Character Competitive Impressions

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

he will just move onto R.O.B with his new tech the BEEP BOP

He won't, R.O.B. is too slow (movement-wise) and chunky, and his range is poor (Ganondorf's jab reaches farther than R.O.B.'s down smash v__v). I think ZeRo will use Sheik or go back to Fox.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

He won't, R.O.B. is too slow (movement-wise) and chunky, and his range is poor (Ganondorf's jab reaches farther than R.O.B.'s down smash v__v). I think ZeRo will use Sheik or go back to Fox.

it was just a joke friend.

 

[Blobface]

He won't, R.O.B. is too slow (movement-wise) and chunky, and his range is poor (Ganondorf's jab reaches farther than R.O.B.'s down smash v__v). I think ZeRo will use Sheik or go back to Fox.

I personally hope he uses Falcon just for how amazing it would be. Though to be honest, Zero is one of my favorite players to watch period. The speed with which he covers options and forces you into disadvantage is mind-boggling.

Also Ganondorf's jab is fairly long ranged, but the point remains the same.

 

[RonNewcomb]

There really isn't a range at which you can stand to negate why Link is a good character.

It isn't a particular range that Link has trouble with but a state: Link has bad disadvantaged state. Once someone's gotten under his skin he has a hell of a time getting them back out to play his favorite footsies game again. This little sub-thread started with the Toon Link player wondering why Link was better than Tink, but in every tierlist I've ever seen, Tink is consistently a tier above Link. Yes Link is two or three tiers better in Sm4sh than previously, but that just puts him at mid-tier. He isn't top 15 or bottom 15, just mid-20. Going through the top tiers so far, I'd use Link against Rosa, Diddy, Yoshi, and ZSS, but I'd use Toon Link against Sheik, Sonic, the Captain, Pika, and puffballs. To have Link in top 15 means some of those troublesome top-10s have to go.

Regarding the earlier message about range being better than mobility, that's only true as far as attacking is concerned. Mobility has defensive uses, and that helps Tink a lot in what are Link's worser MUs.

 

[Conda]

in every tierlist I've ever seen, Tink is consistently a tier above Link. Yes Link is two or three tiers better in Sm4sh than previously, but that just puts him at mid-tier. .

Please don't cite tier lists for any real reason other than referring to what people's current impressions are. Even the Japanese tier list is super early, made by a group of mere mortals who are just as knowledgeable as us, and not worth citing. Thus citing "every tierlist you've ever seen" means nothing. All you're really saying is "Most people currently think, feel, and guess that Tink is better than Link", which isn't really useful.

People's current 'impressions' could be wrong, especially since both of these characters have barely been seen on tournament streams. Hardly anyone really gives these characters real thought, rendering those tier list sources as even less useful when discussing Tink and Link's competitive merits compared to each other.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It isn't a particular range that Link has trouble with but a state: Link has bad disadvantaged state. Once someone's gotten under his skin he has a hell of a time getting them back out to play his favorite footsies game again. This little sub-thread started with the Toon Link player wondering why Link was better than Tink, but in every tierlist I've ever seen, Tink is consistently a tier above Link. Yes Link is two or three tiers better in Sm4sh than previously, but that just puts him at mid-tier. He isn't top 15 or bottom 15, just mid-20. Going through the top tiers so far, I'd use Link against Rosa, Diddy, Yoshi, and ZSS, but I'd use Toon Link against Sheik, Sonic, the Captain, Pika, and puffballs. To have Link in top 15 means some of those troublesome top-10s have to go.

Regarding the earlier message about range being better than mobility, that's only true as far as attacking is concerned. Mobility has defensive uses, and that helps Tink a lot in what are Link's worser MUs.

TL's disadvantage state is honestly probably slightly worse than Link's. D-air nerf sucks for TL quite a bit. Also one of TL's big problems is unlike Link, none of his aerials are really good for edgeguarding.

Link has to space his utilt obviously. Ganon can't dsmash it for among other reasons the fact that he's pushed out of dsmash range. We explored this in training mode; all three of Link's tilts push opponents too far out if spaced to punish directly out of block, and Link has time to spotdodge running grabs (at least from DK who was our test victim; I can't promise that characters with extremely high running speed and huge grab range can't hit it but DK also couldn't dash attack any tilt on block either if Link spaced correctly).

Boomerang's start-up isn't really that long, and Link can control the angle in a way to make the powershield timing inconsistent. Even if you do powershield it, odds are you're too far away to do anything about it; Link isn't throwing a Boomerang against an opponent standing right in front of him.

