Character Competitive Impressions

[Hippieslayer]

Uh Kong Cyclone is a very flexible move which can be used in tons of ways combining movement and attack simultaenously, which is principally what wavedashing does too. It's not the same ofc but there are principal similarities. Pivoted tilts and smashes resemble wavedashing too, in the same principal manner.

You don't get killed by customs at 50% unless you screw up. Reason it happens is because people dont know customs and hence screw up. Therefore customs are broken. M2 and Lucas will also be broken when they arrive, but since people dont come up with bull**** reasons to omit them from the game they wont be broken in the same sense for very long.

This get killed at 50% bull**** needs to stop. It's been gone over already, there are a plethora of moves which can kill at 50% if the opponent doesnt know what to do against them.

 

[Antonykun]

I think there may be a disconnect between the voters and the results, specifically how the votes are processed.

At least one person on the reddit topic said "Mii Swordfighter with customs sits about mid-low". The results? Last place again.

I can only conclude that people aren't giving characters like Mii Sword a low grade out of understanding, but because a big train of people confirm the character that won his only tournament is really bad because others say he's really bad. Voters are unenthusiastic about the character by popularity, but not by viability. So why is he being voted so lowly? Are people thinking he's "mid-low" giving him a 4/10 because it's "mid-low" on the number scale, but the overall average puts everyone else between 5 and 10 points?

Can we get a chart of some of these by number of voters per numerical vote? I'm deeply perplexed why the only people who ever talk about Mii Sword continuously say he's not the worst character in the game, with no objections otherwise, and yet he's constantly slept on and thrown down a hole in spite of someone winning a tournament with him. Heck I've seen this topic do it too; someone mentions Mii Sword is super good at something, everyone ignores them.

That aside, can someone put together a chart based on number of tournament wins per character? That'd be nice too.

It's because Swordfighter is so difficult to play at a starting level regardless of actual skill level. You HAVE to know what each button does at ALL times. On top of that there is some seriously obtuse gameplans for him as everything else is not as good.

I'm pretty sure people don't ignore as much as they don't respond. It's better to not talk than to spread misinformation or negativity. Like the easiest way to shut me up is to start talking about my mind wants to comprehend him but I can't :/

 

[Hippieslayer]

Wario's b-throw isn't really a killthrow, I don't know percentages but you need to get people really friggin high in order to kill with that ****. He's got some other options though. One is dsmash, it's highly punishable and not a particularly great move by any measure, but it comes out fast enough (by far his fastest smash) to still be usable as a punish in some situations.

F-tilt on the other hand is genuinely good, its strong, and it doesnt have that much endlag, the range is pretty good as well. It's great for catching people landing or trying to get back from the ledge.

But ya still really want to be landing dem farts

 

[Shaya]

Hippieslayer, it's like I'm reading "get better" because I got combo'd into a tipper fsmash and died sub 50% in melee. Yeah I probably could've done something to avoid the hit before hand, but what people are hyping is the contrast between customs on/off and the applicable punishment opportunities that exist with the new specials.

If you're hit near the ledge by one of these moves, you're going to die. Can you always avoid these moves? Probably. As I can avoid Marth's grab or fair in melee. Or for something more analogical me having a 50/50 to either attack/airdodge before I touch the ground or just fast fall/land into it. These type of opportunities, especially if the moves have long horizontal range, give a lot of characters with sub20 frame options a punish, when the game adds sub 20 frame options that kill at very low percent with said horizontal range it isn't "jank" or "screwing up", it's just apart of the game. lol

This would all be better to digest if Falcon and Warlock Punch were sub 20 frame moves. Marth in Smash4 should be able to forward smash in the air and not be like -30 on shield, then everything else would be fair [in my eyes]~

 

[Hippieslayer]

Nope that's not comparable in the least I'm afraid.

 

[Locke 06]

Nope that's not comparable in the least I'm afraid.

Heavy Skull bash deals 15%, is faster than Pikachu's f15 fsmash (f13 based on poor camera analysis), and outright kills Mario at the edge of FD at 70% with no rage. (spoiler: kills Mario at 50% with full rage).

That option does not exist without alternative specials. Pikachu's strongest move in the air is f14 DAir which isn't going to kill Mario at the same location until 140% with no rage.

Can you dodge/avoid it? Sure, you can dodge/avoid any move. But acting like this isn't insanely strong compared to the rest of his kit or anyone's kit, is just ignorance.

 

[Shaya]

If you don't see how there is at least some comparison then you're delusional I'm afraid.

Is your delusion defined by you being in the 'lalala these moves don't exist as described' boat (where move data will tell you otherwise)? Or perhaps the 'lalala the hit confirms or set up into these moves don't exist' boat (where tournament results will tell you otherwise)?
"Screwing up" happens to be a natural part of the game. Simple things like "don't be near the ledge", "don't get grabbed", "don't get hit" or "don't jump or land" are screw ups any level of tournament players seem to not be able avoid; crazy, I know, but step into the lens of reality and you shall see both the light and the shadow.

