Character Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

Does anybody know how to properly DI Diddy Kong's down throw to avoid the potential follow-ups? Some people say Up and Away and some Down and Back. Picture Representation can help a lot too.

Scream "HOOOOO!" before he throws you, itll probably slow him down a little.


In all seriousness, people say DI so that you are the most horizontal, but how do you feel about when diddy has his back to the ledge, near the ledge? I play some diddys who will still do the d-throw because they know you will DI far offstage, then follow with an aerial which puts you in a really ****ty position. In this situation, is it reasonable to just DI up and take the u-air and being above diddy, rather than being offstage against diddy?

 

[Blobface]

Scream "HOOOOO!" before he throws you, itll probably slow him down a little.


In all seriousness, people say DI so that you are the most horizontal, but how do you feel about when diddy has his back to the ledge, near the ledge? I play some diddys who will still do the d-throw because they know you will DI far offstage, then follow with an aerial which puts you in a really ****ty position. In this situation, is it reasonable to just DI up and take the u-air and being above diddy, rather than being offstage against diddy?

If he has his back to the ledge, you might want to DI Forward in preparation for B-throw, which would also pop you up farther from the D-throw and make it harder to follow up.

 

[Megamang]

If he has his back to the ledge, you might want to DI Forward in preparation for B-throw, which would also pop you up farther from the D-throw and make it harder to follow up.

I feel like this response is the reason Diddy is d-throwing in the first place, since you end up pretty far above diddy which is a bad position. I guess im trying to get to safety easily, but if that was easily possible then there would be no reason to throw someone, so maybe I just want it all... except for my characters' followups, they should be inescapable =P

...


Something I really like about sm4sh's smashboards presence is the optimism I see from the character boards. I mean, people who play **** characters still acknowledge that, but otherwise there is a can-do kind of feeling coming from the players. When I consider a character to play in smash, first thing I do after playing around a little with that character is check their smashboards character specific board. For a lot of the characters I have checked out, some of the top posters on their board claim very few disadvantageous matchups, many consider every matchup winnable and only slight disadvantages. I often even see thoughts of no bad matchups as their character is more fleshed out. This stands out a lot compared to brawl, where the boards would often seem discouraged at some matchups, and that their character is severely limited. I think this is testament to both the balance of the game, and the overall positive attitude of the people pushing the meta forward. Also, the possibility of balance patches makes it seem a lot less hopeless to lose to a broken character.

The above wasn't very specific, but I wanted to share some positive feelings I was having about the state of the game. The attitude of "My character is really good, and I want to show people that" leads to progress and optimism. Being able to actually pressure a shield in this game has a lot to do with it I feel. Character loyalism seems even strong in this iteration of the game.

<3 you all.

 

[Yonder]

In regards to Mewtwo's recent 2nd/150th placement...impressive yeah. If Mewtwo ate a couple of Big Mac's [weight increase] he'd be freaking devastating. So much range, amazing projectile, 2nd best recovery, a reflector [projectile + reflector combo is great for anyone]. Average speed mobility and attack wise, but he can keep people out and camp as he pleases. I've been trying to incorperate air dodges a lot as opponents get a split second to tell what he's going to do out of it. Not surprised he lost to Falcon, rushdown characters hurt Mewtwo pretty hard. Fox is another bad matchup of note, maybe his worst.

As it stands, mid tier. He's not beating the higher tiers, but he's better than characters like the Marths, Charizard, couple of other low tiers.

 

[Superbat]

Exhitbition top 16 matches in final smash attack is about to start. on teamsp00ky's stream. The 3v3's just ended. (Dkwill went in so much)

 

[Megamang]

Exhitbition top 16 matches in final smash attack is about to start. on teamsp00ky's stream. The 3v3's just ended. (Dkwill went in so much)

Do you have a link?

Where do you guys find good twitch links?

 

[MatrixNexus]

Do you have a link?

Where do you guys find good twitch links?

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky

 

[|RK|]

OMG, Falcon dittos may be one of the hypest matchups in Smash 4.

EDIT: I also wish that people taunted more. Not out of disrespect, of course. But it feeds the hype.

 

[Hippieslayer]

In regards to Mewtwo's recent 2nd/150th placement...impressive yeah. If Mewtwo ate a couple of Big Mac's [weight increase] he'd be freaking devastating. So much range, amazing projectile, 2nd best recovery, a reflector [projectile + reflector combo is great for anyone]. Average speed mobility and attack wise, but he can keep people out and camp as he pleases. I've been trying to incorperate air dodges a lot as opponents get a split second to tell what he's going to do out of it. Not surprised he lost to Falcon, rushdown characters hurt Mewtwo pretty hard. Fox is another bad matchup of note, maybe his worst.

