Character Competitive Impressions

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Calling it right now: Lucas's usmash is going to be sick. Think about how hard it is for many characters to land. Now we have a huge, long-lasting, incredibly lethal landing trap on a character who seems to have decent movement. It's not going to be stupidly good, probably, but it's going to move from "barely ever useful" in Brawl to "oops you died".

 

[Terotrous]

Calling it right now: Lucas's usmash is going to be sick. Think about how hard it is for many characters to land. Now we have a huge, long-lasting, incredibly lethal landing trap on a character who seems to have decent movement. It's not going to be stupidly good, probably, but it's going to move from "barely ever useful" in Brawl to "oops you died".

It'll eat airdodges, that's for sure, but I'm not really sure what's going to stop you from just drifting away from it. Still seems like it'll need a pretty hard read to me.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm thinking about the potential of Mewtwo's confusion. Do remember that your only option out of tumble is an airdodge or attempting to land (I don't believe you can wiggle out, and I think you can't jump.) If Mewtwo does this to you close to the ground I think that'll lead to some neat things.

But enough about "potential" and more about stuff that's in. I'm pretty sure Soaring Tornado for Doc is going to become even more optimal, based on all the things it covers in most MUs from what I can tell now. I think regular Nado is going to be super important for specific MUs though (in particular where stage control is extra important or when Nado beats a largely used or critical option reliably), but I think Soaring Tornado may actually be the best for reasons beyond the obvious recovery improvements it provides. Just a checklist of what it does
- Kills reliably with 18-19 frames and good hitbox reach.
- Covers platform tech and the entire BF platforms.
- Covers a ton of ledge options
- Great for edgeguarding
- Kills faster than Regular Nado (100 some percent at center stage) meaning near the edge it's even more juiced up.

Oddly enough, like regular Nado, I'm starting to see its use offensively moreso than the noticeable recovery buff it gives.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Link is really underrated by most people. We have a local Link here that is learning quickly, and this character is just clearly really strong.

Link's "infinite" isn't an infinite at all. Proper (S)DI breaks out pretty reasonably, definitely a major case of videos against training dummies being overblown. What IS a big deal is that Link's jab confirms into pretty much anything, especially against non-floaty characters (like as Rosa I wiggle out of stuff, but even mid-fall speed characters like Sonic just get caught). If Link hits with jab, he can very easily turn it into a smash in most situations. That's fundamentally really strong.

Link's normals are just the best out of any of the sword characters all around. His tilts are all safe on block if he spaces correctly (and remember ftilt is a viable kill move at realistic percentages; he can threaten with a disjointed kill move that can be spaced to be safe). Utilt in particular is a super good move, just protects him in a way that very, very few moves in this game protect any characters. His swing patterns and sword length work together well to make him extremely high priority in effect, tends to easily beat out attacks from the non-sword characters and even does pretty well against other disjoints in this department. If this turns air to air, his ridiculously long tether attack ("zair") comes into play; it just beats stuff. He also hits like a truck; his moves just do so much damage and knockback.

Link's projectiles are great, honestly probably the best set of projectiles in the game outside of the Villager or maybe Mii Gunner. The Boomerang (side-2) is fast and good and leads into stuff, does everything you would ever want it to do really. All the versions of his bow are kinda bad IMO, but it's not awful as an option. Bombs are of course incredible, and he has so many shenanigans with them (our local Link main learned this tech for "soft throws" where he can throw them and have them not blow up; it's really annoying). Between the bombs and the boomerang he can set traps for days, set up for his normals really well, and just give himself insurance in every situation (if he has a bomb in hand or a returning boomerang, he's pretty safe from heavy punishes).