Tethers snap to the ledge fast. What a lot of people don't get about edge guarding is that it's a question of time moreso than anything else, and most importantly, that time is measured from the moment the initial hit to send the victim off-stage occurs. If you hit Link off-stage softly (so he's close to tether range from the start), he just tethers and, before you can get close to the edge to prevent his recovery, he's already snapped. There's no time to gimp him in those situations. If you launch him far (which also pretty inevitably means launching up, semi-spike angles are super rare in this game), Link has time to pull a bomb before you get close and that adds a lot of layers to the situation. He can throw the bomb at you if you approach at the wrong angles (limiting your gimp opportunities), and he can exploit blowing himself up with the bomb to give himself two up specials (meaning that if you intercept the first he's not done, among other good for Link implications of that). Yeah if Link is just hanging out off-stage not ready for anything and you have a good meteor and you're already above him he's going to die, but actually creating that situation is extremely difficult if the Link player is skilled since the Link player knows that and will be always choosing the course of action to make that maximally difficult.

I don't really know about default Star Bits other than that the move is bad; if I were going to seriously run it against Link, I imagine he'd do what every character does and shield it followed by killing Luma since it's like -1 million on block. I could I suppose sometimes hit with it and do nominal damage with a follow up of "nothing"; man that move sucks why would Rosalina ever not use a custom side special...

That aside, Grav Pull isn't nearly as good here as you think. Yeah it negates arrows which are an unimportant move in this and every other match-up (I'm not sure which Link arrow type is the best to use but I'm quite sure all three are bad). If you Grav Pull bombs, you don't really negate the threat; all you do is pull the bomb toward you which is... kinda what Link wanted anyway? A lot of Link's bombs aren't even used as projectiles directly; he'll just hold them and ftilt (because that's possible in this game) or soft throw them onto the ground to act as a trap. You don't alter the timing of the explosion, and catching Link's bombs was always of fairly minor help in the first place so picking them up after a Grav Pull isn't really accomplishing anything more than other characters could do. Grav Pull can help out against the Boomerang, but Link can be tricky and angle it harshly so you'll miss the absorb and still have to deal with the return. More importantly (much more importantly really), Link's ideal footsies range is a bit too close for Grav Pull to be safe. If you absorb a projectile, Link is going to be poking at you with his sword due to the length of Grav Pull's animation. Even if you have time to block that safe ftilt, Link just killed Luma and you're in 12.5 seconds of unhappy time. If you don't have time to Grav Pull, you're blocking projectiles, and this screws with Luma a lot as it will often hit Luma (which slows him down from being able to follow you) or even worse might kill Luma outright which is your 12.5 seconds of unhappy time.

Rosalina's dash attack, down tilt, and especially grab are all great moves and all, but think about how the basic footsies plays out. Link's sword normals will almost always stuff Rosalina's normals, and challenging them is double dangerous as Rosalina since Luma can easily die out of a failed challenge. If Luma is dead Link walks all over Rosalina's neutral so you have to be really prudent about when and where you challenge stuff. Rosalina does have better frame data than Link (especially with Luma alive; Luma's frame data is really good), she especially can project a threat while mobile better than Link (since she has a good running grab and a good dash attack while Link is poor in both areas), and her juggle game is very effective against Link (you sometimes have to watch for dair, but it's not too hard to deal with). Rosalina's physics also help her escape combos from jab which is a huge help; if Rosalina weren't light and floaty Link would definitely be a counter so it's a good thing she is that way (I can't see how her being light is helping Link here at all). Of course, Rosalina often kinda stalls out on getting kills especially against heavy characters who don't jump much (like Link) whereas Link scores kills so easily by just hitting so hard.

When it all hashes out though, the match-up is just a footsies war. Link's pokes win priority wars, but Rosa's pokes win speed wars. Link gets a bigger direct pay-off from hitting, but Rosa has better follow-ups. Link has a much superior projectile game, but Rosalina can threaten while moving far more effectively. Rosalina can chase Link better than Link can chase Rosalina, but in closer pressure situations, Link has a lot of tools to protect himself (the utilt that hits everywhere, a good conventional nair, bombs) while Rosalina's normals are very bad at "get off me" and Luma dying is a common second penalty to her which is a type of problem Link never has. It's probably a bit easier for Rosalina to do damage, but it's at the same time easier for Link to convert damage already done into kills. Everything in this match-up has two sides and is a trade-off; maybe as the game develops things will change, but based on the game as we understand it now, how is this one not even?

