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Character Competitive Impressions

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Cassio

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The nerf to pika was actually significant objectively, but his meta game hadn't evolved enough to make full use of his ledge speed so effectively it wasn't significant. It was one-of-those-things-I-was-holding- out-on for a bit. But for instance, if pika grabbed the ledge immediately after the opponent and did a get up, he'd have an approximately ~10 frame advantage on whatever ledge option the opponent chose (whereas other characters trying the same thing have a frame disadvantage if the opponent input a ledge option right away). If they got trumped instead, they lose their invincibility grabbing the ledge again and pika could usmash or try for a utilt stage spike (character dependent). There was no reason not to try to trump and input a ledge option right away.

Also I feel pika does nasty things to yoshi, in my experience at least. Don't believe I've lost to a yoshi yet including sky who's been claimed as the best yoshi NA.
 
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FullMoon

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It's just kinda odd to see Greninja and Meta Knight being listed as 60:40 in Pikachu's favor (even 65:35 in MK's case) when I've heard a lot about how those two are Pika's worst MUs, which were 55:45 at worst.

Personally lately I've been finding the Pikachu MU to be even as far as Greninja is concerned. I still need more MU knowledge though, but I can win consistently against good Pikachu players, my only problem with the MU is that I haven't quite figured how to deal with Quick Attack properly yet.

That and there's also the matter of Wi-Fi being Wi-Fi.
 

Ffamran

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It's longer then foxes, diddys, and pikas which makes no sense visually. I remember testing this because I was frustrated by losing the dtilt spacing battle vs a dtilting falco since pikas dtilt is as long as or longer then most reasonable dtilts in the game.

Might've been better to say useful horizontal range. Reflector, fair, and other long horizontal moves tend to be punishable on shield. Dtilt is fast and has reasonably low cool down, I'd imagine it's hard to punish on shield.
It pushes shields from what the the guys said over at the Falco boards. Falco's OOS options are solid as aside from using Phantasm, Fire Bird, Accele-Reflector, Reflector Void, dash and pivot grab; and Side Smash, nothing comes out slower than frame 8.
 

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Ewww, I don't trust ESAM writing Pikachu MU ratios, especially since this is the same guy who thought Pika/MK in Brawl was even. lol
 

Cassio

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This might be a bit simplistic/an exception might exist, but I think any character that can't reliably and safely hit a crouching Pikachu outside his dtilt range can't have a better then even MU with him. From that range he has too many options.
 
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bc1910

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To be honest people didn't listen to ESAM when he said that about MK. His MU chart shows similarly bold claims that are worth taking with a grain of salt. Interesting to see his opinion nonetheless.

EDIT: @ Cassio Cassio now that I think is true. If you can't hit Pikachu in that range without making a massive commitment you're not going to have a fun time. You need to be able to outrange Pikachu safely on the ground and/or have an excellent dashgrab to capitalise on when Pikachu shields or rolls. That's actually a big part of the reason why I believe Greninja goes even with Pikachu, he fits both of those criteria and has no issue hitting a crouch because his attacks hit close to the ground.
 
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Zage

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Pikachu is definitely a contender for being one of tops, so him having a stupidly good matchup spread isn't too much of a stretch. His advantaged state is pretty damn oppressive and he has absolutely no problem getting in, and once hes its tough to get away.
 
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Smog Frog

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This might be a bit simplistic/an exception might exist, but I think any character that can't reliably and safely hit a crouching Pikachu outside his dtilt range can't have a better then even MU with him. From that range he has too many options.
:4ganondorf: can do this(lol @ that dtilt disjoint+range)

also what :4ganondorf: does in 1 hit is equal to what :4pikachu: can do in like 3. it may not seem like much at first but when you make your first mistake your lead(and stock)disintegrate. very few characters already have room for error when fighting :4ganondorf:, pika has less than most.

but :4pikachu: has arguably the best button in the game, so its probably in :4pikachu:'s favor. but real talk, is there any single button in the game that's better than quick attack?
 
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irokex13

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To be honest people didn't listen to ESAM when he said that about MK. His MU chart shows similarly bold claims that are worth taking with a grain of salt. Interesting to see his opinion nonetheless.

EDIT: @ Cassio Cassio now that I think is true. If you can't hit Pikachu in that range without making a massive commitment you're not going to have a fun time. You need to be able to outrange Pikachu safely on the ground and/or have an excellent dashgrab to capitalise on when Pikachu shields or rolls. That's actually a big part of the reason why I believe Greninja goes even with Pikachu, he fits both of those criteria and has no issue hitting a crouch because his attacks hit close to the ground.
:4pit::4darkpit:? They really fit that description, and from what I have experienced, they can hold their own against Pikachu.
 

