Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

Ironically, the Samus custom that's not represented on the evo sets.

I do wonder though, as someone who plays Samus on the side and in talks with people who do the same, if the Samus boards know something I don't about this move. Because I, and most people I talk to, really do love the move.

The Samus boards didn't express much interest in the move. It's only on there at all because me and NinjaLink protested, and everyone involved agreed that it's a really compelling option. (This is one of the very few cases where we stepped in to modify what the boards produced.)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Ironically, the Samus custom that's not represented on the evo sets.

I do wonder though, as someone who plays Samus on the side and in talks with people who do the same, if the Samus boards know something I don't about this move. Because I, and most people I talk to, really do love the move.

i honestly think that move is so under the radar its not funny. mega bombs sole single trait that makes it soo much better than most of her other customs is the knock back. Aproaching megabomb/ relentless missle set is painfull you won't like it trust me.

@ Thinkaman yeah i really regret not posting on that board then and there cuz honeslty i woulda argued that move be on every set Xd

 

[Saturn_]

Zero just won Come On and Ban #13 with Diddy, and when I think about Diddy's potential nerfs in the upcoming update, my lip trembles and my heart beats fast to think Zero might actually tierwhore away from Diddy to whomever else is best afterwards.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Zero just won Come On and Ban #13 with Diddy, and when I think about Diddy's potential nerfs in the upcoming update, my lip trembles and my heart beats fast to think Zero might actually tier***** away from Diddy to whomever else is best afterwards.

he will just move onto R.O.B with his new tech the BEEP BOP

 

[Z1GMA]

I wouldn't say Ganon vs Mega is bad for Ganon. It might be in Mega's favor, but it's not a terrible matchup. Ganondorf has two burst movement options to punish Megaman if messes around with lemons too much, plus lemons lack of knockback limit their ability to keep Ganon out. Megaman is fairly vulnerable to Ganon's advantage, with two guaranteed followups off of Flame Choke, high gravity allowing for longer combos, and a recovery without a hitbox (customs off), which is a terrible thing to have against Ganon. Most importantly, most everything else Megaman does lacks the safety that Ganon really despises in Villager, Rosalina, Sheik, and ZSS. All of those characters skew Ganon's reward by taking barely any risk and getting almost the same reward as Ganon on hit because they gimp him so hard without customs, and I just don't see that in Megaman. Lemons are pretty safe when Ganon is out, but that doesn't mean anything when you can't keep him out.
@ Z1GMA would probably be the best person to ask about on this though, since he mains both characters.

Speaking of customs Ganon...

It probably won't be a lot of people (especially considering a lot of people that call for knee-jerk bans probably think Ganon is garbage anyway), but someone will do it. Eventually, Ganon is going to shin-shoryuken some poor sap that got too aggressive at <20% into the nether realms and someone will call for it to be banned.

Well, yeah, altough Mega Man isn't as hard as Sheik/Rosa/ZSS for Ganon, he's still hard for Ganon to deal with in top-level play.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Link is really underrated by most people. We have a local Link here that is learning quickly, and this character is just clearly really strong.

Link's "infinite" isn't an infinite at all. Proper (S)DI breaks out pretty reasonably, definitely a major case of videos against training dummies being overblown. What IS a big deal is that Link's jab confirms into pretty much anything, especially against non-floaty characters (like as Rosa I wiggle out of stuff, but even mid-fall speed characters like Sonic just get caught). If Link hits with jab, he can very easily turn it into a smash in most situations. That's fundamentally really strong.

Link's normals are just the best out of any of the sword characters all around. His tilts are all safe on block if he spaces correctly (and remember ftilt is a viable kill move at realistic percentages; he can threaten with a disjointed kill move that can be spaced to be safe). Utilt in particular is a super good move, just protects him in a way that very, very few moves in this game protect any characters. His swing patterns and sword length work together well to make him extremely high priority in effect, tends to easily beat out attacks from the non-sword characters and even does pretty well against other disjoints in this department. If this turns air to air, his ridiculously long tether attack ("zair") comes into play; it just beats stuff. He also hits like a truck; his moves just do so much damage and knockback.

Link's projectiles are great, honestly probably the best set of projectiles in the game outside of the Villager or maybe Mii Gunner. The Boomerang (side-2) is fast and good and leads into stuff, does everything you would ever want it to do really. All the versions of his bow are kinda bad IMO, but it's not awful as an option. Bombs are of course incredible, and he has so many shenanigans with them (our local Link main learned this tech for "soft throws" where he can throw them and have them not blow up; it's really annoying). Between the bombs and the boomerang he can set traps for days, set up for his normals really well, and just give himself insurance in every situation (if he has a bomb in hand or a returning boomerang, he's pretty safe from heavy punishes).

The only really bad things about Link are that his attack speed is kinda bad, his physics are combo bait, and his grab game is poor. The first part is kinda offset but the huge pay-offs from jab and the safety of his disjointed tilts; that turns him into a character who collects heavy reward from mid-speed moves which makes his attack speed behavior very similar to Rosalina (and this is a very good thing). The second part is offset by the implicit protection offered by the boomerang and bombs interrupting stuff; Link actually has ways to mitigate his risks even if he's easy to combo. The third part is what is probably the biggest long term downside; he has a slow and super unsafe on whiff grab that has poor rewards when he hits with it (though he does have all sorts of clever ways to set up for it). Link seemingly has no useful grab combos or chases, and while his uthrow is a passable kill throw, it's not really very special.

