Character Competitive Impressions

[TriTails]

I can only see Warlock Punch being useful when you break opponent's shield with an U-tilt or fully charged F-smash for some reason. If not, well, nothing to see there. And also, Home Run Contest.

At least Falcon Punch can be used as a surprise attack when executed in the air, and can even EDGE. GUARD. when pulled off properly. You heard me right.

 

[Kofu]

Disjointed hit boxes don't cause reeling if they clank IIRC.

Haha, I wish. So do any sword character users.

Villager's Garden attack can clank. It's an intrinsic property of a move if it's there. It's not common, though. In addition to what Lavani mentioned, Jigglypuff's dash attack doesn't clank, and considering how meaty of an attack it is it's pretty impressive.

 

[PUK]

I saw too much warlock punch landed to be agree. If the opponent whiff a laggy attack, or panic, or try to punish but underestimate the timing it works. I personnally think it has a side property which mesmerize.
But overall it only works on casual who have tendancy to react unproperly.

How is rated pac man currently. I saw a very good pac man in tourney, i think he placed 3rd or 4th

 

[deepseadiva]

How is rated pac man currently. I saw a very good pac man in tourney, i think he placed 3rd or 4th

Good, like everyone else.

I don't think there's a "bad" character in this game anymore, after the patch.

 

[Megamang]

I saw too much warlock punch landed to be agree. If the opponent whiff a laggy attack, or panic, or try to punish but underestimate the timing it works. I personnally think it has a side property which mesmerize.
But overall it only works on casual who have tendancy to react unproperly.

How is rated pac man currently. I saw a very good pac man in tourney, i think he placed 3rd or 4th

Poke around the MU thread in the Pac Man boards, they are confident as **** in their character's high level MU, save a few.

If the boards are to believed, he has an advantage on Captain Falcon and Diddy, and goes even with shiek. Assuming these are true, that is really a great spread for tournaments.

 

[PUK]

Because the pac man i'm talking about slaughtered the 2nd best french player on a bo3. It was like the Diddy could do nothing because no raw Uaiir to BS kill and fsmash looks unreliable in this MU.

 

[Megamang]

Because the pac man i'm talking about slaughtered the 2nd best french player on a bo3. It was like the Diddy could do nothing because no raw Uaiir to BS kill and fsmash looks unreliable in this MU.

Was it customs on or off? and are we lucky enough to perhaps get a video for analysis?

Ive never even seen a pac man player irl.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Poke around the MU thread in the Pac Man boards, they are confident as **** in their character's high level MU, save a few.

If the boards are to believed, he has an advantage on Captain Falcon and Diddy, and goes even with shiek. Assuming these are true, that is really a great spread for tournaments.

These aren't true at all.

Character boards are pretty stoopid ... they've always been. Especially the Marth boards.

 

[PUK]

Was it customs on or off? and are we lucky enough to perhaps get a video for analysis?

Ive never even seen a pac man player irl.

Custom off, no video unfortunately.

 

[Nu~]

These aren't true at all.

Character boards are pretty stoopid ... they've always been. Especially the Marth boards.

Let's see your explanation

 

[Radical Larry]

Reverse Warlock Punch is a competent kind of, extremely hard read tactic in two situations:

1) Using it after jumping back to the stage from the ledge and using the second jump. Ganondorf has enough height to not only use it, but also get some distance once he reverses it. The distance would be either good or bad depending on situation, but is good for trying to land the One-Hit KO attack.

2) Using it in the air after being hit is also a good tactic, because not only are you charging up the attack, but remember, reversing the punch allows you to move freely, so if you want to avoid any oncoming U-Air, reversing is the way to go, and if the opponent uses an attack with some endlag by mistake, it's a punish.

Yes, it's a silly kind of thing to go by, but if it works, it works. The two tactics are meant to be for heavy, heavy punishes from a risky and hard read; if it's landed, it's potentially a Zero-To-Death attack.

