Character Competitive Impressions

[Blobface]

Side note, I'm watching the recorded version of the finals, and am I the only one that really likes these commentators?

Yeah, full testing and not, "Oh, Diddy's Uair looks weaker". The 1.0.5 patch and Falco's Blaster being "faster"... If only.

Blasted placebo effect man. Nothing's quite as bad as thinking your character has some kind of meta-changing buff only to find out you all imagined it.

Saying Shulk invalidates Ike is like saying Sheik invalidates Greninja when they don't play like each other and when they do try to play like each other, they're not playing to their strengths.

but... but... they're both ninjas!

 

[HeroMystic]

Another thing not related to the thread's subject, but do people actually let themselves get bodied to learn a MU or take a glimpse at someone's habits?

Yeah, this is a tactic used at high level play. Mid level play this barely exists because player habits are extremely exploitable but are often missed.

M2K used this a lot in Brawl where he would spend two stocks learning an opponent's habits and then either make a comeback on his last stock or use the rest of the set to solidly win. I know Nairo went on record to say against Nientono, he would use Pit's Side-B and leave himself in a punishable state just to see if Nientono would punish it (and he didn't). This is where the phrase "Download Complete" often comes from.

 

[Nu~]

Sigh. Another tournament without a Pac-Man.
Koolaid is still training with Pac's customs and Abadango straight up doesn't like any of them outside of the on fire hydrant.

It's going to be a while until people can actually witness his potential with customs.

 

[meleebrawler]

Both Palutena and Jigglypuff have a good Dash Attack and F-air. Palutena also has above average grab reward and a teleport, while Jigglypuff has the broken short crouch and a legitimate shield break threat. Dunno how you can say they're the worst.

I'd also like to say Palutena has comparable, if not better hit confirms with her jab, which often leads to grabs
itself. This combined with her quick fair, good ground speed and a decent pestering projectile gives her a more reliable neutral.
I will admit, though, that Zelda's ground game is a lot safer than Palutena's; but that doesn't mean a thing if you lack
the speed to get in and ways to encourage people to come to you. As it stands the only reasonable thing she has
to threaten at a distance without a hard read or punish is Phantom.

Probably the biggest reason Palutena is ahead of Zelda is actually having kill setups with-wait for it-dthrow >
uair, even if said setup stops working well with rage and can be DIed.

Re: Zelda, I recall seeing some early 3DS matches where Zelda made good use of Farore's Wind to completely ignore zoning from the likes of ROB and Duck Hunt. IDK if that's actually a legit thing still or if it was just no one being used to Farore's Wind having a hitbox on reappearance, but it was interesting to see how she basically negated their game plan like that.

Farore's can be pretty reliable against slow-firing projectile users, but it's still quite punishable with shield
so it's not to be done recklessly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

People even believe that Shulk invalidates Ike's existence because by default, Shulk's much more flexible, but with customs, Shulk doesn't have access to a windbox to edgeguard, a differently angled recovery, or the ability to dash through things with Close Combat. Even then, Shulk lacks Ike's consistency of being strong and durable all the time while Shulk has to choose between being strong, fast, durable, etc and those don't last the whole time. Vanilla/Monado-less Shulk would be closer to Ike, but that's not how Shulk will play, especially at tournaments. Shulk will make use of his Monado Arts and be inconsistent to throw off people. Saying Shulk invalidates Ike is like saying Sheik invalidates Greninja when they don't play like each other and when they do try to play like each other, they're not playing to their strengths.

@SolidSense said it before, but Ike is better than Shulk. Just...all of his attacks except D-air, F-smash, and D-smash are better. Most importantly Ike's grab game is super good, while Shulk's is mediocre even with Buster/Smash gimmicks.

Dthrow fair is all Palutena has on anyone who knows how to deal with it (i.e. don't attack the shield after the fair). This includes at 0% percent, where a very small selection can be naired to regrabbed, but not against anyone good.
Dash Attack is good, but not that good without light weight or super speed. You'd really have to be a fool to get hit by what's her only option when it's like half the range of every other dash attack in the game.

Jiggs probably does have more usable moves I agree. But I don't think anyone has more crippling weaknesses than she does without any noticeable strength.

In addition to a few throw combos, Palutena also benefits from a fast and highly damaging pummel. So as I was saying, her grab reward is in fact above average.

Jigglypuff is hindered significantly by being extremely light, yeah, in a game where Rage exists and DI is much weaker and where she can't scrooge her way to victory anymore. Similarly though it's why Kirby and G&W aren't very good. They're super light and risky. Jigglypuff has better air mobility than both of them though allowing her to do more things that are actually safe on block. Also Rest is what, frame 2 if I recall?

 

[thehard]

Side note, I'm watching the recorded version of the finals, and am I the only one that really likes these commentators?

I liked them too + good crowd and sub-mode on. Sp00ky delivers.

I would have liked to see an SD-less/ledge snap-miss-less Finals there, Ito brought his A game otherwise. It looks like up-air strings and dash grabs define the MK/CF MU.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Re: Zelda, I recall seeing some early 3DS matches where Zelda made good use of Farore's Wind to completely ignore zoning from the likes of ROB and Duck Hunt. IDK if that's actually a legit thing still or if it was just no one being used to Farore's Wind having a hitbox on reappearance, but it was interesting to see how she basically negated their game plan like that.