The number '50%' may be the broken stem in your thought process, in which case, you should look at repairing that. Yes those three moves are going to be killing earlier then the moves we're referencing, but they're noticeably more restrictive in their usage too. Yes they will kill at 50% without rage, while the ones we're talking about can kill at noticeably low percent with rage.

 

[thehard]

On the subject of early kustom kills: I wonder if One-Inch Punch will be patched in 1.0.6. Dapuffster just got some insanely early Halberd kills with it. (Lost the tournament to Angel Cortez though)

 

[Brinzy]

You don't get killed by customs at 50% unless you screw up. Reason it happens is because people dont know customs and hence screw up. Therefore customs are broken.

You're about three days late.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Those lists are just confirming what we all already know

Public opinion is dumb and should be ignored. I mean, just LOOK at Ike's position in both lists, particularly the customs one... and how can custom DK be so low, how on earth is Mii Gunner at the bottom.... and... and... and... *headexplodes*

I just wanna make sure it's VERY clear that I in NO WAY AT ALL think these lists that come each month are really worth much of anything minus seeing the general public perception at the given moment. It'll be maybe fun to see these lists a year from now to see how much has changed. I've considered honestly to just plain stop doing them but people having fun with them and the fact that at least SOME discussion happens there is what keeps me from stopping.

Though this should make something else pretty clear, those kinds of masses who vote on this tier list and obviously show their lack of knowledge are the same kinds of folks trying to rally for ruleset changes and everything else with probably a similar lack of knowledge. Scary...

 

[Shaya]

I just wanna make sure it's VERY clear that I in NO WAY AT ALL think these lists that come each month are really worth much of anything minus seeing the general public perception at the given moment. It'll be maybe fun to see these lists a year from now to see how much has changed. I've considered honestly to just plain stop doing them but people having fun with them and the fact that at least SOME discussion happens there is what keeps me from stopping.

Though this should make something else pretty clear, those kinds of masses who vote on this tier list and obviously show their lack of knowledge are the same kinds of folks trying to rally for ruleset changes and everything else with probably a similar lack of knowledge. Scary...

I don't see them as harmful at all, at this stage bringing up the "zomg horribly inaccurate" rant is significantly less interesting than the perception of characters based on the time we're in, stop being so boring people. You should probably provide the change list more so than the actual list itself here IMO.
I like how Pikachu bounced back to glory in both lists.
You're right, people who don't know anything/don't go to tournaments do have a pretty loud voice. Redditors are also excessively impressionable and it's the place a majority of top players blog about their antics. It's our job still to find the silver lining~

 

[Emblem Lord]

Speaking of SwordFighter, just got back from a tourney with him. Played him in tourney and hella friendlies. Did terrible. You REALLY need to know the character. He has NO jank what so ever. No BS. You have to know which option to use, when and where. I honestly just wanted to mess with him, because honestly taking the game seriously right now is lol to me. I learned the hard way from playing SFIV for years. When a patch is dropping it's best just to chill out cuz the metagame more then likely will get turned on its head. Anyways, back to Mii Swordfighter.

Shuriken of Light is golden. Just a great move for mid range control. It is a must imo. Blurring blade isn't functional and Gale strike is match-up specific.

Airborne assault is not good. Sword Launcher is decent. Chakram is good but redundant with Shuriken. But I ran airborne for recovery purposes and damn the move is ass. So predictable and easy to punish. Might have to run sword launcher instead. People were running out and spiking me out of AA, no respect at all and no fear of challenging it.

Hero Spin and Skyward Slash Dash are the up bs of choice. HS is solid and gives a nice OoS option to punish. SSD is better for recovery but is easier to challenge and gimp. I was spiked out of it a few times in friendlies.

His down bs are match-up dependent. Blade Counter is good for breaking pressure and forcing opponents to be respectful. Reversal Slash is good for gimping and vs projectile users. Power Thrust augments your neutral game, and is nice for getting out of aerial trap situations. It's actually a great neutral tool. It is sort of like a fusion between Marths Dashing Assault and Ike's Close Combat. It is not transcendent and it will clash with projectiles. Gives Sword Fighter a safer way to close vs projectile users. It can kill and be used in traps for option coverage very effectively.

Nothing is free with this character. He has some great buttons in Jab, d-tilt, u-tilt and Nair to cover himself. Uair is great in grab combos and is a true auto cancel. Swordfighter requires true mastery and understanding.

Honestly he just isnt worth it in a game where you can play say ZSS, who has more options, better options, more depth, more traps, better neutral, better match-ups, etc. I chose chose her as an example because they have similar zones of control, but you get the idea.

