Character Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

I find Falcon's uthrow very situational, basically just a kill option if you get a grab at very high %s + rage on low ceiling stages when bthrow isn't the better option. Dthrow is way too good of a setup to trade for uthrow, and dthrow + uair puts the opponent into a very similar situation as uthrow and does more damage.

 

[Conda]

I find Falcon's uthrow very situational, basically just a kill option if you get a grab at very high %s + rage on low ceiling stages when bthrow isn't the better option. Dthrow is way too good of a setup to trade for uthrow, and dthrow + uair puts the opponent into a very similar situation as uthrow and does more damage.

Didn't I literally just play you on For Glory? Like 3 minutes ago? Holy crap. Good games, ton of fun fighting a good Ganon/Falcon player.

I haven't played Smash 4 seriously for weeks, but I've been playing around more with Ness/Mario/Fox lately. Funny that my Ness/Zard did best against you, as Zard is someone I dropped a while ago after being tired of being a heavy. I've been practising commentary and busy with work, along with doing my usual constant Smash research (the commentator life yo ). Good games! Up for some more sometime. I'm in that eternal state of picking a main. Doubt it'll ever happen haha.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I find Falcon's uthrow very situational, basically just a kill option if you get a grab at very high %s + rage on low ceiling stages when bthrow isn't the better option. Dthrow is way too good of a setup to trade for uthrow, and dthrow + uair puts the opponent into a very similar situation as uthrow and does more damage.

Past a certain percent range, you can't really combo out of D-throw after they DI it, and also when you grab someone by the ledge, the positional advantage from D-throw isn't as useful in most matchups unless your opponent has extremely limited recovery options + weak aerials.

U-throw in contrast virtually always puts people in a position where you can easily followup regardless of stage position and percent, and it does more damage than D-throw. Why this throw doesn't get used more confuses me, honestly. I would argue it's actually his best throw outside of the guaranteed low% combos from D-throw. No other character in this game benefits to the same extent from simply putting your opponent really far upwards. Consider also the fact that you can get kills with U-throw by simply trapping people into U-air high up in the air.

I'm not that great with Falcon, but I really just honestly need to emphasize how braindead good Falcon's air traps are when they're positioned correctly. Using U-throw to set up air traps is both less input intensive and less situational than D-throw at higher percents.

 

[Trifroze]

Didn't I literally just play you on For Glory? Like 3 minutes ago? Holy crap. Good games, ton of fun fighting a good Ganon/Falcon player.

I haven't played Smash 4 seriously for weeks, but I've been playing around more with Ness/Mario/Fox lately. Funny that my Ness/Zard did best against you, as Zard is someone I dropped a while ago after being tired of being a heavy. I've been practising commentary and busy with work, along with doing my usual constant Smash research (the commentator life yo ). Good games! Up for some more sometime. I'm in that eternal state of picking a main. Doubt it'll ever happen haha.

Indeed, I recognized you as soon as I joined. GGs! I myself don't find anyone else than Falcon and Ganon particularly interesting to play, hoping Mewtwo will change that though and that Snake makes a comeback eventually. Ness is a solid character and I think I didn't respect Charizard's punishing capability enough in those games. Hopefully he and Ganon get buffed soon though. Also yeah I'm up for more in the future.

Past a certain percent range, you can't really combo out of D-throw after they DI it, and also when you grab someone by the ledge, the positional advantage from D-throw isn't as useful in most matchups unless your opponent has extremely limited recovery options + weak aerials.

U-throw in contrast virtually always puts people in a position where you can easily followup regardless of stage position and percent, and it does more damage than D-throw. Why this throw doesn't get used more confuses me, honestly. I would argue it's actually his best throw outside of the guaranteed low% combos from D-throw. No other character in this game benefits to the same extent from simply putting your opponent really far upwards. Consider also the fact that you can get kills with U-throw by simply trapping people into U-air high up in the air.

I'm not that great with Falcon, but I really just honestly need to emphasize how braindead good Falcon's air traps are when they're positioned correctly. Using U-throw to set up air traps is both less input intensive and less situational than D-throw at higher percents.

That's the thing about dthrow though, at higher percents when follow-ups aren't guaranteed the opponent has 3 options in airdodging, challenging you or jumping. The first one is of course the most dangerous option and can setup for a knee or any other aerial at that height. Challenging is dangerous as well because either Falcon throws an uair which basically either beats everything out or clashes with it which is still a positional advantage for Falcon, or he baits your attack out and punishes harder with basically anything again, and of course by baiting something out you cover both airdodging and challenging. Hence, jumping away at high %s is the safest option, but what it does is put your opponent at a similar position that uthrow would except now your opponent doesn't have any jumps left which is a really big deal.

