Character Competitive Impressions

[Jams.]

I'm not entirely sure this is the right thread to post in but whatever.

I did a spot of testing to see exactly how much impact Mii sizes had on kill percent. Tests were conducted on Final Destination in training mode as Mario vs. 3 separate Mii Brawlers. The Miis were, respectively, min height/weight, default height/weight, and max height/weight. CPU behavior was set to "Control" to eliminate the effects of DI. Mario performed an uncharged sweetspot fsmash and an uncharged point blank usmash on the Miis from center stage (directly below the recovery platform) until black lightning appeared on hit. Here are the results:

Mii Size|FSmash %|USmash %
Min/Min|100%|122%
Default|102%|124%
Max/Max|103%|125%

While not a particularly large sample of potential Mii sizes (I did not, for instance, test min/25%, min/max, max/min, and so forth) it does show that even at the extreme ends of the scale, Mii size makes very little difference in the grand scheme of things. (EDIT: With respect to how early/late you can expect them to die. Size does matter for speed, jump height, and attack speed/range/power.)

Interesting, I've always felt that 0/0 Brawler was fairly heavy for his size but hadn't tested it to confirm. I think it's a pretty odd decision for the Miis to have such similar weights given how different their sizes are.

 

[san.]

Gunner has to change most of his specials depending on the MU. That's part of the complexity. I generally use 3322, though.

 

[Megamang]

Interesting, I've always felt that 0/0 Brawler was fairly heavy for his size but hadn't tested it to confirm. I think it's a pretty odd decision for the Miis to have such similar weights given how different their sizes are.

Those are insanely close. Like, that seems more like an easter egg than an actual balance decision, like how that one guy in the original pokemon had a perfect IV rattata... When someone notices it, they say "cool" but it doesn't make a damn difference.

 

[bc1910]

Jiggs is hurt a lot by the mechanics of this game. I won't go into rage, rage speaks for itself, but there's more things that work against her. Two of her advantages that were previously stellar, her recovery and her edgeguarding, are much smaller advantages. Because all but two or three characters have an excellent recovery, Jiggs' recovery is no longer stellar. And due to recoveries being so strong almost everyone can go deeper than ever to edgeguard, making Jiggs less special from two important angles.

Then you have the fact that everyone else benefits from recoveries being better because they can actually survive to high percents because of their weight. Characters like Bowser Jr, Samus or hell even a middleweight like Sonic can last a really long time because of their crazy recoveries and won't die until they get outright KO'd. Jigglypuff's recovery is awesome but she's so light she gets outright KO'd more easily than anyone else in the game. So not only does her recovery seem less special now, she's less likely to be able to use it because she still dies really quickly while everyone else can live for a long time. These general changes to the characters work against Jigglypuff in a lot of ways.

Low hitstun and low shieldstun also work against her. She doesn't have many guaranteed damage rackers, she can't pressure shields safely because even her high damage shield move (Pound) is unsafe on block and her grabs aren't good. They aren't bad though, 10% per throw with a fast pummel is something characters like Link can only dream of.

Shaya already said what I wanted to say about Rest really. Rest cheese only goes so far when there's a lot of low percent OHKO cheese in this game. It's not like Melee where she can actually combo into Rest whenever she wants. Although Rest being a frame 1 (frame 2 now? I heard someone say frame 1 is invincible and the hitbox is on frame 2?) attack makes it a very strong punish. It can be really effective when done by jumping OoS, or simply dropping shield, walking up and resting someone who does something unsafe on block.

Honestly typing this out has made me want to try Jiggs out again lol... despite her weaknesses I think she's still a really fun character. And she has some strengths that pretty much no other characters have, such as a wide array of safe retreating aerials and a very good sex kick (in a game series where sex kicks have been getting worse since 64). I think Jiggly is kind of bad, but not a lost cause by any means.

For what it's worth, I'm starting to think Zard is solid, he definitely looks like he's well within niche-tier usability at the very least (i.e. ), he had quite a few buffs and was already able to show some competence in competing.