Also, to be clear, I usually beat the local Link main since I'm a stronger player than he is (he's kinda new, only been at it for a few months), but the potential of his character is very obvious to me the more I play against it and the more I see him learn all the great things Link can do.

"If Link is spaced correctly" is an important point to make, keeping in mind he does not have very strong mobility, and the startup on his tilts is not exactly quick. U-tilt is fast, but you shouldn't be using it in neutral given it's highly punishable on whiff, so even if a max ranged space U-tilt put you out of range of a lot of punishes...why are you even doing it?

Boomerang is what, like nearly a half second startup? I don't get how you say that's not a lot of startup. The only way he'll throw off your powershield timing is if the projectile just misses you completely...and it doesn't exactly travel that quickly anyway, meaning the average competitive player really should powershield it in neutral without a problem. Arrows certainly are hard to powershield, but the Boomerang by far really isn't. Also it doesn't really help Link threaten people in midrange unless he has the time and space to set up the return hit for trap situations.

I've edgeguarded Link with various characters enough times to safely say from experience that tethering instantly is often a way for him to kill himself if you simply are really aggressive about edgeguarding him quickly. I'm really not sure how your experience differs so drastically, especially with Rosalina and her D-air. Yes, I'm aware Link can often make it back to the stage with regular Bomb recovery. That doesn't change that most of Link's matchups are made noticeably worse by the fact he often takes at minimum a lot of damage from being edgeguarded. As Ganon, I know the Link matchup is strictly in my favor simply because any time I get Link offstage, I have way more opportunities to outright kill him than the other way around. And I risk almost nothing just playing extremely patiently until I condition him into taking risks to get past my superior midrange options, and his lack of threatening ones. And Ganondorf isn't exactly considered high tier by most people.

Also if you claim being light helps Rosalina escape Link's Jab combos, you probably aren't factoring that he has Jab -> U-smash. Just in general, because Link's U-smash has a lot of range, it's an attack that Rosalina actually has to respect quite a bit when he's juggling, on top of the fact that a missed DA from Rosalina = free U-smash. The fact she's light also means significantly earlier KOs with U-throw (and U-tilt, which also can be comboed from Jab). Link as a whole definitely benefits from his opposition being lightweight when factoring that his vertical KO options are significantly more reliable than his edgeguards. Though this is less important than Link generally having problems being a threat outside of his Jab range, which Rosalina really doesn't have trouble taking advantage of, on top of her juggles and edgeguards on Link being among the more consistent ones.

To Link's credit, I believe he has a favorable matchup against Captain Falcon, who is a character that primarily excels in long range and close range, coincidentally enough. Captain Falcon in this way plays into Link's strengths constantly, and then Link's massive reward juggling and edgeguarding pulls him ahead. Falcon also happens to be one of few characters that lacks very strong options for beating Link's Up-B recovery, meaning he's forced to kill Link conventionally. But outside of that, I don't see where Link does well against any of the other "good" characters.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Dark Fists is love. I've gotten into the habit of coming in low and holding down until the hitbox comes out. It's been a beautiful option to punish those who stand near the ledge. It also leads to some really goofy animations where Ganon just looks like he super-manned into their face from the ledge without actually touching them.

 

[Blobface]

Dark Fists is love. I've gotten into the habit of coming in low and holding down until the hitbox comes out. It's been a beautiful option to punish those who stand near the ledge. It also leads to some really goofy animations where Ganon just looks like he super-manned into their face from the ledge without actually touching them.

Dark Fists is easily as good as Kong Cyclone. It's not like Kong Cyclone where it's a decent move that covers a lot of things, but it does specific things and it does those amazingly. It's way more than a superior recovery move. You can counter aerial approaches, horizontal aerial combos, everything. Combined with Wizkick, it gives Ganondorf the deadliest disadvantage in the game. You're comboing him all over the stage, but suddenly he plants his foot in your face/shoryukens you into oblivion and you're dead at 50%.

It's also excellent against Diddy, since it both counters Diddy's excellent aerials and turns his best counterpicks (stages with low ceilings), into deadly mistakes since Dark Fists can kill at like 30-50% with a low ceiling.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

I'd like to see more buffs than nerfs this patch. I don't really believe Diddy should be nerfed because he is very dependent on grabs not only for damage but for kills. No grabs= no chance. Also, Sheik is good but definitely not easy to play. The patch could change the game very drastically or just make minor changes, but we'll all know in just eleven days. I really hope muh boy Marth receives some major buffs tho...he needs more approach options and a better combo game. Also, I want the Ken combo to be true once again

I personally hope he uses Falcon just for how amazing it would be. Though to be honest, Zero is one of my favorite players to watch period. The speed with which he covers options and forces you into disadvantage is mind-boggling.