This is not to say uthrow couldn't do this better in some scenarios such as with floaty characters without much aerial options. When you start to DI Falcon's dthrow at high %s however, this often puts you offstage which is, for most characters, even worse than above Falcon. In these situations I always use either fthrow or bthrow though to force opponents offstage, and haven't had a real niche for uthrow aside from situational kills.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

But they just don't seem to be able to fit into the meta in NA and we're probably about to observe more Yoshi nerfs due to Japan's rating of him and we're just going to sit here being like "what was good about him in the first place?" when it happens. Poor Yoshi mains :<

This has been tingling my spider sense for a while, and it would really be disappointing. Yoshi appears to have a great toolset at first glance, but his moves have very little productive synergy. He's severely overrated by players who are new to the competitive scene, and it's a lot to do with how he suffers from a lack of high-level representation. So when someone runs into a really good Yoshi for the first time and get steamrolled, they think, "this character is just really good." There's not a lot of high-level Yoshi counterplay, because there's not a lot of high-level Yoshi.

I don't even fully understand what Japan is basing its tier lists on. Results? From who, Yoshidora? I know Japan has a penchant for making unorthodox characters viable (what's up, Abandango and aMSa), but I'm still seeing an awful lot of Sheik/Diddy dominance there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is not to say uthrow couldn't do this better in some scenarios such as with floaty characters without much aerial options. When you start to DI Falcon's dthrow at high %s however, this often puts you offstage which is, for most characters, even worse than above Falcon. In these situations I always use either fthrow or bthrow though to force opponents offstage, and haven't had a real niche for uthrow aside from situational kills.

This where I disagree. Falcon is overall one of the less scary characters when it comes to edgeguarding outside of his D-air and sourspot F-air on more predictable recoveries. In general though Falcon has a much harder time edgeguarding than he does juggling when his tools for hitting things below him (as well as in front of him) are not nearly as reliable. It's not like edgeguarding with Ganon who has some of the most massive lingering aerials in the game in his N-air, U-air, and F-air that can cover wide arcs in several directions, including below him. Falcon's good high priority aerials are U-air and B-air, both of which offstage are by far more telegraphed and require specific commitments to set up and also still don't have the ability to reliably cover things below Falcon. More commonly when I watch Falcon players, even good ones, go for throwing their opponent directly offstage, this leads to situations where they end up being forced to guess in ledge trap situations.

Instead, if you used U-throw by the ledge, in several matchups you would have a lot more time to react to your opponent drifting downwards even if they tried to get under you to reset to the ledge. Something to keep in mind is this type of setup tends to not require you to go offstage quite as deep to punish your opponent's drifting due to the limits of changing direction in midair, which gives you more options to pursue them. And if they recover high, that's great given you're Falcon who has some of the most reliable guaranteed air traps in the game.

 

[Sinister Slush]

What's even more confusing about all the Yoshi hype in japan is that most of the videos of Yoshi winning is on wifi, and any videos back then that was an offline tournament the Yoshi is seen losing every single match.

 

[Ffamran]

What's even more confusing about all the Yoshi hype in japan is that most of the videos of Yoshi winning is on wifi, and any videos back then that was an offline tournament the Yoshi is seen losing every single match.

So, is Japan basing the tier list on online matches? If so, then there's some skewed performance. I haven't seen Yoshidora yet and I should, but only one Yoshi, Xeon, stands out to me and he's Puerto Rican. He came close to winning a tournament and was even with his opponent, a Fox. It was a war of the Up Smashes, but it was the closest I have seen a Yoshi win a tournament even if it wasn't a well-known one. You remember that, right, Slush?

Edit: Video of the grand finals of Xeon's Yoshi vs. Kraven's Fox for reference: https://youtu.be/BCYKpaTwrPw.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yes I remember seeing it. Best of 3 for their finals is weird and feel like only reason fox won that.
As for japan, most likely a good portion of their results based off wifi. Also only plays on 3 stages + omegas so yeah, another reason why their list might seem weird for some people.

Battlefield FD and Smashville only basically.