The only really bad things about Link are that his attack speed is kinda bad, his physics are combo bait, and his grab game is poor. The first part is kinda offset but the huge pay-offs from jab and the safety of his disjointed tilts; that turns him into a character who collects heavy reward from mid-speed moves which makes his attack speed behavior very similar to Rosalina (and this is a very good thing). The second part is offset by the implicit protection offered by the boomerang and bombs interrupting stuff; Link actually has ways to mitigate his risks even if he's easy to combo. The third part is what is probably the biggest long term downside; he has a slow and super unsafe on whiff grab that has poor rewards when he hits with it (though he does have all sorts of clever ways to set up for it). Link seemingly has no useful grab combos or chases, and while his uthrow is a passable kill throw, it's not really very special.

I compare him to Toon Link, and he seems obviously better. TL has better mobility in exchange for less range and way less power. This mostly makes Toon Link just annoying; Toon Link runs around annoying his opponents but struggles to finish stocks, and even for what kill moves he has, Toon Link has few ways to set up for them. Toon Link's shorter range means he's a lot more realistic to challenge than Link, and while I think Toon Link attacks somewhat faster than Link, his attack speed is still pretty poor in the grand scheme of the game. Toon Link has the same type of lousy grab, somewhat helped by his killing bthrow but also less range than Link's grab for all the same sloth (and honestly fewer ways to set up to land the thing). Toon Link's projectiles are really cool when you go custom on them (Fire Arrows and Short Fuse Bombs are both massive shenanigans), but I'm not sure they're actually better than the more straightforward and good options of Link. I just can't see giving up just how plain solid Link's pressure and pay-offs are for Toon Link's harassment if I were wanting to pick one or the other. I don't think Toon Link is a truly bad character, but I'd probably tier him as lower mid while Link I'm pretty sure is somewhere in the high tier (he's not top but I'm pretty sure he's high, somewhere between 15th and 20th if I had to guess).

As per the Project M comment, I have no idea as I've never played it very seriously. TL in this game though feels like mostly a worse version of what he was in Brawl, and while he was seriously slept on for the entirety of Brawl, being a worse version of that isn't a great place to be in this game while Link is just plain solid all around in ways that really aren't like Link has ever been before. I believe in Link, but it is true I haven't played a TL on the same level as the Link I've played (or to nearly the quantity) so maybe TL has some hidden virtues I don't know about. Just on the surface, he doesn't make a believer of me while Link has definitely convinced me.

Link's recovery might have been buffed but it still is veru gimable, more than most of the cast actually.

But yes Link is solid.

 

[Dark.Pch]

So, Peach can do this too.

Twitter embed below.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

@ Dark.Pch do you know what's happening? Phan7om wanted to know.

He is using QFR but fast falling is it perfect sessions. Notice how you see a lil spark near Peach. That states that the character fastfell. So its's just a quicker version of QFR.

 

[mimgrim]

Bomb isn't a reliable starter for either character. It's a useful move, but your opponent can see bomb in hand, can time what they do around it, and generally will not get hit at point blank by a bomb so one of these combos will happen. Bombs are useful as traps to limit your opponent's options; you almost never can actually force someone to get hit by a bomb directly, especially in situations you might be able to combo into fair (which is pretty much holding it and throwing it at them at point blank). In general all aerials on both characters aren't safe on block if you don't auto-cancel which makes them as a primary kill option limited. In practice, my experience against TLs (not that the local ones are super strong, but they didn't completely suck) is that I tend to live to 150% all the time just by playing carefully. If I'm on the ground, I just have to watch for random smashes which tends to be pretty easy. If he jumps, he'll almost always aim his aerials high on my body (since he's free to OoS punishes if he doesn't) and with his physics this tends to be pretty telegraphed. If I do something unsafe into his shield, I probably don't die for it unless what I did was really stupid or if I'm at a really extreme damage. He air to airs well horizontally but has a useless dair and a uair with a pretty narrow hit area so I just don't jump at him and can practically work my way down if he pops me up into the air. Most of what I've seen of this character on streams is the same. I won't be convinced he doesn't have significant kill move trouble until I see any strong TL actually consistently ending stocks at a pace that isn't Sheik-like.

You do not have to be at point blank range to combo ff of bomb though... he can combo from them at mid range, which is where Tink wants to be anyway.

