Character Competitive Impressions

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ampharos did the exact same thing in regards to the placement of Kirby and Bowser. Is his tier list a waste of time?

Yes.

Guys, Kirby with or without customs is viable. With customs, he's actually pretty great.

 

[Luco]

Yes.

Guys, Kirby with or without customs is viable. With customs, he's actually pretty great.

Oh, derp, I believe this too. I meant to put Kirby closer to the top of that tier.

And to be fair I view most of the characters in the list as viable, or at least semi viable.

 

[Blobface]

But... The tier list creator even said there was a larger gap in votes for customs ON...

Wah...

...

Fixed, thank you!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucina is quite the ode to sub-optimality, but I'm not convinced she's the worst. I mean, on my current personal tier list, I have Marth at 35/51. Lucina is worse than that to a real extent, but there's no way she's 16 places worse than Marth since they do have the same frame data, the same hitbox shapes, and similar average reward on hit. In general I think people often underrank clones versus the originals; yeah all of the clones are the worse versions, but I don't think someone who errs and picks the "wrong" one is actually dooming themselves to lose as hard as a lot of lists make it look.

Speaking of tier lists, I kinda feel like we should get together what we're thinking about the game now; the balance very well may change a lot on the 15th, and it may be fun years down the line to remember what we thought of the game before its first major patch (1.0.4 doesn't really count since the Wii U version was the real version of the game and 1.0.4 was the same day). I suppose this is presuming 1.0.6 will actually change things, but it seems likely. At the very least, we're definitely getting a new character which of course could change everything. I've put some thought in, and here's about what I'm looking at which at some points does represent a lot of big changes since the last time I posted a list since my understanding has evolved a lot:

A+ (1): Diddy
A (2-8): Sonic, Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, Ness, Mii Brawler, Fox
A- (9-16): Luigi, Villager, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Mario, Peach, Lucario, Captain Falcon
B+ (17-24): Link, Donkey Kong, Pit, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Shulk, Dr. Mario, Palutena
B (25-31): Olimar, Toon Link, Wario, Charizard, Meta Knight, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer
B- (32-39): Mii Gunner, Ike, Bowser Jr., Marth, Bowser, Duck Hunt, Robin, Kirby
C+ (40-44): Ganondorf, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Greninja, Samus
C (45-50): King Dedede, Pac-Man, Falco, Little Mac, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Swordfighter
C- (51): Zelda

Time to qualify this list massive:

This assumes customs on; that's the game I play. Stage rules are assumed to be similar to EVO's (FLSS). This is ranking characters in terms of their viability as a dedicated main; obviously Little Mac especially has more value than this as a secondary, but he's way too easy to counterpick/stage strike against to have more viability as a main than that (I feel like Duck Hunt as well would rank much higher on a tier list of "value as a secondary"). This is also about how good I think the character actually is, not about how popular a character is. I already know I'm controversial on a few characters (I really don't believe in Greninja or Pac-Man at all), but the way I look at it, there are a lot of good characters in this game and moving someone up means implicitly moving everyone else down so if I rank a character low it's me paying a compliment to everyone I rank above them. Like it kinda killed me to put Falco in bottom five except I didn't want to move any of the 46 characters above him down... Also, to be clear, I think anyone with either an A or a B is a truly viable character, and I think all of the Cs are good enough to be dangerous even if they are flawed in various ways. This means match-ups against most of the cast matter; Sheik is a bit better than Rosalina against other characters in top 5, but I think Rosalina outperforms Sheik sufficiently against characters outside of the top 5 to just edge Sheik out on the list (but it's close!). Obviously as one guy my knowledge is imperfect, but I feel like this is the best, most honest representation of how I see this game's balance that I can provide.

I can explain what I'm thinking about any of these placements which could be a fun discussion, but just as much, I'm curious what sorts of lists other people are keeping. Like I said, we may be happy to have this stuff documented in a few years when no one remembers what this version of the game plays like. It would also be interesting to see where we all actually agree and where we all disagree.

Where did I name her as the uncontested absolute worst?

I said I think she along with a few others are worse then swordfighter. Thats it.

If people really want to know who the worst is you would need match-up data which is pointless now due to the patch incoming.

 

[Nocally]

The problem with Lucina is that Marth almost completely invalidate her in everything, which marks her as someone not important in the meta game. If you have a good match-up knowledge against Marth, it can easily transfer over to Lucina since they are so alike. Even customs doesn't differentiate Lucina enough to be truly viable. Dr. Mario at least have some customs that makes him a very different fighter compared to regular Mario.
I would have no problem putting Lucina at the bottom of a tier list, not because she is the worst character, but because of her relevance to the meta game over all. It's the same reason I think someone like Little Mac is not a completely bottom tier character, simply because you have to somewhat respect him as a counter pick character with a scary ground game.