He is def one of the worst, but not THE worst. But as a character too many others do what he does, but better.

Can he win? Yup.

Will he win consistently and often? Doubt it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Who do you think is worse than Swordfighter Mii, since you have experience with him in tournament and most of us don't.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't see them as harmful at all, at this stage bringing up the "zomg horribly inaccurate" rant is significantly less interesting than the perception of characters based on the time we're in, stop being so boring people. You should probably provide the change list more so than the actual list itself here IMO.
I like how Pikachu bounced back to glory in both lists.
You're right, people who don't know anything/don't go to tournaments do have a pretty loud voice. Redditors are also excessively impressionable and it's the place a majority of top players blog about their antics. It's our job still to find the silver lining~

I usually DO post the movement but splitting up the lists this month I thought that might be weird.

HOWEVER next month with a brand new balance patch out? I'm gonna post all that movement with reckless abandon as it's one of the best times EVER to do so. It's gonna be a wile ride.

 

[Antonykun]

Speaking of SwordFighter, just got back from a tourney with him. Played him in tourney and hella friendlies. Did terrible. You REALLY need to know the character. He has NO jank what so ever. No BS. You have to know which option to use, when and where. I honestly just wanted to mess with him, because honestly taking the game seriously right now is lol to me. I learned the hard way from playing SFIV for years. When a patch is dropping it's best just to chill out cuz the metagame more then likely will get turned on its head. Anyways, back to Mii Swordfighter.

Shuriken of Light is golden. Just a great move for mid range control. It is a must imo. Blurring blade isn't functional and Gale strike is match-up specific.

Airborne assault is not good. Sword Launcher is decent. Chakram is good but redundant with Shuriken. But I ran airborne for recovery purposes and damn the move is ***. So predictable and easy to punish. Might have to run sword launcher instead. People were running out and spiking me out of AA, no respect at all and no fear of challenging it.

Hero Spin and Skyward Slash Dash are the up bs of choice. HS is solid and gives a nice OoS option to punish. SSD is better for recovery but is easier to challenge and gimp. I was spiked out of it a few times in friendlies.

His down bs are match-up dependent. Blade Counter is good for breaking pressure and forcing opponents to be respectful. Reversal Slash is good for gimping and vs projectile users. Power Thrust augments your neutral game, and is nice for getting out of aerial trap situations. It's actually a great neutral tool. It is sort of like a fusion between Marths Dashing Assault and Ike's Close Combat. It is not transcendent and it will clash with projectiles. Gives Sword Fighter a safer way to close vs projectile users. It can kill and be used in traps for option coverage very effectively.

Nothing is free with this character. He has some great buttons in Jab, d-tilt, u-tilt and Nair to cover himself. Uair is great in grab combos and is a true auto cancel. Swordfighter requires true mastery and understanding.

Honestly he just isnt worth it in a game where you can play say ZSS, who has more options, better options, more depth, more traps, better neutral, better match-ups, etc. I chose chose her as an example because they have similar zones of control, but you get the idea.

He is def one of the worst, but not THE worst. But as a character too many others do what he does, but better.

Can he win? Yup.

Will he win consistently and often? Doubt it.

This is one of the smartest comments I've seen about Swordfighter and I thank you for it. I genuinely believe Swordfighter is one of if not THE most honest character in the game but...That's a bad thing. To be good you have to have some sort of abuse, something that makes the opponent to respect you. Diddy U-air/F-air/Grab, Sheik's everything, Luma, ect. Swordfighter isn't a flawed design as one would think, It's just...Some of his buttons would like to be a bit better like a nair that did a bit more damage and F-air didn't require a frame cancel to be safe on shield. As it stands now Swordfighter requires a close intimacy with his buttons to even be competent, let alone good. For reference I picked up Swordfighter on November the 27th, and I still feel like I'm only playing 10% of the character

 

[Emblem Lord]

Who do you think is worse than Swordfighter Mii, since you have experience with him in tournament and most of us don't.

Lucina which is a shame, but really its the hitlag modifier that kills her. Like, honestly alot of chars are unsafe in this game and she is the epitome of unsafe. She just isn't allowed to ever touch a shield, ever. In friendlies I was getting punished as Sheik who actually IS abusive and stupid( granted it was vs Diddy Kong, but still) So if Sheik has to be perfect to not get mauled at high level, what does Lucina do who gets handled even when she technically isn't doing anything wrong?

Dedede, G&W and Samus are all lacking. We know their issues and why they are bad.

G&W might be a little better then them as his large lingering hitboxes are abusable. However Dedede is too exploitable and he has horrible match-ups vs most of the top tier and does Samus. Samus' keepaway game has holes(without customs) and she simply can't kill and lacks kill-confirms.