Totally agree. I think Zard is pretty underrated, and not in the same way that everyone seems "underrated" or "has potential". Zard actually has some important strengths that work together to form a solid heavy. Rock Smash is SUPER underrated as a means of getting out of disadvantage, yes it's really punishable on block but Zard can just react to someone chasing him and then use it rather than spamming it when he gets hit. Flare Blitz punishes zoning very hard, and projectiles are quite laggy in this game so you can't always shield in time despite Flare Blitz being easy to react to. Zoning Charizard is always quite risky.

Then you have things like powerful throws and an amazing grab, a solid recovery and excellent jab. Zard just lives FOREVER... I think he might be one of the characters who benefits from rage the most. He has plenty of flaws, like he suffers a lot from a fairly predictable ground game I think, but he plays like a real heavy tank and has a lot going for him.

 

[mimgrim]

Gunner is bat **** crazy fun with a lot of potential. The zoning and trapping game is real. If it weren't for how Miis are still treated in a good bit of places (I refuse to play default height/weight Gunner because it takes away from what I find to be so enjoyable of Gunner, it also doesn't help that with the new patch on the Wii-U version that costumed between the 3DS and Wii-U don't transfer and now I have to unlock them on the Wii-U if I want the costumes to come out properly which suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks and, honestly, makes me less inclined to want to play Miis on the Wii-U now because I've already gone to the trouble of unlocking crap for the 3DS and don't want to again for the Wii-U ;-.

But yea, Mii Gunner really is cray cray fun on top of having a lot of potential.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Gunner has to change most of his specials depending on the MU. That's part of the complexity. I generally use 3322, though.

I feel like Gunner's main weakness is all his Up-Bs are pretty bad. So thus he always has to be careful offstage. Neutral game though seems pretty top tier to me.

 

[mimgrim]

Gunner's Up Specials are mediocre for recovering, yes, but I'll be damned if Cannon Uppercut is bad as it is a great/strong OoS option/get-off-me-move/punish move.

 

[Zage]

These aren't true at all.

Character boards are pretty stoopid ... they've always been. Especially the Marth boards.

Quoted for truth. I thought I was the only one who thought this.

 

[Nu~]

Quoted for truth. I thought I was the only one who thought this.

If it's actual truth, explain yourself.
Why do you think we lose those matchups?
You certainly gave no input when the time came around to discuss them in the Pac-Man thread.

 

[Thinkaman]

I always felt that the Miis all had dismal vertical recovery. Is this ever not the case?

 

[Asdioh]

Recently in here I was talking about how I think Kirby beats Sheik... well I got bodied at a 33 person tournament this weekend, but I did manage to take a game off a Sheik, who then switched to Pikachu and beat me. I thought this replay might demonstrate that pretty well, especially when you consider that I played like total garbo, and he played quite well. I get hit a ton, a LOT more than I should have, but the difference in kill power becomes clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2kb0YSsUP0 pardon the HD potato quality.

 

[warriorman222]

I always felt that the Miis all had dismal vertical recovery. Is this ever not the case?

All the Miis have lower rising versions of the move they copy. ALL of them. Except Piston Punch. This is easiest to see with Helicopter Kick(is made up for with easy kills), Skyward Slash Dash(which also lacks a startup hitbox, and is much slower with less damage), and XX3X Guner (Can't remember name, but goes nowhere near as high or fast as Power of Flight)

 

[Luco]

The character boards like to keep to themselves to a part, and you'll notice it affects their MU spread - obviously, because if similar minds come together it's not uncommon for the idea to be pushed forward more heavily because there's nothing opposing you.

I think when we decide to get an MU chart project going, we're going to need to get the character boards on board. It'll probably be one of our biggest on-board projects. I'd say after a year, every character board is going to have to go through just about every MU, discuss it with the concerned character board and settle on a rating. As daunting as it sounds, I'm not sure there's any other way. BRs have transparency issues and by late Brawl they were outsourcing and asking notable peeps from each board to construct a panel and do discussions. And from what I know, the consensus appears to be that as much as people love tier lists, it's actually the MU chart they find more useful practically.

But what I'm getting at with this is that it will force the character boards to come together. Which, don't get me wrong, I think they'll do eventually anyway, but I think it will be a time to iron some things out in each character's meta and viability/Match-ups. At this stage at the meta, no one person truly has all the information they need. We all have lots of data, references and rumours contained in the minds of each different user on this board, but eventually I believe our greatest achievement here will be sinking all of this information into concrete sources, tables (MU charts) and lists (tier lists), and more.