Diddy Kong

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I disagree that post-patch, Pikachu has an advantage over Diddy now. I still think it's either 55-45 for Diddy, or 50-50.
 

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:4ganondorf: can do this(lol @ that dtilt disjoint+range)

also what :4ganondorf: does in 1 hit is equal to what :4pikachu: can do in like 3. it may not seem like much at first but when you make your first mistake your lead(and stock)disintegrate. very few characters already have room for error when fighting :4ganondorf:, pika has less than most.

but :4pikachu: has arguably the best button in the game, so its probably in :4pikachu:'s favor. but real talk, is there any single button in the game that's better than quick attack?
I honestly haven't had any trouble with Pika personally in a while, though all of the Pikas I've faced have either been weaker players than me or pocket Pikas that, while decent, don't use him to his full potential. I have seen enough potential to understand why the MU's in Pika's favor, but it's not like it's an actual 70:30 MU against Ganon like Rosa and Villager where it feels horribly uphill to go against any decent player. With customs on gimps become less of a problem for Ganon, but Pika also gets better kill options. Fortunately Dark Fists is just as ridiculous a punish move as HSB, and Ganon's range and power do make it pretty scary for Pika. I'd say the MU is 60:40 Pika without customs and 55:45 Pika with.
 

Cassio

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EDIT: @ Cassio Cassio now that I think is true. If you can't hit Pikachu in that range without making a massive commitment you're not going to have a fun time. You need to be able to outrange Pikachu safely on the ground and/or have an excellent dashgrab to capitalise on when Pikachu shields or rolls. That's actually a big part of the reason why I believe Greninja goes even with Pikachu, he fits both of those criteria and has no issue hitting a crouch because his attacks hit close to the ground.
:4ganondorf: can do this(lol @ that dtilt disjoint+range)

also what :4ganondorf: does in 1 hit is equal to what :4pikachu: can do in like 3. it may not seem like much at first but when you make your first mistake your lead(and stock)disintegrate. very few characters already have room for error when fighting :4ganondorf:, pika has less than most.

but :4pikachu: has arguably the best button in the game, so its probably in :4pikachu:'s favor. but real talk, is there any single button in the game that's better than quick attack?
:4pit::4darkpit:? They really fit that description, and from what I have experienced, they can hold their own against Pikachu.
I disagree that post-patch, Pikachu has an advantage over Diddy now. I still think it's either 55-45 for Diddy, or 50-50.
Thoughts:
Mario and Luigi are the best examples I can think of as characters who struggle in the scenario I described. It doesnt mean they cant do well it just limits them to an extent.

Pit/dpit Im unsure, I dont know how well his low-to-the-ground range and speed is compared to pika, but regardless his dash attack forces pikachu to be really honest with his approaches so I think he does well in this MU. I could see this MU being hard as the metagame progresses.

Ganon the key difference is "reliably and safely". But ganon does well for other reasons that you mentioned. On paper pikachu should be solid in this MU, but post-patch Ganon probably gains the most of anyone from pikachus light weight (because of nerfs to other characters) which will always make this MU tough.

Greninja I dont think hits pika too safely on the ground, but like fox and other fast characters he's mobile enough to force pikachu to play the MU more honestly.

I think Pikachu Diddy is probably 60:40 or better, with customs its certainly better. While diddy has his strengths, in the head to head Diddy ends up being a less versatile pikachu who struggles more at killing.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Diddy struggling with killing? Nah, not at all. His aerials got nerfed, but F Smash, D Smash, D Air, and even U Smash can all kill with relative ease and makes crushing rocks seem such a breeze. Especially vs Pikachu. Diddy's damage output is still better than Pikachu's, and he is going to live longer as well. Banana follow ups on the ground are fatal to Pikachu to. I cannot see how people would change a matchup about ~15~20 % from Diddy to Pikachu's favor just because of a few nerfs in aerial kill power. Diddy's frame data, mobility and 85% of his tools are still out there and beating people badly. If he beated Pikachu before, he will still be beating Pikachu. There's more to Diddy than Hoo Hah :rolleyes: and that is the reason why he was always considered the best: his overall toolbox.
 
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Yikarur

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Diddys frame data is overall still far superior. I don't undersrand where peoples assumption "he can't kill now" comes from.
His throws are as strong as before, his fsmash and upsmash kill pretty well while he has easy set-ups into any of these moves.
Diddy is still Top3 imo, just not as ridiculous as before.
 