Yeah, it's definitely useful for punishing projectiles with large amounts of end lag, but it doesn't completely negate their game plan because FW can be shielded and easily punished if you get predictable

 

[Teshie U]

http://www.twitch.tv/UltraArcade

Denti vs a custom villager in grand finals at a local.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

From release to now, what has been most consistent for me is a low opinion of Bowser and Duck Hunt.

Frankly I have consistently felt that the only reason Duck Hunt recovers is the reality that the community as a whole on all levels is not as solid off-stage as we'll universally become. This is pretty much top 3 of easiest recoveries to stop. You want a slow moving recovery with no hitbox and no armor whatsoever? Mixed with rather disappointing kill power on-stage, and gaps in the zoning game? Not fond of Duck Hunt, and yet with opinions the way they are I don't think he will rise on anyones radar to be buffed. Now the Dog has some serious power potential in customs that legitimately werent there in default, and his normals universally don't cover my dilemma with him.

I hold Bowser in similar regard only his recovery is better in multiple contexts, he is not lacking in Kill power by any stretch of the imagination. These are characters whose disadvantage state are far too unreliable for me to hold them in favour. I make the statement I made before, DDD has problems landing, and his recovery isn't infallible, yet between Multi-jumps, his N-air, and the initial armor of his recovery. I gave him the benefit of the doubt to have several more real time coming back to the stage then the Dog or turtle, and he'll be juggled less then the turtle.

It's odd I've found myself hard on Bowser from the jump, and nothings really changed my initial impression other then the idea each week that says to me he's even worse then expected.

These aren't "X character is **** from the jump and can't win a game" impressions but "I don't see how someone can say they'll just play around this weakness with real certainty when your character can be proc'd into this state fairly well." You don't really play around Little Mac's recovery disadvantage, it's generally accepted if you're knocked off stage, call jesus. You take your advantage in neutral so that you don't get off-stage in the first place. Neither of these characters are as good as Mac on the ground, you are going to be put in the air or off-stage and you are poorly equipped to deal with this when it happens.

I can say Mac doesn't like the air, but **** it, I can visibly react to Bowsers chief ways of landing, if I snatch your double jump I automatically feel zero fear because you can't bait out ****. Mac can still threaten a counter, hell a Haymaker or be as nutty as to try an aerial simply because I have to carry some respect for the counter. If you air dodge, your options upon landing are *So slow* that even if you don't suffer air-dodge lag multiple characters won't be put in a real frame disadvantage against you as you can't surmount an attack that they cannot simple shield, clash or roll away from if not outright beat out by buffering a grab/attack.

DDD doesn't work like this, he has heinous air speed that is exploitable and like Bowser poor landing options but the reality is he has multi jumps (as does Kirby who to me has this issue to a lesser degree) and I can lose these bets as a result of his third or fourth jump. More importantly if I lose these bets his N-air is a more frightening entity then Bowsers, if I goof DDD has his Dtilt.

I don't see how Bowser holds an advantage on Kirby, Shulk, Ike, Charizard, Diddy, Sheik, Pikachu, Marth, Lucina, Yoshi, Link, Toon Link, Pit, Dark Pit, Blinking Sword Fighter, Fox.. Actually to make a long story short. If you have any of these: General good buttons, Disjointed anti-airs, solid Dash grabs, a wicked advantage state, a possible cape effect, strong ground based movement, Super Armor, then frankly I think you automatically put this MU in your favor the majority of the time.

Worst in the game? I would not be so bold, but I feel even opinions of "mid" are just residual hype that has yet to die. Didn't Gimpyfish say Bowser was good back when Brawl was first released? At least I remember Bowser hype on Brawls release too that did not pan out.

A lot could be said moving into 1.06, but I still see little in those two characters and MVD's apex performance despite placing well made me only feel stronger about the Dogs eventual decline.

 

[HeroMystic]

http://www.twitch.tv/UltraArcade

Denti vs a custom villager in grand finals at a local.

Literally 20 minutes away from me. We had a monthly yesterday so I decided to not go for a break. BC is probably the best Villager in Texas even with customs off.

 

[Hippieslayer]

@SolidSense

In addition to a few throw combos, Palutena also benefits from a fast and highly damaging pummel. So as I was saying, her grab reward is in fact above average.

Jigglypuff is hindered significantly by being extremely light, yeah, in a game where Rage exists and DI is much weaker and where she can't scrooge her way to victory anymore. Similarly though it's why Kirby and G&W aren't very good. They're super light and risky. Jigglypuff has better air mobility than both of them though allowing her to do more things that are actually safe on block. Also Rest is what, frame 2 if I recall?

What grab combos again? Do you mean combos into grab or something? As Shaya pointed out all she has is d-throw>fair unless the opponent doesnt know how to DI. D-throw>Fair is not particularly damaging, it's good for stage control though.