I compare him to Toon Link, and he seems obviously better. TL has better mobility in exchange for less range and way less power. This mostly makes Toon Link just annoying; Toon Link runs around annoying his opponents but struggles to finish stocks, and even for what kill moves he has, Toon Link has few ways to set up for them. Toon Link's shorter range means he's a lot more realistic to challenge than Link, and while I think Toon Link attacks somewhat faster than Link, his attack speed is still pretty poor in the grand scheme of the game. Toon Link has the same type of lousy grab, somewhat helped by his killing bthrow but also less range than Link's grab for all the same sloth (and honestly fewer ways to set up to land the thing). Toon Link's projectiles are really cool when you go custom on them (Fire Arrows and Short Fuse Bombs are both massive shenanigans), but I'm not sure they're actually better than the more straightforward and good options of Link. I just can't see giving up just how plain solid Link's pressure and pay-offs are for Toon Link's harassment if I were wanting to pick one or the other. I don't think Toon Link is a truly bad character, but I'd probably tier him as lower mid while Link I'm pretty sure is somewhere in the high tier (he's not top but I'm pretty sure he's high, somewhere between 15th and 20th if I had to guess).

As per the Project M comment, I have no idea as I've never played it very seriously. TL in this game though feels like mostly a worse version of what he was in Brawl, and while he was seriously slept on for the entirety of Brawl, being a worse version of that isn't a great place to be in this game while Link is just plain solid all around in ways that really aren't like Link has ever been before. I believe in Link, but it is true I haven't played a TL on the same level as the Link I've played (or to nearly the quantity) so maybe TL has some hidden virtues I don't know about. Just on the surface, he doesn't make a believer of me while Link has definitely convinced me.

Link's setups from U-throw actually are workable, even though he has no combos from U-throw. Link is strong when he's completely below his opponent, though unfortunately for Link, he also doesn't want to spam this throw at higher percents when he needs it for KOs.

Also, on lightweight characters, you can combo D-throw -> Jab for what it's worth. Usually though it's better to read their jump and try to follow from under them.

If only Link had say...Ike's throws. Then he'd be unquestionably good, but beating Link in this game is as simple as sitting outside of his Jab range and shielding until you condition him into whiffing his risky grab or force him to shield against the threat of a superior dash attack. Hell, giving Link just Ike's side throws would actually make him good because his aerial attacks are actually among the better ones for edgeguarding. I believe both Link and Toon Link are bottom 15, with Link being slightly better due to Jab cancels and better aerials for edgeguards, though it is worth keeping in mind Toon Link has a superior B-throw for KOs.

For comparison, I wouldn't call Ganon amazing, but he beats both Link and Toon Link in this game 55/45. There isn't really much they can do to scare Ganon given neither of them get nearly enough grab reward to discourage Ganon from playing conservatively and forcing them on the defensive with superior midrange options which all convert to Ganon's far superior positive state where he clearly has the advantage in juggle and edgeguard situations overall.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Link's setups from U-throw actually are workable, even though he has no combos from U-throw. Link is strong when he's completely below his opponent, though unfortunately for Link, he also doesn't want to spam this throw at higher percents when he needs it for KOs.

Also, on lightweight characters, you can combo D-throw -> Jab for what it's worth. Usually though it's better to read their jump and try to follow from under them.

If only Link had say...Ike's throws. Then he'd be unquestionably good, but beating Link in this game is as simple as sitting outside of his Jab range and shielding until you condition him into whiffing his risky grab or force him to shield against the threat of a superior dash attack. Hell, giving Link just Ike's side throws would actually make him good because his aerial attacks are actually among the better ones for edgeguarding. I believe both Link and Toon Link are bottom 15, with Link being slightly better due to Jab cancels and better aerials for edgeguards, though it is worth keeping in mind Toon Link has a superior B-throw for KOs.

For comparison, I wouldn't call Ganon amazing, but he beats both Link and Toon Link in this game 55/45. There isn't really much they can do to scare Ganon given neither of them get nearly enough grab reward to discourage Ganon from playing conservatively and forcing them on the defensive with superior midrange options which all convert to Ganon's far superior positive state where he clearly has the advantage in juggle and edgeguard situations overall.

Given that A) Germany is full of high-level Links that actually show the character as incredibly strong and B) you're the guy who said that Mario has never been weaker, I'm just going to say that pretty much everything you're saying about Link is super wrong. Link is definitely not bottom 15; his crazy range, great priority, and stellar projectile/trap game more than makes up for it. Just chill outside his jab range? Okay, his ftilt is huge and safe on block, his Fsmash does insane shield damage and isn't even that unsafe on whiff due to the rekka quality it has, and he's got a huge bag full of projectiles to harass you with. Oh, and getting your shield broken against link can easily mean dying at 50%. Sooner or later, you have to approach him, and when you do, he's got solid range. He's not top tier, and has some difficult matchups against the better characters, but he's not awful by any stretch of the imagination, and definitely not bottom 15. Nair alone qualifies him as better than that - it's got a better hitbox and lasts longer than Luigi's!

 

[HeroMystic]

Ironically, the Samus custom that's not represented on the evo sets.

I do wonder though, as someone who plays Samus on the side and in talks with people who do the same, if the Samus boards know something I don't about this move. Because I, and most people I talk to, really do love the move.

The Samus boards straight up hate the move and prefer slip bomb. As a person who would love to play Samus in tournament it absolutely baffles me that this is the case and Megabomb is so underrepresented, and I know there's quite a few others who felt the same way. Megabomb is her best Down-B custom by far and combined with relentless missiles, it actually makes Samus' gameplan have some semblance of coherence.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Slip bomb is solid. Megabomb is awesome.