 

[thehard]

Ever since Diddy got nerfed, I'm thinking Jiggs isn't so bad any more. Early up-air kills were the number one thing holding her back in my opinion.

 

[Smog Frog]

was never bad in the first place, its that she has literally no representation from high-level players so we just say she's "bad" aka we dont know.

 

[Megamang]

Reverse Warlock Punch is a competent kind of, extremely hard read tactic in two situations:

1) Using it after jumping back to the stage from the ledge and using the second jump. Ganondorf has enough height to not only use it, but also get some distance once he reverses it. The distance would be either good or bad depending on situation, but is good for trying to land the One-Hit KO attack.

2) Using it in the air after being hit is also a good tactic, because not only are you charging up the attack, but remember, reversing the punch allows you to move freely, so if you want to avoid any oncoming U-Air, reversing is the way to go, and if the opponent uses an attack with some endlag by mistake, it's a punish.

Yes, it's a silly kind of thing to go by, but if it works, it works. The two tactics are meant to be for heavy, heavy punishes from a risky and hard read; if it's landed, it's potentially a Zero-To-Death attack.

If it works it works, but if it works your opponent **** the bed and really you should be able to beat them anyways if you can read them that hard. It isn't a good tactic, because an average player will just keep you in the air racking damage each time you try. If your opponent uses a laggy move by mistake... i mean everyone makes mistakes, but dont base your decisions on a jigglypuff accidentally singing >_>.

Its incredibly strong, but I really don't think it has many uses outside of str8 stylin

EDIT: When you say move freely, do you mean you can b-reverse like other chars, or you can literally move around after the startup? Because if its the latter, that is interesting and something I haven't ever seen.

Ever since Diddy got nerfed, I'm thinking Jiggs isn't so bad any more. Early up-air kills were the number one thing holding her back in my opinion.

I played a Jiggly as a few different characters in some friendlies on friday, and he is quite annoying. He just.says.on.you, I couldn't really breathe and that continues offstage. Knocking him off was always like taking a breath and going back underwater.

That said, he really still suffers from his weight =\. Not just because kills come earlier, but also due to the fact that a trade is almost always benefitting you for this reason... Of course, she is interesting because she also kills so early with rest, it turns the lightweight thing on its head.

Hope she sees some representation... How are her customs?

 

[Pazx]

yes we get it warlock punch is very powerful can we please move on

I like Jiggs in matchups where it's easy to edgeguard. Otherwise, she is hurt by a bunch of changes from Brawl to Sm4sh.

 

[Smog Frog]

nobody knows

but after labbing, pound blitz seems to carry momentum. also, sets up into rest.

 

[Shaya]

I think she's bad ~_~
I usually have played the characters I call bad though.

But in a meta where Sheik may become more dominant, Jiggs is preferring that over Diddy for sure. Probably no character better suited to ignoring needles than Jiggs. Jiggs obviously has room to grow from her players due to the strength of rest.
Funnily enough she's probably the lowest character I rated that didn't seem to get touched in the patch (Mii Gunner perhaps otherwise).

was never bad in the first place, its that she has literally no representation from high-level players so we just say she's "bad" aka we dont know.

If all a character has is someone saying "not bad, but no one plays her so we don't know" then it's fair to say they're bad. It does not mean she will be bad in the future though (not even assuming patches). You do tend to blindly support certain characters though @_@

I would say all theory and anecdotal practice shows her flaws. If her great strengths could not be accentuated by anyone yet (which we know what they are, beast aerial mobility, 5 jumps, small hurtbox, a few solid moves) it shows she's a some combination of exceptionally hard and inadvertently inadequate.

 

[Smog Frog]

its true, i'm super biased towards mons

but i dont see how a character with setups into a move that kills at 50% is bad

 

[|RK|]

If it works it works, but if it works your opponent **** the bed and really you should be able to beat them anyways if you can read them that hard. It isn't a good tactic, because an average player will just keep you in the air racking damage each time you try. If your opponent uses a laggy move by mistake... i mean everyone makes mistakes, but dont base your decisions on a jigglypuff accidentally singing >_>.