Regardless her grab is quite laggy if whiffed, her dash attack is short ranged and very laggy if missed, it's still decent because of the priority but not threatening at all since it will get you punished hard if you overuse it, and you need to overuse if you're gonna compensate for her other flaws. All her grounded attacks are slow to come out, including jab (f7). Her tilts are all trash, barely even situationally useable. All in all she severly lacks OOS options. Her teleport gives her a decent recovery but you can't use it for anything else since it lacks hitboxes and has lag on the start and ending of it.

Put her against any character that is mobile enough to do some kind of weaving and she's forced to spotdodge and roll in order not to avoid getting hit which will inevetably lead to her getting hit anyway. And when she does get hit and sent into the air she's a sitting duck, her teleport can't save her since its punishable in itself if used for anything except recovering. Use counter to land and you will get baited into a smash and die.

All of her kill options rely on gimmicks (which wont work with mu knowledge: jab>usmash or d-throw>usmash) or hard reads. Her jab, bair, and fair save her from being as ****y as Zelda, since she can actually poke and space with them, but neither deal much damage, and neither lead into anything more dangerous than d-throw>fair so they can't save her.

Don't kid yourself about her. You only think she has potential because you don't understand her, she's never going to be even decent without customs because if she starts pulling ahead so that people actually need to know how to play against her (which has thus far not been case, which in itself should tell you something) she's gonna go down the drain the moment they do.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What grab combos again? Do you mean combos into grab or something? As Shaya pointed out all she has is d-throw>fair unless the opponent doesnt know how to DI. D-throw>Fair is not particularly damaging, it's good for stage control though.

Regardless her grab is quite laggy if whiffed, her dash attack is short ranged and very laggy if missed, it's still decent because of the priority but not threatening at all since it will get you punished hard if you overuse it, and you need to overuse if you're gonna compensate for her other flaws. All her grounded attacks are slow to come out, including jab (f7). Her tilts are all trash, barely even situationally useable. All in all she severly lacks OOS options. Her teleport gives her a decent recovery but you can't use it for anything else since it lacks hitboxes and has lag on the start and ending of it.

Put her against any character that is mobile enough to do some kind of weaving and she's forced to spotdodge and roll in order not to avoid getting hit which will inevetably lead to her getting hit anyway. And when she does get hit and sent into the air she's a sitting duck, her teleport can't save her since its punishable in itself if used for anything except recovering. Use counter to land and you will get baited into a smash and die.

All of her kill options rely on gimmicks (which wont work with mu knowledge: jab>usmash or d-throw>usmash) or hard reads. Her jab, bair, and fair save her from being as ****y as Zelda, since she can actually poke and space with them, but neither deal much damage, and neither lead into anything more dangerous than d-throw>fair so they can't save her.

Don't kid yourself about her. You only think she has potential because you don't understand her, she's never going to be even decent without customs because if she starts pulling ahead so that people actually need to know how to play against her (which has thus far not been case, which in itself should tell you something) she's gonna go down the drain the moment they do.

And, you're arguing semantics why again? Where the hell do you even disagree with me? I never said anywhere that I think Palutena is amazing. But she's at least better than the ten characters I listed previously.

Palutena has good grab reward because her pummel is actually really good, and D-throw F-air is still 12%. Combine the two, you have good overall guaranteed damage from throws. The positional advantage is still strong enough to bait people into other aerial followups at relatively low risk if you're looking for KOs. You can DI out of Ganon and Falcon's D-throw combos a lot more easily, but their D-throws are still very strong for setups regardless.

Also another thing. If you're getting punished for using Teleport on stage to get out of traps, the matchup is either Sheik/Sonic/Mac/Falcon, or you're actually just doing it wrong. The only really bad thing about Teleport is actually that your opponent risks nothing for trying to spike you out of it for sweetspotting the ledge (plus, ledge trumps are scary for Palutena).



Random: the most underrated throw in the game is Falcon's U-throw. Discuss.

 

[Shaya]

@SolidSense said it before, but Ike is better than Shulk. Just...all of his attacks except D-air, F-smash, and D-smash are better. Most importantly Ike's grab game is super good, while Shulk's is mediocre even with Buster/Smash gimmicks.

In addition to a few throw combos, Palutena also benefits from a fast and highly damaging pummel. So as I was saying, her grab reward is in fact above average.

Jigglypuff is hindered significantly by being extremely light, yeah, in a game where Rage exists and DI is much weaker and where she can't scrooge her way to victory anymore. Similarly though it's why Kirby and G&W aren't very good. They're super light and risky. Jigglypuff has better air mobility than both of them though allowing her to do more things that are actually safe on block. Also Rest is what, frame 2 if I recall?

I would leave it at average, arguably below (I think Marth's grab game is average, yet I could argue better than Palutenas with ease [wouldn't necessarily be right though]). She also has the laggiest melee grab animation out there (and dash grab too). Dthrow to fair being all she has at EVERY point and never ever ever having any means of forcing a bair or dash attack (her only remotely viable kill moves because you never should be dealing with uair). You may have already noticed but her grab is the only option she has and unlike Diddy/Luigi/70% of the cast hers is giving you a 10+ frame punish if you spot dodge it or avoid it otherwise.

