn around and try to jump back. Simply start doing the rapid jab when it just gets to the ledge. The spacing to ensure Luma jumps the right way and timing to get it in the right spot may require a bit of practice but the principle seems clear.

 

[Smog Frog]

we'll come up with counterplay so he doesnt destroy evo. we want zero to win so he'll leave for a year(he said he'd do this if he wins evo) so we WILL come up with counterplay to make future post evo tournaments interesting. these are just quick thoughts:
/ multiple jumps so its useless(someone really needs to pick up and do well at evo)

float over

dank fists armor(the uppercut has mad disjoint)

hydro pump windbox to push rosa away(amsa please do good)

egg tossing

spaced up b to get luma off

annnndd my thoughts concluded. your thoughts?

 

[Megamang]

we'll come up with counterplay so he doesnt destroy evo. we want zero to win so he'll leave for a year(he said he'd do this if he wins evo) so we WILL come up with counterplay to make future post evo tournaments interesting. these are just quick thoughts:
/ multiple jumps so its useless(someone really needs to pick up and do well at evo)

float over

dank fists armor(the uppercut has mad disjoint)

hydro pump windbox to push rosa away(amsa please do good)

egg tossing

spaced up b to get luma off

annnndd my thoughts concluded. your thoughts?

I think that those characters will have to also beat dabuz on stage once they get back, and that is pretty unlikely now.

 

[Smog Frog]

the jab has endlag, which can allow to fly right over and kick dabuz right in the back of the noggin. the disjoint on 's dank fists(all uppercuts really) is hilarious. i wouldnt be surprised if ganon managed to knock luma AND rosa out with one fell swoop.

 

[thehard]

We should all have a pretty solid collective understanding of the Rosalina and DK matchup by now, customs on and off...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think that those characters will have to also beat dabuz on stage once they get back, and that is pretty unlikely now.

Kirby can duck under Shooting Star Bit unless Rosalina ducks first to get Luma closer to the ground. Jigglypuff can probably do the same thing but I'm not certain. For what all that's worth.

 

[Nu~]

we'll come up with counterplay so he doesnt destroy evo. we want zero to win so he'll leave for a year(he said he'd do this if he wins evo) so we WILL come up with counterplay to make future post evo tournaments interesting. these are just quick thoughts:
/ multiple jumps so its useless(someone really needs to pick up and do well at evo)

float over

dank fists armor(the uppercut has mad disjoint)

hydro pump windbox to push rosa away(amsa please do good)

egg tossing

spaced up b to get luma off

annnndd my thoughts concluded. your thoughts?

Super Armor Side B and Up B clashes

 

[Mr. Johan]

can throw an Arcfire or El/Arcthunder at Luma to knock it off the ledge but he'd have to be frame perfect to get back to the stage with Elwind after the cooldown unless he runs Soaring Elwind why. That or a simple disjointed Fair

Either way, Bill Trinnen must be laughing in his sleep right now.

 

[Quickhero]

Snip.

Marth has Dashing Assault to get through, he also has Crescent Slash that will tip Luma and the speed of CS makes it no problem to get in. Marth also has tippers and all he needs is like 2-3 good f-airs and with CS and/or DA Luma will be gone. :3 I'm pretty sure Dolphin Slash will manage fine against Luma too because you just have to shoot below and let the invincibility on the beginning of Dolphin Slash work wonders.

 

[Lavani]

Passive recoveries are destroyed by this setup, but Luma is positioned offstage and sending it into tumble is a guaranteed Luma kill. Furthermore, due to ledgesnap mechanics odds are Luma's hitting you out of your ledgesnap, which means if Rosa's jab can't kill you you'll have all your jumps refreshed - which lets characters such as recover high. It's also possible to snap to the ledge through Luma safely with the right angle, then ledge roll to safety.

Mainly this dumps on characters recovering low that either lack hitboxes on their recovery or lack the means to swat Luma before needing to grab the ledge, and really ruins the day of characters with recoveries too poor to attempt to recover high ( in customs off come to mind)

 

[Blobface]

snap to the ledge through Luma safely

Ganon's ledge grab range prevails again!

 

[Lavani]

Shifting gears to , I noticed something interesting about his jab1 earlier today: it doesn't cancel when it clanks. Considering how little endlag Mewtwo's jab1 has and the fact that post-clank reeling is based on the damage of the opposing hit, this allows Mewtwo to clank much stronger moves with his jab and still come out with a frame advantage.

 

[Cool]

Rosalina looking good.

 

[Ffamran]

Shifting gears to , I noticed something interesting about his jab1 earlier today: it doesn't cancel when it clanks. Considering how little endlag Mewtwo's jab1 has and the fact that post-clank reeling is based on the damage of the opposing hit, this allows Mewtwo to clank much stronger moves with his jab and still come out with a frame advantage.