Its incredibly strong, but I really don't think it has many uses outside of str8 stylin

EDIT: When you say move freely, do you mean you can b-reverse like other chars, or you can literally move around after the startup? Because if its the latter, that is interesting and something I haven't ever seen.

With Kirby, you can weave mildly in and out in midair. Dunno about Ganondorf himself.

 

[Megamang]

its true, i'm super biased towards mons

but i dont see how a character with setups into a move that kills at 50% is bad

Its other problems a little (this is obvious..)

But I think its also that the bad characters in this game aren't as bad as usual in smash, so when you play her you feel like she deserves to be represented more strongly... but if you start to place her, who is she really better than? There are hoards of people who don't believe their character is low tier for this reason.

 

[Shaya]

G&W has set ups into a move that kills at 8-11%~
Marth has set ups into a move that can kill at 30% (rage exaggeration) for every patch prior to now too.
Bad right now doesn't mean the same as ... ganondorf was in Brawl. I think that classification is a lot more like "underwhelming" over useless, but as other characters get pushed further, others left behind become more apparent, sure they can do good things, but can they do them reliably? Can they handle what others can do to them?

For what it's worth, I'm starting to think Zard is solid, he definitely looks like he's well within niche-tier usability at the very least (i.e. ), he had quite a few buffs and was already able to show some competence in competing.
IMO the weakest characters in the game:

(nerfed ) (previously buffed ) (buffs ) (pretty gud buffs )

And yet they mostly all have fair success at a local level by at least one player (bar Jiggs.. Gunner? Swordfighter? Ike???).

Jigglypuff, much like Lucario, is the type of character you probably don't want being good at what they can do though. If jiggs had melee throws she'd be stupid. If Lucario could live to 150% reliably again we'd be hating our aura dog overlords just like we did during 3DS with vectoring, larger blast zones and super saiyan swag extreme speed.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Warlock punch is good for gimmicks. If you watch 100 matches of the undisputed champion of Ganondorf (Gungnir), you will observe exactly 0 warlock punches. In fact, if you haven't seen any matches of Gungnir's Ganondorf, I don't think you can even really talk about Ganondorf's viability.

(For the record, he beat practically every Ganondorf in the west and Japan without dropping a single game.)

 

[Mr. Johan]

So where does fall in all of this? Seems everyone just plain forgot about the two. They didn't get any nerfs or buffs, right?

 

[DunnoBro]

Doesn't seem like, not even more consistent smashes like other characters got.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And yet they mostly all have fair success at a local level by at least one player (bar Jiggs.. Gunner? Swordfighter? Ike???).

San regularly places in the top 3 in his area, Ryo when we hear from him is doing the same. We have one guy in Alaska of all places apparently doing great with Ike (Got 5th out of 51 in one tournament, top 3 in another smaller tournament or two)

There was the tournament that was won with Swordfighter. Gunner all I know is that San would like to use him/may have gotten to use him once or twice.... I think it may be just Jigglypuff nothing to show atm? At least out of your list of 4 there. I don't remember hearing about Zelda, Kirby or D3 doing anything.

 

[DunnoBro]

Jigglypuff got bodied so hard by diddy, being so easy to grab and could die at like 60 from hoo-hah made her very unappealing competitively.

If the meta become more sheik-centric, I can see her becoming more appealing though.

 

[Trifroze]

Is there any place to see Gungnir's videos all in one place? Pon uploaded his FG stuff into YT and they were great quality versus good opponents, would be great if Gungnir had something similar. I was already amazed by Pon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is there any place to see Gungnir's videos all in one place? Pon uploaded his FG stuff into YT and they were great quality versus good opponents, would be great if Gungnir had something similar. I was already amazed by Pon.