I've been playing in and around Palutena my entire smash4 "career" thus far. Over time I've gone from hype into "complete gimmick", even with customs. Her only options no matter what she does is grab. Customs only allow her to more readily follow up from grab (very good, but did anyone ever think that she requires ground space to get those grab follow ups and being anywhere near a ledge nullifies it? [more so causes her to S.D or take you with her at best]) and otherwise just has a vroom vroom fly around hope for an opportunity to fall into your lap game plan ala Brawl Sonic (which is all ALSM has got going with her tbqh). With customs off she genuinely should never kill anyone, she truly has the least ability in this category in the game in my opinion.


Also everyone underrates their up throws because they're too busy down throwing instinctively instead. A lot of up throws are doing lovely 90 degree work and scale in such a way to come out as less knockback than their dthrows will at certain percent. ZSS isn't one of those unfortunately.
But yes, Falcon's kills at the "good" up throw kill percents plus is a reliable combo start up throw a lot of the time.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Random: the most underrated throw in the game is Falcon's U-throw. Discuss.

When I wrote my whole Bowser spiel, Falcon's U-throw (along with Marths) was one of the the throws I could not get out of my head.
Up throwing in general is valuable simply because it puts your opposition pretty much universally in an incredibly poor situation. Any Throw that sends them up ~ 90 degrees is delicious to me. Down Throw gets capitalized on a lot yet U-throw gives a lot of chase potential and frankly has great potential.

 

[Hippieslayer]

And, you're arguing semantics why again? Where the hell do you even disagree with me? I never said anywhere that I think Palutena is amazing. But she's at least better than the ten characters I listed previously.

Palutena has good grab reward because her pummel is actually really good, and D-throw F-air is still 12%. Combine the two, you have good overall guaranteed damage from throws. The positional advantage is still strong enough to bait people into other aerial followups at relatively low risk if you're looking for KOs. You can DI out of Ganon and Falcon's D-throw combos a lot more easily, but their D-throws are still very strong for setups regardless.

Also another thing. If you're getting punished for using Teleport on stage to get out of traps, the matchup is either Sheik/Sonic/Mac/Falcon, or you're actually just doing it wrong. The only really bad thing about Teleport is actually that your opponent risks nothing for trying to spike you out of it for sweetspotting the ledge (plus, ledge trumps are scary for Palutena).



Random: the most underrated throw in the game is Falcon's U-throw. Discuss.

Nah she's worse than all of them except for Zelda, Bowser and perhaps GnW. All of those other characters have stuff going for them. They can do some different stuff they aren't limited to a select few things countable on 1 hand for their gameplan.

 

[Dre89]

No Weakness: .

Recovery

Also can you please explain why you think the only counterplay to his dashgrab is spotdodging.

Like explain why you don't consider jumping, running away, pivot grabbing and beating it out with an attack counterplay options.

 

[Blobface]

U-throw's are great on Battlefield where they can dump people on platforms in a terrible position, which a lot of D-throws can't do. I can't speak much for other characters, but Ganon's super patty cake attack (U-throw) doesn't see much use because Ganon has about 86 moves that put people in that 90 degree positions anyway, including Dash Attack which combos off of D-throw anyway..

 

[TTTTTsd]

My main doesn't have to worry about U-Throwing. He's one of the few who really has no excuse to NOT D-Throw outside of some other chars.

Doc's D-Throw has perfect KB for most weights, and the one thing about Doc's D-throw that makes me think it's really good (as a matter of fact it IS really good) is how little you can DI out of it. It goes at the classic 80 degree angle, which is great.

Though I do agree U-Throws on other characters should be considered, it's just interesting about who is exempt from this rule, as well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I would leave it at average, arguably below (I think Marth's grab game is average, yet I could argue better than Palutenas with ease). She also has the laggiest melee grab animation out there (and dash grab too). Dthrow to fair being all she has past a certain point and never ever ever having any means of forcing a bair or dash attack (her only remotely viable kill moves because you never should be dealing with uair). You may have already noticed but her grab is the only option she has and unlike Diddy/Luigi/etc hers is giving you a 10+ frame punish if you spot dodge it.


Also everyone underrates their up throws because they're too busy down throwing instinctively instead. A lot of up throws are doing lovely 90 degree work and scale in such a way to come out as less knockback than their dthrows will at certain percent. ZSS isn't one of those unfortunately.
But yes, Falcon's kills at the "good" up throw kill percents plus is a reliable combo start up throw a lot of the time.

Marth with customs I guess has Crescent Slash, and D-throw combos into some things at really low percents. But is that really better than Palutena's grab game? Her side throws do more damage, and her pummel is one that does more damage over time than Marth's.

I mean aside from the throws that kill and actually give combos, Falcon is just in general the single most dangerous character at punishing above him. Jumps high, has good fall speed, U-air frametraps airdodge in his sleep, and runs really fast so that he can actually stay below his opponent. I don't think there is a single character in the game besides Falcon who benefits nearly as much from generic air traps.

Also I wouldn't U-throw with Jigglypuff unless I was trying to set up Leaping Rest kills or just going for chip damage at low percents. Jiggs benefits a lot more from throwing her opponent sideways. Similarly Ganondorf really doesn't want to U-throw except in really specific matchups given his U-throw is laggy and he doesn't have a lot of run speed to chase aerial movement.