As it stands, mid tier. He's not beating the higher tiers, but he's better than characters like the Marths, Charizard, couple of other low tiers.

Wait what?

 

[Megamang]

So did Gohan not know the matchup, or has everyone been sleeping on Bowser Jr? Because that was ****in brutal.

for anyone not watching the stream posted earlier on this page, Gohan's falcon just went 0-2 against Tweek's (aggressive and scary) falcon Bowser Jr., starting off with a brutal first stock in which Tweek only took damage when he was trading a bair for the stock.

 

[Yonder]

Wait what?

Villager's is the best, if Mewtwo's recovery is not 2nd for sure top 5. Huge amount of distance with confusion, double jump + teleport and shadow ball. Mewtwo always makes it back unless someone gets a well placed spike in.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This isn't a fair comparison. Even though Trela's Mewtwo is 10 days old, Mewtwo himself is literally 10 days old. Every other character in the game is not. No one in the tournament realized Mewtwo can Shadowball off-stage to bait an air dodge and then frame trap a F-air edgeguard kill. Mewtwo's D-Smash is also super safe to do vs ledge get-ups and covers every option except rolling and stalling. Gaining prior knowledge before this was really, really difficult.

If Mewtwo can continue bringing in results after becoming saturated into the competitive scene, then I would say he's proved his worth. Right now this is just a good impression.

I think he mains Mewtwo in Melee though which helps him a bit in that regard.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So did Gohan not know the matchup, or has everyone been sleeping on Bowser Jr? Because that was ****in brutal.

for anyone not watching the stream posted earlier on this page, Gohan's falcon just went 0-2 against Tweek's (aggressive and scary) falcon Bowser Jr., starting off with a brutal first stock in which Tweek only took damage when he was trading a bair for the stock.

Fixed that for you.

And I think people are just sleeping on Bowser Jr. since his kit sends a lot of mixed messages like it can't decide if it wants to be offensive or defensive.

 

[Megamang]

Villager's is the best, if Mewtwo's recovery is not 2nd for sure top 5. Huge amount of distance with confusion, double jump + teleport and shadow ball. Mewtwo always makes it back unless someone gets a well placed spike in.

... all while threatening with a pretty damn strong spike himself.

 

[|RK|]

Villager's is the best, if Mewtwo's recovery is not 2nd for sure top 5. Huge amount of distance with confusion, double jump + teleport and shadow ball. Mewtwo always makes it back unless someone gets a well placed spike in.

Pikachu? High Aura Lucario?

 

[Yonder]

Pikachu? High Aura Lucario?

High Aura Lucario yes, actually too much distance may make him overshoot onto the stage though which equals death. Pikachu's is also good but Mewtwo wins over Pikachu's for sheer distance. You can go as deep as you desire with Mewtwo for edgeguarding with a spike on hand, Pikachu can go very far but does have his limits.

 

[Blobface]

urgh, False is overestimating the speed of Kong Cyclone. It has 26 frames of vulnerability after the last hitbox (including the air and the ground), but he's let several punishment opportunities just slip by.

Edit: for reference purposes, Ganon's fair has 23 frames of landing lag.

 

[Superbat]

Ya im surprised too. I watch False's rush hour stream and I know that he has put in hours of work trying to find counters to the Cyclone. Hopefully the next time they play, False will take it a bit more slowly. Confident that Sheik beats Custom DK.
Dont sleep on ya boy Angel Cortes

 

[Blobface]

Jtails got ruined by Angel, who was running the killing custom up-b. Custom Diddy post patch is a completely different character.

 

[outfoxd]

So uh...he lost, but how about Tweeks Bowjow?

 

[Firefoxx]

Jtails got ruined by Angel, who was running the killing custom up-b. Custom Diddy post patch is a completely different character.

Angel LOVES Rocketbarrel Attack. If I'm not mistaken he's been using it consistently since the first customs on Smash Attack

Also: big Texas tournament has started http://www.twitch.tv/210smash

 

[Piford]

Jtails got ruined by Angel, who was running the killing custom up-b. Custom Diddy post patch is a completely different character.

It's just that his customs make him better since he's a worse character. Before he didn't need extra kill options, but now that might help.

 

[Teshie U]

This isn't a fair comparison. Even though Trela's Mewtwo is 10 days old, Mewtwo himself is literally 10 days old. Every other character in the game is not. No one in the tournament realized Mewtwo can Shadowball off-stage to bait an air dodge and then frame trap a F-air edgeguard kill. Mewtwo's D-Smash is also super safe to do vs ledge get-ups and covers every option except rolling and stalling. Gaining prior knowledge before this was really, really difficult.
If Mewtwo can continue bringing in results after becoming saturated into the competitive scene, then I would say he's proved his worth. Right now this is just a good impression.