Just my 2 cents though.

 

[bc1910]

A+ (1): Diddy
A (2-8): Sonic, Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, Ness, Mii Brawler, Fox
A- (9-16): Luigi, Villager, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Mario, Peach, Lucario, Captain Falcon
B+ (17-24): Link, Donkey Kong, Pit, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Shulk, Dr. Mario, Palutena
B (25-31): Olimar, Toon Link, Wario, Charizard, Meta Knight, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer
B- (32-39): Mii Gunner, Ike, Bowser Jr., Marth, Bowser, Duck Hunt, Robin, Kirby
C+ (40-44): Ganondorf, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Greninja, Samus
C (45-50): King Dedede, Pac-Man, Falco, Little Mac, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Swordfighter
C- (51): Zelda

An interesting list. Most if not all of the placements make sense, although some jumped out at me as being different from my own perception.

seems too low, maybe even like 8 or 9 places too low. ESAM described the dangers of Heavy Skull Bash better than I could, and I don't think an otherwise stellar character who gets almost every major weakness (except his low weight) patched up by customs belongs anywhere but the top tier. This isn't to say HSB is broken or overpowered, I just think his setups for it are too real.

and could probably swap places but I understand your reasoning. I also think both would end up being better than Sonic in the long run because they're just that much more versatile, but 1.0.5 won't be around long enough for us to find out.

is a little too high in my opinion. The more I see of him the less impressed I am. Egg Launch is an interesting custom but I'm not aware of any other notable customs (in fairness I haven't unlocked all of his customs) and even Egg Launch doesn't fix his primary flaw, that being his lack of good kill confirms (he has jab -> Usmash and that's kind of it). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, though.

I'd place lower in all honesty, which is sad because I really like how she plays. Customs don't really add anything to her meta aside from a few true combos into Leaping Rest, but they usually won't kill so she can't do them without getting hit by a smash attack in most cases. In a customs meta I can't see her being better than... pretty much everyone below her except maybe the bottom 3.

I fear you may be right about because a lot of his stuff just... doesn't work at high level. Customs don't really give him anything to work with. Shifting Shuriken is great in some MUs but in others you'll want the default Shuriken anyway. That said, I would like to hear more about why you don't believe in Greninja. He does have a lot of qualities that echo that of a great character; good range, stellar mobility, great edgeguarding, reliable + fairly safe kill confirms. I feel like Hydro Pump can still qualify for the "jank" that the top tiers have, as can Shifting Shuriken since it charges as quickly as uncharged Shurikens and pulls the opponent straight into running Up Smash range for a true kill combo. Meh, maybe 1.0.6 will rebuff all of his unnecessary 1.0.4 nerfs, which was basically everything but the Hydro Pump nerf. I'm not holding out much hope but you never know.

also seems too low. I'm sure dedicated Pac-mains will be able to tell you why better than I can, but I think he benefits a ton from customs like Freaky Fruit and Meteor Trampoline. On-Fire Hydrant has interesting properties when combined with his fruit customs, too. His grab is still terrible though and I'm not aware of any customs that give him better KO potential besides Meteor Trampoline, which is something you should respect rather than something you should get hit by.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Jab Usmash isn't reliable.
He has no kill setups unless the patch helps him out with his grabs/throws, less lag on bair so can actually shorthop the move, or if jab 1 has more knockback so we can actually have confirmed hits off it.

 

[Smog Frog]

dont eggs set up kills nicely? also he has utilt->uair if that means anything.

 

[FullMoon]

There's no way Greninja can be anything other than high-mid when he has such an amazing advantaged state, one of the best edgeguarding games as well as one of the best recoveries, a good disadvantaged stage and one of the best dash grabs in the game.

Greninja's flaws are his poor OoS options and the overall lagginess of his moves making hard for him to approach safely, but you can work around both of those issues and overall Greninja just has more pros than cons. He can kill really early with a sweetspotted Up-Smash (which gets even easier to land with customs on) or just by gimping someone with B-Air or Hydro Pump, not to mention his many kill setups that allow to quickly end a stock, something a lot of characters can struggle to do without a hard read.

Greninja as he is right now is a pretty well balanced character. He has noticeable flaws that can be exploited but he also has many qualities that make him worth using in spite of his high skill ceiling. He doesn't need any buffs or nerfs, he's fine just the way he is now. Honestly, Greninja as he is right now has pretty much only 3 bad MUs, and I think if he still had all the stuff he had before the patch, he would likely have none due to how dumb his Up-Smash was back then.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

If I had to record what I thought would roughly represent the customs on meta-game at this point in time, as a time stamp, it would probably looks something like this, keeping in mind the letters are literally just there to signify a (usually slight) gap in viability:

Top:
S:
A+:
A:

High:
B+:
B:

Mid:
C+:
C:
C-:

Low:
D+:

As the tiers get lower, the order of placing becomes less important. I'd like to be able to say I have a firm grasp on where each character sits in their tier outside of top and to a lesser extent high, but sadly there were some characters we just very rarely talked about, which I'm hoping we will post-patch, such as ROB, Wario and Olimar.