 

[Unknownkid]

Like it matters.... Both Brawler and Gunner can wall jump. Brawler has Feint Jump to aid its rise and Gunner has Absorption Jump.
I believe without these features, Mii Swordfighter's Hero Spin goes the highest as long as he has the forward momentum. But maybe I am being bias.

 

[Nu~]

The character boards like to keep to themselves to a part, and you'll notice it affects their MU spread - obviously, because if similar minds come together it's not uncommon for the idea to be pushed forward more heavily because there's nothing opposing you.

I think when we decide to get an MU chart project going, we're going to need to get the character boards on board. It'll probably be one of our biggest on-board projects. I'd say after a year, every character board is going to have to go through just about every MU, discuss it with the concerned character board and settle on a rating. As daunting as it sounds, I'm not sure there's any other way. BRs have transparency issues and by late Brawl they were outsourcing and asking notable peeps from each board to construct a panel and do discussions. And from what I know, the consensus appears to be that as much as people love tier lists, it's actually the MU chart they find more useful practically.

But what I'm getting at with this is that it will force the character boards to come together. Which, don't get me wrong, I think they'll do eventually anyway, but I think it will be a time to iron some things out in each character's meta and viability/Match-ups. At this stage at the meta, no one person truly has all the information they need. We all have lots of data, references and rumours contained in the minds of each different user on this board, but eventually I believe our greatest achievement here will be sinking all of this information into concrete sources, tables (MU charts) and lists (tier lists), and more.

That's what we're trying to do right now. We invite players over from the other character's board to get opinions from both sides.

It's just that not everyone takes the invitation, and not everyone is active during the discussions

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's what we're trying to do right now. We invite players over from the other character's board to get opinions from both sides.

It's just that not everyone takes the invitation, and not everyone is active during the discussions

There is also the problem that some characters boards are just... delusional for a lack of a better term. PARTICULARLY if you have a character that had a "meh" rep in Brawl and everyone seems to only be aware of what they lost and refuse to acknowledge what they gained...

There's a reason why the Ike boards have largely stopped bothering with MU discussion stuff externally. Keep running into people who think its Brawl Ike minus some killing power and range.

 

[Ffamran]

The character boards like to keep to themselves to a part, and you'll notice it affects their MU spread - obviously, because if similar minds come together it's not uncommon for the idea to be pushed forward more heavily because there's nothing opposing you.

I think when we decide to get an MU chart project going, we're going to need to get the character boards on board. It'll probably be one of our biggest on-board projects. I'd say after a year, every character board is going to have to go through just about every MU, discuss it with the concerned character board and settle on a rating. As daunting as it sounds, I'm not sure there's any other way. BRs have transparency issues and by late Brawl they were outsourcing and asking notable peeps from each board to construct a panel and do discussions. And from what I know, the consensus appears to be that as much as people love tier lists, it's actually the MU chart they find more useful practically.

But what I'm getting at with this is that it will force the character boards to come together. Which, don't get me wrong, I think they'll do eventually anyway, but I think it will be a time to iron some things out in each character's meta and viability/Match-ups. At this stage at the meta, no one person truly has all the information they need. We all have lots of data, references and rumours contained in the minds of each different user on this board, but eventually I believe our greatest achievement here will be sinking all of this information into concrete sources, tables (MU charts) and lists (tier lists), and more.

I'm pretty sure someone made a matchup chart thread here a while back and tried to get people to do something, but it died off or was killed off by someone.

Found it: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-bros-u-character-matchup-chart.387279/.

There is also the problem that some characters boards are just... delusional for a lack of a better term. PARTICULARLY if you have a character that had a "meh" rep in Brawl and everyone seems to only be aware of what they lost and refuse to acknowledge what they gained...

There's a reason why the Ike boards have largely stopped bothering with MU discussion stuff externally. Keep running into people who think its Brawl Ike minus some killing power and range.