Cassio

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Diddy's fsmash range got nerfed no? In any case, Pikachu has legit kill set ups starting at 80% that dont require a read into smash attack. Diddys mediocre ground game compared to pika was already a problem for him before. The nerfs for diddy square in on this MU, his biggest advantages in the MU came from his damage output and taking early stocks.
 
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Diddy Kong

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F Smash got no range nerfs, people claimed it had more after-lag but tests indicate that that's not the case. F Smash is still the same as before, and therefore it should be feared. Especially by light weights as Pikachu. I also don't agree that Diddy has worse ground game than Pikachu, as Diddy's grab game is definitely better, and he has his Banana OoS with set ups of course. He's still doing more damage than Pikachu.

The only matchup I see being majorly overhauled now for Diddy is Luigi. Luigi is more dangerous now because of the same reasons as I think Diddy > Pikachu. Luigi lives longer, is stronger, and his traction prevents him from falling prey to Banana > F Smash.

But other than him, I think Diddy's matchups are mostly the same.
 
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Pazzo.

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I'm actually glad Diddy's still usable.

He's still a great character, and now that he's not the Air God, people can play him without getting a ton of greif.
 

Diddy Kong

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Diddy would still be Air God if F Air could kill as it did in Brawl.
 

Pazzo.

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Thankfully, characters shouldn't be trump cards.

Looking at you Fox and MK.
 

Cassio

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Short stocks are traditionally not the greatest hinderance for a character, pikachu has more to fear from characters that can land kill moves reliably.
Please stop saying that.
It's a reality of this MU, Ive stated why in the past. I welcome discussion on it.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Banana > everything else on the ground.

You know this is reality.

 

Pazzo.

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Diddy's fsmash range got nerfed no? In any case, Pikachu has legit kill set ups starting at 80% that dont require a read into smash attack. Diddys mediocre ground game compared to pika was already a problem for him before. The nerfs for diddy square in on this MU, his biggest advantages in the MU came from his damage output and taking early stocks.
Mind explaining why you think Diddy has a weak ground game?
 

TheReflexWonder

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To be fair, Pikachu doesn't have to be on the ground too much, and Pikachu's silly hitboxes can help catch or clank with bananas, too.
 
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Cassio

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With two bananas that beat any attack thatd be a more reliable argument. With one banana that loses to any attack including quick attack, its just a matter of patience.
Mind explaining why you think Diddy has a weak ground game?
Keep in mind its in relation to pika. This is a bit simplistic since tools work together, but lets do a crude comparison. Forgive me if I miss some things.

Pika
Great Initial dash speed
Good run-stop (IASA frames)
Tied for best roll in the game
Tied for best spot dodge in the game
Quick Attack
Extremely small frame
Disjointed (same range as diddy's) low cool down dtilt, mediocre startup (7 startup, 12 frames cooldown)
Quick sweeping tilts
Great run-usmash
Jolt
Outstanding grab game
Aerials that connect along the ground (not falling aerials)

Diddy
Great initial dash
Banana
Fast Usmash?
Disjointed quick startup dtilt, medicore cooldown (4 startup, 20 cooldown)
Tied for best roll in the game
Disjointed dtilt
Peanut
Outstanding grab game
[Monkey flip tends to go over pika]

I know peeps swoon over diddy's 4 frame dtilt, but Im unsure they realize just how much pika can pull off a dtilt with such little endlag. Hitting a shield puts the opponent in a very compromising position
 
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Diddy Kong

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Thunder Jolt can probably clash with bananas and destroy them, but Diddy won't be throwing them when Pikachu is spamming that move. I also cannot imagine F Air losing to anything Pikachu has in the air when it comes to priority either. Diddy also has D Tilt on the ground, his grab combos, dash attacks and very strong Smash attacks for their speed.

At worst, I see this matchup as a fair 50-50.

However, not being able to hit with Side B as much as other characters IS a thing that is bothersome in this matchup I now realise after Cassio's list.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Even now i'm not sure if Pika can claim to be on the same level as Diddy in terms of grab game.
If you're doubting it, it's probably not true.

Diddy's reduced knockback on U Throw is actually a buff, as it combos into F Air very easily which does a nice 18~19% damage. F Throw also leads into combos, and at higher %s, D Throw is usable again. Diddy's aerials are also harder to DI away from than Pikachu's Thunder.