Cool, let's call it the Mewtwo Jab in honor of Jecht's Jecht Block... There isn't a decent gif showing it, but there is a video that's more like showing how Confusion works if it was in Dissidia. Point is, Jecht has a move where he just puts his hand in front of him, slaps whatever move away from him, and continues on his onslaught of manly terror.

So, is Mewtwo's Jab basically a parry or an actual block? I wonder how people will use this in Mewtwo's game plan. Does Jab do this as well with Mario and Luigi's Fireballs and Dr. Mario's Pills?

 

[Megamang]

Seems like a bug to me that he doesn't reel like everyone else from clanks. This could be interesting, but regardless of how it effects the character's playstyle and metagame, it appears nintendo is intent on removing what they consider bugs or strategies that don't fit the playstyle they intend for the character.

Of course, to me it makes a lot of sense for mewtwo to have a psychic parry that leaves his opponent vulnerable! Perhaps it would stay with a simple animation change.

 

[Project Quarantine]

we'll come up with counterplay so he doesnt destroy evo. we want zero to win so he'll leave for a year(he said he'd do this if he wins evo) so we WILL come up with counterplay to make future post evo tournaments interesting. these are just quick thoughts:
/ multiple jumps so its useless(someone really needs to pick up and do well at evo)

float over

dank fists armor(the uppercut has mad disjoint)

hydro pump windbox to push rosa away(amsa please do good)

egg tossing

spaced up b to get luma off

annnndd my thoughts concluded. your thoughts?

My thoughts are that Im a bowser jr + captain falcon main. Time to start playing my pocket ness vs Rosaluma!

Btw I think ness can blast luma with his recovery hits while luma jabs.

 

[Lavani]

Seems like a bug to me that he doesn't reel like everyone else from clanks. This could be interesting, but regardless of how it effects the character's playstyle and metagame, it appears nintendo is intent on removing what they consider bugs or strategies that don't fit the playstyle they intend for the character.

Of course, to me it makes a lot of sense for mewtwo to have a psychic parry that leaves his opponent vulnerable! Perhaps it would stay with a simple animation change.

Other moves that continue on clank exist, Mac's ftilt and Palutena's tilts come to mind. I'm not sure if any other jabs have this property though, and Mewtwo had a terrific jab to begin with.

Does Jab do this as well with Mario and Luigi's Fireballs and Dr. Mario's Pills?

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. His jab does 4% so it can clank anything up to 13%. Anyone can jab fireballs if they don't want to shield them for whatever reason, Mewtwo's not getting anything notable out of it compared to other characters.

 

[|RK|]

Seems like a bug to me that he doesn't reel like everyone else from clanks. This could be interesting, but regardless of how it effects the character's playstyle and metagame, it appears nintendo is intent on removing what they consider bugs or strategies that don't fit the playstyle they intend for the character.

Of course, to me it makes a lot of sense for mewtwo to have a psychic parry that leaves his opponent vulnerable! Perhaps it would stay with a simple animation change.

It doesn't seem like a bug at all. Just a property of the move.

 

[Blobface]

Disjointed hit boxes don't cause reeling if they clank IIRC.

 

[Megamang]

Other moves that continue on clank exist, Mac's ftilt and Palutena's tilts come to mind. I'm not sure if any other jabs have this property though, and Mewtwo had a terrific jab to begin with.


I'm not really sure what you're getting at. His jab does 4% so it can clank anything up to 13%. Anyone can jab fireballs if they don't want to shield them for whatever reason, Mewtwo's not getting anything notable out of it compared to other characters.

It doesn't seem like a bug at all. Just a property of the move.

My mistake, I was not aware that other moves had this property. In that case, great discovery!

 

[Ffamran]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. His jab does 4% so it can clank anything up to 13%. Anyone can jab fireballs if they don't want to shield them for whatever reason, Mewtwo's not getting anything notable out of it compared to other characters.

People keep saying that the clanking animation for Fireballs and maybe Pills are long, so if Mewtwo could clank quickly and follow up, it might not be a problem, but then again, commentators say things on the fly...

 

[Radical Larry]

At 0% any opponent can be killed at the very edge of the stage, with a Rage-imbued Reverse Warlock Punch. It's not the case of bad DI, it's the case of Rage giving Ganondorf extra knockback. So if you're going against a Rage Ganondorf, it's best not to go near the edge of the stage, because one thing may lead to another and you'll be a goner; that also goes for opponents who send Ganondorf straight up too; if he's not KO'd, he can pull the attack out and wham you with it, or break your shield.

My advice; don't fall for it. You probably will fall for it, but just try not to.
(And I'm not kidding about all this either, go test it yourself; Ganondorf can KO a 0% opponent with a rage imbued Reverse Warlock Punch.)

