Character Competitive Impressions

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

They're only going to nerf Greninja. We've been over this.

Meanwhile, Deddi Knog will get a disjoint on his u-air the height of two Charizards, as well as more power. The purpose of this buff would be to get players to realize that Deddi is OP and they'll stop using him and his win rate will subsequently decrease. Worked with Little Mac except Little Mac got an inverse treatment (nerfed because he kept losing).

 

[Dre89]

What I'm worried about with patches is them patching out tech we discover

That'll hurt the meta more than character tweaks imo

 

[Blobface]

Honestly, don't expect anything drastic. 1.04 was a small patch and this one will be even smaller. That's not to say it won't be significant, but Diddy isn't going to get gutted, Marth isn't going to be overpowered.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

What I'm worried about with patches is them patching out tech we discover

That'll hurt the meta more than character tweaks imo

techs that are not game exploits will stay. anything thats noticably "out there" wil be removed"

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Balance patches are going to happen, but I want us to be discussing Isaac sometime within my lifetime...so drop that vote.

I assume they're going to look at Japan, online performance and internal playtesting. Its kind of funny because as far as I know, Sakurai doesn't really consider customs a thing anyways. So unless EVO changes his mind this'll be based on default performances except for maybe Mii's and Paletuna since they're intentionally included from the get-go. I find it unlikely that customs will be of any real consideration outside of possibly bug fixes. For Glory doesn't allow it, japanese tournaments don't allow them, and Sakurai has them as a side feature.



I do wish there were statistics for their online results to try and extrapolate a train of thought.

If we were to do something like tweak characters' customized special moves, then there'd be no end to it. But with that said, if there are any glaring issues, we may address them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Dragon Rush, Jellyfish, and Pisces were all nerfed in the last balance patch. Sakurai has said before that they do take "hardcore player" feedback into consideration, so it's entirely possible that we could see a few customs get rebalanced as well.

 

[Dre89]

When did they say the patch will hit? On the 28th?

 

[Gunla]

When did they say the patch will hit? On the 28th?

The patch hits the 15th, adding the shop, Mewtwo, and the mentioned balance patch.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Honestly, don't expect anything drastic. 1.04 was a small patch and this one will be even smaller. That's not to say it won't be significant, but Diddy isn't going to get gutted, Marth isn't going to be overpowered.

1.0.3 and 1.0.4 were just quick mentionings on Twitter that took take place 24-48 hours afterward.

This time, the patch has been specifically listed on the Direct, and at least two weeks ahead of time. Expect significant adjustments.

 

[Blobface]

IF YOU N***** dont vote for Wolf then we AINT FRIENDS. inb4 mod rage

I'm going to vote for Peppy Hare.

 

[thehard]

Man, I really love the humor in those character reveal trailers. I had absolutely zero expectations for Lucas to return, what with Ness having his specials as customs and all. Crazy. And a balance patch? All I need is Snake and Smash 4 gets a 100 out of 100.

 

[epicgordan]

Interesting that both Mewtwo AND Lucas will actually be playable. For a while there, I gave up on anybody else other than Mewtwo joining the battle via DLC.

As for other potential candidates, I may have to go to some other websites to piece together what the likely and popular consensus may be for future newcomers. So what do you guys think? Who will you vote for?

I voted on Wolf just because. I opted to avoid characters that already had pretty defined roles (such as Ridley, sadly enough) or were pretty close to impossible (like Ice Climbers) to the bloody unrealistic (Rayman), and as a result, I was pretty stuck in my choices between veteran characters. I feel there are already too many Pokémon characters, and Young Link and Roy were largely redundant, so I went with Wolf instead.

Other decent options? Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Hades, Bandana Dee, Excitebiker, Karate Joe (I won't push for Chorus Kids if Ice Climbers are not going to be possible), and Isaac, I suppose. I may have overlooked a couple other decent options as well, but we'll see.

Interesting too that Lucas' return via DLC may have ultimately killed gematsu as a genuine leak since it was debated between the two, but let's wait and see what Sakurai had to say about the character.

And, this is slightly off-topic, but is Shaq supposed to be some sort of Apirl Fools' Day prank?

 

[Shaya]

Completely social things unrelated to current competitive smash -> Elsewhere or I'll kick you.
(Who you're voting for or how you liked the trailers isn't for here, go mix with speculah scum elsewhere or they'll just start posting here with you)

On the point of balance and ruining the game/whatever.
This game is very accessible. We know this. I'm yet to see the difficulty (on average) for characters on a technical level that would put the efforts they've placed into them thus far be wasted if a noticeable nerf came in. Only highly rated player out there I think that would be screwed by Diddy nerfs right now would be like Mew2King... Everyone else is known for being able to play at least one other character.