 

[Project Quarantine]

So if swordfighter is not the worst in the game, who is? Ike? Charizard? Falco? Lucina? Robin? Little Mac? This can establish a baseline for a tier list.

EDIT: Somebody already asked this, feel free to disregard this post

 

[Quickhero]

@ Project Quarantine The mere idea that you could think Ike, Falco, or Robin could be the worst character in the game makes me question how hard you derped when asking this question. Let alone the fact that you didn't even edit your post mentioning that he already answered it.

 

[Unknownkid]

Lucina which is a shame, but really its the hitlag modifier that kills her. Like, honestly alot of chars are unsafe in this game and she is the epitome of unsafe. She just isn't allowed to ever touch a shield, ever. In friendlies I was getting punished as Sheik who actually IS abusive and stupid( granted it was vs Diddy Kong, but still) So if Sheik has to be perfect to not get mauled at high level, what does Lucina do who gets handled even when she technically isn't doing anything wrong?

Dedede, G&W and Samus are all lacking. We know their issues and why they are bad.

G&W might be a little better then them as his large lingering hitboxes are abusable. However Dedede is too exploitable and he has horrible match-ups vs most of the top tier and does Samus. Samus' keepaway game has holes(without customs) and she simply can't kill and lacks kill-confirms.

Were you able to save any video of your matches with Swordfighter? I like to update our video thread.

 

[Project Quarantine]

@ Project Quarantine The mere idea that you could think Ike, Falco, or Robin could be the worst character in the game makes me question how hard you derped when asking this question. Let alone the fact that you didn't even edit your post mentioning that he already answered it.

I really derped and was sad when I couldn't delete my post after I realized the mistake I had made.

Regarding the characters I listed, a lot of people I know and play against think those are some of the worst characters. I personally think they are low tier, but not worst

 

[Nabbitnator]

I wonder why lucina is that unsafe on shield in the first place. Its like you work so hard on spacing for no reward or just to get punished for doing the right thing by some characters.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I wonder why lucina is that unsafe on shield in the first place. Its like you work so hard on spacing for no reward or just to get punished for doing the right thing by some characters.

Possibly an oversight. More than likely she was created by copying Marth's files and changing the damage on her hitboxes, plus a new model and taunts. It's possible they simply omitted his hitlag modifiers without fully considering the ramifications. IIRC the clones were balanced such that they won 50% of the time vs. the original instead of really checking them vs. the rest of the cast.

 

[TriTails]

= Low tier/one of the worst.

Everytime people say that, my reaction is my avatar.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Possibly an oversight. More than likely she was created by copying Marth's files and changing the damage on her hitboxes, plus a new model and taunts. It's possible they simply omitted his hitlag modifiers without fully considering the ramifications. IIRC the clones were balanced such that they won 50% of the time vs. the original instead of really checking them vs. the rest of the cast.

Hopefully they will go over those files for lucina.

 

[Ffamran]

Time for something different: wall jumping is used defensively most of the time, but what about offensively? It would be character dependent, but Captain Falcon, Falco, Mega Man, Villager, and maybe even Toon Link, Sonic, and Mario could use it to setup different attacks. Cyro made a montage which will have the best bits picked and compiled, but I noticed he used wall jump to get back onto the stage with Bair or he used it to ledge spike with Bair, spike with Dair and Falco Phantasm, and even used Fair facing towards the wall to cause a horizontal ledge launch, wall jumped to reposition himself, and used Fair again to gimp. I could see Captain Falcon wall jumping to Nipple spike at a different position than jumping off or dropping off, get back on stage with Bair for some reason, or even Raptor Boost spike someone. Just a little thought while watching Cyro's montage. Mario could wall jump and I get back on stage with Bair or setup a Fair spike. It's all theory and probably really read based, but it's something I guess.

 

[TheZyzyva]

I feel like we should be putting Lucina as the "worst" character. Not because she is the least capable (DDD imo) but because there is no reason to be her rather than Marth. Every other 'bad' character is at least unique and can justify liking their play style, but with Lucina, I just think why?

To people who know more (EmblemLord), is there anything Lucina does better than Marth, aside from losing? Is it just usmash?

 

[TriTails]

What Lucina has over Marth:
- Perfect pivoting
- U-smashing a grounded opponent
- Actually speaks English
- TAIM TO CHENGZ FET!

What Marth has over Lucina: The rest.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Their grounded hitbox is the same on U-smash just that the second hit will kill sooner for her since Marth can't vacuum opponents into the tip of his blade.