So that's about what I think of the cast before the patch. The letters don't mean anything important other than gaps, you could substitute them with numbers if you so desired. In many ways it's similar, in some it's different.

Diddy is undisputed top right now, the risk v reward is skewed enough in his favour that it would take years for Sheik's frame data to catch up. I considered for a while leaving Sheik in the same tier but decided that considering the high likelihood Diddy will get nerfed, the differences in their viability at this stage of the meta were big enough to not let Sheik's potential tamper with the list. Which isn't so say Sheik wasn't the obvious second. She's still obnoxious and safe against half the cast, with combos and kill setups to boot. Customs are pretty decent with her too.

Sonic and Rosalina I debated on for a while as to who to put third. Sonic traditionally has been taking that position, however in a customs on environment Dabuz has been showing off the power of shooting star bit in all its glory. I decided to err on the side of caution and keep Sonic at 3rd but reluctantly. Directly behind them, Zero Suit Samus is still very powerful but I decided heavy skull bash means quite a lot for Pikachu and in the hands of another ESAM would probably leave a devastating wake behind the rodent.

Luigi and Ness rounded off this line, I was considering putting them in the below line, however they still have results and potency to back up their weaknesses. Luigi's devastating combo game is still killing at ludicrous percents and iceball is apparently very potent on him, whilst Shaky recently proved Ness is still easily solo viable ("Back throw... yep, still works.") by taking a very close 2nd against M2K's diddy.

Yoshi wants fresh results but is still crazy mobile and has all the tools to have advantageous match-ups across the board. Megafox and NAKAT are putting in work with Fox and his mobility and safety are relatively high, giving him a good spot on my list. Falcon and Mii Brawler are still getting good results pretty consistently, and Villager's ledge camping is too stronk tools are strong enough in a customs on environment to strengthen his viability to that of a top tier imo.

More sparsely, Palutena's grab combos that kill at some wacky percents are still awesome, lightweight and super speed are still god tier moves. The theoretics behind Pac-Man as well as Japan still make me believe in him, some of his MUs look horribly skewed in his favour but this could have changed.

Doc I was conflicted about, because although I buy into the idea quite heavily that he really can't be that bad if Mario's so good, I also don't see many results with Doc in them. This conflict has led me to put him in mid. Wii Fit Trainer is purely Australian bias talking, but it turns out she really does have more than odd hitboxes and -5000 MUs against Kirby and G&W.

As much as Robin's dead zone hurts him, I just can't believe this character would be in bottom tier, not with a top player that has at least to this point shown they can still do so well. The character suffers from a lacking neutral game but can demand respect under the right circumstances and punishes fiercely and kills pretty decently. I don't see how there is any justification for this character being at the bottom.

Samus I believe has some pretty godly customs that make her camping and killing game much more fluid and efficient. Bowser fell from grace, but I don't believe he's low tier quite yet when his damage is that rewarding.

Marth and Lucina unfortunately do find life very hard in smash 4. Here's hoping the patch will help them out a little. =)

yaddiyadda.

I like your list, but I did notice that Kirby is surprisingly low. This is customs ON, you said.

Kirby has good/even MUs with high tier characters already, but with customs, he gets a finisher for his good combos, a useable hammer, and even a cool stone. There is no way he barely makes mid tier with customs on.

 

[warionumbah2]

If I got a kfc chicken wing for every list that has MK in C tier aka mid tier aka I don't know so imma put him here tier.

 

[bc1910]

Prepatch Shurikens were a lot more valuable to Greninja than prepatch Usmash IMO. Having less ending lag on Usmash was cool and all but the oft-maligned Uthrow -> Usmash -> Usmash combo was not a true combo, every character except D3 and maybe Ganondorf could jump out really easily. Whereas having less ending lag on Shurikens basically patched up Greninja's one major flaw, his unsafe approach options. His approach options are not bad at all, they are all highly rewarding, it's just if he guesses wrong and approaches with the wrong move he can get punished really hard. With prepatch Shurikens not only did he have to approach less often because they were more spammable, he could run after the Shuriken more quickly and give the opponent less time to react to his approach. Honestly I'd be totally fine if Shurikens kept their current ending lag but were dash-cancellable 7 frames earlier. This would keep them from being overly spammable whilst allowing Greninja more freedom in approach.