Although, Pikachu is one of the few characters that cannot be combo'd by Diddy with F Throw, so that's a thing.

Overall, I still think Diddy has a good advantage over Pikachu.
 

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This game isn't purely balanced, but a fighting game with perfect balance is as possible as finding a unicorn. Of course this game isn't balanced, but it's the closest Smash game (and fighting game period) to balanced. Even if you consider it because this game is too early and/or because of the mechanics, but this game legitimately doesn't have that many match-ups that are extremely lopsided. Megaman vs King Dedede and a few Little Mac match-ups are all I can think of. Most match-ups in the game are a small advantage/disadvantage or 50/50, and that's something unheard of in a fighting game, let alone one with this many characters.
Sol Badguy and Ky Kiske would like a word.
 

Diddy Kong

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The MU is probably even *ducks*

But seriously, is Rocketbarrel Attack worth it in this MU? I can think of argument(s) going either way.
Diddy would most likely want to keep Pikachu in a situation where he's easiest to juggle, that means he wants Pikachu to be above him, as it limits Pika's ground game tools a lot. I could see Rocket Barrel Attack as being useful as to defeat Pikachu much quicker than usual, but you'll have to risk power with a whole lot of risk involved with safety for recovery. I would rather choose recovery in this case and just hope I can get in a F Smash to land kills.
 

Thinkaman

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So comparing the balance of different fighting games has 4 primary problems.


First, it doesn't take into account differences in format of the games. Suppose I say a matchup is "3:7"; does that mean I win 3 out of 10...
  • 1 1-Stock Game?
  • 1 2-Stock Game?
  • 1 3-stock Game?
  • 1 4-stock Game?
  • Any of the above with the addition of a timer?
  • 1 Bo3 Rounds of any of the above?
  • 1 Bo3 Round with meter carry-over?
  • 1 Bo5 Round of either?
  • 2 Round Sets of any of those?
  • 3 Round Sets of any of those?
Sure, we can say "default settings" (pretending they exist and are universally accepted), but now we're just comparing Apples and Oranges--even more than we already are.

The different structuring of the game and the radical difference of carrying over damage, stale moves, rage, meter, or other resources has a huge impact on what the definition of these ratios are.


Second, these ratios are abstracted to the point where when communities discuss them, they have little connection to actual statistical results and are just mnemonic labels the community ascribes based on social convention. A "8:2" in one community is not the same as an "8:2" in another community.


Third, there is no singular definition of what makes a set of data "more balanced." Two people could have access to perfect data for two different games and still disagree on which one is "more balanced." For example, I am pretty sure the best measure is "standard deviation of matchup ratios"; other people have other viewpoints, and I think they are wrong but certainly can't ignore that it is a disputed subject. Though I disagree, I don't think it's asinine to instead demand a criteria fixated solely on top-level viability, nor to insist on some kind of recursive, weighted measure.

For example, suppose we agree that Ganon in Brawl was the worst character and had a 2:8 matchup against Olimar. If we improve that to a 3:7, is the game more balanced? I would insist it is (just the tiniest bit), but others would say it actually isn't since Ganon is still not viable at top-level play. The point isn't who is correct, but that it's a matter of dispute with no common definition.


Fourth, even if you agree with my (definitely best) definition of "standard deviation of matchup ratios", an implication of that is that larger casts will tend to be more balanced. This is at odds with most people's intuitions regarding balance, since balance is a subtractive design element (so laymen evaluate it based on outlier anecdotes) and balance design work is indeed exponentially more difficult with more characters. (There is on average "less distance to go", but the difficulty of going that distance is exponentially higher.)

For example, if Ryu has a 8:2 matchup against E.Honda in SF2, that's 1/120 matchups, or 0.833% of the entire game.
But if Meta Knight has a 8:2 matchup against Little Mac, that's 1/1326 matchups, or 0.075% of the entire game.

A single skewed matchup in Smash 4, in almost all statistical measures you could consider, has less than a tenth the significance of an equally skewed matchup in Super Turbo. The larger the roster gets, the higher the natural density of even matchup becomes. This is the sort of statistical reality that many people have trouble internalizing, and reject on principle.

In other words, even if you overcame all the other issues to establish a "fair" comparison, most people would not care to listen to it anyway.
 