 

[Lavani]

Time for something different: wall jumping is used defensively most of the time, but what about offensively? It would be character dependent, but Captain Falcon, Falco, Mega Man, Villager, and maybe even Toon Link, Sonic, and Mario could use it to setup different attacks. Cyro made a montage which will have the best bits picked and compiled, but I noticed he used wall jump to get back onto the stage with Bair or he used it to ledge spike with Bair, spike with Dair and Falco Phantasm, and even used Fair facing towards the wall to cause a horizontal ledge launch, wall jumped to reposition himself, and used Fair again to gimp. I could see Captain Falcon wall jumping to Nipple spike at a different position than jumping off or dropping off, get back on stage with Bair for some reason, or even Raptor Boost spike someone. Just a little thought while watching Cyro's montage. Mario could wall jump and I get back on stage with Bair or setup a Fair spike. It's all theory and probably really read based, but it's something I guess.

There's the old Scar Jumping tech from the Melee days for turning around from a ledge grab (which was discussed for sm4sh awhile back), which I personally found quite useful for returning to the stage with Greninja's long-reaching frame 5 bair.

Rereading that thread, I'm reminded of @ Kofu 's post about it apparently being possible to walljump when ledge trumped. That isn't something I've seen utilized ever.

 

[Kofu]

There's the old Scar Jumping tech from the Melee days for turning around from a ledge grab (which was discussed for sm4sh awhile back), which I personally found quite useful for returning to the stage with Greninja's long-reaching frame 5 bair.

Rereading that thread, I'm reminded of @ Kofu 's post about it apparently being possible to walljump when ledge trumped. That isn't something I've seen utilized ever.

I honestly didn't remember posting about that, haha. I was like "wat I don't even utilize ledge trumping well in my game lol" but then I saw it was something I found from something else and it made sense.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Lucina is quite the ode to sub-optimality, but I'm not convinced she's the worst. I mean, on my current personal tier list, I have Marth at 35/51. Lucina is worse than that to a real extent, but there's no way she's 16 places worse than Marth since they do have the same frame data, the same hitbox shapes, and similar average reward on hit. In general I think people often underrank clones versus the originals; yeah all of the clones are the worse versions, but I don't think someone who errs and picks the "wrong" one is actually dooming themselves to lose as hard as a lot of lists make it look.

Speaking of tier lists, I kinda feel like we should get together what we're thinking about the game now; the balance very well may change a lot on the 15th, and it may be fun years down the line to remember what we thought of the game before its first major patch (1.0.4 doesn't really count since the Wii U version was the real version of the game and 1.0.4 was the same day). I suppose this is presuming 1.0.6 will actually change things, but it seems likely. At the very least, we're definitely getting a new character which of course could change everything. I've put some thought in, and here's about what I'm looking at which at some points does represent a lot of big changes since the last time I posted a list since my understanding has evolved a lot:

A+ (1): Diddy
A (2-8): Sonic, Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, Ness, Mii Brawler, Fox
A- (9-16): Luigi, Villager, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Mario, Peach, Lucario, Captain Falcon
B+ (17-24): Link, Donkey Kong, Pit, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Shulk, Dr. Mario, Palutena
B (25-31): Olimar, Toon Link, Wario, Charizard, Meta Knight, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer
B- (32-39): Mii Gunner, Ike, Bowser Jr., Marth, Bowser, Duck Hunt, Robin, Kirby
C+ (40-44): Ganondorf, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Greninja, Samus
C (45-50): King Dedede, Pac-Man, Falco, Little Mac, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Swordfighter
C- (51): Zelda

Time to qualify this list massive:

This assumes customs on; that's the game I play. Stage rules are assumed to be similar to EVO's (FLSS). This is ranking characters in terms of their viability as a dedicated main; obviously Little Mac especially has more value than this as a secondary, but he's way too easy to counterpick/stage strike against to have more viability as a main than that (I feel like Duck Hunt as well would rank much higher on a tier list of "value as a secondary"). This is also about how good I think the character actually is, not about how popular a character is. I already know I'm controversial on a few characters (I really don't believe in Greninja or Pac-Man at all), but the way I look at it, there are a lot of good characters in this game and moving someone up means implicitly moving everyone else down so if I rank a character low it's me paying a compliment to everyone I rank above them. Like it kinda killed me to put Falco in bottom five except I didn't want to move any of the 46 characters above him down... Also, to be clear, I think anyone with either an A or a B is a truly viable character, and I think all of the Cs are good enough to be dangerous even if they are flawed in various ways. This means match-ups against most of the cast matter; Sheik is a bit better than Rosalina against other characters in top 5, but I think Rosalina outperforms Sheik sufficiently against characters outside of the top 5 to just edge Sheik out on the list (but it's close!). Obviously as one guy my knowledge is imperfect, but I feel like this is the best, most honest representation of how I see this game's balance that I can provide.

I can explain what I'm thinking about any of these placements which could be a fun discussion, but just as much, I'm curious what sorts of lists other people are keeping. Like I said, we may be happy to have this stuff documented in a few years when no one remembers what this version of the game plays like. It would also be interesting to see where we all actually agree and where we all disagree.