Also the higher level you get, the less reliable Greninja's strong advantageous state becomes. Good players will be aware of their characters options and Greninja's options in any given situation and will be able to escape his combos/strings much more easily. That said, ZeRo manages to combo people really hard with Diddy even at the highest level and Greninja's advantageous state can be just as scary. So many frame traps... once you're aware of your opponent's options you can make resetting to neutral really tough for them.

Oh and I totally agree Greninja's disadvantaged state is pretty good, purely because his double jump is so massive which people often overlook. You're just not gonna catch him when he can physically get so much higher than you. And unlike Falco, he has the aerial mobility and fast fall speed to retreat + land safely, or at least get to the ledge. Then you have stuff like Hydro Pump, Shadow Sneak and Substitute which can all be used to escape dangerous situations. I can't think of another character of the top of my head who has 3/4 useful specials in the disadvantaged state... maybe Pikachu?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I continue to see this often enough but each time i see this custom teir list there always the "this character is too low" thing. now this ain't exactally a problem but most of these comments never back up who they think is worse than said character or supply Top tier MU data/thoerys.

And on that topic does it really matter? from what i know many characters become usable in competitive environment with customs. For that matter i think Bowser is even higher than kirby in customs but the overall result is that the tier gaps became alot smaller right? Baically what im trying to say is that tier placement becomes more disconcernable even in high tier placement much less low tier.

 

[FullMoon]

Yes, shurikens were more important for Greninja, but even if they are nerfed they're still a pretty good projectile. Fast, disruptive, long ranged, good for edgeguarding... Shurikens still do everything they're meant to do very well, just not as good as before.

Also saying that in higher level Greninja's advantageous state is worse just because players will be more aware of what he can do, then the same could be said for pretty every character and so Greninja still has one of best advantaged state of the roster. Greninja is amazing at catching landings with his disjointed Up-Smash or Up-Tilt, or even just grabbing the opponent when they're trying to land. Besides, a high level Greninja will probably still be able to juggle opponents left and right because Greninja has so many option to mix things up and has so many good strings and frame traps that I doubt anybody can really know everything he can do.

Even then, players in high level probably still don't know much about Greninja's options, see Ally vs aMSa where it's pretty clear that Ally has no clue of how to deal with the frog and ends up paying the price for it.

Greninja is a versatile character, a really versatile one. He can do a ton of things out of N-Air alone and it's far from being his only combo move, there's Up-Tilt, Up-Air Spike, D-Tilt, F-Air, D-Air, Dash Attack... Greninja has probably some of the best reward on hit in the game because he either combos you for good damage at low percentages, juggles you when you're up in the air and flat-out kills you because N-Air -> Up-Smash is a true combo at high percentages among other things.

The main thing that's going to doom a Greninja player is being predictable. You need to be aware of all the tools Greninja has at his disposal at all times, you gotta mix up your game, you gotta learn your opponent's habits and exploit them because that will throw them off and leave them second guessing themselves and leave themselves more vulnerable to Greninja's antics.

In that sense Greninja plays much like how you'd expect a ninja to, which is something I find really cool. Before the patch, Greninja honestly felt like a pretty brain-dead character to play because you could just spam shurikens and Up-Smash with impunity for the most part.

This all also reminds me that I need to go back to playing Mark of the Ninja.

 

[mimgrim]

You shouldn't be approaching with Greninja anyway has his approach game isn't that good and that isn't what he is suppose to doing. x_x

You want to give the illusion that you are approaching when in reality what you are doing is just staying just out of the opponents range waiting from them to over commit so you can Punish them. Greninja excels at doing this. If you are playing the neutral any other way with Greninja then you are probably playing him wrong. x_x

I really wish people would get it out of their heads that approaching = the only way to play the neutral game. >_>

 

[Balgorxz]

and the best part of these tiers and community impressions is that they will be worthless in 10 days when the patch hits.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

If I got a kfc chicken wing for every list that has MK in C tier aka mid tier aka I don't know so imma put him here tier.

Mid tier is his destiny

 

[Blobface]

I still think we really don't need 28+ tiers. All we really need is S tier (obvious best), A tier (can compete without secondary), and B tier (needs a secondary to be competitive or must be a secondary).

 

[bc1910]

Also saying that in higher level Greninja's advantageous state is worse just because players will be more aware of what he can do, then the same could be said for pretty every character and so Greninja still has one of best advantaged state of the roster. Greninja is amazing at catching landings with his disjointed Up-Smash or Up-Tilt, or even just grabbing the opponent when they're trying to land. Besides, a high level Greninja will probably still be able to juggle opponents left and right because Greninja has so many option to mix things up and has so many good strings and frame traps that I doubt anybody can really know everything he can do.