No one realizes alot of things until someone like Trela gives em a beating. There were also alot of things Trela didn't realize could be done TO him in certain matchups that he knows very well with his previous characters. So it definitely goes both ways.

In regards to Mewtwo's recent 2nd/150th placement...impressive yeah. If Mewtwo ate a couple of Big Mac's [weight increase] he'd be freaking devastating. So much range, amazing projectile, 2nd best recovery, a reflector [projectile + reflector combo is great for anyone]. Average speed mobility and attack wise, but he can keep people out and camp as he pleases. I've been trying to incorperate air dodges a lot as opponents get a split second to tell what he's going to do out of it. Not surprised he lost to Falcon, rushdown characters hurt Mewtwo pretty hard. Fox is another bad matchup of note, maybe his worst.

As it stands, mid tier. He's not beating the higher tiers, but he's better than characters like the Marths, Charizard, couple of other low tiers.

There aren't many terrible recoveries in this game (magnetic ledges and trumping help alot), but Mewtwo is far from 2nd best. I can think of at least 10 recoveries better.

Falcon's range and power on everything feel like a bigger deal than Fox being all over you while lacking kill setups, but I do agree they are both bad.

I see potential for him vs Ness, Rosalina and Sonic. I think you have to be very good at getting close and abusing his slowish moveset to really shut him down. Ness and Rosa are slow and Sonic isn't going to beat him with his few quick options alone.

 

[|RK|]

I'm sorry, man... I'm trying not to be biased, but Vex's Ganondorf just took out Jtails's Diddy and I am so happy

 

[Blobface]

I'm sorry, man... I'm trying not to be biased, but Vex's Ganondorf just took out Jtails's Diddy and I am so happy

The Gerudo King can't be stopped!

Spoiler

How I feel about the people in the chat that still think Ganon is bad

 

[Shaya]

Ganondorf is definitely not a bad character in this game.
I still rate him as upper mid tier. He just gets so much more out of a single punish/read than every other character bar... maybe just Mii Brawler and Luigi now, imo.

You really don't ever want to be fighting this character in melee range. Nair and Dash attack are game/momentum changing moves from any "poor" situation. You'd be surprised how helpful Ganon's really slow run is when he can basically always act out of his dash normally (shielding/tilts/etc) as the run animation is short.

 

[meleebrawler]

There aren't many terrible recoveries in this game (magnetic ledges and trumping help alot), but Mewtwo is far from 2nd best. I can think of at least 10 recoveries better.

You gotta admit that he has a lot of options in choosing how to recover.

He has that Confusion jump useful for stalling to avoid an edgeguard from one who can't go too far, a teleport
whose horizontal momentum lets him use it from rather far away to grab the edge, he can do a Ness-style recovery
by attacking ledge-standing opponents during his second jump (and unlike Ness, he can cancel his second jump to grab
the ledge with teleport nigh instantaneously), and of course there's Shadow Ball recoil... the only chink in his recovery
is that it's hard for him to recover vertically without his second jump.

So it's not like Villager who can just keep trying no matter how much he's hit, but it's certainly up there in capable hands.

 

[Trifroze]

Ganondorf may be mid tier with customs allowed, but he's also the sort of character that really benefits from player skill. If you're even slightly better than your opponent, you'll do considerably better as Ganondorf because he strives from reads and punishes. If you're the same level with your opponent or slightly worse, it also shows more than if you were worse with a character who has a clear gameplan with bread and butter setups and safe moves.

 

[Balgorxz]

diddy needs his custom upb now to have good kill power it cripples his recovery even more but it's a must if you aren't a lot better than your oponent.

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf may be mid tier with customs allowed, but he's also the sort of character that really benefits from player skill. If you're even slightly better than your opponent, you'll do considerably better as Ganondorf because he strives from reads and punishes. If you're the same level with your opponent or slightly worse, it also shows more than if you were worse with a character who has a clear gameplan with bread and butter setups and safe moves.

Placing Smash 4 Ganondorf in any given tier is always messy. I mean sure, he has some terrible matchups (3-6 customs off, 1-3 customs on, depends on who you ask), but all of those have little asterisks next to them that say "don't screw up ever".

You're correct in saying that he doesn't have anything safe or reliable. It's what prevents him from being top/high tier. When your character operates on risks and gambles, you're going to screw up eventually.

Of course, if he was top tier, he'd be incredibly polarizing and would probably dictate the whole meta. There'd be characters that can keep him out decently and nonviable characters.