 

[Ffamran]

Yay...

We're having too much fun.

I can fix this:

This is the Battering Banana thing, right?

 

[Lavani]

This is the Battering Banana thing, right?

Right.

 

[webbedspace]

I'll be honest: I'm actually a little sad Diddy doesn't have good customs barring the aforementioned; not upgrades, of course, but equally viable, interesting sidegrades that suggested alternative gameplans would've maybe given the swarms of Diddy mains a chance to be a bit more distinct, and made Diddy dittos a bit more varied.

Then again, very few characters really have a big suite of sidegrades at their disposal, do they? Maybe just Megaman, Sonic, Mario, DK, and a few more have 3 or more slots whose choices can be safely left to personal taste. (Really glad about Megaman considering they actually made new art assets for each of them.)

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

All I have to say is that this list says customs off is less balanced. That's all that needs to be said about it's credibility.

I'm sure that at least one person who voted on this thinks wave dashing should be added to smash 4 because it "adds more movement options" while simultaneously saying Kong Cyclone is broken because it "gives too many movement options". I hate to be so aggressive about this, but I'm really sick of the idiotic double standards smash 4 gets put through. People say smash 4 takes too long, then immediately say that customs that allow earlier kills are "broken". People say smash 4 doesn't give characters enough "options" then hate on customs which literally increase options in the most objective sense possible.

It's like some people are utterly incapable of thinking any smash game besides Melee can be good.

Edit: I just looked at the customs on discussion, and now I'm just confused. Judging by the discussion, the tier list would be completely different than the nonsense it is now. What gives?

But... The tier list creator even said there was a larger gap in votes for customs ON...

 

[TheZyzyva]

Lucina is quite the ode to sub-optimality, but I'm not convinced she's the worst. I mean, on my current personal tier list, I have Marth at 35/51. Lucina is worse than that to a real extent, but there's no way she's 16 places worse than Marth since they do have the same frame data, the same hitbox shapes, and similar average reward on hit. In general I think people often underrank clones versus the originals; yeah all of the clones are the worse versions, but I don't think someone who errs and picks the "wrong" one is actually dooming themselves to lose as hard as a lot of lists make it look.

Speaking of tier lists, I kinda feel like we should get together what we're thinking about the game now; the balance very well may change a lot on the 15th, and it may be fun years down the line to remember what we thought of the game before its first major patch (1.0.4 doesn't really count since the Wii U version was the real version of the game and 1.0.4 was the same day). I suppose this is presuming 1.0.6 will actually change things, but it seems likely. At the very least, we're definitely getting a new character which of course could change everything. I've put some thought in, and here's about what I'm looking at which at some points does represent a lot of big changes since the last time I posted a list since my understanding has evolved a lot:

A+ (1): Diddy
A (2-8): Sonic, Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, Ness, Mii Brawler, Fox
A- (9-16): Luigi, Villager, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Mario, Peach, Lucario, Captain Falcon
B+ (17-24): Link, Donkey Kong, Pit, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Shulk, Dr. Mario, Palutena
B (25-31): Olimar, Toon Link, Wario, Charizard, Meta Knight, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer
B- (32-39): Mii Gunner, Ike, Bowser Jr., Marth, Bowser, Duck Hunt, Robin, Kirby
C+ (40-44): Ganondorf, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Greninja, Samus
C (45-50): King Dedede, Pac-Man, Falco, Little Mac, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Swordfighter
C- (51): Zelda

Time to qualify this list massive:

This assumes customs on; that's the game I play. Stage rules are assumed to be similar to EVO's (FLSS). This is ranking characters in terms of their viability as a dedicated main; obviously Little Mac especially has more value than this as a secondary, but he's way too easy to counterpick/stage strike against to have more viability as a main than that (I feel like Duck Hunt as well would rank much higher on a tier list of "value as a secondary"). This is also about how good I think the character actually is, not about how popular a character is. I already know I'm controversial on a few characters (I really don't believe in Greninja or Pac-Man at all), but the way I look at it, there are a lot of good characters in this game and moving someone up means implicitly moving everyone else down so if I rank a character low it's me paying a compliment to everyone I rank above them. Like it kinda killed me to put Falco in bottom five except I didn't want to move any of the 46 characters above him down... Also, to be clear, I think anyone with either an A or a B is a truly viable character, and I think all of the Cs are good enough to be dangerous even if they are flawed in various ways. This means match-ups against most of the cast matter; Sheik is a bit better than Rosalina against other characters in top 5, but I think Rosalina outperforms Sheik sufficiently against characters outside of the top 5 to just edge Sheik out on the list (but it's close!). Obviously as one guy my knowledge is imperfect, but I feel like this is the best, most honest representation of how I see this game's balance that I can provide.