In that sense Greninja plays much like how you'd expect a ninja to, which is something I find really cool. Before the patch, Greninja honestly felt like a pretty brain-dead character to play because you could just spam shurikens and Up-Smash with impunity for the most part.

Shurikens are simply just not as good as they used to be purely from a numbers point of view ( sends his regards), and that hurts Greninja regardless of whether they're still good or not. Which they are, I just wish they allowed him more freedom in approach.

With regard to the first paragraph I quoted, I think the same CAN be said for every character. It's not just Greninja. I think it becomes harder to stay in an advantageous state with any character the higher level you go, since that's just how this game is built, with the defensive options being stronger. It just hurts Greninja more than others because he relies on his advantageous state more than they do. But then there are people like ZeRo and Boss who totally prove me wrong and I hope they continue to do so.

The thing is, prepatch Greninja was no less deep than current Greninja. If anything he was more deep. It's just his base-level strategies were strong enough to see him through for the most part. He still had all the same traps we're finding now, because his tools only got worse. The exception here is Shadow Sneak which got buffed, and that admittedly makes his recovery more versatile and deep than it used to be.

Anyway I should probably stop talking about prepatch Greninja, he isn't coming back. And with current Greninja I think you're right about a lot of his strengths and he has a lot of potential. He's one of the characters I see rising up in tier lists rather than falling. Hopefully some results can back this up.

@ mimgrim I never said neutral = approaching nor do I believe that. I never mentioned Greninja's neutral. As a bait and punish character I totally agree with your description of the optimal way to play Greninja's neutral, and it works well due to his amazing mobility. However it's nice for any character to have good approaching options should they need to approach.

 

[Luco]

I like your list, but I did notice that Kirby is surprisingly low. This is customs ON, you said.

Kirby has good/even MUs with high tier characters already, but with customs, he gets a finisher for his good combos, a useable hammer, and even a cool stone. There is no way he barely makes mid tier with customs on.

This is a really fair argument, but I'd like to know what results prove this. I've heard some nice stuff about Kirby, I just haven't seen much of it myself hehe.

If I got a kfc chicken wing for every list that has MK in C tier aka mid tier aka I don't know so imma put him here tier.

I'll have you know I think MK is pretty good and stand by the assertion of putting him at the tip top of mid tier and not that it was a "oh MK.... everyone puts him mid so here he goes woop"

I think MK still has a lot of his potency in range and mobility, his edge-guarding is still something to be feared and I don't think he has any particularly awful MUs (though I could be wrong), but like Kirby I haven't seen much of his results and he still lacks that incredible frame data he once had. It's nothing that damns him, but I'm yet to see evidence that says he should be higher than mid at this stage.

And I also think the gaps in tiers are good. They may be subtle and the characters in them might as well all be viable, but it's good to have the information there. And for the record I do think Diddy is just slightly more viable than the rest of top tier at this point in time. And I do think Villager's line is just a little more viable than Mario's line even if they're all viable.

In Brawl, you could have made a two-tier tier list: 'Viable', and 'Unviable', the former of which included about 10 characters and the latter including the other odd 26. But that list would feel dis-organised and too big a chunk to work with. The advantage of having clear tiers of viability isn't just for accuracy, but it also makes figuring out where characters go in the long run much easier. If you think your character has the tools to ascend to 'B+' tier it's a lot easier to say that then to say something like 'I think my character should move up around ere DK and ROB are', y'know? Because you have more reference points, essentially.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I still think we really don't need 28+ tiers. All we really need is S tier (obvious best), A tier (can compete without secondary), and B tier (needs a secondary to be competitive or must be a secondary).

S will probably have 1 or 2, and A I doubt will be more than 10. You definitely don't need your main to be in the top 10 to win, this isn't Brawl.

This is a really fair argument, but I'd like to know what results prove this. I've heard some nice stuff about Kirby, I just haven't seen much of it myself hehe.



I'll have you know I think MK is pretty good and stand by the assertion of putting him at the tip top of mid tier and not that it was a "oh MK.... everyone puts him mid so here he goes woop"

I think MK still has a lot of his potency in range and mobility, his edge-guarding is still something to be feared and I don't think he has any particularly awful MUs (though I could be wrong), but like Kirby I haven't seen much of his results and he still lacks that incredible frame data he once had. It's nothing that damns him, but I'm yet to see evidence that says he should be higher than mid at this stage.

Kirby has some of the best frame data in the game so I don't know what you're talking about there. Anyways, mikekirby goes to xanadu and usually gets really far. TripleR also wins too.

EDIT: it's not Xanadu mikekirby goes to, it's another big one.