I think Samus boards prefer slip bomb because it has a direct effect of disrupting her opponents offense.

But megabomb demands respect. Slip bomb is simply annoying but not scary.

 

[Kofu]

Slip bomb is solid. Megabomb is awesome.

I think Samus boards prefer slip bomb because it has a direct effect of disrupting her opponents offense.

But megabomb demands respect. Slip bomb is simply annoying but not scary.

It's semi-scary offstage since it's a fairly powerful meteor that's safe for Samus to throw out. I'm personally not for dismissing any customs as useless in all situations unless their drawbacks outweigh the positives too much.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I won't speak on behalf of Samus boards, but I think the one big issue with Mega Bomb is how long it takes to actually explode, meaning you can't bomb jump with it and once your opponent clues in it quite possibly will never hit them again.

I personally like the move since it gives Samus a solid option while she's near the top of the screen. Toss a Mega Bomb, watch it fall to the ground, see how the opponent reacts, use their reaction to assure a safe landing. You win some you lose some, but that's sort of what Custom Moves are supposed to influence.

Fingers crossed a future patch makes actually using customs more tournament-friendly. Of course that's a rather bold wish to have.

 

[Cenizas]

I won't speak on behalf of Samus boards, but I think the one big issue with Mega Bomb is how long it takes to actually explode, meaning you can't bomb jump with it and once your opponent clues in it quite possibly will never hit them again.

I personally like the move since it gives Samus a solid option while she's near the top of the screen. Toss a Mega Bomb, watch it fall to the ground, see how the opponent reacts, use their reaction to assure a safe landing. You win some you lose some, but that's sort of what Custom Moves are supposed to influence.

Fingers crossed a future patch makes actually using customs more tournament-friendly. Of course that's a rather bold wish to have.

You actually can bomb jump with Mega Bomb, just no bomb comes out when there's one already on the field.

What I like about Slip Bomb is the ability to edgegaurd with little commitment. I find really hard to go in deep and make it back to the stage when playing Samus. The distance Screw Attack covers is rather meh, and you're usually too far below the lip to use Grapple Beam. Or maybe it's just I feel limited in the recovery department compared to my mains. Anyway, if you're going to go offstage with Samus, you damn well better not waste your double jump or you're dead, end of story. Which is why I appreciate the utility Slip Bomb offers over Mega Bomb. It's also good against recoveries that are predictable but hard to challenge with your aerials, like Peach's Parasol or PK Thunder. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Conda]

Fixed. Commentary is great to enhance a match. Problem is the knowledge for Smash 4 is limited to a small amount of researchers. Plus they keep putting people who don't even play the game on the mic.

Great to see people valuing quality commentary and recognizing its importance.

Zero just won Come On and Ban #13 with Diddy, and when I think about Diddy's potential nerfs in the upcoming update, my lip trembles and my heart beats fast to think Zero might actually tier***** away from Diddy to whomever else is best afterwards.

I'd advise against being such a voiced voice of criticism solely for the sake of it. This post does nothing but voice your voice voicing on how much you feel you must voice your dislike for ZeRo's character choice. Voice that voice elsewhere, like on reddit where that voice belongs.

 

[Luco]

Actually, a customs Samus in general feels significantly more solid to me. Relentless missiles leave lasting projectiles that allow Samus to do other things instead of commiting to every projectile she ever tries to shoot, and in addition to the bomb variants, dense charge shot is just so oddly terrifying in certain MUs as a ledge-pressuring tool in addition to being a land-trapping device.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I want to like Slip Bomb, and I can see its potential (trip vs. ground or meteor vs. air yes please), but the fuse on them is so freaking short. Like, if I drop one on the ground I have to almost immediately do something else or run away or else it'll explode and make me bomb jump. Mega Bomb is easier to grasp at the very least. It's a big-ass bomb (or big ass-bomb if you prefer) that takes longer to blow up but hurts more. Not rocket science. And on a side note, I will be forever disappointed in Sakurai that he did not name it "Power Bomb" instead.

Also on Samus's customs, I really like Turbo Missiles but have to accept the fact that they're kind of bootycheeks as far as I can tell. I don't think they even have a worthwhile damage or knockback buff over default or Relentless.

EDIT: Something I literally just discovered. Mega Bomb's fuse is long enough to cover a full Charge Shot...charge. I mean, someone could still just smack Samus in the face regardless since I don't think it detonates on contact, but it could be a useful deterrent if you just need a bit of space. Maybe.

 

[Blobface]

Hi, my name is "Not-Thinkaman", and I believe that Explosive Blaster, Falco Phase, and Fast Fire Bird are interesting moves that need more testing. I am clearly not promoting Falco.

Seriously though, I would really want to know more about a potential edgeguard tool and an I-frame dash not to mention Fox with Impact/64 Blaster and the exploding Fox Illusion, Samus's Melee Shot, Ganondorf's Warlock Thrust, Wizard's Assault, and Gerudo Dragon thingie, ZSS's Electromagnetic Net, and whatever else there is.

Wizard's assault is a custom obviously intended for FFA's with items. In that case, having the ability to cover ground quickly and simultaneously knock people far away from you would be great to get a master ball or an assist trophy, but it's basically useless in competitive play.

Well, it does have some interesting uses in doubles, like setting up team combos and helping your partner recover, but that's it.