I would also imagine that Nair is pretty safe on shield since it can cross-up shield.

Also, you shouldn't have to be looking for random Smash in the first place x_x. If your Tink players are throwing out Smash randomly then that makes me doubt how good they are. x_x

All of Tink's players are rather weak players as well, as far as I know there is no strong player using him, which is why I don't like the anecdotal evidence being used when he is being used by a weak player base.

 

[Terotrous]

Even though the act of pulling the bomb signals the next attack, it's still a very fast projectile with little endlag. You can also always ZDrop the bomb and then do an aerial instead, so you're not completely locked into the act of throwing the bomb.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Link's recovery might have been buffed but it still is veru gimable, more than most of the cast actually.

But yes Link is solid.

Link's recovery is mediocre if approached in a straightforward way, but it is pretty decent if the Link uses the tether as often as possible and when launched pulls a bomb as often as possible (this is the biggest disadvantage of Meteor Bombs, though they have other pros).

You do not have to be at point blank range to combo ff of bomb though... he can combo from them at mid range, which is where Tink wants to be anyway.

I would also imagine that Nair is pretty safe on shield since it can cross-up shield.

Also, you shouldn't have to be looking for random Smash in the first place x_x. If your Tink players are throwing out Smash randomly then that makes me doubt how good they are. x_x

All of Tink's players are rather weak players as well, as far as I know there is no strong player using him, which is why I don't like the anecdotal evidence being used when he is being used by a weak player base.

I can't really deny that Toon Link indeed has not been explored at a higher level. I do think you misunderstand me. "Random smash" is not my way of referring to pulling out a pair of dice and mashing the c-stick if you roll snake eyes. I mean smashing at a time you have not particularly set up for it. Like Link will smash most often as a part of some positional trap (created by ledges and his projectiles), as a punish, or as a follow up to jabbing. He can do it on a read to challenge stuff that it will outprioritize, but it's relatively rare with him since you can challenge with tilts and have a lot more safety if you're wrong with Link's tilts beating everything anyway. With higher mobility, Toon Link is better positioned to just run up and do it on a read, TL has a lot worse tilts than Link so the risk-reward of smashing is better in these challenge situations, TL is harder to punish on a smash whiff relatively speaking (still bad to whiff but possible to get away with whereas whiffing a random usmash with Link is going to be punished 100% of the time), and TL's ability to set up smashes seems a lot worse anyway so the raw ones are going to be a greater percentage in that way. Just running up and doing it is what I mean by "random smash" as opposed to "smash you set up for". To some extent, every player who is in any way good "random smashes" by this definition, but of course, if it's one of your primary ways to score kills, you're not going to get away with it at kill percent very much since your opponent will be very conscious that it's something they should be playing around.

As per those combos, I'm certainly interested in how those could work; what would you say are the actual conditions? Are you saying that if Toon Link is at what I would consider an average mid range (let's say the absolute furthest point away from himself Shulk can strike with the Monado with either a grounded normal or a purely vertical short-hop) and is standing still at the start of the maneuver, is TL able to quickly create a combo situation? Has this been tested against just training dummies or against humans who can DI? How does it work relatively versus floaties or versus fast fallers (most combo set-ups in this game work well on only one group)? If he can, that would allow him to whiff punish stuff with this which would actually make my estimations of him perhaps a bit unfairly low (still very big believer in Link). My estimation of this combo was that TL would have to be charging right into you to have time which is really telegraphed (no one will whiff something in TL's face if he's running at them with bomb in hand), but if I'm wrong, that would be interesting. Related, how well does this work with Short-Fuse Bombs? IMO Short-Fuse Bombs are inherently powerful in a lot of ways and seem to be one of the main draws to TL so they would be hard to give up if this combo only works with defaults.

