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Character Competitive Impressions

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Shaya

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I hope the patch comes with Mewtwo. That would be ideal, since everyone would rediscover their own character instead of just mewtwo all day.

@ Shaya Shaya Are you certain the balancing is based on shi-gaming's list?
There's no such thing as coincidence, right?

The first patch we got was uncanny close to nerfing those top 5 in that list (Rosa, Sheik, Yoshi, Greninja, Sonic) while buffing those at the bottom of it (Ganon, Shulk, Ike, Palutena, Olimar).

That tier list came out day 2 of the Japanese 3DS release.
 
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Ffamran

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That's kind of stupid if it's true since it ignores the rest of the world.
 

Shaya

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Or it's more like that's what is being looked at as "Community feedback" on what was a Day Two (how much more do you need to properly comprehend this?) response to the perception of the characters. Ours wouldn't have been any better/much different. The game wasn't out in the rest of the world at the time either.

Maintenance cycle is timely. The feelers in Sakurai's web probably extended a little further this time.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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I hope the patch comes with Mewtwo. That would be ideal, since everyone would rediscover their own character instead of just mewtwo all day.

@ Shaya Shaya Are you certain the balancing is based on shi-gaming's list?


I'm very happy about balance patching and new characters. This promises 4 a long competitive life, unless something goes horribly wrong. If they keep using namco's balancing team, I have high hopes.
This is confirmed happening. The update, including the patch and Mewtwo's data and all that goodness, are coming on the 15th. People who registered both games on Club Nintendo get their free download codes for Mewtwo that day too. Mewtwo becomes available for public purchase on the 28th.
 

ParanoidDrone

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I want to draw some comparisons to Rosalina for a moment.

Rosalina, like Mewtwo, is tall, light, and floaty. She's high tier because she has powerful zoning options through Luma and generally good range + disjoints on a lot of her moves. This suggests to me that even though TLF was a Really Bad Thing(TM) to have in Melee, it's workable in Smash 4 if your actual moveset is good enough.

With that in mind, given that Mewtwo seems to have fully inherited his old Melee moveset, is it reasonable to hope that he will be a functional character and not be doomed to bottom tier again? What would his gameplan be?

(Hopefully this doesn't veer too hard into speculation territory...)
 
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Smog Frog

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Mewtwo looks better than he did in Melee, but I'm not convinced he'll be high tier or anything. He at least doesn't look like he'll be garbage again. I don't see him as being a standout character, but he looks at least usable. Lucas on the other hand looks like a risk to fall into the broken DLC character category. A grounding Dthrow could be very scary if it means guaranteed Usmash setups, and his PK Thunder combos look scary too. He at least looks about as good as Ness if not a bit better.
his dthrow only grounds during execution, it wont ground long enough for usmash
 

Pyr

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Makes sense. A lot of analysis and prep would take more then the (up to) 57 days leading up to the event. 57 assumes a June first release.
 

Ffamran

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Mewtwo's tail is more upright, leading to his hit box being a bit smaller than it was previously.
Which might not matter since it would be disjointed like Charizard's tail and wings. The way SSB4 works, multi-hit moves connect better so, Mewtwo's Nair would be better... @ Shaya Shaya ! I thought we weren't allowed to speculate on characters not in the game/not available to play as yet.
 

FullMoon

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his dthrow only grounds during execution, it wont ground long enough for usmash
It can likely allow him to get a F-Smash in though since it has less start-up than Ness's. So it can still be used as a kill setup at higher percentages I believe. Certainly would make being grabbed by Lucas at the edge really dangerous.
 
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Shaya

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@ Shaya Shaya ! I thought we weren't allowed to speculate on characters not in the game/not available to play as yet.
Ahuh. Look how quickly "when's the patch out/hopefully comes with mewtwo" turns into off-topic discussion I should be handing warnings out for.
Seriously.
Talk about Lucas elsewhere. Mewtwo is passable/bearable but there's a forum dedicated to him too. Specula scumbags everywhere :<
 
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Ultinarok

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Balance patch should provide decent buffs to Zelda, Samus, GW, Marcina, Dedede and Doc with some minor nerfs to Diddy and Sheik and some minor/miscellaneous tweaks to everyone else. Maybe slight buffs for Falco, Kirby, BJ and non-custom Palutena, while nerfing Lightweight a bit so she doesn't become broken with customs.