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Ffamran

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Diddy would most likely want to keep Pikachu in a situation where he's easiest to juggle, that means he wants Pikachu to be above him, as it limits Pika's ground game tools a lot. I could see Rocket Barrel Attack as being useful as to defeat Pikachu much quicker than usual, but you'll have to risk power with a whole lot of risk involved with safety for recovery. I would rather choose recovery in this case and just hope I can get in a F Smash to land kills.
This post just bought up a question: is there any character that wants people to be below them most of the time? Most characters don't really have fast Dairs or moves that cover below options well and I'm not talking about Ganondorf wanting people to be below him off-stage, I'm talking about like being able to pressure even more heavily than Meta Knight with his Dair and more like Melee Fox's Dair to grab, or Melee Falco being able to pillar.
 
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Diddy Kong

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This post just bought up a question: is there any character that wants people to be below them most of the time? Most characters don't really have fast Dairs or moves that cover below options well and I'm not talking about Ganondorf wanting people to be below him off-stage, I'm talking about like being able to pressure even more heavily than Meta Knight with his Dair and more like Melee Fox's Dair to grab, or Melee Falco being able to pillar.
:4diddy: really likes people above him because of U Air's big coverage and comboability. But anywhere in the air after being send upwards is good for Diddy.

:4sheik: also likes people above her to start combos, or in a similar position as Diddy would like his prey.

:4ness: can spam PK Thunder easily on people above him, especially floaties.

:4mewtwo: likes people above him to poke them with U Tilt and U Airs leading to possible follow ups.

:4dk: can do some nice things to with U Airs and U tilts.
 

FullMoon

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:4diddy: really likes people above him because of U Air's big coverage and comboability. But anywhere in the air after being send upwards is good for Diddy.

:4sheik: also likes people above her to start combos, or in a similar position as Diddy would like his prey.

:4ness: can spam PK Thunder easily on people above him, especially floaties.

:4mewtwo: likes people above him to poke them with U Tilt and U Airs leading to possible follow ups.

:4dk: can do some nice things to with U Airs and U tilts.
He was asking about characters that like the opponent to be below them...
 

Ffamran

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:4diddy: really likes people above him because of U Air's big coverage and comboability. But anywhere in the air after being send upwards is good for Diddy.

:4sheik: also likes people above her to start combos, or in a similar position as Diddy would like his prey.

:4ness: can spam PK Thunder easily on people above him, especially floaties.

:4mewtwo: likes people above him to poke them with U Tilt and U Airs leading to possible follow ups.

:4dk: can do some nice things to with U Airs and U tilts.
That's not what I was asking; you answered about characters wanting people above them so they can juggle, kill, etc. which almost everyone wants. I'm asking about the opposite of wanting someone below them for comboing, pressuring, killing, etc.

Edit: Literally :4greninja:'d by @ FullMoon FullMoon .
 
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Djent

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@ Ffamran Ffamran No, even if you can cover the space below you, it still only mitigates the inherent positional weakness of falling & landing.

I also don't think Melee spacies' shield pressure is quite analogous as air-to-ground is different than being "above" someone.
 

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This post just bought up a question: is there any character that wants people to be below them most of the time? Most characters don't really have fast Dairs or moves that cover below options well and I'm not talking about Ganondorf wanting people to be below him off-stage, I'm talking about like being able to pressure even more heavily than Meta Knight with his Dair and more like Melee Fox's Dair to grab, or Melee Falco being able to pillar.
I don't think there's anyone in the game that wants to be above the opponent, but there are certainly characters that don't mind it nearly as much. I think it boils down to asking "what tools does this character have that can help them escape a juggle?"

  • Teleports (Farore's Wind)
  • Burst movement (Bouncing Fish)
  • Multiple jumps (Kirby)
  • Air stall specials (Lloid Rocket)
  • Downward projectiles (Morph Ball Bombs)
  • Counterattacks (Marth)
  • "Stall and fall" moves (Falcon Kick)
  • Disjointed dairs (Rosalina)
  • Other miscellaneous abilities (Peach's float)

Some are more useful than others, and of course there's a good deal of counterplay to explore as well. Let's not even go into reads because that's a cluster**** of "I know you know I know..." that never goes anywhere productive in a discussion. But if a character has several of those options to work with (and they don't leave you in a worse position than before) then I'd say they can manage being juggled better than most.
 
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Diddy Kong

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He was asking about characters that like the opponent to be below them...
:4falcon: and :4ganondorf: are my best guesses cause of their D Airs but other than them, not too sure. In certain cases, other characters with strong D Air meteors would like it to, as :4diddy::4dk::4link:.
 

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Scotch Plains, NJ
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ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
3/7 match-up means you will never win vs a competent opponent that knows what to do.

Doesn't matter what game we are talking about.
 
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