Also Ganondorf's jab is fairly long ranged, but the point remains the same.

Seems like Zero can read peoples' minds...the frame traps he does are insane. He somehow knows if and when somebody is going to air dodge. He is the reason why Falcon is one of my mains in Sm4sh.

 

[TriTails]

*Looks at EVO Luigi's sets*

Now I kinda wished there's 1231... I mean, Burial Header rocks in some MU!

Oh well, at least there's 1211... Floating Missile is basically the superior Missile.

Wait, what is the format? Is it Neutral - Up - Side - Down or Up and Side is swapped? If so I might have miswrited.

 

[Kofu]

It's N-S-U-D, just like how it's listed in the game.

My opinion of Kirby has been growing as of late. He'll always be limited by range and poor mobility, but IIRC he has the best aerial landing data in the game, which allows for easy grabs (which can rack damage if nothing else) and even kill confirms from FAir and DAir. Multiple midair jumps are a good asset to have since it allows you to often escape the lag from airdodging into the ground and gives him a little more freedom with approaching. His specials, while situational, all have reasonable uses. Inhale can grant him some pretty amazing powers in a few matchups, Hammer and Stone (and their variants) are frightening punish (and in Stone's case, edgeguarding) tools, and Final Cutter is an... okay disruption move I guess? I haven't played against Upper Cutter yet but my understanding is that it gives him a great aerial finisher. His tilts are great and his smashes hit hard.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Let's talk about this character. Where is he in your tier lists? Who plays Wario besides Abadango, and why doesn't he get very much rep in the U.S? I think he's around top 20 or 15.

 

[Radical Larry]

I think Link's Quickfire Bow is very underrated for people using his arsenal. I'll give you some reasons as to why it's actually better than both of his other Bow variants.

First off, its quick start up and end lag are crucial, and due to its charging speed and range, you can simply keep spamming them just as fast as Fox's second Neutral Spec. Sure, it does only up to 8% damage, but since it shoots so fast, it can rack up the damage very, very quickly.

Secondly is the fact of reflection; thanks to both its trajectory and its range, reflection will rarely ever be a problem for this attack, as it won't even reach Link at certain ranges if reflected, even in air.

Thirdly is its follow-up ability, and boy, it actually has a great one. This is a great attack to use in the air and thanks to its flinching, you can follow up a lot of attacks in footsies and in the air (just for the latter, however, make sure you have your second jump). It would also give a lot of pressure on your opponent (should they not have reflecting abilities), which leads me to my next thing.

Lastly, the edge-guarding and projectile eating capabilities. To a lesser extent than his Bombs, Link's Quickfire Bow can eat projectiles such as Mario's Fireball and Pikachu's Thunder Jolt, making it very useful in long-ranged battles when your opponent is constantly spamming said attacks. With edge-guarding, it also eats up Ness' recovery and can halt opponents' recoveries as well, giving Link ample time to set up for another attack to gimp his opponents further.

To be honest, I see potential in this move despite its low knockback and damage output.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Check out the latest Shi-G matches, some pretty sick custom usage in them.

This bowser Junior be showing the power of huge mecha koopas and that flying kart thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbITV0v0rkI

And this one too (Rain gets taken out by a sonic/shulk player, the latter game demonstrating the power of custom monado quite nicely: at one point shulk hits with the last hit of jab, a f-tilt, and a forward air while in buster - the damage given being 43 mother****ing percent, then there's the d-throw kill lols):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hjxyos4vI0

 

[Unknownkid]

Check out the latest Shi-G matches, some pretty sick custom usage in them.

This bowser Junior be showing the power of huge mecha koopas and that flying kart thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbITV0v0rkI

And this one too (Rain gets taken out by a sonic/shulk player, the latter game demonstrating the power of custom monado quite nicely: at one point shulk hits with the last hit of jab, a f-tilt, and a forward air while in buster - the damage given being 43 mother****ing percent, then there's the d-throw kill lols):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hjxyos4vI0

Huh? Shi-G are playing with Custom Moves now? I thought they are pretty conservative about that stuff. Interesting... Looks like Rain didn't do any research. He obviously didn't know properties of Burning Spin Dash. For example, he throw needles while the move is active. I hope he is not salty about those two matches.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

My impressions of some characters and where I think they should place (no customs):

Kirby: Slept on. Good punishes, good combos, top tier edge-guarding game, and more. I think around mid.