These are just a few things. As for specifics for these characters, I'm probably not in a place to decisively say things since I'm no expert on these characters and don't know what would help all of them most, but:

-Samus should have a speed/power buff to missiles and better hitboxes/linking on U-Smash, Fair, Dair and DA. Jab should be improved too.
-Zelda needs less LK landing lag, a gravitational effect on S-Smash and U-Smash, better hitboxes on Phantom and a Din's Fire power/range buff while receiving a nerf to FW, because as it stands, she has one god-like ridiculous move and a bunch of unreliable/mediocre ones. Zelda should not have to spam/abuse Up-B to win.
-GW needs more kill power. He should be very strong in damage output and knockback to offset his light weight and risky moves. His smashes should be returned to their Brawl glory and his aerials, particularly fair, should be powered up.
-Marcina just need less landing lag and to be safer on shield. An air speed buff would be excellent too, to offset the loss of SHDF.
-Dedede should not have his gordos be so easy to reflect. Honestly, just make them only bouncable via strong melee attacks and he will become much better since he will be able to force approaches.
-Doc just needs a recovery buff. Its terrible without customs.
-Kirby should have more range, a faster inhale and reduced aerial end lag.
-Falco needs a blaster damage OR speed buff, and maybe a slight mobility buff.
-BJ needs fewer deadzones on his attacks, and a more threatening neutral B (like Greninja's WS) and Down B (make it so it can't be indefinitely pocketed and decrease startup time on it)
-Palutena should have a wider hitbox on DSmash and SSmash, and a wind effect only just past them, not on the tip of the wing. Her tilts could afford to be faster and less punishable.

-Sheik needs a bit of a nerf to Needles at least so she doesn't dominate neutral so easily. Maybe more end lag after use. She should also have a bit more startup on Up-B so she can actually be gimped safely if her opponent's timing is good, as she is way too safe offstage.
-Diddy...hoo hah. His aerials should have some tweaking, as should Monkey Flip. As it stands, he is braindead in execution.

In a perfect world, for me, anyway, I would consider the game pretty balanced after this.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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Ahuh. Look how quickly "when's the patch out/hopefully comes with mewtwo" turns into off-topic discussion I should be handing warnings out for.
Seriously.
Talk about Lucas elsewhere. Mewtwo is passable/bearable but there's a forum dedicated to him too. Specula scumbags everywhere :<
And now I'm worried that my post about Mewtwo being allowed/Lucas not at EVO crossed the line. D:
 

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If the Japanese tier list is anything to go by, Pika's likely to be the best character not to get nerfed. Ike is still criminally underrated by the Japanese. I'm scared to see how good he'd be with customs if he got buffed again.
 

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I'd just like to mention that Nintendo has endorsed this game competitively in America (apex), and that the shi-gaming tier list, which is supposedly what the 1.04 patch was based on, came out well before that. It'd be silly to assume they'll only use japanese feedback this time.
 

Ffamran

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And we're still talking/speculating about the patch... If you want to talk about how the patch will affect a character, go to their social or something. Right now, even though the patch is coming in 14 days, the discussion is still on the current metagame, current cast, and current patch.
 

Ultinarok

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And we're still talking/speculating about the patch... If you want to talk about how the patch will affect a character, go to their social or something. Right now, even though the patch is coming in 14 days, the discussion is still on the current metagame, current cast, and current patch.
Sorry I just figured buff and nerf ideas for entire groups of characters would be relevant, since this patch is effectively going to mix everything up a bit and make our current discussion less important. Once this patch is out, things are going to change, so based on how things currently look, I thought I'd put my two cents in about what I'd like to see from the patch to improve the game's current state. And I'm basing what I want to see on how the game currently is. I don't mean to derail the conversation in any way.

If I had any one specific character I wanted to see buffs/nerfs for, I would definitely go to their thread specifically, but for putting out a full list of changes, I just thought this was the best place.