This sort of thinking hurts both the players of that character and players who don't play that character. There's a reason why the Link boards are so guarded and why the Zelda boards are trolly in their defeatist ways. Not only that, but it creates for a hostile environment and makes people feel bad about maining their beloved characters. I just had a Diddy main go to the Falco and perhaps the Fox boards asking about maining them because a friend told him to stop using Diddy because he's broken, top tier, or whatever. This guy is a fan of Donkey Kong Country and Diddy's his favorite character. Why the **** are people trashing on others? Same reason why you have stuff like "Zero Skill Spamaus" and "Blue Cancer".

It also leads to placing characters like Link, Ganondorf, Zelda, Ike, and even Toon Link who was fine in Brawl really low without regard to anything that's different about them like the current ledge mechanics making Ganondorf and Ike's recoveries much better, Ike's air speed making his game plan different and recovery better, or the overall increase in tether recovery lengths.

Look at Seagull Joe. Lost Wolf since he didn't come back (on release), but he liked using Sonic in Brawl, but Sonic wasn't as great as Wolf in Brawl. So what? He plays Sonic now in SSB4 and he's a patient player who takes things slower than 6wX. Hell, I'd even say his Wolf would be much more annoying since he'd basically play "Bairtastic Bair Bros. for Bair and Bair U with Some Blaster". Dude played Diddy in PM too, so he could have in, some alternate universe, irritate everyone with his Diddy in SSB4. So what? If he likes using the characters and their play-styles, then there's nothing to complain about. If he tier hopped, then sure, call him a tier *****, but he isn't and Sonic isn't #1 from this game pre- or post-patch.

That sentiment creates this hostility against the player and the character and it also creates this defeatist attitude of, "Well, ****! This ****, again!? How am I supposed to win again this high tier garbage?!" If Sonic was that freaking good, we'd see more of him, but we don't, now do we?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Are we still talking about jank customs because I want to show this off

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I always felt that the Miis all had dismal vertical recovery. Is this ever not the case?

If brawler used piston punch he would be alright.

But why not use helicopter kick?

 

[Ffamran]

Are we still talking about jank customs because I want to show this off

Holy crap! That disjoint... Actually, that makes sense since gas is, well... a gas and it would spread everywhere. Now if it was a liquid it would spread a bit slower... EEEEEEEEWWWWWWW... I'm going to cleanse myself elsewhere.

 

[Jams.]

If brawler used piston punch he would be alright.

But why not use helicopter kick?

Piston Punch is probably better on Halberd. It also has some use to confuse the opponent's DI, since the optimal DI for Helicopter Kick is the worst DI for Piston Punch, and vice versa.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

G&W has set ups into a move that kills at 8-11%~
Marth has set ups into a move that can kill at 30% (rage exaggeration) for every patch prior to now too.
Bad right now doesn't mean the same as ... ganondorf was in Brawl. I think that classification is a lot more like "underwhelming" over useless, but as other characters get pushed further, others left behind become more apparent, sure they can do good things, but can they do them reliably? Can they handle what others can do to them?

For what it's worth, I'm starting to think Zard is solid, he definitely looks like he's well within niche-tier usability at the very least (i.e. ), he had quite a few buffs and was already able to show some competence in competing.
IMO the weakest characters in the game:

(nerfed ) (previously buffed ) (buffs ) (pretty gud buffs )

And yet they mostly all have fair success at a local level by at least one player (bar Jiggs.. Gunner? Swordfighter? Ike???).

Jigglypuff, much like Lucario, is the type of character you probably don't want being good at what they can do though. If jiggs had melee throws she'd be stupid. If Lucario could live to 150% reliably again we'd be hating our aura dog overlords just like we did during 3DS with vectoring, larger blast zones and super saiyan swag extreme speed.

But what if I want to start the aura dogs dominance and be good at killing at 30% with a Fsmash when I am at 180%.

 

[Zage]

If it's actual truth, explain yourself.
.

Smash 4 not only hasn't been out long enough for people to actually develop a deep understanding of (BUZZWORD) the meta game, but a large amount of the character boards are frequented by casual or uncompetitive players giving competitive opinions. Most of these players don't even have a firm grasp on their characters neutral let alone how it matches up against others or how to interpret frame data.


MU ratings are all over the place now, hell most boards don't even rate the same MU even remotely the same, and in some cases players overlook their own favorite character's faults. So until something like the BR comes about, I'll take every MU with the smallest grain of salt I can find.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Until a backroom has been established every single "MU rating" should be taken with the smallest grain of salt you can find.