I uploaded a lot of Gungnir's matches to youtube personally from nicovideo. He has some stuff on SHI-Gaming though he mostly only has matches uploaded of him losing against other really good players. Then there's going to his Nicovideo which is linked from my uploads.

I think probably the best way to find him is to go to Nicovideo and search for "ガノンドロフ ぐんぐにる" (literally, "Ganondorf Gungnir").

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Is there any place to see Gungnir's videos all in one place? Pon uploaded his FG stuff into YT and they were great quality versus good opponents, would be great if Gungnir had something similar. I was already amazed by Pon.

You can check out his nico video account here, but you have to sign up if you haven't already. He has a bunch of videos versus some extremely competent opponents.

Edit: A2Z with the Sonic speed

 

[Ffamran]

These aren't true at all.

Character boards are pretty stoopid ... they've always been. Especially the Marth boards.

Join the Falco boards, where there's only 4 regulars including me.

Probably one of the few boards out there that don't slap on high ratios, especially since it's still early in the meta or assume things a lot since 1. not a lot of users and 2. we know Falco's not going to dominate anything. Funny enough, the Villager MU discussion got heated with one Villager arguing that Falco has a clear advantage while the rest say it's more even along with the Falco players, but then again, that Villager only fought one Falco who is able to beat him and make him struggle at their regional. It might just be the whole if you lose to this person a lot, it gets into your head.

The MU was summed up as Falco (ironically) wants to fight on the ground and up-close while Villager wants Falco in the air or off-stage. Pocketing becomes not as useful since Falco's default Blaster doesn't really do much and it doesn't stop him from firing again. Both characters don't have to approach and playing campy hurts Villager more than Falco apparently. Falco essentially takes on Ganondorf's role of being patient since rash decisions would just get him gimped off-stage or killed. It's not a counterpick since Falco doesn't shutdown anything.

Is there any place to see Gungnir's videos all in one place? Pon uploaded his FG stuff into YT and they were great quality versus good opponents, would be great if Gungnir had something similar. I was already amazed by Pon.

Go to @ A2ZOMG 's Youtube channel. I believe he has some of Gungnir's videos uploaded.

Edit: 'd.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can check out his nico video account here, but you have to sign up if you haven't already. He has a bunch of videos versus some extremely competent opponents.

Edit: A2Z with the Sonic speed

You're too slow! I wasn't even early to reply to that checking the timestamp.

I should add, Gungnir is a really chill guy, probably generally speaking a genius (in both Smash and things real life related), and can be found on Twitter. He's great to talk to, and his effort in studying English (supposedly to get into a University) really shows.

When it comes to the Japanese Ganons, I think Pon actually has slightly better matchup knowledge than Gungnir, so he's better to watch when it comes to learning matchup intricacies. Gungnir however has unrivaled reactions and fundamentals (and he comes up with crazy combos).

 

[Trifroze]

You're too slow! I wasn't even early to reply to that checking the timestamp.

I should add, Gungnir is a really chill guy, probably generally speaking a genius (in both Smash and things real life related), and can be found on Twitter. He's great to talk to, and his effort in studying English (supposedly to get into a University) really shows.

When it comes to the Japanese Ganons, I think Pon actually has slightly better matchup knowledge than Gungnir, so he's better to watch when it comes to learning matchup intricacies. Gungnir however has unrivaled reactions and fundamentals (and he comes up with crazy combos).

Just watched Gungnir vs Pon GF (Ganondorf tourney I suppose), I noticed the combo part at the end of that second match.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

What's ironic about this whole situation is that I was just looking at Gungir's Twitter (before Trifoze asked about Gungnir) and saw that he linked a Trifroze video.

 

[san.]

With Ike, Waldo won a few locals as well. Ike hasn't done much at a regional other than blitz getting 7th or 9th at the come up.

Chibo shows interest in gunner. I still have a lot to learn, considering it is my first projectile character. I think the character has what it takes to be high or better.