Isn't Little Mac a good secondary for characters who struggle to get in on very defensive characters (Dorf and Dedede come to mind) or characters who are very defensive and are getting beat by rushdown? Mac does well against Diddy to my knowledge.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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Ok so talking about now, does Little Mac have viability as a secondary of some kind? Are there any characters that he covers the weaknesses of?
I don't know about covering specific matchups, but he may work in an only-works-once sense as a surprise counterpick if you're going to a stage he likes. He just plays so differently from most of the cast that I can imagine, in theory, a player having a hard time mentally shifting gears to deal with him properly. (Super armor on all smashes, F1 jab, counterattack.)

That said if you keep your head and aren't on FD or something I'm not sure if Mac is a difficult opponent or just an annoying one. That recovery is a super exploitable weakness and basically every good character has competent edgeguarding.
 
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mimgrim

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Hrmmm.

I remember seeing quite a few time in this thread of discussion about Link/Tink and which one might be better with usually seeing Link being called better or them being about the same. Why is this?

Tink has better mobility specs, which is a huge deal in Smash, and has a better overall combo game (Uair combos into itself at low percent and then into Uair at mid to mid-high percents, Bombs and combo into anything and give Tink a very easy kill confirm with Bomb > Fair and I'm sure there is other stuff too as I just found this stuff from a cursory look at the character) while Link has more range and an infinite that isn't that super practical to use. Why is Link better or even and why isn't Tink the obviously superior one?

Honestly, if it weren't for Project M I would probably be switching to Tink as my next character but damn he feels so bad compared to how he is in P:M (he is so ****ing floaty in this game). But I honestly think he might belong in the upper portion of the cast in Smash.
 

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Ok so talking about now, does Little Mac have viability as a secondary of some kind? Are there any characters that he covers the weaknesses of?
Mac is a quite legit character. Meta Knight destroys him, and he must avoid Duck Hunt (the stage) and Smashville at all costs. But otherwise, he is a very fine character who can soundly cope with the unique styles of bullcrap that other characters struggle with.

Little Mac's neutral game is all about walking forward and using f-tilt and d-tilt. These moves are, properly spaced, safe on block and advantaged on dodge. F-tilt beats almost all actions that moves ordinarily just clash with, and d-tilt links to all sorts of nonsense on fast-fallers.

If a Mac is running at you, he's an idiot and you can probably feel confident that you will easily win. If a Mac is walking at you, you should probably be afraid.

FD might not even be Mac's best level, since he does despise being juggled. LM likes FD, T&C, or any transforming stage including Castle Siege. Lylat is acceptable, and preferred to Battlefield. Smashville is awful, because he cannot FH to the platform and it can be air-camped against him.

LM up-b is frame 1 invincible bullcrap that can harshly punish any mouth-breather who thinks the solution to LM is simply being above him. He would be the worst character in the game without this move, even if his recovery was great.

D-smash is ledge-guarding cheese. High damage f1 jab is anti-punishment cheese. F2 nair is cheese.

Mac is a really sound secondary choice imo.
 

wm1026

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Little Mac can definetly be used as a secondary. Heck he can be a main too! Although I would say it would be wise to carry a secondary for him. I honestly think Mac is actually low A tier. I know his recovery is **** BUT if played correctly it doesn't even matter. Just took top 10 out of 37 in an online tournament(yes online I know but aren't any locals in my area) streamed by smash studios using only Little Mac, and it was my first tournament. So yes if played correctly I honestly think Mac is tournament viable. (If anyone would like to watch my match, I think I am the first on the stream, I wouldn't reject some pointers. Although not really the place so no big deal if no one does)
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I think Link is really underrated by most people. We have a local Link here that is learning quickly, and this character is just clearly really strong.

Link's "infinite" isn't an infinite at all. Proper (S)DI breaks out pretty reasonably, definitely a major case of videos against training dummies being overblown. What IS a big deal is that Link's jab confirms into pretty much anything, especially against non-floaty characters (like as Rosa I wiggle out of stuff, but even mid-fall speed characters like Sonic just get caught). If Link hits with jab, he can very easily turn it into a smash in most situations. That's fundamentally really strong.