Flame Wave would be good if it was on any other character. Heck it would be great if it occupied another special slot! But losing Flame Choke is just not worth it. It's not even the startup that's a problem, it's the distance covered. You lose a lot of shield pressure to take Flame Wave.

Ray Kalm likes Thrust as an anti-air. That's all I can really say about it. It doesn't exactly replace an essential move.

 

[HeroMystic]

EDIT: Something I literally just discovered. Mega Bomb's fuse is long enough to cover a full Charge Shot...charge. I mean, someone could still just smack Samus in the face regardless since I don't think it detonates on contact, but it could be a useful deterrent if you just need a bit of space. Maybe.

Megabomb + Charged Shot can break a shield.

Relentless Missile or Megabomb kill confirms into Charged Shot.

To note, Megafox low-tier mains Samus and he uses those customs + Dense Charge Shot.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Given that A) Germany is full of high-level Links that actually show the character as incredibly strong and B) you're the guy who said that Mario has never been weaker, I'm just going to say that pretty much everything you're saying about Link is super wrong. Link is definitely not bottom 15; his crazy range, great priority, and stellar projectile/trap game more than makes up for it. Just chill outside his jab range? Okay, his ftilt is huge and safe on block, his Fsmash does insane shield damage and isn't even that unsafe on whiff due to the rekka quality it has, and he's got a huge bag full of projectiles to harass you with. Oh, and getting your shield broken against link can easily mean dying at 50%. Sooner or later, you have to approach him, and when you do, he's got solid range. He's not top tier, and has some difficult matchups against the better characters, but he's not awful by any stretch of the imagination, and definitely not bottom 15. Nair alone qualifies him as better than that - it's got a better hitbox and lasts longer than Luigi's!

I'm not very impressed hearing you state stuff about "high-level Links" from Germany without videos. For that matter, what are you even trying to prove by saying "high-level Links" exist?

Link does not have "crazy range". That's just flat out not even correct. Among the sword users and ignoring frame data, his range is just average on the ground, and noticeably bad in the air unless you use his finicky Z-air, and there's plenty of characters like the heavies who outrange him. Sure, he has the benefit of a disjoint for hitting limbs occasionally, but firstoff, Link unlike most characters in this game does not have a useful Dash Attack. This puts him at a huge disadvantage in neutral, given he can't actually do much in the name of forcing you to shield preemtively. Basically every character in the game has something fast that threatens from outside of Link's sword range that Link has to guess around.

On the ground, sure. He has F-smash, which is okay on shield, but it does not do "crazy shield damage" unless you magically sweetspot both of the strongest hits on shield, a situation which won't happen very often.

Link's F-tilt being safe on block is not impressive for a move that is frame ~16 and doesn't meaningfully outrange his Jab. That prevents it from being terrible, and it's not safe against fast DAs which you failed to mention, disregarding how it doesn't do well in footsies at all due to how slow it is (meaning your opponent will only really get hit by it in neutral for choosing to do something unsafe). Yes, I literally will just chill outside of Link's Jab range because he has nothing except Dashgrab and Bomb toss to hit you with if the only thing you do is walk and powershield his other projectiles.

Link does okay forcing approaches with arrows, one of few projectiles in the game which actually are fast enough to not be terrible in long range neutral (when charged), but that's a very specific range where arrows are good. Link's close range is good partly because it's highly rewarding, but in midrange he suffers at actually getting people to make mistakes when he doesn't move very fast, doesn't have very threatening pokes, and worst of all has a risky and unrewarding grab. And furthermore most characters actually force him to shield preemtively in midrange when he does not have very consistent responses to most blitz approaches and rushdown besides trying to guess and hoping his high reward puts him ahead.

Finally, Link's recovery is pretty bad. It's basically about the same distance as Ganon's recovery ignoring Bomb jump saves, but his aerials are worse for combating edgeguard attempts. Link's recovery by itself almost universally makes his matchups about 5 points worse due to how vulnerable it is, except against like Fox, who still craps on Link pretty hard by design.

Another thing. The bottom ranks of this game are effectively a lower mid tier. Link mostly is just comparatively speaking worse than the majority of the cast when I say he's bottom 15, which is not synonymous for saying he's strictly awful.

Also you have to keep in mind 3DS era pre-patch with vectoring, Mario was really really bad and you basically can't deny this. That's when I most harped on his viability, when he basically didn't even have much of a combo game to make up for all of his still existing weaknesses. For that matter, he's still strictly a watered down Brawl Mario with fewer options, and he has a lot of problematic matchups on default settings against most of the top characters, and even against characters who aren't even considered very strong (most of the disjoint characters including Lucario and G&W have the advantage against him, Ganon and DK beat him solidly). Custom Mario in contrast I will argue is possibly top 3 because his custom moves are in fact that versatile and good and address his main weaknesses.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It's that time of the months folks...

/r/smashbros CUSTOMS ON Voted Tier List​

and...

/r/smashbros CUSTOMS OFF Vote Tier List​

I know everyone LOVES these, but as always I encourage people to make attempts to go in and educate the masses on all the characters and to try and drum up discussion. It'll be interesting to see how it goes this month, last chance before version 1.0.6 comes out too which may actually be very interesting.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I was trying to put something together regarding Customs tier list, and I think post-EVO it would be a neat idea to vote on every specific custom set we have at the moment. That way there's an actual average result regarding customs instead of everyone voting on behalf of a character because customs can maybe do things sometimes, almost. Kinda.

That and I'd like to see a tier list where Diddy isn't S ranked (Re: all his customs suck. Why is he still S with customs on?