Nah she's worse than all of them except for Zelda, Bowser and perhaps GnW. All of those other characters have stuff going for them. They can do some different stuff they aren't limited to a select few things countable on 1 hand for their gameplan.

Kirby's game as I recall is almost identical to Palutena's but he's lighter, worse at getting out of bad situations, and slower moving. I guess some of his really situational combo starters like D-air are better though Palutena's though he does less overall damage from throws, and characters he can edgeguard with Stone die really early to him. Plus he has that annoying crouch I guess. He could be underrated, as I stated earlier.

Toon Link just fails against shield until you're at B-throw KO range, and he doesn't even have anything to edgeguard with. Palutena has decent grab reward and all of her aerials are pretty useful in edgeguard situations in contrast.

WFT has overall the worst normals in the game and doesn't really do much aside from try to annoy you with her weaker (but still useful) version of Charge Shot without her godlike custom specials.

Lucina's overall reward really isn't better than Palutena's except in some edgeguard situations in some matchups. She also really isn't much safer on block. She probably does better against Rosalina to her credit, but that's all I can think of.

Samus's gameplan is almost entirely Charge Shot, and if she doesn't get to use that against you easily, her gameplan is mostly pretty bad, especially given her grab is also really slow and not very rewarding (though she does survive a very long time and has decent enough edgeguards).

Little Mac almost automatically loses on certain stages. Sure he has other obvious problems, but I'll let that one sink in by itself.

DDD's gameplan literally doesn't work against several characters when you factor that his entire midrange game hinges on Gordo and not getting screwed over by it.

Palutena isn't great, but she has the basic required tools to make plays in neutral (even if her neutral is often risky). Grab damage is decent, negative state isn't too awful most matchups. Aerials are also actually good for edgeguards.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Kirby has falling U-air, D-air, N-air to Jab, and hell even F-air out of a Fast-fall, actually better to put it as Kirby can string/combo something off of every aerial he flipping has at one percent or the other, and straight dirty tilts in CQC. Since the Utilt will also start combos and the Dtilt trip also leads to follow ups. Plus some actual ghost of a chance to break a shield, that she somehow doesn't manage to have despite having all that shield damage bonus on her tilts...

Actually I must admit I'm confused how are Kirby and Paletuna's game the same when they can't play at all the same. Kirby doesn't really go for anything resembling a throw combo except for a low % B-throw or a Hup cancelled follow up out of a throw which are rather short lived. Sure he has a wicked pummel...but then he can also connect into that pummel off of a damn lot more then a Jab. Paletuna can't "box" and her off-stage game isn't as powerful in the slightest. I must admit I don't understand how they have similar games with such notably different options,means of reward on the ground, in the air, disadvantage states and off-stage games. Notwithstanding that Copy can bring Kirby additional options in neutral (hello Needles) that Paletuna cannot at all replicate.

What am I missing?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Kirby has falling U-air, D-air, N-air to Jab, and hell even F-air out of a Fast-fall, actually better to put it as Kirby can string/combo something off of every aerial he flipping has at one percent or the other, and straight dirty tilts in CQC. Since the Utilt will also start combos and the Dtilt trip also leads to follow ups.

Actually I must admit I'm confused how are Kirby and Paletuna's game the same when they can't play at all the same. Kirby doesn't really go for anything resembling a throw combo except for a low % B-throw or a Hup cancelled follow up out of a throw. Sure he has a wicked pummel...but then he can also connect into that pummel off of a damn lot more then a Jab. I must admit I don't understand how they have similar games with such notably different options,means of reward on the ground, in the air, and off-stage games. Notwithstanding that Copy can bring Kirby additional options in neutral (hello Needles) that Paletuna cannot at all replicate.

What am I missing?

The way I see it, both of them spend a lot of time making really unsafe decisions in neutral, and betting that certain gimmicks in their moveset will put them ahead. Kirby has his combo setups from aerials and cheeky shenanigans with Inhale. Palutena has weird invul frames on DA/B-air. Both of them then actually do well in juggle and edgeguard situations if they ever get clean opportunities.

Kirby does have good tilts unlike Palutena so I guess the comparison isn't perfect.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I've seen some talk on the previous page about King Deded maybe being one of the worst characters in the game with customs off, can someone explain that on to me? I feel like I missed something as he seems at last reasonably playable.

 

[Antonykun]

I've seen some talk on the previous page about King Deded maybe being one of the worst characters in the game with customs off, can someone explain that on to me? I feel like I missed something as he seems at last reasonably playable.

For the record I am very willing to say Swordfighter is very playable and he's still one of the worst characters in Smash 4.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I hold Bowser in similar regard only his recovery is better in multiple contexts, he is not lacking in Kill power by any stretch of the imagination. These are characters whose disadvantage state are far too unreliable for me to hold them in favour. I make the statement I made before, DDD has problems landing, and his recovery isn't infallible, yet between Multi-jumps, his N-air, and the initial armor of his recovery. I gave him the benefit of the doubt to have several more real time coming back to the stage then the Dog or turtle, and he'll be juggled less then the turtle.