 

[Luco]

S will probably have 1 or 2, and A I doubt will be more than 10. You definitely don't need your main to be in the top 10 to win, this isn't Brawl.


Kirby has some of the best frame data in the game so I don't know what you're talking about there. Anyways, mikekirby goes to xanadu and usually gets really far. TripleR also wins too.

Sorry I didn't make that clear, I wasn't trying to imply Kirby didn't have good frame data, my comparison only stretched so far as the results part

Any vids of Mikekirby/recent placings/notable wins? I remember him from Brawl, good to hear he's putting in work for you guys. <3

 

[HeroMystic]

With a few exceptions, I would write off any Customs ON tier list because we've only had roughly a month of full exposure to them. That said, I'll go ahead and put down how I would list characters in a Customs OFF tier list. I'll be leaving out the Miis as the ruleset behind them is still being debated.

I'll explain how my tiering works.

There is A tier, B tier, then C tier. With the exception of Diddy Kong, each group within their own tier can combat each other and are within similar strengths.

A Tier is the group I consider can reliably win tournaments with minimal use of a secondary. Not having a secondary at all seems silly because at this point I firmly believe at high/top level play, having a secondary is incredibly useful to add onto your options.

B Tier is the group that has a noticeable gap of viability and relative power and has a smaller margin of error than the A-tiers. B+ Tier in particular are all what I would actually consider "A--" tier but not so viable that they can consistently win tournaments without some counterpicking.

Within their group, I separated them even further to how I feel are microscopic gaps of power. Again, with the exception of Diddy Kong whom I feel noticeably more powerful than the rest of the cast but not so much that he deserves an S tier.

Everything from A+ tier to B+ tier is ordered. Everything else beyond that I've ordered to the best of my ability but most of it is hearsay and purely impressions.

A+:
A:
A-:

B+:
B:
B-:

C+:
C:


I'll explain the radicals.

: Incredibly strong in this game with superior mobility in the ground and in the air and possesses incredible neutrals. He's only held back by poor specials (except Side-B) and getting juggled, which is bad due to his light weight. A Fox player that can control his mobility is an evasive character capable of spacing aerials, avoiding grabs, and forcing the opponent to a reactive playstyle. Also has great kill confirms which is something a lot of characters cannot say for themselves. If it wasn't for his bad approaches and sub-par disadvantaged state he'd be higher.

: Constantly placed as a Top 5 character but I don't see it anymore. Sonic's main weakness is his incredibly poor landing options and over-reliance on his mix-ups. Anyone who can match his ground mobility (Falcon, Fox, Pikachu, Sheik) does noticably well against Sonic and anyone who can reliably knock him in the air tends to have a good MU against him. Sonic can cover his weaknesses with spring and efficient use of Spin Dash, but if the opponent is constantly pressuring him it can be very hard for him to have enough momentum to seal a match. Regardless, he's still a very strong character and I would expect him to keep bringing in results.

: In A- Tier due to Ally and other Mario players bringing in results, and having particularly good MUs against other A tiers with the exception of Diddy which is what I would consider winnable. But he also has uphill MUs against some random B tiers and doesn't dominate a lot of MUs if not at all. There's a lot I can say about Mario but I'll keep it brief and say he's a solid character in this game, but B+ Tier sounds accurate too.

: Another Top 5 character in a lot of people's eyes but honestly this hype train needs to die. Yoshi is a solid character but frankly it's been far too long of no results to back up his high placement. Mostly held back by Sheik and Diddy and lacking any reliable kill set-ups. I still see him as a solid character thanks to his superb mobility and high damage output, but when it's time to seal the deal he noticeably struggles and is susceptible to being spaced out.

: Needs more exploration in my eyes, but Peach is finally getting some recognition which is good. She's a very strong character in this game with amazing spacing options and good turnip usage. D-tilt is a great grounded option while ground-floating takes care of the rest. Mostly held back by being pressured and requiring stage control to be 100% effective, but I can see her jumping higher on the list once the more technical side of her starts getting more exposure.

: Not a radical, but I really want to place him in B+ and even further A-, but doesn't have the results nor the exposure to back it up. Very strong kill options and possesses one of the best advantaged states, but really reliant on getting kills at mid-percents. Held back by his sub-par neutral game and being very light-weight. Really want to see MK's meta develop further as I feel this is the #1 sleeper character.

 

[David Viran]

Shurikens are simply just not as good as they used to be purely from a numbers point of view ( sends his regards), and that hurts Greninja regardless of whether they're still good or not. Which they are, I just wish they allowed him more freedom in approach.

With regard to the first paragraph I quoted, I think the same CAN be said for every character. It's not just Greninja. I think it becomes harder to stay in an advantageous state with any character the higher level you go, since that's just how this game is built, with the defensive options being stronger. It just hurts Greninja more than others because he relies on his advantageous state more than they do. But then there are people like ZeRo and Boss who totally prove me wrong and I hope they continue to do so.