 

[Ffamran]

Yes I remember seeing it. Best of 3 for their finals is weird and feel like only reason fox won that.
As for japan, most likely a good portion of their results based off wifi. Also only plays on 3 stages + omegas so yeah, another reason why their list might seem weird for some people.

Battlefield FD and Smashville only basically.

There was another match before that too which was probably a bracket reset.

Is Japan the only major place to not use other stages? Little Mac works differently on other stages and Yoshi being able to run straight ahead without platforms might make it seem like Yoshi's better except I don't know how Yoshi works with platforms and low/high ceiling stages, etc.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yoshi players have commented from the release of the 3ds version that "Yoshi is good in this game, but he's not of the calibur players are saying he is". I guess some could take it that these impressions were just downplaying the dinosaur but I agreed with it. Yoshi is akin to Pit from my perspective, these are two solid characters, that can absolutely win games, but neither of them really really operates on a small or large extent above the point of balance which is really where you get to talk Top tier characters.

I still don't follow the japanese perspective on the dinosaur. I'd pair him in whatever category Pit operates in instinctively or where Fox hangs. Fox and/or Pit are Yoshi's partners in crime when it comes to relative strength.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yoshi players have commented from the release of the 3ds version that "Yoshi is good in this game, but he's not of the calibur players are saying he is". I guess some could take it that these impressions were just downplaying the dinosaur but I agreed with it. Yoshi is akin to Pit from my perspective, these are two solid characters, that can absolutely win games, but neither of them really really operates on a small or large extent above the point of balance which is really where you get to talk Top tier characters.

I still don't follow the japanese perspective on the dinosaur. I'd pair him in whatever category Pit operates in instinctively or where Fox hangs. Fox and/or Pit are Yoshi's partners in crime when it comes to relative strength.

tbh those 3 characters are some of the most well balanced characters in the game.

 

[|RK|]

Random thought: I wish that players like ZeRo would take on low tier mains. Sure we see their skill when they have a lot of options, but I want to see how they compare when they have fewer options.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi players have commented from the release of the 3ds version that "Yoshi is good in this game, but he's not of the calibur players are saying he is".

Not sure who, and not saying they're wrong or anything he's.... ok I guess? But what most of us actually say is he's pretty much the same with either using opposite moves in neutral or advantage (bair/pivot grab in neutral now fair and short hop egg toss) and that his problems in brawl with killing is still an issue.

I still don't follow the japanese perspective on the dinosaur. I'd pair him in whatever category Pit operates in instinctively or where Fox hangs. Fox and/or Pit are Yoshi's partners in crime when it comes to relative strength.

Nobody does if it's not on front page of leddit or not on their fb/twitter feed, so no harm there.
To be honest, the characters I'd rank for a category like that wouldn't have Fox or Pit cause those two at least see play and win some tournaments where as Yoshi hasn't in any states.

The characters I'd throw in place with Yoshi would be like Megaman, maybe Wario Pikachu and Falcon.
Even with representation none of those characters are winning anything yet rated highly. Ex: Pikachu was on a lot of peoples top 5 and still is but hasn't won anything.

 

[Firefoxx]

The only tournament I've seen Yoshi do well at recently was that one from 1-2 weeks ago in STL that @Thinkaman pointed this thread towards. I think the finals had a Yoshi in it, and it might have been a Yoshi ditto?

Side note: I don't know if this says more about me or about Yoshi as a character but I CONSTANTLY forget that Yoshi is even in this game.

 

[Nocally]

The characters I'd throw in place with Yoshi would be like Megaman, maybe Wario Pikachu and Falcon.
Even with representation none of those characters are winning anything yet rated highly. Ex: Pikachu was on a lot of peoples top 5 and still is but hasn't won anything.

Esam won a customs tournament against MVD´s Diddy kong... Even though Esam has semi retired, it is something at least.

 

[Sinister Slush]

So we should reference every small local?
Ok, Boss does very well with Luigi.

 

[Ffamran]

So we should reference every small local?
Ok, Boss does very well with Luigi.

Is S@X considered a small local? And what about the NorCal and SoCal tournaments? If anything's a small local, it would be something like a Wisconsin local which as far as I know is mostly Melee-centered... And there's the issue where some places aren't known at all or don't post their results for whatever valid reason. Case in point: the Puerto Rican Smash community which recently uploaded their SSB4 videos and have fantastic plays of a Yoshi, Fox, Falco, Mega Man, Triple D, and more, but they're not as well-known.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Is S@X considered a small local? And what about the NorCal and SoCal tournaments? If anything's a small local, it would be something like a Wisconsin local which as far as I know is mostly Melee-centered... And there's the issue where some places aren't known at all or don't post their results for whatever valid reason. Case in point: the Puerto Rican Smash community which recently uploaded their SSB4 videos and have fantastic plays of a Yoshi, Fox, Falco, Mega Man, Triple D, and more, but they're not as well-known.