And we should take an "official" backroom's MU rating seriously? There's kind of a precedent here; a bad one, to boot. I point you in the direction of the Melee and Brawl BRs, respectively.

Also, I can confirm that the D3 boards are humble enough about our character to give realistic expectations. Shout-outs to @Soul Train, @FimPhym, @shrooby, and @Lavani for holding it down.

Smooth Criminal

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Gunner has to change most of his specials depending on the MU. That's part of the complexity. I generally use 3322, though.

Ah I see I'm like day 1 with gunner and I've been using 3112. But like I said I haven't dug to deeply into the character just a couple of games thus far. So only time will tell but I'm a fan of flame pillar thus far. Seems pretty good.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Megamang
Yes, upon starting up the Reverse Warlock Punch, you can move freely in left or right to position yourself with the move. That's why it's safer to use than you think. It's not like I'm NOT going to arc over my opponent the opportunity I can get.

The attack is the only physical attack that can KO your opponent at 0%, not including Final Smashes or Suicide Grabs. If you can use it in a proper manner, there's no telling what you can do with it. The only setup needed is for your opponent to make an unsafe mistake.

 

[Zage]

And we should take an "official" backroom's MU rating seriously? There's kind of a precedent here; a bad one, to boot. I point you in the direction of the Melee and Brawl BRs, respectively.

Also, I can confirm that the D3 boards are humble enough about our character to give realistic expectations. Shout-outs to @Soul Train, @FimPhym, @shrooby, and @Lavani for holding it down.

Smooth Criminal

The thing with a BR is that they are proven knowledgeable enough the game to articulate an opinion about the game on a competitive level. That isn't to say that there aren't users on the character boards who aren't, but they are far less easier to identify.

Using an analogy, I'd rather talk to a mechanic about the problems my car has, and has the licenses to prove it as opposed to someone random who kind of knows what hes talking about.

 

[deepseadiva]

And we should take an "official" backroom's MU rating seriously?

Some kind of curated discussion would be better than the For Glory impressions that make up most discussion on here, I think. But even then those are gonna be shaky, not only because the game is still pretty new, but the overall balance of the game is really well done making most matchups evenish.

Probably the most useful thing we could get out of any matchup chart attempt would be the 70:30s pointed out like Mac vs Sheik and such. Any kind of 60:40s or whatever isn't gonna indicate anything real.

 

[Ffamran]

Should I post Ito's or not... I mean, I could link you all to it: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...neral-discussion.370875/page-18#post-19081917. Whatever, discuss Ito's opinion... Sorry, Ito.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The thing with a BR is that they are proven knowledgeable enough the game to articulate an opinion about the game on a competitive level. That isn't to say that there aren't users on the character boards who aren't, but they are far less easier to identify.

Using an analogy, I'd rather talk to a mechanic about the problems my car has, and has the licenses to prove it as opposed to someone random who kind of knows what hes talking about.

Bad example, considering that both of the BRs had their fair share of "randoms" that hardly played the game at a high level and spectated mostly, and in some cases were brought in on an entirely different set of values and quantifiers (re: nepotism).

@ deepseadiva

Real quick: That is fair, but again, you remember how bull**** some of the MU rankings by the BR were in their heyday.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Locke 06]

Matchup ratios on character boards mean very little if not nothing at all. Anyone who is in charge or involved in character board MU discussion will tell you that.

Matchup discussion is what is valuable and you can very easily discern who knows their **** and who doesn't. Then you can make up your own mind on what the MU ratio is.

Ratios are shortcuts, worse than sparknotes, of matchup analysis.

Example: Kirby boards rated MM vs Kirby 50-50. You read the analysis and it does not look 50-50 at all.

 

[Zage]

Bad example, considering that both of the BRs had their fair share of "randoms" that hardly played the game at a high level and spectated mostly, and in some cases were brought in on an entirely different set of values and quantifiers (re: nepotism).

[citation needed]

 

[Asdioh]

Matchup ratios on character boards mean very little if not nothing at all. Anyone who is in charge or involved in character board MU discussion will tell you that.