I can't say I really agree with people being able capitalize less hard at a higher level. Like look at a mid to low level zss player then look at nairos zss. Nairo capitalizes way harder even though the players he plays are better because he knows all his options and his opponents too. Yeah at a higher level people are better at escaping combos but it goes both ways because the high level player is better at performing those combos.

 

[Blobface]

S will probably have 1 or 2, and A I doubt will be more than 10. You definitely don't need your main to be in the top 10 to win, this isn't Brawl.

I'd put a majority of the cast in A tier customs off and probably over 90% in A tier with customs on. The only characters I would put in B-tier with customs on are: Zelda (customs can only help so much), Dedede (Megaman and a few others), Mac (an inherently polarizing character who requires a secondary to deal with some of his horrid matchups). That's really it. Pretty much everyone else gets tools to deal with their bad matchups.

Also, speaking of Dedede and customs, @ Smooth Criminal how are his customs? Is Armored Jet Hammer any good to get out of combos/chains?

 

[Hippieslayer]

If you don't see how there is at least some comparison then you're delusional I'm afraid.

Is your delusion defined by you being in the 'lalala these moves don't exist as described' boat (where move data will tell you otherwise)? Or perhaps the 'lalala the hit confirms or set up into these moves don't exist' boat (where tournament results will tell you otherwise)?
"Screwing up" happens to be a natural part of the game. Simple things like "don't be near the ledge", "don't get grabbed", "don't get hit" or "don't jump or land" are screw ups any level of tournament players seem to not be able avoid; crazy, I know, but step into the lens of reality and you shall see both the light and the shadow.

The number '50%' may be the broken stem in your thought process, in which case, you should look at repairing that. Yes those three moves are going to be killing earlier then the moves we're referencing, but they're noticeably more restrictive in their usage too. Yes they will kill at 50% without rage, while the ones we're talking about can kill at noticeably low percent with rage.

of course they exist as described by move data, they dont exists as the gamebreakers described by the anti custom bandwagon, tournament results can't tell you much about customs as of now, yeah we have one instance of mvd getting pwnd by esam because he kept falling into heavy skull bash, doesnt say ****, where are the consistently gamebreaking customs appearing in tournaments?

yeah screwups exists, and as already screwups can get you killed by a ton of things a ridiculous percents as has already been stated multiple times

the big contrast between custom and customless meta you're talking is due to inexperience with the former

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

D3's relationship with his customs is lukewarm at best. The Gordo variants, Topspin and Bouncing, sacrifice a lot of the precision and stage control that the regular Gordos offer. Topspin's hilarious for straight-up edgeguarding situations, but you lose out on the stage control aspect thanks to its linearity. Bouncing can be tricky, as you can manipulate the radius of the bounce (platform stuff is kinda cool), but it's easily disposed of. It's the easiest thing in the world to knock it away and create a situation where D3 can't capitalize on it. Bouncing also lacks in kill power/potential, as well.

The Inhale variants all have their uses, but Taste Test is probably the best "side-grade" of the pair. Dedede Storm might offer some interesting scenarios for pressuring on the ledge and Luma counterplay, but I personally haven't seen it. The only downside to Taste Test is that D3 loses out on positioning exactly where he's going to spit out his opponents (Regicide is out of the question, too), but it's a small price to pay for potentially sending them out far enough to where they can't recover off-stage.

The Jet Hammers...don't even ask me about this move, haha. Reluctantly I would take the Armored variant, but that's only because you could potentially surprise an unwary opponent with the armored properties of the move as a sort of "psuedo-counter." Either way, neither Dashing nor Armored kill early enough to matter, and they surely don't make much of a difference.

The Jumps are okay. Rising D3 is hilarious, placing the hitbox of the move over D3 when he ascends. You can snag quite a few people unawares with this, even combo into it to kill people off the top, but otherwise it's as easily exploitable as his regular recovery. Quick D3 jump sacrifices flexible horizontal movement and any kind of hitbox for a speedy vertical lift. I can see where this may be handy in assisting D3's flight from edgeguarding by quickly snapping to the ledge, but I don't like the fact that he's completely vulnerable. I like the coverage the other two provide more.

Smooth Criminal

 

[warionumbah2]

MK does have results, don't know where this is coming from he ain't jigglypuff.

Edit: there's also S2H, just adding on what maz said.

 

[HeroMystic]

MK does have results, don't know where this is coming from he ain't jigglypuff.

May you elaborate on this? Because this is the only thing stopping me from placing him in B+ on my list.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

May you elaborate on this? Because this is the only thing stopping me from placing him in B+ on my list.