 

[Nu~]

Oh my god, DKWill bringing the hype!
Customs are so fun

 

[Superbat]

Dam dkwill still beat false? He made huge improvements in the first game compared to the last set. That second game destroyed his momentum. maybe cyclone donkey kong can beat sheik?
@ Quickhero bad joke My B

 

[Quickhero]

Dam dkwill still beat false? He made huge improvements in the first game compared to the last set. That second game destroyed his momentum. maybe Katrina donkey kong can beat sheik?

KATRINA? Does this look like a hurricane to you?
http://imgur.com/uQFm9wW

 

[Ffamran]

Stupid Luma under the ledge and Rosalina jabbing above the ledge... WHY?! It's even worse than Captain Falcon, Little Mac, and Pikachu jabbing at the ledge because you can't get to the ledge.

 

[Firefoxx]

This "hold A to edgeguard" setup from Dabuz looks super scary

Also: He hasn't dropped a single game so far.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Luma for top tier edgeguarding.

It seems like Dabuz manages to spring some new piece of technology at every other tournament he's in. I wonder if he's keeping anything tucked away for EVO.

 

[Quickhero]

THAT SONIC SD THO.
Sonic just can't keep up with a gorilla spinning around blowing some air.

 

[Superbat]

@ ParanoidDrone He's keeping some major secrets. https://twitter.com/DabuzSensei/status/588934649520390145 Evo 2015 is looking really disgusting right now

 

[Trifroze]

..

Placing Smash 4 Ganondorf in any given tier is always messy. I mean sure, he has some terrible matchups (3-6 customs off, 1-3 customs on, depends on who you ask), but all of those have little asterisks next to them that say "don't screw up ever".

You're correct in saying that he doesn't have anything safe or reliable. It's what prevents him from being top/high tier. When your character operates on risks and gambles, you're going to screw up eventually.

Of course, if he was top tier, he'd be incredibly polarizing and would probably dictate the whole meta. There'd be characters that can keep him out decently and nonviable characters.

Another part of my point was that there are still advantages to his style. He doesn't have anything reliable, but if you're better at reading your opponent than they're at reading you, you have a realistic chance to KO them at 50% or earlier with a single read. Someone like Diddy, Sonic, Sheik or Pikachu etc simply doesn't have any tools to do that no matter how good or many reads they make. That's why I find low KO power characters dull to play. Also, I'll count gimps out since every character has at least decent potential for that, but if we must, I'd put Ganon at least on the level of Sheik and Pikachu on that regard. Uair has a 270 degree arc that semi-spikes, fair has a 180 degree arc, nair lingers forever, bair is one of if not the best ledgetrump bairs in the game now, and dair kills anyone at 5-15%. The rest of his (aforementioned) aerials are all stronger and faster than most kill moves in the game.

...Then again tiers are decided irrelevant of player skill.

 

[Shaya]

I don't even think customs is required for him to compete, although I think wizard drop kick's utility is a really big boon to him.
His customs obviously help, but I feel like it's more him edging himself towards low high tier or the top of upper middle.

Anyway, I'm wondering whether Lucina would be the worst character in the game now. Let's ignore Marth here (he could still be a tier better than her, but the gap is smaller than before thanks to Lucina's widespread damage buffs).

Dancing Blade being back is all sorts of amazing. Fair and down tilt to dancing blade are very clean 20%+ combos that work a lot and force a terrible position onto the opponent. It's transcendent priority, and she's one of only three characters (I'm aware of) with transcended tools as diverse as she has. With slight damage buffs on her down tilt and fair, both notable pokes, she would have slightly more safety on shield with them too, potentially being on parity with Marth's tipper spacing with her own in literal frame safety.

Forward Tilt and Jab having cool down buffs ups her capabilities to wall ever so slightly for sure. That 3 frames off jab could make the dash grab or dash db (I'm thinking its working on Marth so yeah) a lot more accessible as a mid range trap.

We all know Forward Smash is godlike.

All things considered, I think her game plan may now actually have solid and logical "winning" choices; the potential for more rewards from hit confirms, reads or punishes and that dynamic likely being enough to force respect from most opposing characters, something she needed more than everything else.

I guess all in all I'm thinking she will now play much like the passive defensive style that Marth had in Brawl (although later in the game an aggressive style or mikeneko's style were the most potent). Moves which can be safe, can restrict opponent's movements, the snowballing effect of dancing blade for traps and positional domination and perhaps all that's needed to get forward smashes through punishes that likely become more available. (WALKING SUDDENLY BEING USEFUL!)

I genuinely rated Lucina (and Marth) towards bottom of the cast in the last patch, and with everything considered now, I can't say for sure where they lie. A lot of match ups for the characters could in theory and hopefully soon in practicality start looking a lot better than before.