@Reserved
also lol, I put the Pikachu:Kirby matchup as something like 42.5:57.5 and everyone was freaking out about the numbers


Anyway this conversation's boring, can we start talking about how good/bad Mewtwo is again?

 

[HeroMystic]

Matchup ratios on character boards mean very little if not nothing at all. Anyone who is in charge or involved in character board MU discussion will tell you that.

Match-up ratios are only important if they're accurate. Unfortunately no board can say that.

 

[Antonykun]

Match-up ratios are only important if they're accurate. Unfortunately no board can say that.

but then how will we know if its accurate?

 

[Locke 06]

Actually... let me retract that.

Ratios, like tier lists, are really helpful for people who don't want to actually know how the matchup plays out. If character boards could get a semi-accurate ratio, it would go a long way. Boards that average every user's score, in my opinion, are inaccurate. Arguments should be weighed based on how knowledgeable/experienced the players are and how in depth they go.

If "I always lose against my friend - 30-70" holds the same weight as "we have an infinite that is very easy to initiate and execute - 80-20," then it's obviously going to be inaccurate and unhelpful, but if someone knowledgeable weighs the arguments and comes up with a somewhat accurate number, then other people who want to use the shortcut have something to work off of.

And I mentioned the Kirby boards because Tsundereserved and I have discussed the MU in depth and played it countless times. There's a reason why he mentioned the MM matchup when starting up a new MU thread. (I didn't really understand what that glare was for... but I took it at face value. If it was a joke, I missed it)


Edit: You don't know when the MU ratio is accurate. Discussion is all you have, and some discussion is better than no discussion. Unless you want to do the research yourself, you have to trust others. Then you need to decide who you can trust. You have no other choice.

And writing this I realize that some people are too young to understand that textbooks aren't always true. merp.

 

[HeroMystic]

but then how will we know if its accurate?

Frame data and data of top level play to back up the claims. If there's no data then there's no proof.

 

[Ffamran]

but then how will we know if its accurate?

Plot-twist: Matchups don't exist. The game you are playing now is all in your head.

Eh, I stay away from ratios for two reasons: 1. I'm not a competitive player and I'm just learning competitive stuff and 2. it's still early and I'd rather keep stuff like: "X goes 80:20 Y" this early on and it could deter people and make people feel like that MU is really difficult even against players of lower or equal skill. The mindset of, "Great, I'm going to lose this MU", isn't something I want, especially this early on. If in 5 years and it's found that Falco goes 0:100 with everyone, then whatever, but 0:100 now? No way, man, that's way too early when we don't know everyone's 80% to full potential. For now, I'd rather stick with discussing how MUs work and strategies at a basic level.

 

[Asdioh]

And I mentioned the Kirby boards because Tsundereserved and I have discussed the MU in depth and played it countless times. There's a reason why he mentioned the MM matchup when starting up a new MU thread. (I didn't really understand what that glare was for... but I took it at face value. If it was a joke, I missed it)

It's sort of a joke, but he believes in ratios more strongly than I do. The problem I see with matchup discussion is like, you need high level players on both sides of the matchup to really get into it. This is a problem because 1. there aren't a lot of high level players for a lot of characters, and 2. even if there are, they need to be willing to discuss the matchups intelligently and in-depth. Like, I can easily see the Diddy:Sheik matchup getting discussed, but the Megaman:Kirby matchup is a lot harder to talk about, because that matchup is seen far less often in general, and by lower level players in general.
Also I didn't know you could edit the names when you tag the players, that's pretty funny. Locke, what do YOU think the Kirby:MM matchup is like? I don't see it being far off from 50:50 either way, especially with customs involved.


Also Mewtwo is fun guys, have you seen that Fair and Teleport cancel? Oh man, stuff!

 

[Thinkaman]

Using an analogy, I'd rather talk to a mechanic about the problems my car has, and has the licenses to prove it as opposed to someone random who kind of knows what hes talking about.

In this analogy, the character boards are a bunch of mechanics of various levels (some amateur, some professional) who own the same car.

The back room is a bunch of Formula 1 racers, some of whom might own the same car.

Edit: Though, to be completely honest, I see the question of "Which is better for determining matchup ratios: The character sub-forums or a hypothetical backroom?" as more like "Which is better for putting spinners on my car? A Starbucks or the Mayo Clinic?"