Link's normals are just the best out of any of the sword characters all around. His tilts are all safe on block if he spaces correctly (and remember ftilt is a viable kill move at realistic percentages; he can threaten with a disjointed kill move that can be spaced to be safe). Utilt in particular is a super good move, just protects him in a way that very, very few moves in this game protect any characters. His swing patterns and sword length work together well to make him extremely high priority in effect, tends to easily beat out attacks from the non-sword characters and even does pretty well against other disjoints in this department. If this turns air to air, his ridiculously long tether attack ("zair") comes into play; it just beats stuff. He also hits like a truck; his moves just do so much damage and knockback.

Link's projectiles are great, honestly probably the best set of projectiles in the game outside of the Villager or maybe Mii Gunner. The Boomerang (side-2) is fast and good and leads into stuff, does everything you would ever want it to do really. All the versions of his bow are kinda bad IMO, but it's not awful as an option. Bombs are of course incredible, and he has so many shenanigans with them (our local Link main learned this tech for "soft throws" where he can throw them and have them not blow up; it's really annoying). Between the bombs and the boomerang he can set traps for days, set up for his normals really well, and just give himself insurance in every situation (if he has a bomb in hand or a returning boomerang, he's pretty safe from heavy punishes).

The only really bad things about Link are that his attack speed is kinda bad, his physics are combo bait, and his grab game is poor. The first part is kinda offset but the huge pay-offs from jab and the safety of his disjointed tilts; that turns him into a character who collects heavy reward from mid-speed moves which makes his attack speed behavior very similar to Rosalina (and this is a very good thing). The second part is offset by the implicit protection offered by the boomerang and bombs interrupting stuff; Link actually has ways to mitigate his risks even if he's easy to combo. The third part is what is probably the biggest long term downside; he has a slow and super unsafe on whiff grab that has poor rewards when he hits with it (though he does have all sorts of clever ways to set up for it). Link seemingly has no useful grab combos or chases, and while his uthrow is a passable kill throw, it's not really very special.

I compare him to Toon Link, and he seems obviously better. TL has better mobility in exchange for less range and way less power. This mostly makes Toon Link just annoying; Toon Link runs around annoying his opponents but struggles to finish stocks, and even for what kill moves he has, Toon Link has few ways to set up for them. Toon Link's shorter range means he's a lot more realistic to challenge than Link, and while I think Toon Link attacks somewhat faster than Link, his attack speed is still pretty poor in the grand scheme of the game. Toon Link has the same type of lousy grab, somewhat helped by his killing bthrow but also less range than Link's grab for all the same sloth (and honestly fewer ways to set up to land the thing). Toon Link's projectiles are really cool when you go custom on them (Fire Arrows and Short Fuse Bombs are both massive shenanigans), but I'm not sure they're actually better than the more straightforward and good options of Link. I just can't see giving up just how plain solid Link's pressure and pay-offs are for Toon Link's harassment if I were wanting to pick one or the other. I don't think Toon Link is a truly bad character, but I'd probably tier him as lower mid while Link I'm pretty sure is somewhere in the high tier (he's not top but I'm pretty sure he's high, somewhere between 15th and 20th if I had to guess).

As per the Project M comment, I have no idea as I've never played it very seriously. TL in this game though feels like mostly a worse version of what he was in Brawl, and while he was seriously slept on for the entirety of Brawl, being a worse version of that isn't a great place to be in this game while Link is just plain solid all around in ways that really aren't like Link has ever been before. I believe in Link, but it is true I haven't played a TL on the same level as the Link I've played (or to nearly the quantity) so maybe TL has some hidden virtues I don't know about. Just on the surface, he doesn't make a believer of me while Link has definitely convinced me.
 

Pyr

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Little Mac can definetly be used as a secondary. Heck he can be a main too! Although I would say it would be wise to carry a secondary for him. I honestly think Mac is actually low A tier. I know his recovery is **** BUT if played correctly it doesn't even matter. Just took top 10 out of 37 in an online tournament(yes online I know but aren't any locals in my area) streamed by smash studios using only Little Mac, and it was my first tournament. So yes if played correctly I honestly think Mac is tournament viable. (If anyone would like to watch my match, I think I am the first on the stream, I wouldn't reject some pointers. Although not really the place so no big deal if no one does)
Can't disagree more. Anyone can do well when "played correctly." But Mac loses to a backthrow and a Bair off stage. He losses to a windbox, sometimes outright. He loses to a single mistake. He has a clearly good ground game, but a more then clear air and offstage game. He is very deserving of his low-tier spot in most lists because of this and I can see him never breaking the upper-half of the cast. He's just too flawed.
 

thehard

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If a Mac is running at you, he's an idiot and you can probably feel confident that you will easily win. If a Mac is walking at you, you should probably be afraid.
This!