Fine xanadu is a big local.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Is S@X considered a small local? And what about the NorCal and SoCal tournaments? If anything's a small local, it would be something like a Wisconsin local which as far as I know is mostly Melee-centered... And there's the issue where some places aren't known at all or don't post their results for whatever valid reason. Case in point: the Puerto Rican Smash community which recently uploaded their SSB4 videos and have fantastic plays of a Yoshi, Fox, Falco, Mega Man, Triple D, and more, but they're not as well-known.

Just confirming that Wisconsin is a highly Melee/PM-centric state. Smash 4 has a good following, but when the bigger(est?) stream we have is called MeleeMilwaukee, it becomes hard for the Smash 4 scene to get recognition. Madison has a great scene though, and the unknown area of Wausau has newbie players trying to get better in the game. /off topic, sorry.

 

[Ffamran]

Just confirming that Wisconsin is a highly Melee/PM-centric state. Smash 4 has a good following, but when the bigger(est?) stream we have is called MeleeMilwaukee, it becomes hard for the Smash 4 scene to get recognition. Madison has a great scene though, and the unknown area of Wausau has newbie players trying to get better in the game. /off topic, sorry.

Yeah, I know, I checked... Everything's on Facebook it seems. We at least @Red Ryu is on stream.

Speaking of which, are there any notable Midwest SSB4 players? I think Katakiri's in the Illinois scene and that's it. He along with Unknown are the only other Meta Knight players which kind of skews the whole "is Meta Knight good or not" when you only have 3 players and 1 player, lloD, who secondaries him and doesn't do that great because he's a Peach player. Assuming that Japan has a ton of Yoshis, there's probably that to lead to why Japan is overrating Yoshi. Let's not mention that when J. Miller beat a Diddy and won a tournament, people jumped on the bandwagon of Luigi's amazing and greater than he should be. Was Luigi even considered a Diddy counter? Or when Pac-Man, Olimar, and recently, Meta Knight showed up and did well and people believed they were way better than they are. Granted, those players are really skilled with them which means bandwagoners will learn the hard way you can't pick a them thinking it's an automatic win. Even Diddy's not that easy to use when you consider ZeRo's Diddy which is on this level no one else is at or Zex's Sheik, ALTM's Palutena, and more.

Well, at least that's better than over-bashing a character like Falco and... Falco. Mii Sword Fighter won a tournament, Nairo showed Zelda at a high level, Marth has been proven to be good, especially with customs, Dr. Mario's been getting a larger following, and Meta Knight rose from, "Eh, he's nerfed and bad", to "OMG! ITO TOOK A MATCH AGAINST ZERO('s Captain Falcon)!" Even before that, Meta Knight showed he's good, but you need to be on point with him or else. Then there's stigma from past games preventing characters like Ike, Ganondorf, Zelda, Link, and more from being considered usable in any way. It's a different game for Pete's sake...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

To comment on Palutena vs Rosalina since it kinda came up, it's a weird MU. Rosalina wins the neutral pretty solidly since even Rosalina herself is faster with similar space control to Palutena before you even factor in Luma, but Palutena has truly fantastic anti-Luma options. Super Speed can easily be safe, Luma-killing pressure, and Explosive Flame is a rare projectile that Gravitational Pull does nothing to protect against (and it's also extremely anti-Luma). Both sides are so light and floaty that they're mutually hard for the other to combo, and the way Rosalina plays a more ranged game makes it relatively easy for her to avoid getting grabbed by Palutena in the first place which reduces the power of Palutena's celestial hoo hah. It's really hard for me to be sure about who wins or loses this MU at this time since both mostly just work against the other's strengths, but I'm pretty sure it's competitive in any case.

Of course, Super Speed is the foundation of why this MU is possible for Palutena, and both Explosive Flame and Lightweight are huge improvements over her near-useless defaults. I'm pretty sure Palutena without customs is 100% free for Rosalina.