It's odd I've found myself hard on Bowser from the jump, and nothings really changed my initial impression other then the idea each week that says to me he's even worse then expected.

These aren't "X character is **** from the jump and can't win a game" impressions but "I don't see how someone can say they'll just play around this weakness with real certainty when your character can be proc'd into this state fairly well." You don't really play around Little Mac's recovery disadvantage, it's generally accepted if you're knocked off stage, call jesus. You take your advantage in neutral so that you don't get off-stage in the first place. Neither of these characters are as good as Mac on the ground, you are going to be put in the air or off-stage and you are poorly equipped to deal with this when it happens.

I can say Mac doesn't like the air, but **** it, I can visibly react to Bowsers chief ways of landing, if I snatch your double jump I automatically feel zero fear because you can't bait out ****. Mac can still threaten a counter, hell a Haymaker or be as nutty as to try an aerial simply because I have to carry some respect for the counter. If you air dodge, your options upon landing are *So slow* that even if you don't suffer air-dodge lag multiple characters won't be put in a real frame disadvantage against you as you can't surmount an attack that they cannot simple shield, clash or roll away from if not outright beat out by buffering a grab/attack.

DDD doesn't work like this, he has heinous air speed that is exploitable and like Bowser poor landing options but the reality is he has multi jumps (as does Kirby who to me has this issue to a lesser degree) and I can lose these bets as a result of his third or fourth jump. More importantly if I lose these bets his N-air is a more frightening entity then Bowsers, if I goof DDD has his Dtilt.

I don't see how Bowser holds an advantage on Kirby, Shulk, Ike, Charizard, Diddy, Sheik, Pikachu, Marth, Lucina, Yoshi, Link, Toon Link, Pit, Dark Pit, Blinking Sword Fighter, Fox.. Actually to make a long story short. If you have any of these: General good buttons, Disjointed anti-airs, solid Dash grabs, a wicked advantage state, a possible cape effect, strong ground based movement, Super Armor, then frankly I think you automatically put this MU in your favor the majority of the time.

Worst in the game? I would not be so bold, but I feel even opinions of "mid" are just residual hype that has yet to die. Didn't Gimpyfish say Bowser was good back when Brawl was first released? At least I remember Bowser hype on Brawls release too that did not pan out.

A lot could be said moving into 1.06, but I still see little in those two characters and MVD's apex performance despite placing well made me only feel stronger about the Dogs eventual decline.

As a Ganondorf main, I have to say that playing Bowser makes me feel helpless when being juggled. Dash Slash/Slam at least makes it not feel "put down your controller" hopeless, but it's still not very good and worse than Ganon. At least Ganondorf's Nair and Wizkick need to be respected, and his landing aerials often have enough shieldstun and pushback to evade punishment. Wizkick's shield damage and the shockwave can even bail you out when shielded sometimes. It's not a walk in the park by any means but you actually can instill enough fear into your opponent to have a chance. Bowser just feels like a sitting duck in the air and his Dair/Bowser Bomb are easier to avoid/punish than Wizkick.

 

[Lavani]

I've seen some talk on the previous page about King Deded maybe being one of the worst characters in the game with customs off, can someone explain that on to me? I feel like I missed something as he seems at last reasonably playable.

Laggy (and even surprisingly weak for a heavyweight [doesn't kill terribly early, damage per hit isn't crazy - his frame 17 sweetspot usmash does the same damage as all parts of Mario's frame 7 usmash and only kills about 15% earlier, for example]) attacks, poor movement specs, combo and juggle fodder, awful approach options, to summarize.

Mainly he is alright at keeping opponents out and is excellent at edgeguarding, but struggles hard against opponents that aren't willing to approach him (or worse, force him to approach) and doesn't pack the amount of punch you'd expect from a heavyweight.

@FimPhym or @Smooth Criminal could write a dissertation on him if that isn't enough for you, I'm sure.

And like Antonykun was saying about other lesser characters, they can be playable and still be one of the worst characters.

 

[Djent]

I'm less concerned about her attributes in theory and more concerned about her performance vs. the rest of the cast. What important matchups does win or go even with customs on? AFAIK (with much theorycraft):

The Baddish:
Nope, she gets wrecked.
I'm guessing it's not good. I've heard @Punishment Divine complaining about it.
A weird matchup where neither character's regular "cheese" works. I still think Pikachu wins slightly.
Honestly, Super Speed wishes it were Spin Dash. This one probably goes to Sonic, although it's not terrible.
She has vastly superior reward off of a grab, but how does she land one on Fox? He punishes ridiculously hard.
@ Shaya has said that ZSS mauls tall characters. Palutena seems like the perfect victim for this honestly.
What does a character with slow, low-reward normals do against Falcon? Lose neutral. Somewhat mitigated by incredibly punishing juggles, but she has to take serious risk in order to land them and she gets punished hard too.