 

[Nobie]

I mentioned this in the Mewtwo forums but it looks like Mewtwo might have a crouch that goes low enough to avoid Pit/Dark Pit's arrows (ignoring the fact that they can change the curvature of the arrow's trajectory).

http://imgur.com/a/znfBp

 

[Ffamran]

I mentioned this in the Mewtwo forums but it looks like Mewtwo might have a crouch that goes low enough to avoid Pit/Dark Pit's arrows (ignoring the fact that they can change the curvature of the arrow's trajectory).

http://imgur.com/a/znfBp

... Look, everyone, if you want to speculate on Mewtwo, Lucas, Wolf, Roy, Pichu, Magic Johnson, or whoever, or the balance patch and how they affect them, then do it in the character boards, specifically their character threads or boards if they have one like Mewtwo and I think Lucas's is being set up.

Still, it doesn't look like he's crouching under that well. If anything, Dark Pit fired his Silver Bow before he landed. After that, no more future stuff. If you want to argue this, talk about it in the Pits and Mewtwo's character boards.

 

[mimgrim]

As per those combos, I'm certainly interested in how those could work; what would you say are the actual conditions? Are you saying that if Toon Link is at what I would consider an average mid range (let's say the absolute furthest point away from himself Shulk can strike with the Monado with either a grounded normal or a purely vertical short-hop) and is standing still at the start of the maneuver, is TL able to quickly create a combo situation? Has this been tested against just training dummies or against humans who can DI? How does it work relatively versus floaties or versus fast fallers (most combo set-ups in this game work well on only one group)? If he can, that would allow him to whiff punish stuff with this which would actually make my estimations of him perhaps a bit unfairly low (still very big believer in Link). My estimation of this combo was that TL would have to be charging right into you to have time which is really telegraphed (no one will whiff something in TL's face if he's running at them with bomb in hand), but if I'm wrong, that would be interesting. Related, how well does this work with Short-Fuse Bombs? IMO Short-Fuse Bombs are inherently powerful in a lot of ways and seem to be one of the main draws to TL so they would be hard to give up if this combo only works with defaults.

Ok so FD training mode, from CPU's start position to yours.

As Toon Link move to the circle in the middle of FD and then position yourself a little to the right in the circle, the bomb should be able to hit from there. From that distance you can throw the bomb and after the bomb is thrown do a little of a run-in and attack with Dash Attack (only at lower percents) or Fair, Nair, or even Bair if RAR'd (Uair might even be possible). Basically the max combo range for bomb is from a soft throw of a bomb. You might be able to get a little further away with a hard throw but that would probably be significantly harder. And it seems to work effectively against all weight and fall speed classes.

I'm not sure about his customs though. Haven't really looked into them. Like I've said before, this is just a cursory glance from me on Tink in smash4 out of curiosity.

And I'm sure there is more to be found if I, or other players, were to go more in deep with him.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Alright so as a heads up, I'm going to say something about Lucas and then immediately get back on topic. The misconception is bugging me: Just so we're clear, Lucas's down throw doesn't bury anyone conventionally. The burying you see is merely a visual effect. When Mega Man leaves his "bury" position in the trailer from Lucas's d-throw, he is in stun. If he was actually buried, he would would leave the ground in a neutral jumping position (and would be able to act).

Back on topic, I think Link and Toon Link are closer to each this time around, with Link having the edge.

Link's superior reach and imo superior projectiles (Gale Boomerang brings opponents to Link while the second custom option functions like Toon Link's Boomerangs, interrupting combos and stumping approaches among other things) are what I believe make him better. Toon Link's aerial mobility is good and bomb -> f-air is a combo most of the cast should revere, but Link has a better ground game (more power and reach in his attacks) and I believe a strong ground game is more important in Smash 4. I will say that Toon Link is slightly better at edgeguarding at the end of the day since bomb -> f-air works so well and it's easier for him to return to the stage, but Link is overall more flexible in that field since his d-air doesn't kill him and his n-air, b-air, and boomerang can gimp.

 

[Smog Frog]

only like 2 posts on

please people try harder

 

[Blobface]

I know we've talked about heavies a lot, but I'm curious, what do people think of Bowser?