) (Yes I'm aware he can still use 1111 in a custom environment. Chill.)

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Popup Banana is actually very legit if we're talking about Diddy's Customs.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Well let's say you had to vote for each Diddy EVO set itself, as opposed to just "Diddy"

1111
1121
1123
1113
1131
1133
1211
3111
1213
1112
3121

How viable is each set?

 

[Thinkaman]

Popup Banana is actually very legit if we're talking about Diddy's Customs.

Battering Banana is okay, but it will get significantly "better" if Diddy's d-throw gets nerfed.

Currently, standard banana gets Diddy a grab while Battering gets him an aerial. The thing is, currently Diddy grabs also give in an aerial(s) in most situations.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

In my experience all of Link's tilts are safe on block, not just ftilt, if Link's spacing is reasonable. Utilt is the really ridiculous one, but ftilt is pretty solid too (dtilt isn't even bad, but our local Link does use it a lot less than the other two mostly because of how great the other two are). Here's how it goes. Link is throwing all kinds of garbage at you, mostly the Boomerang since that move is incredible and if he actually hits with it he can convert that hit into stuff (but even if he doesn't, it makes doing anything against him really obnoxious). That projectile pressure makes the mid-range pretty much hell to hang out in so you try to move in. If you go in jab range, beware as Link's ridiculous jab gives him the world. If you try to space just outside of it, you're still within range of Link's tilts and also his tether grab (not that his grab game is good overall, but he definitely can make use of the range like this). Even if you try to run away and spam projectiles from outside of each Bomb/Boomerang range, that won't really work since Link will block with his passive shield while moving in to Bomb/Boomerang range (it was oddly annoying when our local Link figured out that Link's passive shield shuts down Shooting Star Bit pretty hard, way better frame advantage than conventional shielding). There really isn't a range at which you can stand to negate why Link is a good character.

Link's recovery is also not nearly as exploitable as it seems at first. If Link is vaguely close to the ledge, he just uses the tether. If Link is launched far, he pulls a bomb while recovering which pretty much means you have to gimp him twice to actually kill him. In this game, his up special actually gets enough distance and has a massive enough ledge snap radius that he can mix up the timing a bit. It's certainly possible to gimp Link and I've done it myself many times (his recovery is not really a strength), but overall his recovery is not really a significant weakness.

From what I've seen the characters who do best against Link are the speedy rushdown characters like Sheik or Sonic who can most easily navigate the projectiles and who, conveniently, are the characters best equipped to exploit Link's slow attack start-ups and also Link's combo-friendly physics. He can deal with those MUs though since the speedy rushdown characters tend to have physics that let Link's jab combo easily (should probably check out Pikachu; I know Link gets anything he can imagine if he jabs Sheik, Sonic, or ZSS), and Link in general has a diverse gameplan which insulates him from having MUs that are too bad. I know as Rosalina when I fight Link it feels like an even match-up; he's every bit as good at playing the mid-range footsies game as I am which impresses me a lot since that is the core reason Rosalina is top tier. Rosalina is clearly a better character overall for a few reasons, but there's just no way Link isn't high tier in this game.

 

[Locke 06]

I was trying to put something together regarding Customs tier list, and I think post-EVO it would be a neat idea to vote on every specific custom set we have at the moment. That way there's an actual average result regarding customs instead of everyone voting on behalf of a character because customs can maybe do things sometimes, almost. Kinda.

That and I'd like to see a tier list where Diddy isn't S ranked (Re: all his customs suck. Why is he still S with customs on?

) (Yes I'm aware he can still use 1111 in a custom environment. Chill.)

The issue with this idea is there is no reason to run sets that are clearly suboptimal in MU's, but that doesn't make them bad sets.

We can ask, "how does 1112 (default + skull barrier) mega man do against Captain Falcon?" But it doesn't matter. Nobody* is going skull barrier in that MU.

Spoiler

*Hyperbole alert. While it could be argued that the ability to reflect picked up metal blades and crash bomb explosions make skull barrier better than LS/PB against characters who don't have projectiles... That's not a discussion for this thread

 

[A2ZOMG]

In my experience all of Link's tilts are safe on block, not just ftilt, if Link's spacing is reasonable. Utilt is the really ridiculous one, but ftilt is pretty solid too (dtilt isn't even bad, but our local Link does use it a lot less than the other two mostly because of how great the other two are). Here's how it goes. Link is throwing all kinds of garbage at you, mostly the Boomerang since that move is incredible and if he actually hits with it he can convert that hit into stuff (but even if he doesn't, it makes doing anything against him really obnoxious). That projectile pressure makes the mid-range pretty much hell to hang out in so you try to move in. If you go in jab range, beware as Link's ridiculous jab gives him the world. If you try to space just outside of it, you're still within range of Link's tilts and also his tether grab (not that his grab game is good overall, but he definitely can make use of the range like this). Even if you try to run away and spam projectiles from outside of each Bomb/Boomerang range, that won't really work since Link will block with his passive shield while moving in to Bomb/Boomerang range (it was oddly annoying when our local Link figured out that Link's passive shield shuts down Shooting Star Bit pretty hard, way better frame advantage than conventional shielding). There really isn't a range at which you can stand to negate why Link is a good character.