It's pretty genius design tbh: trotting around like a boxer would is the optimal method of approach for LM.
 

Thinkaman

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LM's safe-on-block-and-dodge tilts makes him uniquely capable of ever avoiding getting grabbed by the ledge if you really choose to prioritize that. (Which he almost always should.)

Someone standing at the ledge? Just... walk up and spam spaced d-tilt. They can't grab you, and they can't stay there.
 
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mimgrim

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I compare him to Toon Link, and he seems obviously better. TL has better mobility in exchange for less range and way less power. This mostly makes Toon Link just annoying; Toon Link runs around annoying his opponents but struggles to finish stocks, and even for what kill moves he has, Toon Link has few ways to set up for them. Toon Link's shorter range means he's a lot more realistic to challenge than Link, and while I think Toon Link attacks somewhat faster than Link, his attack speed is still pretty poor in the grand scheme of the game. Toon Link has the same type of lousy grab, somewhat helped by his killing bthrow but also less range than Link's grab for all the same sloth (and honestly fewer ways to set up to land the thing). Toon Link's projectiles are really cool when you go custom on them (Fire Arrows and Short Fuse Bombs are both massive shenanigans), but I'm not sure they're actually better than the more straightforward and good options of Link. I just can't see giving up just how plain solid Link's pressure and pay-offs are for Toon Link's harassment if I were wanting to pick one or the other. I don't think Toon Link is a truly bad character, but I'd probably tier him as lower mid while Link I'm pretty sure is somewhere in the high tier (he's not top but I'm pretty sure he's high, somewhere between 15th and 20th if I had to guess).
I'm sorry but some of this in inaccurate.

Toon Link doesn't actually have the much trouble killing and has an actual kill confirm with Bomb > Fair (which is a strong kill move when kept fresh). This cannot be overstated enough but what is more is that you can also use Bomb at lower percents for easy combos.

Also, mobility makes up for range, as it becomes an extension of his base range. And he still has disjointed attacks anyway. As for attack speed, that depends on the move you are using. Fair is kinda slow, but you shouldn't be using it outside of killing so you don't make it go stale and ofc Smashes. But he also has Nair, Utilt, Dtilt, Bair, and Jab for some speedy attacks.

He gets true combos and kill confirms from Bombs and he can combo with Utilt. And this was just very tip of the iceberg stuff I was doing in just messing around. I'm sure much more can be find with him as well. He doesn't seem to get many players though....

Gah. Maybe I should give him a go around for a little while. See how bad it will mess with my P:M Tink.[/quote]
 
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Jaxas

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LM's safe-on-block-and-dodge tilts makes him uniquely capable of ever avoiding getting grabbed by the ledge if you really choose to prioritize that. (Which he almost always should.)

Someone standing at the ledge? Just... walk up and spam spaced d-tilt. They can't grab you, and they can't stay there.
If your goal is to spam spaced Dtilt, can't they just perfect shield it the 2nd/3rd/etc time and then dash grab you? Or is it safe on that too? Obviously this just turns into a mixup option, but if it's one where they guess your mixup correctly then you die that's... not good

Edit: OH THANK GOD WE'RE BACK.
No more Shaq...
 
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Thinkaman

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If your goal is to spam spaced Dtilt, can't they just perfect shield it the 2nd/3rd/etc time and then dash grab you? Or is it safe on that too? Obviously this just turns into a mixup option, but if it's one where they guess your mixup correctly then you die that's... not good
Well, first, a dash grab into the stage is a magnitude less bad for LM than a grab at the ledge itself. Second, a mixup that requires a perfect shield (4-frame precision) against a frame-3 move is really unfavorable.

Standing next to the ledge against LM is risky, and only worth considering because it makes Mac f-smashes way higher risk.
 

Smooth Criminal

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I've mentioned this somewhere else on the boards, but I think Mac definitely isn't a slouch when it comes to fighting people at the edge of a stage. The only problem is getting people in a way where they're disadvantaged and in a position where Mac can capitalize in that way.