Charizard and DK to me seem neutral focused, Ganondorf seems focused on offense, and Dedede seems focused on defense, but I'm not quite sure where Bowser fits in.

only like 2 posts on

please people try harder

I'm theory-crafting hard here, but at a glance, she has crazy good offstage and surprisingly good kill options overall, but, well, we all know what her weakness is. Her performance is probably inversely correlated with the other characters kill power (outside of gimps and the like).

 

[Nabbitnator]

I think he is like an all around character. He has his defensive options, offensive options, and a good neutral.

 

[Blobface]

So Bowser is sort've the "all-around" heavy?

Also, would any DK/Charizard mains agree that Charizard and DK have the best neutral of the heavies and Dedede mains agree that he's the most defensive? I know how Ganondorf plays, but I'm just guessing here otherwise.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So Bowser is sort've the "all-around" heavy?

Also, would any DK/Charizard mains agree that Charizard and DK have the best neutral of the heavies and Dedede mains agree that he's the most defensive? I know how Ganondorf plays, but I'm just guessing here otherwise.

all i can say for sure is that bowser neutral get kicked into over haul with dash slash. but hes still more a all rounder.

 

[Blobface]

Also, calling it right now, someone, somewhere, sometime, is going to ask for Dark Fists to be banned. I just know it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Also, calling it right now, someone, somewhere, sometime, is going to ask for Dark Fists to be banned. I just know it.

Oh geez that would be painfull to actually hear.
like i mean listen to how strange this sounds.
"Ganon Is legitimatly broken and invalidates half the cast with this move"



Mind boggling.

 

[Nobie]

So Bowser is sort've the "all-around" heavy?

Also, would any DK/Charizard mains agree that Charizard and DK have the best neutral of the heavies and Dedede mains agree that he's the most defensive? I know how Ganondorf plays, but I'm just guessing here otherwise.

I don't know if you can call Dedede defensive, because he doesn't really turtle or play reactively. He mainly throws out huge hitboxes in the hopes that they'll just happen to connect with the opponent who's decided to do the wrong thing at the wrong time.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't know if you can call Dedede defensive, because he doesn't really turtle or play reactively. He mainly throws out huge hitboxes in the hopes that they'll just happen to connect with the opponent who's decided to do the wrong thing at the wrong time.

You make him sound so ...terrible. im sure he has options that are not just hope for a mistake.

*I think*

 

[TriTails]

Guys.

Let's talk on how Mega Buster can shut some characters down.

Like, seriously...

VS
VS (Maybe)

How the hell does those characters approach Mega without customs I have no clue. I'd put in but then I remembered crazy F-air with floaty shorthop and Cyclone.

And also, Dedede seem to be a punish character because mobility. Him being defensive seem to suit him more.

Wait, what is defensive means in this game anyway? Sit around in a corner and hoping for them to come and you punish?

 

[dean.]

You make him sound so ...terrible. im sure he has options that are not just hope for a mistake.

*I think*

Sorry, he doesn't.

 

[Nobie]

You make him sound so ...terrible. im sure he has options that are not just hope for a mistake.

*I think*

His game plan SHOULD be terrible, but it works to a certain extent. He's sort of like Ganondorf, in that Dedede's loaded with kill moves, except that his hitboxes are these huge, meaty monstrosities as opposed to Ganondorf's sharp, focused attacks. Just consider how his forward smash works. It is, I believe, the slowest f-smash in the game, but it has this gigantic arc, that can catch people both above and in front of him, has an extra shockwave hitbox at the end that does less damage but can catch an opponent trying to barely get away or is too overeager in punishing, and has a somewhat deceptive IASA frame. It SHOULD be highly punishable, and sometimes it is, but it has enough extremely strong qualities that you don't necessarily want to challenge it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Guys.

Let's talk on how Mega Buster can shut some characters down.

Like, seriously...

VS
VS (Maybe)

How the hell does those characters approach Mega without customs I have no clue. I'd put in but then I remembered crazy F-air with floaty shorthop and Cyclone.

And also, Dedede seem to be a punish character because mobility. Him being defensive seem to suit him more.