Link's recovery is also not nearly as exploitable as it seems at first. If Link is vaguely close to the ledge, he just uses the tether. If Link is launched far, he pulls a bomb while recovering which pretty much means you have to gimp him twice to actually kill him. In this game, his up special actually gets enough distance and has a massive enough ledge snap radius that he can mix up the timing a bit. It's certainly possible to gimp Link and I've done it myself many times (his recovery is not really a strength), but overall his recovery is not really a significant weakness.

From what I've seen the characters who do best against Link are the speedy rushdown characters like Sheik or Sonic who can most easily navigate the projectiles and who, conveniently, are the characters best equipped to exploit Link's slow attack start-ups and also Link's combo-friendly physics. He can deal with those MUs though since the speedy rushdown characters tend to have physics that let Link's jab combo easily (should probably check out Pikachu; I know Link gets anything he can imagine if he jabs Sheik, Sonic, or ZSS), and Link in general has a diverse gameplan which insulates him from having MUs that are too bad. I know as Rosalina when I fight Link it feels like an even match-up; he's every bit as good at playing the mid-range footsies game as I am which impresses me a lot since that is the core reason Rosalina is top tier. Rosalina is clearly a better character overall for a few reasons, but there's just no way Link isn't high tier in this game.

Link's U-tilt is definitely not safe on block unless your reaction time is really bad (like, punishable by Ganon D-smash out of shield unsafe potentially). D-tilt is really safe on block but limited by its startup and situational hitbox. F-tilt is semi-safe on block but depends on matchup and heavily on spacing, and it's not wise to whiff it.

Boomerang 2 is cool and all until you factor that it's really unsafe on powershield and also has a lot of startup. Even factoring the trap setups he gets from the return hit on Boomerang 2, it's not something you really want to just throw out in midrange. Which requires you often to have Bombs ready, which again is something that you have a lot less time for when your opponent is not at long range.

The only thing I really care about concerning tether recoveries is that they help you avoid ledge traps, but they do fairly little against aggressive edgeguard attempts that are in range. You can throw a low lingering hitbox to beat most tether recoveries. And Link's exploitable recovery means he takes damage or gets KOed in situations where most other characters are much harder to punish.

Also, as someone who has been practicing a fair bit of Link, I'm not sold that Link goes even against Rosalina. I suspect you're probably not very good at that matchup. Gravitational Pull nullifies arrows and bombs on reaction pretty easily. Rosalina also is a character that has an easy time beating Link's D-air, and Link doesn't have an easy response to Star Bits, D-tilt, DA, and her superior grab game. Her D-air edgeguard is also really strong against Link's predictable recovery, while Link has to guess a lot more to capitalize on Rosalina in contrast. The only good things about this matchup are that Rosalina is really light, and she's a little easier to hit with Z-air being a tall character. However she doesn't care about Link's projectiles, has a better ground game, and can take advantage of his recovery pretty reliably.

 

[Yikarur]

lol @ germany having high level Links. I really have no idea where Cadet got that from.

 

[Ffamran]

This just made me think of something: do Gordos, Crash Bomber... bombs?, and I guess Metal Saw affect tether recovery? I mean, if you slapped a Gordo onto a wall and someone tether recovers, they're probably going to slide up headfirst into that Gordo. As for Metal Saw, I guess they could grab it on the way up.

 

[Blobface]

How do you get Gordo's to stick to walls anyway?

 

[Ffamran]

How do you get Gordo's to stick to walls anyway?

They've got spikes... I don't know, it just happens. @Smooth Criminal probably knows how. You can get them stuck on the ground sometimes and it's kind of funny since people expect them to bounce and it's just lodged in the ground there. Cue tumbleweed and wind effect while the players stand there.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Also, as someone who has been practicing a fair bit of Link, I'm not sold that Link goes even against Rosalina. I suspect you're probably not very good at that matchup. Gravitational Pull nullifies arrows and bombs on reaction pretty easily. Rosalina also is a character that has an easy time beating Link's D-air, and Link doesn't have an easy response to Star Bits, D-tilt, DA, and her superior grab game. Her D-air edgeguard is also really strong against Link's predictable recovery, while Link has to guess a lot more to capitalize on Rosalina in contrast. The only good things about this matchup are that Rosalina is really light, and she's a little easier to hit with Z-air being a tall character. However she doesn't care about Link's projectiles, has a better ground game, and can take advantage of his recovery pretty reliably.

Gravitational Pull kills anything resembling a long range projectile game, but in a midrange fight where Link can easily have all 3 of his projectiles in play at once it's very punishable. (And bombs in particular aren't absorbed, just pulled closer to Rosalina. Where they can still explode and hurt her.) Star Bits have range but lose to shield and have worse startup than fsmash if memory serves.

Also, even though Rosalina has a lot of range on her moves, her disjoints aren't as big as a sword. She relies on Luma for a lot of her extra range, for starters, and she extends her body for a lot of her own attacks like dtilt and bair. So while it's certainly possible for her to outrange a swordsman, she has to be careful pressing buttons or else risk getting hit back before she returns to idle. (Not to mention that Luma has no disjoints whatsoever and can't shield or dodge to boot.)

 

[Teshie U]

Battering Banana is okay, but it will get significantly "better" if Diddy's d-throw gets nerfed.

Currently, standard banana gets Diddy a grab while Battering gets him an aerial. The thing is, currently Diddy grabs also give in an aerial(s) in most situations.

Battering isn't a direct upgrade, but I think the trades it makes are overall much better for Diddy. At lower percents, sure grab almost guarantees an aerial in most situations, but at higher percents where DI away makes landing the kill a bit trickier, banana directly combos into aerials and you can't really DI the banana.