In a game of 50 characters where we would hope there is good balance
characters which are "obviously" strong shouldn't really exist. Nerfing them because of this seems pretty clean cut/logical, even if it pisses you off.
"This character has a notable impact on the game's balance, cutting them down a peg will only make the rest of the cast seem more balanced".

We can look at Greninja nerfs and go "well he probably didn't deserve many beyond bug fixes" but this didn't hurt the rest of the game to not make him an obviously strong character.

 

[andimidna]

What do people consider to be Ness's biggest weaknesses?

 

[Antonykun]

All I want is a Swordfighter that feels like I'm not climbing a mountain to win while my opponent is walking down a gentle slope.
...And Maybe a villager that doesn't get laughed at by fast characters.

 

[Kofu]

What do people consider to be Ness's biggest weaknesses?

His recovery.

 

[Nu~]

What do people consider to be Ness's biggest weaknesses?

Linearity
But I'm not sure if it's a flat-out weakness persay

 

[ChronoPenguin]

On the point of balance and ruining the game/whatever.
This game is very accessible. We know this. I've yet to see the difficulty (on average) for characters on a technical level that would put the efforts they've placed into them thus far be wasted if a noticeable nerf came in. Only highly rated player out there I think that would be screwed by Diddy nerfs right now would be like Mew2King... Everyone else is known for being able to play at least one other character.

In a game of 50 characters where we would hope there is good balance
characters which are "obviously" strong shouldn't really exist. Nerfing them because of this seems pretty clean cut/logical, even if it pisses you off.
"This character has a notable impact on the game's balance, cutting them down a peg will only make the rest of the cast seem more balanced".

We can look at Greninja nerfs and go "well he probably didn't deserve many beyond bug fixes" but this didn't hurt the rest of the game to not make him an obviously strong character.

A lot of the memes towards Greninja being nerfed are solely out of him being bug fixed.
It's not uncommon at all for characters who are strong, to remain strong after the nerfs. It's somewhat odd that the stick that a nerf would even require M2k to switch. We can assume his state of mind on his character pick but to be frank Rosalina and Sheik both received adjustments and remained strong characters to this day. This does go to your point that nerfing would be correct move, it's a shame it often gets presumed by the playerbase that it'll often mean a removal from viability.

I think the overall question in relation to this thread is how far the hammer reaches. I have absolutely no doubt of a schism between tournament play and online play in which characters are performing. Cast performance differences between the mass-market and the upper echelon of players can be seen throughout multiple games, even when the upper echelon is being emulated by your average player. We have different perceptions between NA and Japan. Different characters highlighted within public metas. Sakurai has in-game statistic collection, community feedback and a team of some sorts which he'll have to weigh. Frankly I think the only guarantee is Diddy being touched but given Shulk and Ikes buffs were rather unexpected last year and that Little Mac's nerfs ran in contrast to what Sakurai himself stated about the characters performance. Those nerfs did run in line with outcry from some consumers and possibly their internal play testing, but do you really feel that if Macs Jab and Haymaker were not untouched the game would be less "healthy"?

What I've seen of Smash 4 so far is that. He initially stated that he ran characters through a gauntlet of the other members of the cast to assume balance for them. If this is the case as well for Mewtwo and Lucas, then hell he very well may find a change he wants to do in anyone based on how that gauntlet went down.

It's a shame there has been multiple excellent posts on balance throughout this thread but I still do not understand the conclusions of their team.

 

[Shaya]

@ ChronoPenguin
Ike and Shulk were bottom tier in shi-gaming's list.
As is Marth/Lucina/Robin right now. #HashTagFreeMoneyPatchFalchionBoyz

Little Mac didn't really have his strengths nerfed, but his weaknesses made more apparent. It seemed to me like it was a "wifi consolation" thing. Mac shouldn't be recovering anyway kinda 'logic' (if I were to guess) and his jab would be getting escaped out and it's use probably wasn't intended to be 40% damage because you held in during lag.

-

I think Ness' recovery and simplistic play style are the main ones to think of. He has poor mobility specs realistically too (well not poor, more like average, when top characters are mostly all 'best in the game' at mobility).
Doesn't change how good he is at his stuff though. Two grabs + chip damage is all the free combo-food you need to be able to get bthrow kills near the ledge with high rage. Ness' jumps make him very hard to reliably trap in juggles plus a "HOLD SHIELD UNTIL DASH GRAB OPPORTUNITY" is something most characters don't have an answer to (by all the characters who can do this for kills).

But honestly, knowing that a smart player can play Ness smart (Shaky / Fow) is enough to not chalk him up as ROB-syndrome, but we'll see. He's one of those abusive characters I won't be liking to see more of if the top-layer of the game gets adjusted a bit.