MK: This guy is good. Amazing kill power, mobility, combos, and edge-guarding. Only lacks range. High-mid or bottom of high.

Toon Link: Better than link IMO. Faster, and a better kill throw. Also high-mid.

Ike: Not good. Too slow, he only has one fast move. So easy to edge-guard. Low tier.

Sheik: Good but overrated, 3rd/4th imo.

King DeDeDe: Apart from his infinite, I don't think he's good. Lower-mid.

 

[Blobface]

Japan picking up customs, and using stages besides FD? That's nice to see

With that said, Japanese Shulk has the silliest death sound I've ever heard.

Let's talk about this character. Where is he in your tier lists? Who plays Wario besides Abadango, and why doesn't he get very much rep in the U.S? I think he's around top 20 or 15.

Wario seems to me a character that does well against all top tiers, but has trouble against sword characters and heavies since they out range him. Maybe Japan doesn't see as many sword characters/heavies?

 

[bc1910]

Wario seems strong in most situations. He has an amazing set of aerials and he can just straight up deny things with Fair weaving and the bike. He does well on most stages, too. Bite alone makes him a very tough MU for characters who lack the proper range and projectile ability to deal with him since it's an amazing command grab. One weakness he has seems to be killing, though. His kill options are just hard to land and easy to punish in most cases, sans the Waft which is stellar but he might only get it once per match. At least he can fall back on F/Bthrow near the ledge I guess. Of the top tiers he seems to excel against aggressive Sheik and Pikachu.

 

[LiteralGrill]

TIME FOR THE /r/smashbros MONTHLY VOTED TIER LIST RESULTS!​

CUSTOMS OFF:

Spoiler

CUSTOMS ON:

Spoiler

Things To Note:

In the customs OFF list Mario, Fox, Olimar, and Pac-Man had a four way tie.

Also the customs OFF tier list has LESS spaces between tiers and the customs ON tier list need larger amounts in each split. This seems to imply the average player thinks customs OFF game are better balanced.

Well guys... Have it it at always!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Those lists are just confirming what we all already know

Public opinion is dumb and should be ignored. I mean, just LOOK at Ike's position in both lists, particularly the customs one... and how can custom DK be so low, how on earth is Mii Gunner at the bottom.... and... and... and... *headexplodes*

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Those lists are just confirming what we all already know

Public opinion is dumb and should be ignored. I mean, just LOOK at Ike's position in both lists, particularly the customs one... and how can custom DK be so low, how on earth is Mii Gunner at the bottom.... and... and... and... *headexplodes*

On that note, with a balance patch and new character coming in a few days, a lot of this will become irrelevant regardless of its validity.

 

[warionumbah2]

Community lists will always be jacked up.

 

[wm1026]

The customs on list is just laughable really. I mean little Mac as the second worst character in the entire game? I mean come on guys really?? Not to mention both charizard and Ike that low too? Just no..

 

[Winnnn _AKA_Walt Piffney]

Sort of new to the competitive scene but I'm wondering what everyone's opinions are. Who are the best rushdown characters in your opinion and why?

I play zzs and pikachu currently and they both can apply pressure when needed. I feel like pikachu more so and zzs on less experienced players. I'd assume sanic and diddy would be on the list (I could be wrong) but I'm not interested in using either of them lol.

Personal anecdote. I played a greninja online the first day I got this game... and that was the most one sided smash match I ever had. His name was Purp god or something like that if it was one of you guys. Not saying that means greninja is an offensive character. Could've just meant he was way better (he was) and the skill gap was too wide. In the meantime I'm gonna fool around with shulk this Nair is ridiculous lol

 

[Lavani]

Apparently Ike drops a tier with customs on.

 

[AnchorTea]

You have much better luck posting at other character threads:
http://smashboards.com/forums/wii-u-3ds-character-discussion.291/

 

[FullMoon]

How does Greninja drop with customs on wtf.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

LOL at Pac-Man dropping two tiers with customs.

They need to get Slampoline'd.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I find it interesting that a custom tier list has been made when Evo hasn't even happened yet - there's been no large tournament to display all the characters functioning with customs against top level players and in many different matchups. Sure, KTAR and all of that, but it isn't a big thing that a ton of people have gone to, unlike Evo. A lot of people arguing about certain character's placements on the list should say something too. I don't think we should be taking this list that seriously.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It may be more accurate to call them "community character impressions." A "tier list" implies a certain official-ness that these...lack.