It helps him deal with characters that zone in areas somewhat safe from grabs. Hitting villager/pacman hiding behind their stage controlling specials wont net you a grab (or any follow up at all most of the time), but you will always get your free aerial. Also true for anyone in the air or on the ledge.

Banana sets up aerials on people recovering low (an area diddy doesnt want to go into personally). Its really like giving diddy kong a toonlink bomb. Approaching from above your opponent with a banana can pull them towards you for a free hit. You can get consistent setups without having to deal with trickier trip animations like Luigi and Pacman.

The banana having knockback means it can do things like breaking heavy armor and launching luma. It can even extend juggles (I killed someone off of the top with it once).

Its got alot of utility and ease of use, which is what you want when picking diddy anyway.

 

[David Viran]

Battering isn't a direct upgrade, but I think the trades it makes are overall much better for Diddy. At lower percents, sure grab almost guarantees an aerial in most situations, but at higher percents where DI away makes landing the kill a bit trickier, banana directly combos into aerials and you can't really DI the banana.

It helps him deal with characters that zone in areas somewhat safe from grabs. Hitting villager/pacman hiding behind their stage controlling specials wont net you a grab (or any follow up at all most of the time), but you will always get your free aerial. Also true for anyone in the air or on the ledge.

Banana sets up aerials on people recovering low (an area diddy doesnt want to go into personally). Its really like giving diddy kong a toonlink bomb. Approaching from above your opponent with a banana can pull them towards you for a free hit. You can get consistent setups without having to deal with trickier trip animations like Luigi and Pacman.

The banana having knockback means it can do things like breaking heavy armor and launching luma. It can even extend juggles (I killed someone off of the top with it once).

Its got alot of utility and ease of use, which is what you want when picking diddy anyway.

But he loses like his most reliable set up for fsmash which he can kill pretty early with. His uair kills way later when near the ground too.

 

[Teshie U]

Around 110-120, where dthrow isnt leading to uair and bthrow/fthrow arent killing, the banana is putting them at about full hop height. And the Uair will kill.

Fsmash is nice to get, but its not as crucial as having diverse approach options and pulling zoning characters out of their safe zones.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Link's U-tilt is definitely not safe on block unless your reaction time is really bad (like, punishable by Ganon D-smash out of shield unsafe potentially). D-tilt is really safe on block but limited by its startup and situational hitbox. F-tilt is semi-safe on block but depends on matchup and heavily on spacing, and it's not wise to whiff it.

Boomerang 2 is cool and all until you factor that it's really unsafe on powershield and also has a lot of startup. Even factoring the trap setups he gets from the return hit on Boomerang 2, it's not something you really want to just throw out in midrange. Which requires you often to have Bombs ready, which again is something that you have a lot less time for when your opponent is not at long range.

The only thing I really care about concerning tether recoveries is that they help you avoid ledge traps, but they do fairly little against aggressive edgeguard attempts that are in range. You can throw a low lingering hitbox to beat most tether recoveries. And Link's exploitable recovery means he takes damage or gets KOed in situations where most other characters are much harder to punish.

Also, as someone who has been practicing a fair bit of Link, I'm not sold that Link goes even against Rosalina. I suspect you're probably not very good at that matchup. Gravitational Pull nullifies arrows and bombs on reaction pretty easily. Rosalina also is a character that has an easy time beating Link's D-air, and Link doesn't have an easy response to Star Bits, D-tilt, DA, and her superior grab game. Her D-air edgeguard is also really strong against Link's predictable recovery, while Link has to guess a lot more to capitalize on Rosalina in contrast. The only good things about this matchup are that Rosalina is really light, and she's a little easier to hit with Z-air being a tall character. However she doesn't care about Link's projectiles, has a better ground game, and can take advantage of his recovery pretty reliably.

Link has to space his utilt obviously. Ganon can't dsmash it for among other reasons the fact that he's pushed out of dsmash range. We explored this in training mode; all three of Link's tilts push opponents too far out if spaced to punish directly out of block, and Link has time to spotdodge running grabs (at least from DK who was our test victim; I can't promise that characters with extremely high running speed and huge grab range can't hit it but DK also couldn't dash attack any tilt on block either if Link spaced correctly).

Boomerang's start-up isn't really that long, and Link can control the angle in a way to make the powershield timing inconsistent. Even if you do powershield it, odds are you're too far away to do anything about it; Link isn't throwing a Boomerang against an opponent standing right in front of him.

Tethers snap to the ledge fast. What a lot of people don't get about edge guarding is that it's a question of time moreso than anything else, and most importantly, that time is measured from the moment the initial hit to send the victim off-stage occurs. If you hit Link off-stage softly (so he's close to tether range from the start), he just tethers and, before you can get close to the edge to prevent his recovery, he's already snapped. There's no time to gimp him in those situations. If you launch him far (which also pretty inevitably means launching up, semi-spike angles are super rare in this game), Link has time to pull a bomb before you get close and that adds a lot of layers to the situation. He can throw the bomb at you if you approach at the wrong angles (limiting your gimp opportunities), and he can exploit blowing himself up with the bomb to give himself two up specials (meaning that if you intercept the first he's not done, among other good for Link implications of that). Yeah if Link is just hanging out off-stage not ready for anything and you have a good meteor and you're already above him he's going to die, but actually creating that situation is extremely difficult if the Link player is skilled since the Link player knows that and will be always choosing the course of action to make that maximally difficult.