Jigglypuff is pretty mediocre IMO. Bair is too slow and the low weight hurts hard. She can compete with mostly everyone though because she can abuse ledge vulnerability.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Jigglypuff is so lol against footstools. Most characters can spam jump to kill her. It's really sad to watch but at the same time hilarious.

But you can use Sing customs to prevent this!

 

[Thinkaman]

Re: Rosalina super edgeguard with Luma:

I'm not sure any character has an issue with this but Bowser Jr (can recover high consistently though), DK (if Kong Cyclone), situationally Yoshi, Rosalina herself, (Dark) Pit, probably Robin, Greninja, Duck Hunt, Villager and Olimar (if they cannot go under the stage), MegaMan, and maybe Falcon?

Shifting gears to , I noticed something interesting about his jab1 earlier today: it doesn't cancel when it clanks. Considering how little endlag Mewtwo's jab1 has and the fact that post-clank reeling is based on the damage of the opposing hit, this allows Mewtwo to clank much stronger moves with his jab and still come out with a frame advantage.

This is really important since Mewtwo hates clanking. A lot. Like, Ganondorf levels.

But you can use Sing customs to prevent this!

Huh?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not entirely sure this is the right thread to post in but whatever.

I did a spot of testing to see exactly how much impact Mii sizes had on kill percent. Tests were conducted on Final Destination in training mode as Mario vs. 3 separate Mii Brawlers. The Miis were, respectively, min height/weight, default height/weight, and max height/weight. CPU behavior was set to "Control" to eliminate the effects of DI. Mario performed an uncharged sweetspot fsmash and an uncharged point blank usmash on the Miis from center stage (directly below the recovery platform) until black lightning appeared on hit. Here are the results:

Mii Size|FSmash %|USmash %
Min/Min|100%|122%
Default|102%|124%
Max/Max|103%|125%

While not a particularly large sample of potential Mii sizes (I did not, for instance, test min/25%, min/max, max/min, and so forth) it does show that even at the extreme ends of the scale, Mii size makes very little difference in the grand scheme of things. (EDIT: With respect to how early/late you can expect them to die. Size does matter for speed, jump height, and attack speed/range/power.)

 

[outfoxd]

Doesn't seem like, not even more consistent smashes like other characters got.

Seems like they forgot he exists, floating in "I got some problems" limbo

 

[BSXDrayden]

Honestly, I feel like Jigglypuff is a lot better than people make her out to be. Because Brawl!Puff was so bad and because Melee!Puff was so amazing, I feel like a lot of people have been ignoring her strengths this time that make her so different from the last two games. Does she have 25% rest of amazing bair strings? No, she doesn't. And yes, she did lose the fact that she was essentially the sole aerial-based character in the series apart from perhaps Kirby. But despite that, she has gained *a lot* of new kill options such as: fair strings, bair by itself at higher percentages, dash attack, uair, f-smash, u-smash, etc. etc. Despite her ridiculous lightness making her easy to kill, she has a lot of options that can make her dominate in the right hands and I feel if more people were willing to experiment and practice with her then she'd easily become mid-high tier imo. But so far it just seems like few people want to try her under the assumption that she's not good solely because of the light weight and because she's not Melee!Puff.

tl;dr I feel like Jigglypuff has a lot of untapped potential that just needs to be discovered by more high-level players trying her. Just because a character is underplayed doesn't make them necessarily bad.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

With Ike, Waldo won a few locals as well. Ike hasn't done much at a regional other than blitz getting 7th or 9th at the come up.

Chibo shows interest in gunner. I still have a lot to learn, considering it is my first projectile character. I think the character has what it takes to be high or better.

Jigglypuff is pretty mediocre IMO. Bair is too slow and the low weight hurts hard. She can compete with mostly everyone though because she can abuse ledge vulnerability.

I've started messing around with mii gunner and so far I'm liking the character. There's definitely a lot of potential there. What do you think mii gunner best set is?