 

[Megamang]

At a mid-high level, no one should be getting hit with that. And if you have significant rage, you are opening yourself up for punishment at high damage right next to the ledge... it just doesn't seem viable. I understand the ganon phenomenon of taking into account mistakes because he punishes them harder than anyone else, but hitting a reverse warlock punch on a competent enemy?

 

[Teshie U]

Honestly, warlock punch is just there so that if he breaks your shield, he can kill you no matter what.

Warlock Punch just might hit someone using the armor if they did something extremely predictable and laggy, but the reverse is just for the power when someone is truly helpless.

He does have good shield pressure so its nice. On the rare occasion you get a shield break, its nice to have a move like that.

I've gotten shield breaks in serious matches with only a handful of characters, but when you have a chance to actually whip out a fully charged Megaman Dsmash to kill someone at 45%, or warlock punch someone at 19%, it feels so satisfying.

 

[|RK|]

I'm guessing that aerial Reverse Warlock Punch is for the extra style points? How does that even land (I can only do it with Kirby, tbh)?

 

[Pyr]

I'm guessing that aerial Reverse Warlock Punch is for the extra style points? How does that even land (I can only do it with Kirby, tbh)?

Kinda. An aerial warlock punch, both versions, has more knockback and damage if it lands while Ganon is still in the air IIRC. Technically it can serve a non-style purpose.

See:

1. Warlock Punch (ground reversed)
2. Frame 70-71: 37% 30b/100g (KO@ 17%) 361° Darkness
3. Max Damage: 37%

1. Warlock Punch (aerial reversed)
2. Frame 70-71: 40% 40b/100g (KO@ 3%) 30° Darkness
3. Max Damage: 40%

 

[Megamang]

I'm guessing that aerial Reverse Warlock Punch is for the extra style points? How does that even land (I can only do it with Kirby, tbh)?

Kinda. An aerial warlock punch, both versions, has more knockback and damage if it lands while Ganon is still in the air IIRC. Technically it can serve a non-style purpose.

See:

1. Warlock Punch (ground reversed)
2. Frame 70-71: 37% 30b/100g (KO@ 17%) 361° Darkness
3. Max Damage: 37%

1. Warlock Punch (aerial reversed)
2. Frame 70-71: 40% 40b/100g (KO@ 3%) 30° Darkness
3. Max Damage: 40%

I believe the reverse has more knockback than the regular punch, at the price of super armor.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A 30-degree angle is also noticeably better than the Sakurai angle (which sends at something like a 40-degree angle when there's significant knockback).

 

[Pyr]

I believe the reverse has more knockback than the regular punch, at the price of super armor.

It does. But both the aerial reverse and non-reverse have more damage and bkb then the grounded versions. Technically speaking, an aerial Ganon Punch non-reversed does a little bit more then the reverse grounded version. It's all trivia, though, because an aerial Ganon punch will take a reading of the Smash God's entire library of plays to land without a shield break.

 

[Megamang]

It does. But both the aerial reverse and non-reverse have more damage and bkb then the grounded versions. Technically speaking, an aerial Ganon Punch non-reversed does a little bit more then the reverse grounded version. It's all trivia, though, because an aerial Ganon punch will take a reading of the Smash God's entire library of plays to land without a shield break.

Is an "aerial" GP when he starts the punch in the air, or when it finishes in the air? I could see how the latter is impossible, but the former seems... just as reasonable as a grounded one? Unless the aerial causes you to lose super armor?

 

[Yonder]

I really do want to learn Mii Brawler, a really good character asides the pitiful vertical recovery. Shame Miis are banned online FG...big flaw. [To think I hated Miis before. Now I just hate DP ]

 

[Pyr]

Is an "aerial" GP when he starts the punch in the air, or when it finishes in the air? I could see how the latter is impossible, but the former seems... just as reasonable as a grounded one? Unless the aerial causes you to lose super armor?

Testing brb. Doing it in the air voids the armor though, that I know for sure.

Edit: You must finish the punch (wind up stops and the punch itself begins to be delivered) BEFORE you hit the ground for it to count. Short video inc.

Edit2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VUwisFPR0

 

[|RK|]

Is an "aerial" GP when he starts the punch in the air, or when it finishes in the air? I could see how the latter is impossible, but the former seems... just as reasonable as a grounded one? Unless the aerial causes you to lose super armor?

Both. It needs to be started and finished in the air. The order of power is (IIRC) WP < RWP < Aerial WP < Aerial RWP.

The aerial Reverse Warlock Punch is stupid strong, but I can barely use it with Kirby, and all of his jumps. Never been able to do it with Ganondorf, save for offstage, which is suicide. IIRC, the game talks about the need for a platform, but I doubt you could do it save for, say, after a trade that leaves you in the air and the opponent in a bad recovery position.

EDIT: Does 40% damage. And a Ganon at 0% and no dropkick can almost (but can't) recover if hit from the center of FD (testing as Kirby). If Kirby is also at 0%. Plus, y'know, no freshness bonus. Since training mode.