I don't really know about default Star Bits other than that the move is bad; if I were going to seriously run it against Link, I imagine he'd do what every character does and shield it followed by killing Luma since it's like -1 million on block. I could I suppose sometimes hit with it and do nominal damage with a follow up of "nothing"; man that move sucks why would Rosalina ever not use a custom side special...

That aside, Grav Pull isn't nearly as good here as you think. Yeah it negates arrows which are an unimportant move in this and every other match-up (I'm not sure which Link arrow type is the best to use but I'm quite sure all three are bad). If you Grav Pull bombs, you don't really negate the threat; all you do is pull the bomb toward you which is... kinda what Link wanted anyway? A lot of Link's bombs aren't even used as projectiles directly; he'll just hold them and ftilt (because that's possible in this game) or soft throw them onto the ground to act as a trap. You don't alter the timing of the explosion, and catching Link's bombs was always of fairly minor help in the first place so picking them up after a Grav Pull isn't really accomplishing anything more than other characters could do. Grav Pull can help out against the Boomerang, but Link can be tricky and angle it harshly so you'll miss the absorb and still have to deal with the return. More importantly (much more importantly really), Link's ideal footsies range is a bit too close for Grav Pull to be safe. If you absorb a projectile, Link is going to be poking at you with his sword due to the length of Grav Pull's animation. Even if you have time to block that safe ftilt, Link just killed Luma and you're in 12.5 seconds of unhappy time. If you don't have time to Grav Pull, you're blocking projectiles, and this screws with Luma a lot as it will often hit Luma (which slows him down from being able to follow you) or even worse might kill Luma outright which is your 12.5 seconds of unhappy time.

Rosalina's dash attack, down tilt, and especially grab are all great moves and all, but think about how the basic footsies plays out. Link's sword normals will almost always stuff Rosalina's normals, and challenging them is double dangerous as Rosalina since Luma can easily die out of a failed challenge. If Luma is dead Link walks all over Rosalina's neutral so you have to be really prudent about when and where you challenge stuff. Rosalina does have better frame data than Link (especially with Luma alive; Luma's frame data is really good), she especially can project a threat while mobile better than Link (since she has a good running grab and a good dash attack while Link is poor in both areas), and her juggle game is very effective against Link (you sometimes have to watch for dair, but it's not too hard to deal with). Rosalina's physics also help her escape combos from jab which is a huge help; if Rosalina weren't light and floaty Link would definitely be a counter so it's a good thing she is that way (I can't see how her being light is helping Link here at all). Of course, Rosalina often kinda stalls out on getting kills especially against heavy characters who don't jump much (like Link) whereas Link scores kills so easily by just hitting so hard.

When it all hashes out though, the match-up is just a footsies war. Link's pokes win priority wars, but Rosa's pokes win speed wars. Link gets a bigger direct pay-off from hitting, but Rosa has better follow-ups. Link has a much superior projectile game, but Rosalina can threaten while moving far more effectively. Rosalina can chase Link better than Link can chase Rosalina, but in closer pressure situations, Link has a lot of tools to protect himself (the utilt that hits everywhere, a good conventional nair, bombs) while Rosalina's normals are very bad at "get off me" and Luma dying is a common second penalty to her which is a type of problem Link never has. It's probably a bit easier for Rosalina to do damage, but it's at the same time easier for Link to convert damage already done into kills. Everything in this match-up has two sides and is a trade-off; maybe as the game develops things will change, but based on the game as we understand it now, how is this one not even?

Also, to be clear, I usually beat the local Link main since I'm a stronger player than he is (he's kinda new, only been at it for a few months), but the potential of his character is very obvious to me the more I play against it and the more I see him learn all the great things Link can do.

 

[Pazx]

Well let's say you had to vote for each Diddy EVO set itself, as opposed to just "Diddy"

1111
1121
1123
1113
1131
1133
1211
3111
1213
1112
3121

How viable is each set?

I suggested half of these and I wouldn't give any below a 9 out of 10 (with 1111 being 10/10) except potentially the x2xx sets (only 2 of them) and possibly shocking banana which I'd give an 8. They are all VERY viable and I can go into detail if anyone would like, but they're pretty straight forward.

 

[Project Quarantine]

"Sheik vs Ganon is 90:10" -Some guy the commentator knows

My avatar answers this statement pretty well.

Also, I was just curious, what character has gotten the absolute least tournament representation? I know there's rankings for this, but that can be artificially inflated by unusually high placings I.E. Nairo using Zelda.

In the U.S, probably the miis simply because they have been banned until just recently. Considering the good characters who get a lacks of rep, Wario and Peach. Even Pikachu being top 5 in many people's eyes is underplayed for how good he is imo. Robin, Charizard, Pac-man if you exclude miis probably get the least rep.

 

[Smog Frog]

In the U.S, probably the miis simply because they have been banned until just recently. Considering the good characters who get a lacks of rep, Wario and Peach. Even Pikachu being top 5 in many people's eyes is underplayed for how good he is imo. Robin, Charizard, Pac-man if you exclude miis probably get the least rep.

gets so little rep that you forget to mention .

 

[Nu~]

So people believe that a matchup doesn't go over 30:70 in this game?
Try little Mac vs gunner.

I don't see how little Mac can ever approach against grenade spam.

Not to mention the rest of gunner's disgusting zoning game.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So people believe that a matchup doesn't go over 30:70 in this game?
Try little Mac vs gunner.

I don't see how little Mac can ever approach against grenade spam.

Not to mention the rest of gunner's disgusting zoning game.

yeah i still don't think thats anything over 30:70 at least for now.