Wait, what is defensive means in this game anyway? Sit around in a corner and hoping for them to come and you punish?

luigi vs megaman is almost as pitifull an mu as d3 vs mega.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

D3 is counteroffensive---meaning he is going to be spending a lot of time punishing mistakes. It works well in certain MUs, but only just. Any character that has a domineering neutral and/or zoning game is going to give D3 a ton of **** and make a lot of his strengths moot.

@ TriTails Even with customs on, D3 gets bodied by Megaman for free.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TriTails]

luigi vs megaman is almost as pitifull an mu as d3 vs mega.

Personal experience, but I never get so hopeless against Mega.

May be just me though. Yeah, **** those lemons.

So what is the consenseus of D3 vs Mega? 20:80?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Personal experience, but I never get so hopeless against Mega.

May be just me though. Yeah, **** those lemons.

*Secretly hoping lemons get nerfed next patch because it shuts down a lot of approaches, and even some characters*

So what is the consenseus of D3 vs Mega? 20:80?

i think 30:70 is the lowsest this game gets really but at that point it does not matter all that much.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

So what is the consenseus of D3 vs Mega? 20:80?

More or less, yeah. I personally feel it's going to get to that point since the meta is still nubile and developing, with Mega's tech ceiling bumping up and D3's plateauing after awhile. A more honest assessment is, as Road Death Wheel said, 70:30 in Megaman's favor.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TriTails]

80:20 is pretty possible at this point. If one character really shuts down another character, so the victim absolutely can't do nothing but to pray for a lighting to come down to his opponent's controller, then that could be 80:20.

Okay, so... who else does Mega Man shuts down? I honestly can't see any reason Mega Man is not top tier at this point.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

80:20 is pretty possible at this point. If one character really shuts down another character, so the victim absolutely can't do nothing but to pray for a lighting to come down to his opponent's controller, then that could be 80:20.

Okay, so... who else does Mega Man shuts down? I honestly can't see any reason Mega Man is not top tier at this point.

that sound like 10:90 But i also don't think anyone is that shut down. From my understanding mego still wont like being offstage against de3 and d3 will also live to gud rage percents due to nice survivability and recovery that hard to gimp. It will take some god damn hard work but i don't thinktheres anything where you would rather just put down you controller.

*also it would be a dream in the next patch if gordos reflection percents went to 5%*

 

[Nu~]

80:20 is pretty possible at this point. If one character really shuts down another character, so the victim absolutely can't do nothing but to pray for a lighting to come down to his opponent's controller, then that could be 80:20.

Okay, so... who else does Mega Man shuts down? I honestly can't see any reason Mega Man is not top tier at this point.

I don't think he shuts anyone else down with merely pellets alone.
Everyone else is either fast enough to get through his wall(Meta Knight, Shiek), has tanky projectiles to absorb pellets (Pac-Man) or some special mechanic that ignores them (Bowser. But still...metal blade lol)

Doesn't make them useless, but much less of an annoyance.

Dedede and ganon (not with customs though) are the unfortunate few that lose to A button alone
Correct me if I'm wrong mega mains.

 

[Blobface]

I wouldn't say Ganon vs Mega is bad for Ganon. It might be in Mega's favor, but it's not a terrible matchup. Ganondorf has two burst movement options to punish Megaman if messes around with lemons too much, plus lemons lack of knockback limit their ability to keep Ganon out. Megaman is fairly vulnerable to Ganon's advantage, with two guaranteed followups off of Flame Choke, high gravity allowing for longer combos, and a recovery without a hitbox (customs off), which is a terrible thing to have against Ganon. Most importantly, most everything else Megaman does lacks the safety that Ganon really despises in Villager, Rosalina, Sheik, and ZSS. All of those characters skew Ganon's reward by taking barely any risk and getting almost the same reward as Ganon on hit because they gimp him so hard without customs, and I just don't see that in Megaman. Lemons are pretty safe when Ganon is out, but that doesn't mean anything when you can't keep him out.
@Z1GMA would probably be the best person to ask about on this though, since he mains both characters.