 

[thehard]

Sakurai and co.: Balance for FFA and 1v1, take into consideration Japanese and American (at this point I'm inclined to think so) tier lists and feedback (highly-viewed glitch-showcase videos like the Order Tackle one are sure to be noticed), above all make sure character buffs and nerfs don't contribute to a feeling of "homogenization" or loss of uniqueness from individual characters.

Keep in mind the dev team nerfed Sheik and Rosalina, two dominant forces in 1v1 tournament play but underused in FG.

I thought 1.0.4 was very well-aimed so I believe 1.0.6 will be too.

Also, the "nerf Greninja" meme is really really stupid but I know it's mostly perpetuated by kids who know nothing of game design

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't think I ever really took in that their list has all Fire Emblem characters at the bottom. That patch hasn't changed their opinion on Ike it seems so.... more ike buffs?
The 'consolation' nerf is only a shame simply because Sakurai stated Mac was underperforming statistically. Wouldn't have bothered me otherwise, and I know stats are not entirely accurate depictions of a characters state but that has stayed with me. Im almost certain Swordfighter is getting a buff based on both opinions and pessimistically in that Mii costumes aren't as effective sells if no one wants to play Mii's

Is the Namco team still with him or have they since disbanded post-release?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't think I ever really took in that their list has all Fire Emblem characters at the bottom. That patch hasn't changed their opinion on Ike it seems so.... more ike buffs?
The 'consolation' nerf is only a shame simply because Sakurai stated Mac was underperforming statistically. Wouldn't have bothered me otherwise, and I know stats are not entirely accurate depictions of a characters state but that has stayed with me.

Is the Namco team still with him or have they since disbanded post-release?

I hope they're still with Namco, I get the impression they're largely responsible for the so-far-good balance we've had. If only because Sakurai's own track record is spotty in that regard.

 

[Shaya]

Who knows how big this will be. top 5/bottom 5 + Pikachu/Mac/Dedede stuff was last time.
I kinda liked the 10% of the top and 10% of the bottom, but seeing as we've had a lot more time between patches and now, we could be seeing even more adjustments... not sure. Kinda scary to think about.

We could even have engine changes (RAGE TUNED DOWN?) or DI brought back (zomg).
Both of which, with no character changes would have significant impacts (definitely making Diddy worse).

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Does anyone think the balance patch will affect the developing Sm4sh tier list? As in we have to reevaluate everything again before coming up with an official tier list?

 

[Locuan]

We could even have engine changes (RAGE TUNED DOWN?) or DI brought back (zomg).

This is what I'm most interested in knowing. If an engine change does indeed occur, this alone could change a lot of things in Smash 4's meta-game. Although if I'm not mistaken, the trailer did say Character Balance Update or something along those lines.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Does anyone think the balance patch will affect the developing Sm4sh tier list? As in we have to reevaluate everything again before coming up with an official tier list?

I mean, it's trivially obvious that it'll have some kind of effect. But probably not to the extent that we have to throw out everything and start from scratch. They'd have to pull some really crazy **** for that to happen.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Does anyone think the balance patch will affect the developing Sm4sh tier list? As in we have to reevaluate everything again before coming up with an official tier list?

Honestly, this kind of already has to be done since Custom Moves are being incorporated in more and more tournaments.

So, if anything, this will kind of be like a fresh start to me. And I like that.

 

[Ffamran]

Or rage could be individualized which would be difficult as sin to do and balance, but it would tone down certain things like Lucario having both Aura and rage or making Sheik's ability to combo slightly better if she only got ticked off instead of raging at everything.

Does anyone think the balance patch will affect the developing Sm4sh tier list? As in we have to reevaluate everything again before coming up with an official tier list?

It would depend on how much stuff is patched. So, say Fox gains 1% to his Up Smash. Not really that great, right? Now, what if Fox gained increased knockback and 6% on his Up Smash? Yeah, that's probably going to shake things up a bit. Or this: Fox's Up Smash is reduced to a frame 5 move? That's even worse as it makes one of Fox's good kill options faster (by 3 frames).

It'll depend and it might not even affect anyone aside from a select few. So, maybe only Diddy is patched while everyone remains the same. Or maybe everyone gets minor nerfs which leaves the game relatively the same. We're just speculating here, but we can get a good idea by putting scenarios and how they would affect the metagame. The other issue is that there are characters that are still relatively unknown which makes nerfs and buffs vague as it's moves being changed, but we don't know how their metagame changes. Like, we'd all know what would change to Diddy if Dtilt gained startup and Uair had a smaller hitbox, but can anyone tell me what would happen if Bowser's Utilt was stronger? Or if Toon Link's arrows traveled faster?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't mind Rage, but I know many are holding feelings on it. As I've said before I rather shield regen be put under the knife even taking 2 seconds longer to refill would be substantial.