The Even and/or Good:
Her mobility specs are a huge asset here. This is one rare MU where Autoreticle might see some use. Just don't screw up. Probably even still due to the disparity in punishment.
Two characters with good mobility but nonetheless awkward neutral fish for silly grab punishes and can recover for days. I honestly see this as pretty even.
I honestly don't think DK is that good even with customs, but it's still notable as DK is winning stuff. My hunch is that she wins (see: ALSM vs. Emory).
His normals aren't all that fast and his approaches aren't all that great. Oh, and he has grab issues too! But don't get hit. Can escape from disadvantage reasonably well. Hey, he sounds like us! Evenish.

The I'm Not Sure:

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Recovery

Also can you please explain why you think the only counterplay to his dashgrab is spotdodging.

Like explain why you don't consider jumping, running away, pivot grabbing and beating it out with an attack counterplay options.

See, allegedly Diddy's weakness is recovery, but he still has Monkey Flip to help recover without putting him in helpless? That never made much sense to me.

Like, sure, Rocketbarrel Boost is bootycheeks if you get Diddy low enough, but it's generally a last resort, he can charge it if there's falling room, and even if you gimp it the barrels can still fly off and blow you up anyway.

Am I missing something?

 

[FullMoon]

I'm less concerned about her attributes in theory and more concerned about her performance vs. the rest of the cast. What important matchups does win or go even with customs on? AFAIK (with much theorycraft):

His normals aren't all that fast and his approaches aren't all that great. Oh, and he has grab issues too! But don't get hit. Can escape from disadvantage reasonably well. Hey, he sounds like us! Evenish.

In a customs environment, Palutena needs to be a bit careful with Super Speed because if she dashes right into a Shifting Shuriken, Greninja will do his typical Up-Smash business and if Palutena has Lightweight on... Yeah she dies very quickly. By running Super Speed Palutena cannot reflect Greninja's shurikens, leaving him able to use them without much trouble too, so for the most part Greninja doesn't really need to approach.

Also Greninja's dash grab is one of the best, his standing grab is the only one with issues.

I do feel the MU between Custom Palutena and Custom Greninja is even though. Greninja can kill Palutena very early and quickly if she messes up though, but I guess the same applies to the opposite considering some of the crazy stuff custom Palutena can do.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

As a Ganondorf main, I have to say that playing Bowser makes me feel helpless when being juggled. Dash Slash/Slam at least makes it not feel "put down your controller" hopeless, but it's still not very good and worse than Ganon. At least Ganondorf's Nair and Wizkick need to be respected, and his landing aerials often have enough shieldstun and pushback to evade punishment. Wizkick's shield damage and the shockwave can even bail you out when shielded sometimes. It's not a walk in the park by any means but you actually can instill enough fear into your opponent to have a chance. Bowser just feels like a sitting duck in the air and his Dair/Bowser Bomb are easier to avoid/punish than Wizkick.

I say it because I honestly cannot think of a character that has this weakness more apparent then Bowser.
The air dodge lag addition does not help at all. Players end up just walking under Bowser if they have the walk speed, and you don't need to exactly be Marth to do so, since they know they can react. If Bowser could land my opinion of him would shoot up very quickly, there are good prospects within his kit but they aren't good enough to outweigh this aspect.

Falcons disadvantage stage gets talked about but what is Bowsers in all seriousness by comparison.

 

[Shaya]

I probably don't play the Palutena match up that efficiently, because I'm in the air too much where things like dash attack, bair and jab are pretty alright anti-airs. I just know the main things (how to avoid death grabs). But nevertheless, zair is godlike.

ZSS is easier for her than most to follow up from throws, but the main thing to remember is to DI her nair to get out of it or you can die at like 40-60% (but from there she can't reliably get nair so its k~). Always away, always down; you want her to follow you off stage, that's really dangerous for her as her aerials are bat**** insanely laggy and she drops like a rock. ZSS can hold away all the way to the blast zone and not be in trouble, the opposite is not even 1/3rd true in Palutena's case.

Other than that, jab and up tilt will beat her jab mix ups/her entire ground game bar dash attack. Once you start to know how jump glide/super speed are very static trajectories that are hard to ledge snap you throw out moves (in ZSS's case it's easy with Down-B or dash grab) in that general direction, Denti already knows to throw bananas in that direction and every character can generally get a free punish/kill move for it. It would not surprise me if Falcon Punch is an applicable and reliable punish.

Is she in the air facing backwards? I wonder what's about to happen!? Forward roll into her or time the power shield for another free punish/kill move; she really can't punish that roll with nair or fair. She has nothing else to land with, she barely has a fast fall landing dodge mix up and her jumps only keep the situation going against her; turn around grab is at best 8 frames away.

Other than that, it's not that hard to play safe while lightweight is up and she has no guaranteed follow ups at mid percent without super speed (which has restrictive usage). Expect dash grab or dash attack. Again, rolling in is pretty good, while rolling back is the massively disrespectful "heu heu heu suicide trying to kill me off stage time" play of legends (or "I'm an idiot").

It's definitely disadvantaged. It probably wouldn't be that bad if it wasn't for ZSS jab winning everything on the ground and zair in the air.

I've speculated that if it is possible for Palutena to supplement back air into her grab follow ups she'll actually be a lot more solid/less gimmicky character who could really be feared. I believe Palutena is dead to my friend at this stage though so I don't know if I'll ever see it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

See, allegedly Diddy's weakness is recovery, but he still has Monkey Flip to help recover without putting him in helpless? That never made much sense to me.