EDIT: As per notable midwest players, you have to understand that travel is hard for us since all these coastal tournaments are literally a thousand miles away. This is more true for those of us in Midwest-West, the area west of the Mississippi. Shaky and MJG I think are both definitely good enough to warrant the title "notable" with the accomplishments to warrant it as well, and while we won't be able to prove our mettle for a while yet, I have a lot of faith in several of the other smashers from the KC area including myself honestly. Watch out for us at EVO!

 

[Conda]

We REALLY have to acknowledge that what's being streamed is not the 'end all be all' of relevant Competitive Smash happenings. Please have the perspective to realise that there are many tournament scenes with great players that just aren't tied in to the twitch and streaming world, nor the social marketing world, as much as some other regions.

 

[Djent]

Rosalina wins the neutral pretty solidly since even Rosalina herself is faster with similar space control to Palutena before you even factor in Luma, but Palutena has truly fantastic anti-Luma options. Super Speed can easily be safe, Luma-killing pressure, and Explosive Flame is a rare projectile that Gravitational Pull does nothing to protect against (and it's also extremely anti-Luma). Both sides are so light and floaty that they're mutually hard for the other to combo, and the way Rosalina plays a more ranged game makes it relatively easy for her to avoid getting grabbed by Palutena in the first place which reduces the power of Palutena's celestial hoo hah.

See, this sounds like a advantage to me. Murdering Luma is nice, but if her normal specs are better even without a star-bit of assistance, then it's really just a case of Palu not getting trashed than it is of her pulling ahead.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah, I know, I checked... Everything's on Facebook it seems. We at least @Red Ryu is on stream.

Speaking of which, are there any notable Midwest SSB4 players? I think Katakiri's in the Illinois scene and that's it. He along with Unknown are the only other Meta Knight players which kind of skews the whole "is Meta Knight good or not" when you only have 3 players and 1 player, lloD, who secondaries him and doesn't do that great because he's a Peach player. Assuming that Japan has a ton of Yoshis, there's probably that to lead to why Japan is overrating Yoshi. Let's not mention that when J. Miller beat a Diddy and won a tournament, people jumped on the bandwagon of Luigi's amazing and greater than he should be. Was Luigi even considered a Diddy counter? Or when Pac-Man, Olimar, and recently, Meta Knight showed up and did well and people believed they were way better than they are. Granted, those players are really skilled with them which means bandwagoners will learn the hard way you can't pick a them thinking it's an automatic win. Even Diddy's not that easy to use when you consider ZeRo's Diddy which is on this level no one else is at or Zex's Sheik, ALTM's Palutena, and more.

Well, at least that's better than over-bashing a character like Falco and... Falco. Mii Sword Fighter won a tournament, Nairo showed Zelda at a high level, Marth has been proven to be good, especially with customs, Dr. Mario's been getting a larger following, and Meta Knight rose from, "Eh, he's nerfed and bad", to "OMG! ITO TOOK A MATCH AGAINST ZERO('s Captain Falcon)!" Even before that, Meta Knight showed he's good, but you need to be on point with him or else. Then there's stigma from past games preventing characters like Ike, Ganondorf, Zelda, Link, and more from being considered usable in any way. It's a different game for Pete's sake...

The more things change the more they stay the same. Zelda being bad is because they didn't do anything to actually make her better. Zelda lost a lot of kill power she's still has poor mobility and a lot of slow moves. She probably has the worst set of specails in the game. They took away her dtilt lock her jab is still trash as is her grab. Her dthrow is worse as is her uair utilt usmash and dsmash. If you're not going to address a character weaknesses of course they're going to continue to suck.

Her nair also seems to be worse.

 

[Ffamran]

The more things change the more they stay the same. Zelda being bad is because they didn't do anything to actually make her better. Zelda lost a lot of kill power she's still has poor mobility and a lot of slow moves. She probably has the worst set of specails in the game. They took away her dtilt lock her jab is still trash as is her grab. Her dthrow is worse as is her uair utilt usmash and dsmash. If you're not going to address a character weaknesses of course they're going to continue to suck.

I was talking more about masses scrambling to follow things, misconceptions, and harsh impressions. I mean, Falco still gets treated as absolute trash despite showing he's capable, but not as capable as everyone else. Ike still low tier? He's mid tier at least and plays nothing like in Brawl which you cannot base him or anyone on since each game functions differently. Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Robin, etc. might end up low tier in this game for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean they're horrible or get 20:80'd by more than half the cast. SSB4's balanced enough where low tiers in this game might as well be considered mid tiers. Zelda just gets lumped into, "She was **** in Melee and Brawl, so she's **** in this game too." That's not how you're supposed to approach her or anyone. Zelda might be bad, but she's not as bad as in Melee or Brawl. At least she can stand a chance against everyone.