He can actually cover a lot of options when his opponents are coming onto the stage proper.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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I'm sorry but some of this in inaccurate.

Toon Link doesn't actually have the much trouble killing and has an actual kill confirm with Bomb > Fair (which is a strong kill move when kept fresh). This cannot be overstated enough but what is more is that you can also use Bomb at lower percents for easy combos.

Also, mobility makes up for range, as it becomes an extension of his base range. And he still has disjointed attacks anyway. As for attack speed, that depends on the move you are using. Fair is kinda slow, but you shouldn't be using it outside of killing so you don't make it go stale and ofc Smashes. But he also has Nair, Utilt, Dtilt, Bair, and Jab for some speedy attacks.

He gets true combos and kill confirms from Bombs and he can combo with Utilt. And this was just very tip of the iceberg stuff I was doing in just messing around. I'm sure much more can be find with him as well. He doesn't seem to get many players though....

Gah. Maybe I should give him a go around for a little while. See how bad it will mess with my P:M Tink.
Bomb isn't a reliable starter for either character. It's a useful move, but your opponent can see bomb in hand, can time what they do around it, and generally will not get hit at point blank by a bomb so one of these combos will happen. Bombs are useful as traps to limit your opponent's options; you almost never can actually force someone to get hit by a bomb directly, especially in situations you might be able to combo into fair (which is pretty much holding it and throwing it at them at point blank). In general all aerials on both characters aren't safe on block if you don't auto-cancel which makes them as a primary kill option limited. In practice, my experience against TLs (not that the local ones are super strong, but they didn't completely suck) is that I tend to live to 150% all the time just by playing carefully. If I'm on the ground, I just have to watch for random smashes which tends to be pretty easy. If he jumps, he'll almost always aim his aerials high on my body (since he's free to OoS punishes if he doesn't) and with his physics this tends to be pretty telegraphed. If I do something unsafe into his shield, I probably don't die for it unless what I did was really stupid or if I'm at a really extreme damage. He air to airs well horizontally but has a useless dair and a uair with a pretty narrow hit area so I just don't jump at him and can practically work my way down if he pops me up into the air. Most of what I've seen of this character on streams is the same. I won't be convinced he doesn't have significant kill move trouble until I see any strong TL actually consistently ending stocks at a pace that isn't Sheik-like.

No, those attacks are not speedy. Just look at this game's frame data chart for attack start-ups:

http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU

Toon Link has nothing that hits faster than frame 6, and that's jab/nair. Overall he's faster than Link sure, but compared to a normal character? He's pretty slow, lots of mid-speed moves but a handful of slow ones and not one single fast move. His cooldowns on a lot of moves are honestly pretty good from my experience, but just lacking any truly quick options to get hitboxes out and having such a sluggish grab in particular amounts to a total attack pace that isn't very quick and is easily challenged and beaten by characters who actually are quick. Sheik actually has nine different moves that all hit faster than Toon Link's entire moveset!

I do not find mobility an acceptable substitute for range; when hitboxes challenge hitboxes, mobility is putting your hurtboxes in harm's way while real range does not. Being disjointed isn't a boolean statement; it's a continuous factor with being more disjointed always being better. More range also makes it easier to be safe since you can space your attacks to hit from further away; mobility for that purpose hurls you closer where you'll be easier to punish out of shield. Link's sword is non-trivially longer which makes it better at all of this stuff. Yes Toon Link's mobility is his biggest advantage; he would be bottom 5 if his mobility were equal to Link's and he's passable as he is so it helps a lot. It's not like it just negates the base range though; nothing is a direct substitute for having a longer sword. As it stands it's a trade-off; Link's simple longer sword lets him play a more basic, solid game while Toon Link's mobility lets him harass better.

I don't think TL is horrible, but I am really not sold on the overall value of the character versus the field or versus the extremely underrated older version.
 
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deepseadiva

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Also, mobility makes up for range, as it becomes an extension of his base range.
I see what you're... getting at... but its not the same. Mobility puts your own body in of the space of attacks. Range grants your body less risk when attacking. You literally don't have to stick your neck out when you have actual range.
 