Like, sure, Rocketbarrel Boost is bootycheeks if you get Diddy low enough, but it's generally a last resort, he can charge it if there's falling room, and even if you gimp it the barrels can still fly off and blow you up anyway.

Am I missing something?

Diddy's recovery has fairly good distance if you've got a chance to charge the rocketbarrels and has a good number of mixups. Low/mid level Diddies tend to fear using rocketbarrels and always Monkey Flip when possible, and this is punishable when done predictably, but high-level Diddies are able to properly control the barrels when they need to, and will mix things up when necessary. This makes Diddy's recovery better than a lot of characters, simply because it's versatile enough to keep you honest and avoid situations where you're helpless. It is a relative weakness though, as his recovery is substantially worse than that of other high tiers like Sheik, Pika, and Sonic, and is weak compared to the rest of his game.

 

[Djent]

stuff

Her problems offstage are why she should really be taking Warp (variable trajectory + better vertical height). Other than that, your assessment sounds about right.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I've seen some talk on the previous page about King Deded maybe being one of the worst characters in the game with customs off, can someone explain that on to me? I feel like I missed something as he seems at last reasonably playable.

LAst time i recall being the worst and being unplayale are 2 different things.

 

[Lavani]

that's really dangerous for her as her aerials are bat**** insanely laggy

Uair is absurdly laggy (around a 60 frame commitment), her other aerials aren't bad; nair in particular she can act like, ~10 frames after the active frames end.

Just wanted to correct that.

 

[Conda]

Speaking of MK, Ito is taking games off Zer0. WITH METAKNIGHT. On Spooky's stream right now.

EDIT: okay, game. Singular. That went south fast.

Mostly due to mistakes. Same goes for the Ness and Fox (Villain) that made it to the top 16. Unfortunate to see those kinds of eliminations.

Side note, I'm watching the recorded version of the finals, and am I the only one that really likes these commentators?

Commentator love is good love. Keep it up mate, we appreciate it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Diddy's recovery has fairly good distance if you've got a chance to charge the rocketbarrels and has a good number of mixups. Low/mid level Diddies tend to fear using rocketbarrels and always Monkey Flip when possible, and this is punishable when done predictably, but high-level Diddies are able to properly control the barrels when they need to, and will mix things up when necessary. This makes Diddy's recovery better than a lot of characters, simply because it's versatile enough to keep you honest and avoid situations where you're helpless. It is a relative weakness though, as his recovery is substantially worse than that of other high tiers like Sheik, Pika, and Sonic, and is weak compared to the rest of his game.

Fair points all around, but if the worst thing you can say about his recovery is that it's not as good as Sheik/Pikachu/Sonic's, then I don't think it can be considered "bad." So with that in mind I'm not sure why recovery is still cited as a Diddy weakness sometimes.

 

[webbedspace]

http://www.twitch.tv/UltraArcade

Denti vs a custom villager in grand finals at a local.

For those who missed the previous set, which featured Villager dittos (!) who proceed to gentleman to Pilotwings (!!!): http://www.twitch.tv/ultraarcade/b/646321879?t=3h29m15s

 

[Dre89]

See, allegedly Diddy's weakness is recovery, but he still has Monkey Flip to help recover without putting him in helpless? That never made much sense to me.

Like, sure, Rocketbarrel Boost is bootycheeks if you get Diddy low enough, but it's generally a last resort, he can charge it if there's falling room, and even if you gimp it the barrels can still fly off and blow you up anyway.

Am I missing something?

You just have to cover the sideb onto the stage and force him to upb from below. He has to go really low, if he does it too high up people can just hit him with an aerial whilst he's charging and he's dead. It then becomes a mindgame, because the gimper can only be offstage for a limited amount of time before they have to return to the stage. So either Diddy releases it before they set up for the gimp, or Diddy stalls them out before releasing the charge (you can go into the bottowm blastzone and make it back).

Don't get me wrong Diddy has recovery mixups to get back on stage, it's certainly not free or anything. But some characters are very good at gimping him, Villager in particular. The reason why Villager is particularly good at gimping Diddy is that he doesn't have to play the upb mindgame. He can cover the sdeb onto the stage really easily with slingshot and sideb, and force Diddy to upb from below. But unlike other people, Villager doesn't have to predict when Diddy will release the charge and time his gimp accordingly. Once he's forced Diddy to upb from below he can just charge fsmash then release it on reaction.

 

[Yikarur]

and we're probably about to observe more Yoshi nerfs due to Japan's rating of him and we're just going to sit here being like "what was good about him in the first place?" when it happens. Poor Yoshi mains :<

I'm so scared of that

 

[Conda]

Diddy rarely dies due to gimps. Kindly asking that people stop bringing his recovery up as a weakness, it's not. If anything, it's 'as average' as Mario and such, and even then it's better.

Also, please refrain from nerf/buff-related talk. It's actually completely useless and not helpful to fellow readers, not to mention potentially endless. Just a friendly reminder not to indulge in off-topic and we-know-better topics.