Still, she's getting different opinions like everyone else, especially since Nairo showed she can work. Trela showed Mii Sword Fighter is viable, and Marth's been shown to be still viable even though he's been nerfed. Rosalina wasn't shown to be unbeatable and none of the top tiers of this current patch were shown to be unbeatable. The players, however, have shown they're unbeatable - that's just human nature. I mean, people should give the characters a chance before writing them off completely. They all have their places even if it's not great.

It's why people are confused about Japan believing Yoshi to be way better than he is and people being irritated when people complain about customs and Villager being an unbeatable, broken camper. Unless someone can kill you at 0% from across the stage with a Jab, then nothing's broken and there's a way to beat it even if it's difficult as hell to do so.

 

[Blobface]

Then there's stigma from past games preventing characters like Ike, Ganondorf, Zelda, Link, and more from being considered usable in any way. It's a different game for Pete's sake...

Admittedly, part of Ganon's stigma has to do with how his matches usually go. He either stomps all over his opponent or he gets pestered to death, very little in-between. That's just an unfortunate aspect of his design really. When a character gets the ridiculous amount of reward Ganon does on hit, the only way to avoid somewhat binary matches is to make the character awful or to make him too good.

While Ganondorf has taken a fair share of tourneys (he's right in the middle when it comes to the results rankings), I haven't ever seen a Ganondorf win a tourney on stream. And mark my words, he'll get bandwagon'd so hard once that happens. When Ganon wins, he wins hard.

 

[warionumbah2]

I hope people don't watch that video and think they can go select MK on the character screen and go for uair strings like its nothing(although its easy to do), i watched the stream again and MK is nowhere near that aggressive against other characters. What Shaya said on the last page is pretty accurate, MK will play like a awful/cancerous/lame/stupid/whyyyyy/coward if you aren't aggressive like Falcon.

MK along with other characters do get good results its just as Conda said, not every tournament is gonna be put on stream or Youtube. Like real talk it took MK to go on a big time stream, against the best Sm4sh player, in GF for there to actually be 'results' which is pretty silly. Like apparently on the same day a MK won a tournament in Mexico, but that wasn't on stream.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I was talking more about masses scrambling to follow things, misconceptions, and harsh impressions. I mean, Falco still gets treated as absolute trash despite showing he's capable, but not as capable as everyone else. Ike still low tier? He's mid tier at least and plays nothing like in Brawl which you cannot base him or anyone on since each game functions differently. Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Robin, etc. might end up low tier in this game for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean they're horrible or get 20:80'd by more than half the cast. SSB4's balanced enough where low tiers in this game might as well be considered mid tiers. Zelda just gets lumped into, "She was **** in Melee and Brawl, so she's **** in this game too." That's not how you're supposed to approach her or anyone. Zelda might be bad, but she's not as bad as in Melee or Brawl. At least she can stand a chance against everyone.

Still, she's getting different opinions like everyone else, especially since Nairo showed she can work. Trela showed Mii Sword Fighter is viable, and Marth's been shown to be still viable even though he's been nerfed. Rosalina wasn't shown to be unbeatable and none of the top tiers of this current patch were shown to be unbeatable. The players, however, have shown they're unbeatable - that's just human nature. I mean, people should give the characters a chance before writing them off completely. They all have their places even if it's not great.

It's why people are confused about Japan believing Yoshi to be way better than he is and people being irritated when people complain about customs and Villager being an unbeatable, broken camper. Unless someone can kill you at 0% from across the stage with a Jab, then nothing's broken and there's a way to beat it even if it's difficult as hell to do so.

What you define as broken is absurd. Ike is probably going to be in the better half. Is he improved from brawl? Yes...does that make him good in this game? I don't think so. It's been a while since I've seen nairo's Zelda or Robin granted I don't catch every stream.

Toon Link seems a bit worse to me link is pretty bad as well. Falco is interesting I'm not sure if he's above mid or not. But his customs seem strong and look as though he could be a threat. What you should recognize and a lot of other people is the importance of frame data in these discussions. I personally can't write off a character like falco with his frame data. Does that translate to a top character? I don't believe so but it shows his potential.