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LostinpinK

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More than balance tweakings, I hope that the patch will hope gameplay improvements to help develop the meta. Diddy Kong could be an interesting character thanks to his banana game, but he's currently the easiest and most efficient character because of what we all know. Making each character deep and interesting should be their goal for the new patch. I'm not against one or two very easy to play characters as long as they are not top tiers. It's frustrating and slows down the development of the rest of the cast.

I'm also a bit disappointed that no word was given about the current ridiculousness of unlocking customs. I would have loved a simple shop where we can buy them with gold.
 
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Antonykun

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Balance patch should provide decent buffs to Zelda, Samus, GW, Marcina, Dedede and Doc with some minor nerfs to Diddy and Sheik and some minor/miscellaneous tweaks to everyone else. Maybe slight buffs for Falco, Kirby, BJ and non-custom Palutena, while nerfing Lightweight a bit so she doesn't become broken with customs.

These are just a few things. As for specifics for these characters, I'm probably not in a place to decisively say things since I'm no expert on these characters and don't know what would help all of them most, but:

-Samus should have a speed/power buff to missiles and better hitboxes/linking on U-Smash, Fair, Dair and DA. Jab should be improved too.
-Zelda needs less LK landing lag, a gravitational effect on S-Smash and U-Smash, better hitboxes on Phantom and a Din's Fire power/range buff while receiving a nerf to FW, because as it stands, she has one god-like ridiculous move and a bunch of unreliable/mediocre ones. Zelda should not have to spam/abuse Up-B to win.
-GW needs more kill power. He should be very strong in damage output and knockback to offset his light weight and risky moves. His smashes should be returned to their Brawl glory and his aerials, particularly fair, should be powered up.
-Marcina just need less landing lag and to be safer on shield. An air speed buff would be excellent too, to offset the loss of SHDF.
-Dedede should not have his gordos be so easy to reflect. Honestly, just make them only bouncable via strong melee attacks and he will become much better since he will be able to force approaches.
-Doc just needs a recovery buff. Its terrible without customs.
-Kirby should have more range, a faster inhale and reduced aerial end lag.
-Falco needs a blaster damage OR speed buff, and maybe a slight mobility buff.
-BJ needs fewer deadzones on his attacks, and a more threatening neutral B (like Greninja's WS) and Down B (make it so it can't be indefinitely pocketed and decrease startup time on it)
-Palutena should have a wider hitbox on DSmash and SSmash, and a wind effect only just past them, not on the tip of the wing. Her tilts could afford to be faster and less punishable.

-Sheik needs a bit of a nerf to Needles at least so she doesn't dominate neutral so easily. Maybe more end lag after use. She should also have a bit more startup on Up-B so she can actually be gimped safely if her opponent's timing is good, as she is way too safe offstage.
-Diddy...hoo hah. His aerials should have some tweaking, as should Monkey Flip. As it stands, he is braindead in execution.

In a perfect world, for me, anyway, I would consider the game pretty balanced after this.
No love for Swordfighter I see.
 

GeneralLedge

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I'm fairly sure nobody thinks Swordfighter exists.

Why anyone would ever want to stay stupid to a matchup's existence is far beyond me. Devils Advocate: This is exactly why the first Mii Sword to enter a tournament won that tournament. It will forever baffle me that a character sweeps a tournament and everyone shrugs and goes about their business like it never happened.

In hindsight, I should be abusing this to win $ right about now. Maybe after I rake in a couple grand someone will clue in. Probably not. ;)
 

Ultinarok

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No love for Swordfighter I see.
I don't play any Miis enough to know what about them needs balancing. I know Brawler has OP customs and Swordfighter has slow, laggy attacks with not enough range/power trade-off, but that's about all I know specifically. So I wouldn't know what they should patch or improve. Besides maybe universally reducing attack lag and boosting recovery?
 

Terotrous

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I've been away for a little while, but hooray for balance changes. April 15th can't get here fast enough.

Also, like everyone else, I totally didn't see Lucas coming. I wonder how good he'll be in Smash 4? Just looking over his moveset, he seems like he has some pretty decent tools for this engine, most notably that Dthrow and his aerials. PK Fire will probably be a bit outclassed by other projectiles though unless it has some solid customs.
 
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