I will gladly do this.

MK has Katakari and Ito as our two big reps, with I think Katakari even being one of the best in his large area. I also think Ito had only 1 or 2 non-first places as MK.

Look them both up, they're so awesome to watch.

Unknown also has a high placing MK, and before Tyrant switched he was winning with MK. MK doesn't have many reps, but our reps are amazing.

 

[Gunla]

@ Smooth Criminal
I like Dedede Storm as a move, but it has massive end-lag; it's particularly noticeable compared to the neutral version. Taste Test, however, I will say is a good move, despite losing the Regicide. I tend to use 3111 if I want to play Dedede; otherwise, I tend to go flat.

 

[Djent]

We'll get to see some good action when Ito plays Zero in top 8 winners at NCR. It'll be on Sp00ky's channel around 4 p.m. PST (approx. 2 hours from now).

I'm not going to attempt a full tier list, but here's my crack at S and A w/ customs off:

S
A+
A
A-

Diddy is noticeably better than every other character. Sheik is still #2 but could drop out of that spot. Pika is basically 3rd by process-of-elimination; he doesn't lose to Diddy too hard and matches up well against the remaining A tiers with the possible exceptions of Luigi and Fox. Sonic is all-around strong but just doesn't beat anyone that badly. A is for characters that are highly dominant in some MUs with small exploitable flaws in others (Fox's lack of a throw game, Luigi's approach issues, Rosa vs. Diddy, ZSS vs. Pika). A- continues the trend of characters with spotty MU spreads (Ness & Villager) who are still mostly reliable. It also contains some all-rounders who lack anything genuinely broken, such as the Mario characters. Yoshi in particular was overrated but is still a very strong character; that much I don't think can be reasonably denied.

Characters who were close but didn't make the cut:
I could go into a little more detail on each of these, but I'm lazy and Marvel is about to start @ NCR.

 

[Luco]

May I ask what puts Wario so high in your opinion? =)

 

[Djent]

I think Wario could potentially have even or close-to-even MUs against several important characters (Sheik, Pika, Fox). The first two are definitely hurt by their lack of guaranteed kill confirms, which matter a lot between rage + Waft. I'm less sure of Fox, but my intuition says that his disadvantage could really be a problem, although Jab -> USmash is a nifty confirm to have against a character without an excellent ground game.

On the other hand, I can't really think of any characters against which I wouldn't want to pick him. I want to say Luigi's punish game could be a problem against a character without strong keepaway or good range. But even then it's not like I'd feel the need to switch off of him.

 

[Superbat]

Itol uses metaknight but I know he starts to use diddy when he gets bopped. Hopefully he'll use mk for the full match because he's getting bopped by Zero no matter what lol

 

[warionumbah2]

We'll get to see some good action when Ito plays Zero in top 8 winners at NCR. It'll be on Sp00ky's channel around 4 p.m. PST (approx. 2 hours from now).

We'll get to see some good action when Ito plays Zero in top 8 winners at NCR.

We'll get to see some good action

Ito plays Zero

Is it customs or non customs?

 

[Locke 06]

Seeing Villager so high up makes me pause quite a bit. I've heard "Villager has a good Diddy MU" but I haven't seen it played out nor heard of a "Villager uprising" to combat the monkey empire. I just haven't seen a lot of Villager rep, personally, and my impression of his/her top tier MU's is not spectacular, mostly because of how good their recoveries are to avoid bowling ball gimps.

What am I missing?

 

[Djent]

I don't think Villager wins the MU, although it's not bad for him. I'm more interested in how he does vs. the likes of Pikachu and Luigi.

I think NCR has customs on, but it won't matter much for Diddy vs. MK.

 

[Antonykun]

Seeing Villager so high up makes me pause quite a bit. I've heard "Villager has a good Diddy MU" but I haven't seen it played out nor heard of a "Villager uprising" to combat the monkey empire. I just haven't seen a lot of Villager rep, personally, and my impression of his/her top tier MU's is not spectacular, mostly because of how good their recoveries are to avoid bowling ball gimps.

What am I missing?

Early misconception Villager/Diddy is 45:55 at best

 

[Radical Larry]

Link is being slept on once more.
Oh, and am I the only one who thinks Rosalina isn't as viable as she seems? Sure, she has great follow-ups with grabs and some decent attacks and combos, but she's a very weak knockback character akin to Sheik, and without Luma, she's powerless (and often people just roll with her until she gets Luma back). Also, her light weight and floatiness, as well as predictable recovery, factor in this.

She seems to be more like a Middle Tier Character. Her weaknesses are very evident and if one exploits them, they will give Rosa a very tough, somewhat unwinnable (for Rosa) time.