Yes people can be swept along by others opinion. However, isn't this thread the perfect place to dispel the non sense and discuss character viability? I learn a lot from this thread and I don't try to go with the popular opinion but my opinion.

 

[Emblem Lord]

how the **** has marth been shown to be viable?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Admittedly, part of Ganon's stigma has to do with how his matches usually go. He either stomps all over his opponent or he gets pestered to death, very little in-between. That's just an unfortunate aspect of his design really. When a character gets the ridiculous amount of reward Ganon does on hit, the only way to avoid somewhat binary matches is to make the character awful or to make him too good.

While Ganondorf has taken a fair share of tourneys (he's right in the middle when it comes to the results rankings), I haven't ever seen a Ganondorf win a tourney on stream. And mark my words, he'll get bandwagon'd so hard once that happens. When Ganon wins, he wins hard.

So basically, Ganondorf is the "win more" of Smash?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

how the **** has marth been shown to be viable?

Cuz u......

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cuz u......

holy crap i hope thats not the case. Losing badly to top tiers is not a strong display of a chars viability within the metagame. Quite the opposite in fact

 

[Blobface]

So basically, Ganondorf is the "win more" of Smash?

Yes, less safe attacks that give more reward are inherently more of a gamble than safe attacks that don't give much reward.

how the **** has marth been shown to be viable?

Just to clarify, are you saying Marth isn't viable or he hasn't been shown to be viable?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

holy crap i hope thats not the case. Losing badly to top tiers is not a strong display of a chars viability within the metagame. Quite the opposite in fact

You placed well in a strong region. Yeah you lost to ZSS but that was nairo. Idk who else you lost to but it still showed something.

 

[Radical Larry]

I find Ganondorf's up smash to be a safe attack that gives high reward upon hit. I mean, there's so many things it can do, from combos to being safe on shield, and even mind games. The attack is capable of allowing very quick reactions to go for another attack thanks to its IASA frames. So if you want to trick an opponent that will rush you down, use U-Smash > U-Smash/F-Smash/D-Smash/D-Tilt/F-Tilt/Jab. Any combination of those moves will indeed work to a Ganondorf's advantage, if the timing is right of course.

 

[Nobie]

Wait, ZELDA has bad specials? I don't think her specials are what's holding her back, between Nayru's Love and its ability to mess up grab attempts and non-disjointed approaches, and Farore's Wind basically making it impossible to edgeguard her even more than compared to previous games, because one over-extension means getting hit and potentially even KO'd.

Caveat edit: This is partly coming from a Mega Man player who is kind of annoyed that Nayru's Love just flat out beats grab and slide.

 

[Emblem Lord]

im like...completely mind****ed right now. I...ok...hsdhdjfhjufdjhfju....marth right now is not viable. He is fun as hell with customs but he has a legit unwinnable match vs zss and tough matches vs several top tiers.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Wait, ZELDA has bad specials? I don't think her specials are what's holding her back, between Nayru's Love and its ability to mess up grab attempts and non-disjointed approaches, and Farore's Wind basically making it impossible to edgeguard her even more than compared to previous games, because one over-extension means getting hit and potentially even KO'd.

Caveat edit: This is partly coming from a Mega Man player who is kind of annoyed that Nayru's Love just flat out beats grab and slide.

Din sucks as does down b. Even nl only has limited uses. Freaking her best move is up B.........

im like...completely mind****ed right now. I...ok...hsdhdjfhjufdjhfju....marth right now is not viable. He is fun as hell with customs but he has a legit unwinnable match vs zss and tough matches vs several top tiers.

A lot of characters in this game aren't viable. I am very skeptical of this upcoming balance patch. Really wish nitendo was a bit more like capcom when doing upfates. Hopefully they release patch notes this time around.

 

[Lavani]

When I think of good moves belonging to Zelda, I think of:

• Farore's Wind - Safe recovery that doubles as a ridiculously potent 7f kill move usable OoS
• Nayru's Love - Reflector with invincibility and lingering hitboxes that functions as a solid get-off-me move.
• Dair - Very powerful sweetspotted spike, even the weak hit lingers for an extra 10 frames and also spikes.
• Dtilt - Quick poke that sets up other moves and can even combo into Farore's Wind at specific percents.
• Dsmash - Frame 5, good launch angle, lowish end lag. Kind of has kill power.

2 out of 4 of her specials are among her best moves; Din's is terrible and Phantom is questionable, but I wouldn't say her specials are her weak point.