Speaking of customs Ganon...

Oh geez that would be painfull to actually hear.
like i mean listen to how strange this sounds.
"Ganon Is legitimatly broken and invalidates half the cast with this move"



Mind boggling.

It probably won't be a lot of people (especially considering a lot of people that call for knee-jerk bans probably think Ganon is garbage anyway), but someone will do it. Eventually, Ganon is going to shin-shoryuken some poor sap that got too aggressive at <20% into the nether realms and someone will call for it to be banned.

 

[Shaya]

http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash

D3 (Pump) vs Mega Man (Kronos) happening right now... ZeRo commentating.
D3 at this very moment was ... in the lead. Won match #1

 

[TriTails]

But how does Ganon get past the pellets? Without getting punished?

Mega can just spam pellets smartly and Ganon can't really do anything about it.

Sure, Ganon's advantage is bleeping strong, but how he get into that advantage is a question to ponder about.

 

[Locke 06]

Also, calling it right now, someone, somewhere, sometime, is going to ask for Dark Fists to be banned. I just know it.

That's quite an audacious claim.

Spoiler

It's not. Anything that kills remotely early is something people dislike and will "john" about. Have you seen twitch chats? Ew.

I'd put in but then I remembered crazy F-air with floaty shorthop and Cyclone.

Wait, what is defensive means in this game anyway? Sit around in a corner and hoping for them to come and you punish?

I don't see how cyclone and a short ranged floaty FAir help against Mega Man. Cyclone is a high risk/low reward move in neutral with uair, utilt, and dsmash waiting... Luigi can have 8% with no followups, Mega doesn't fear that. Floaty short hop & FAir are decent when you get in, but also loses to RAR BAir/FAir.

Defensive neutral, to me, is the following:

• Ability to force approaches (optional)
• Ability to bait/play footsies (mostly movement, see Zelda/Lucario)
• Ability to challenge approaches without commitment (see jabs)
• Anti-air
• Cross up/roll coverage
• OoS options
• Ability to punish hard to punish moves
• Ability to punish hard
• Inability to be shield poked (shield size relative to your hurtbox size)

Some thoughts on Dedede v AAA Uair/utilt.

Dedede's weight helps a lot as he is not affected by pellets as much as Luigi. This is what makes Falcon tougher than Sonic, and Ganondorf tougher to zone than one would think. Dtilt beats dash grab and does good damage, which is huge as dash grab is Mega's biggest punish tool. Lemons WILL get stale past 2% and gordos will be able to do things (still loses to MB, IS, and normal moves). What makes the matchup hopeless for Dedede, in my opinion, is that Dedede has to commit to everything he does hard in neutral (even jab1) outside of dash grab which loses to pellets, and he cannot afford to get juggled ever. Even edge guarding, since Dedede can't afford to jump and his ledge drop options are very poor, it's either roll or neutral getup. 50-50 read for utilt (or more uairs or grab). Ftilt is still good, and Dedede has range on his moves.

Dedede's still an underplayed character that many Mega Mans don't see. You see what Kronos isn't doing? Up airs.

 

[Nu~]

Well then.
This is what I wanted to see!

Someone finally playing the matchup at least. Even if it isn't fully fleshed out.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash

D3 (Pump) vs Mega Man (Kronos) happening right now... ZeRo commentating.
D3 at this very moment was ... in the lead. Won match #1

what

what was that Megaman doing

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well folks we now know how to play d3, start practicin dem gymnastic air tumbles to nair

 

[Shaya]

Okay.
Back air/nair/multi jumps seemed to be the ticket in the match up for Dedede.
Dtilt scared mega enough to start letting D3 get shield grab punishes on close range pellets.

Back air coming out low allowed him to land and approach.
Nair was stupidly fast/bigger range than expected in punishments or landing/beating pellets too.

Mega off stage got ****ed.

It was customless play though, but perhaps WifiMegaman 70:30s everyone?