Its hard to do large balance patches, counter productive in practice I'd say usually, as you create so many simultaneous new circumstances at one time. Culling the top and bottom makes more sense.

Changing a characters damage 1%can be fairly significant.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Does anyone think the balance patch will affect the developing Sm4sh tier list? As in we have to reevaluate everything again before coming up with an official tier list?

Hope you dont mind me asking but are you part of the tier list commitee? Cuz then you got work ahead of if so but for the most part everybody here just dabbles in tier list for the most part its not out responsibility to make it.

 

[thehard]

Although if I'm not mistaken, the trailer did say Character Balance Update or something along those lines.

Doesn't really mean anything since

• Various fixes to improve gameplay.

is a given.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Hope you dont mind me asking but are you part of the tier list commitee? Cuz then you got work ahead of if so but for the most part everybody here just dabbles in tier list for the most part its not out responsibility to make it.

No i'm not.

I was just asking out of curiosity.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Doesn't really mean anything since

• Various fixes to improve gameplay.

is a given.

Oh look, we can share Replays now.

 

[Locuan]

Doesn't really mean anything since

• Various fixes to improve gameplay.

is a given.

Welp, I seem to have short term memory loss.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Welp, I seem to have short term memory loss.

mabye you dont.

Oh look, we can share Replays now.

 

[thehard]

It might not have been in the Nintendo Direct, but it's still a given. If not you can all call me stupid

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin with IASA on his Arcfire. Let's go.



It's a lot more difficult to change the speed of moves than at first glance, since the character is moving at the same time as the move is. Look at the Fox Usmash example again: if the move started at Frame 5 instead of Frame 8, that would mean that the hitbox is active before Fox starts flipping. Conversely, making the move start later means Fox has an obvious dead spot in his flip at the beginning, and Sakurai prides himself on keeping moves consistent with animations. Fox could start moving later himself to make it sync up, but that means that when the player clicks Usmash, Fox is either moving in awkward slow motion up to the point the hitbox comes out, or he's not moving at all, and then starts going when the hitbox activates.

The best case scenario is for knockback reductions and IASA removal for nerfs, and the opposite for buffs. Pure speed increases or decreases don't seem like a thing that's going to happen unless extensive model manipulation was done to match up.

tl;dr: Diddy Uair getting "slower" may not happen, but knockback reduction or angle will. Marth Fair IASA may happen, Marth swinging Fair like he's on caffeine will not.

 

[David Viran]

Robin with IASA on his Arcfire. Let's go.



It's a lot more difficult to change the speed of moves than at first glance, since the character is moving at the same time as the move is. Look at the Fox Usmash example again: if the move started at Frame 5 instead of Frame 8, that would mean that the hitbox is active before Fox starts flipping. Conversely, making the move start later means Fox has an obvious dead spot in his flip at the beginning, and Sakurai prides himself on keeping moves consistent with animations. Fox could start moving later himself to make it sync up, but that means that when the player clicks Usmash, Fox is either moving in awkward slow motion up to the point the hitbox comes out, or he's not moving at all, and then starts going when the hitbox activates.

The best case scenario is for knockback reductions and IASA removal for nerfs, and the opposite for buffs. Pure speed increases or decreases don't seem like a thing that's going to happen unless extensive model manipulation was done to match up.

tl;dr: Diddy Uair getting "slower" may not happen, but knockback reduction or angle will. Marth Fair IASA may happen, Marth swinging Fair like he's on caffeine will not.

They could make diddy's uair come out a frame slower. Zss's usmash last patch got nerfed to come out a frame slower.

 

[webbedspace]

Oh look, we can share Replays now.

Don't forget those custom stages... Let the Project M stage ports be unleashed.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I don't think I ever really took in that their list has all Fire Emblem characters at the bottom. That patch hasn't changed their opinion on Ike it seems so.... more ike buffs?

Fire Emblem tier for new Hyrule tier.

I'm glad they apparently look at *someone's* tier list, even if only Japan's. Does Europe have one? Any noticeable aberrations?

As I've said before I rather shield regen be put under the knife even taking 2 seconds longer to refill would be substantial.

You know, I agree. I never thought much about it before you mentioned it awhile back, but it does bother me that shield damage regens so fast.

And I hope they fix the boat glitch on Waka so TOs lose that as a reason to disallow the stage.

 

[Flamecircle]

I hope the patch comes with Mewtwo. That would be ideal, since everyone would rediscover their own character instead of just mewtwo all day.

@ Shaya Are you certain the balancing is based on shi-gaming's list?


I'm very happy about balance patching and new characters. This promises 4 a long competitive life, unless something goes horribly wrong. If they keep using namco's balancing team, I have high hopes.