I can explain what I'm thinking about any of these placements which could be a fun discussion, but just as much, I'm curious what sorts of lists other people are keeping. Like I said, we may be happy to have this stuff documented in a few years when no one remembers what this version of the game plays like. It would also be interesting to see where we all actually agree and where we all disagree.

Wow you really don't believe in Pac or Greninja at all. They should both be higher. Also Dorf is really low from where I thought the consensus was at. I do think Ness is a tad too high and that Zelda isn't the very worst, but that's getting nit-picky.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You know where I realized that the community tier list is a complete and utter waste of time (no offense, @ LiteralGrill , but it really is)? When I saw Kirby below Bowser.

Just... No. Do these people play this game at all? Am I missing something? Did Bowser find some new 0-death tech or some **** that would move him from "completely unplayable in almost every single high tier matchup" to "just a little bad"? Kirby is, you know, actually a real character. Bowser is a sad joke that needs to hit about three times as hard as he does to be even remotely viable. Yes, I'm serious. I don't think Bowser would be viable if his jab did 30 damage and his bair did 60!

@ Amazing Ampharos Pikachu that low with customs? He gets one of the most lethal high-tier customs in the game.

 

[Bjurrse]

On the subject of early kustom kills: I wonder if One-Inch Punch will be patched in 1.0.6. Dapuffster just got some insanely early Halberd kills with it. (Lost the tournament to Angel Cortez though)

Which tournament? Slept the entire saturday :o, **** tequila..

 

[Pazx]

You know where I realized that the community tier list is a complete and utter waste of time (no offense, @ LiteralGrill , but it really is)? When I saw Kirby below Bowser.

Just... No. Do these people play this game at all? Am I missing something? Did Bowser find some new 0-death tech or some **** that would move him from "completely unplayable in almost every single high tier matchup" to "just a little bad"? Kirby is, you know, actually a real character. Bowser is a sad joke that needs to hit about three times as hard as he does to be even remotely viable. Yes, I'm serious. I don't think Bowser would be viable if his jab did 30 damage and his bair did 60!

@ Amazing Ampharos Pikachu that low with customs? He gets one of the most lethal high-tier customs in the game.

Ampharos did the exact same thing in regards to the placement of Kirby and Bowser. Is his tier list a waste of time?

(The answer is maybe, probably, but it's okay because we all know early tier lists are bad and community tier lists are worse but only just. His opinion is valid, and that's what matters at this point.)

I was constructing a vague tier list but I once I realised that when placing characters I ended up giving Luigi, Fox, Ness and Pikachu "Somewhere between 2nd and 18th" I gave up.

 

[Luco]

Lucina is quite the ode to sub-optimality, but I'm not convinced she's the worst. I mean, on my current personal tier list, I have Marth at 35/51. Lucina is worse than that to a real extent, but there's no way she's 16 places worse than Marth since they do have the same frame data, the same hitbox shapes, and similar average reward on hit. In general I think people often underrank clones versus the originals; yeah all of the clones are the worse versions, but I don't think someone who errs and picks the "wrong" one is actually dooming themselves to lose as hard as a lot of lists make it look.

Speaking of tier lists, I kinda feel like we should get together what we're thinking about the game now; the balance very well may change a lot on the 15th, and it may be fun years down the line to remember what we thought of the game before its first major patch (1.0.4 doesn't really count since the Wii U version was the real version of the game and 1.0.4 was the same day). I suppose this is presuming 1.0.6 will actually change things, but it seems likely. At the very least, we're definitely getting a new character which of course could change everything. I've put some thought in, and here's about what I'm looking at which at some points does represent a lot of big changes since the last time I posted a list since my understanding has evolved a lot:

A+ (1): Diddy
A (2-8): Sonic, Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, Ness, Mii Brawler, Fox
A- (9-16): Luigi, Villager, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Mario, Peach, Lucario, Captain Falcon
B+ (17-24): Link, Donkey Kong, Pit, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Shulk, Dr. Mario, Palutena
B (25-31): Olimar, Toon Link, Wario, Charizard, Meta Knight, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer
B- (32-39): Mii Gunner, Ike, Bowser Jr., Marth, Bowser, Duck Hunt, Robin, Kirby
C+ (40-44): Ganondorf, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Greninja, Samus
C (45-50): King Dedede, Pac-Man, Falco, Little Mac, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Swordfighter
C- (51): Zelda

Time to qualify this list massive:

This assumes customs on; that's the game I play. Stage rules are assumed to be similar to EVO's (FLSS). This is ranking characters in terms of their viability as a dedicated main; obviously Little Mac especially has more value than this as a secondary, but he's way too easy to counterpick/stage strike against to have more viability as a main than that (I feel like Duck Hunt as well would rank much higher on a tier list of "value as a secondary"). This is also about how good I think the character actually is, not about how popular a character is. I already know I'm controversial on a few characters (I really don't believe in Greninja or Pac-Man at all), but the way I look at it, there are a lot of good characters in this game and moving someone up means implicitly moving everyone else down so if I rank a character low it's me paying a compliment to everyone I rank above them. Like it kinda killed me to put Falco in bottom five except I didn't want to move any of the 46 characters above him down... Also, to be clear, I think anyone with either an A or a B is a truly viable character, and I think all of the Cs are good enough to be dangerous even if they are flawed in various ways. This means match-ups against most of the cast matter; Sheik is a bit better than Rosalina against other characters in top 5, but I think Rosalina outperforms Sheik sufficiently against characters outside of the top 5 to just edge Sheik out on the list (but it's close!). Obviously as one guy my knowledge is imperfect, but I feel like this is the best, most honest representation of how I see this game's balance that I can provide.

I can explain what I'm thinking about any of these placements which could be a fun discussion, but just as much, I'm curious what sorts of lists other people are keeping. Like I said, we may be happy to have this stuff documented in a few years when no one remembers what this version of the game plays like. It would also be interesting to see where we all actually agree and where we all disagree.

If I had to record what I thought would roughly represent the customs on meta-game at this point in time, as a time stamp, it would probably looks something like this, keeping in mind the letters are literally just there to signify a (usually slight) gap in viability:

Top:
S:
A+:
A:

High:
B+:
B:

Mid:
C+:
C:
C-:

Low:
D+:

As the tiers get lower, the order of placing becomes less important. I'd like to be able to say I have a firm grasp on where each character sits in their tier outside of top and to a lesser extent high, but sadly there were some characters we just very rarely talked about, which I'm hoping we will post-patch, such as ROB, Wario and Olimar.

So that's about what I think of the cast before the patch. The letters don't mean anything important other than gaps, you could substitute them with numbers if you so desired. In many ways it's similar, in some it's different.

Diddy is undisputed top right now, the risk v reward is skewed enough in his favour that it would take years for Sheik's frame data to catch up. I considered for a while leaving Sheik in the same tier but decided that considering the high likelihood Diddy will get nerfed, the differences in their viability at this stage of the meta were big enough to not let Sheik's potential tamper with the list. Which isn't so say Sheik wasn't the obvious second. She's still obnoxious and safe against half the cast, with combos and kill setups to boot. Customs are pretty decent with her too.

Sonic and Rosalina I debated on for a while as to who to put third. Sonic traditionally has been taking that position, however in a customs on environment Dabuz has been showing off the power of shooting star bit in all its glory. I decided to err on the side of caution and keep Sonic at 3rd but reluctantly. Directly behind them, Zero Suit Samus is still very powerful but I decided heavy skull bash means quite a lot for Pikachu and in the hands of another ESAM would probably leave a devastating wake behind the rodent.

Luigi and Ness rounded off this line, I was considering putting them in the below line, however they still have results and potency to back up their weaknesses. Luigi's devastating combo game is still killing at ludicrous percents and iceball is apparently very potent on him, whilst Shaky recently proved Ness is still easily solo viable ("Back throw... yep, still works.") by taking a very close 2nd against M2K's diddy.

Yoshi wants fresh results but is still crazy mobile and has all the tools to have advantageous match-ups across the board. Megafox and NAKAT are putting in work with Fox and his mobility and safety are relatively high, giving him a good spot on my list. Falcon and Mii Brawler are still getting good results pretty consistently, and Villager's ledge camping is too stronk tools are strong enough in a customs on environment to strengthen his viability to that of a top tier imo.

More sparsely, Palutena's grab combos that kill at some wacky percents are still awesome, lightweight and super speed are still god tier moves. The theoretics behind Pac-Man as well as Japan still make me believe in him, some of his MUs look horribly skewed in his favour but this could have changed.

Doc I was conflicted about, because although I buy into the idea quite heavily that he really can't be that bad if Mario's so good, I also don't see many results with Doc in them. This conflict has led me to put him in mid. Wii Fit Trainer is purely Australian bias talking, but it turns out she really does have more than odd hitboxes and -5000 MUs against Kirby and G&W.

As much as Robin's dead zone hurts him, I just can't believe this character would be in bottom tier, not with a top player that has at least to this point shown they can still do so well. The character suffers from a lacking neutral game but can demand respect under the right circumstances and punishes fiercely and kills pretty decently. I don't see how there is any justification for this character being at the bottom.

Samus I believe has some pretty godly customs that make her camping and killing game much more fluid and efficient. Bowser fell from grace, but I don't believe he's low tier quite yet when his damage is that rewarding.

Marth and Lucina unfortunately do find life very hard in smash 4. Here's hoping the patch will help them out a little. =)

yaddiyadda.