 

[OmegaSorin]

Marth drops with Customs...despite the fact his Customs make him extremely hard to defeat...How amusing is that.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

As always, these community "tier lists" are bonkers

 

[Piford]

Those tier list are so bad, especially when comparing them. Some of the differences just make no sense.

 

[Firefoxx]

I get that people are scared of the customs Villager boogieman (S tier lol) but where in the world did all that respect for vanilla Villager come from?

 

[bc1910]

I get that people are scared of the customs Villager boogieman (S tier lol) but where in the world did all that respect for vanilla Villager come from?

For Glory, I'd wager. In lag, vanilla Villager has a pretty easy time camping the ledge and throwing out Lloids and Fairs because powershielding is so much harder. You can plant a tree near the ledge and threaten with the powerful and deceptively fast tree-sprouting hitbox, as well. So his perceived strengths are probably skewed in favour of online matches. I do think Villager is good in the customs off meta, though.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I think there may be a disconnect between the voters and the results, specifically how the votes are processed.

At least one person on the reddit topic said "Mii Swordfighter with customs sits about mid-low". The results? Last place again.

I can only conclude that people aren't giving characters like Mii Sword a low grade out of understanding, but because a big train of people confirm the character that won his only tournament is really bad because others say he's really bad. Voters are unenthusiastic about the character by popularity, but not by viability. So why is he being voted so lowly? Are people thinking he's "mid-low" giving him a 4/10 because it's "mid-low" on the number scale, but the overall average puts everyone else between 5 and 10 points?

Can we get a chart of some of these by number of voters per numerical vote? I'm deeply perplexed why the only people who ever talk about Mii Sword continuously say he's not the worst character in the game, with no objections otherwise, and yet he's constantly slept on and thrown down a hole in spite of someone winning a tournament with him. Heck I've seen this topic do it too; someone mentions Mii Sword is super good at something, everyone ignores them.

That aside, can someone put together a chart based on number of tournament wins per character? That'd be nice too.

 

[Blobface]

All I have to say is that this list says customs on is less balanced. That's all that needs to be said about it's credibility.

I'm sure that at least one person who voted on this thinks wave dashing should be added to smash 4 because it "adds more movement options" while simultaneously saying Kong Cyclone is broken because it "gives too many movement options". I hate to be so aggressive about this, but I'm really sick of the idiotic double standards smash 4 gets put through. People say smash 4 takes too long, then immediately say that customs that allow earlier kills are "broken". People say smash 4 doesn't give characters enough "options" then hate on customs which literally increase options in the most objective sense possible.

It's like some people are utterly incapable of thinking any smash game besides Melee can be good.

Edit: I just looked at the customs on discussion, and now I'm just confused. Judging by the discussion, the tier list would be completely different than the nonsense it is now. What gives?

 

[Firefoxx]

That aside, can someone put together a chart based on number of tournament wins per character? That'd be nice too.

If more people used the Smashboards rankings then we would actually have this information in a really well formatted manner that could even sort for top 16/8/4s. But people apparently don't like cool things/useful data.

 

[Locke 06]

All I have to say is that this list says customs off is less balanced. That's all that needs to be said about it's credibility.

I'm sure that at least one person who voted on this thinks wave dashing should be added to smash 4 because it "adds more movement options" while simultaneously saying Kong Cyclone is broken because it "gives too many movement options". I hate to be so aggressive about this, but I'm really sick of the idiotic double standards smash 4 gets put through. People say smash 4 takes too long, then immediately say that customs that allow earlier kills are "broken".

1. Since when is Kong cyclone a movement option?
2. In a game where most characters have to work for their kills and kill around 120-150, getting kills at 50% is stronger than if the average kill % was lowered to 100-120. Especially since low % builds much faster than mid-high %. It's not a double standard.

 

[meleebrawler]

My impressions of some characters and where I think they should place (no customs):

Ike: Not good. Too slow, he only has one fast move. So easy to edge-guard. Low tier.

King DeDeDe: Apart from his infinite, I don't think he's good. Lower-mid.

I can count at least four fast moves for Ike, those being jab, dtilt, nair and bair. That's more than Dedede
who only has two: dtilt and nair. His recovery may be linear, but quick draw can cover such a great distance
with relatively little landing lag so he can often skip the ledge game, especially on a stage with platforms.
He's only really going to get gimped if he is too predictable.

1. Since when is Kong cyclone a movement option?

Must be something about lag-canceling with platforms...