Character Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

I don't see enough ROB, so I never challenge low positions for him. Can we hear about any of MUs? I can't think of that many good ones, but then again I'm not qualified to do that thinking in the first place. I dropped him after Brawl, and even then I played a limited amount of him (not a main).

I dunno, I just know I hate fighting him. I feel like he has pretty good zoning potential and he can make it pretty hard for the opponent to get to him.

He really has a problem with being juggled though. What with having the most laggy N-Air and D-Air.

 

[Teshie U]

sucks that they give all da broken moves to the characters with good stats already.

This time around I can only think of one move that is truly overpowered, Diddy Uair. The amount of coverage and power on that move while also being one of the fastest aerials in the game was asking for trouble. Its just so quick that it becomes absurdly easy to set up out of anything.

All the other good characters are just built up of solid options all around that leave them with less weaknesses.

 

[Vincent21]

This time around I can only think of one move that is truly overpowered, Diddy Uair. The amount of coverage and power on that move while also being one of the fastest aerials in the game was asking for trouble. Its just so quick that it becomes absurdly easy to set up out of anything.

All the other good characters are just built up of solid options all around that leave them with less weaknesses.

Uh...

Bouncing Fish for Shiek, Dash Attack for Yoshi, a lot more than uair for Diddy, Quick Attack for Pikachu...

As a matter of fact, I'd argue that despite how balanced this game is everyone who is good (which is a lot of characters this time around) has their gimmick. Some kind of gimmick.

Falcon's dash grab, Wario's air mobility, Sonic's constant neutral button, Luacrio's Aura, LM's ground game, Marth's tippers, Mario's unique gimps...

It's battle of the quirks.

 

[HeroMystic]

...has a reasonable Diddy match-up that was visible even in sloppy play (dare I say even or beyond, like dude Espy gave up a free stock and this is the only high tier character I consistently don't get stuffed by/work hard personally)

Lets not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[Teshie U]

Tippers, Aura, Superlative speed and ground pressure (Sonic/Little Mac), "unique gimps" and air mobility aren't moves. These are all things that affect entire movesets.

 

[FullMoon]

What unique gimps do Mario even have? I mean, Swordfighter has a cape-like move and I think one of Zelda's customs for Nayru's Love does it too; and Greninja has Hydro Pump, those cover the two gimping tools Mario has. Unless you're talking about something I don't know of.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario has the combination of both.

 

[Sinister Slush]

This time around I can only think of one move that is truly overpowered, Diddy Uair. The amount of coverage and power on that move while also being one of the fastest aerials in the game was asking for trouble. Its just so quick that it becomes absurdly easy to set up out of anything.

All the other good characters are just built up of solid options all around that leave them with less weaknesses.

Don't forget Luigi's grab, ZSS UpB, rosalina's halos and galaxies + Luma, Pika QA and Sheik's Bouncing fish.

Uh...
Dash Attack for Yoshi,

Yoshi's DA is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad m8
If it was Pre nerfed DA it'd be ok at best.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Don't forget Luigi's grab, ZSS UpB, rosalina's halos and galaxies + Luma, Pika QA and Sheik's Bouncing fish.

Those are good indeed, but none is as reliable as Diddy's Uair.
Diddy can combo Uair into Uair, juggle with it, zone out, force airdodges and/or frametrap, escape pressure, break out of combos, or simply throw it out of the blue when falling to get a surprise kill.
It's a ridiculous move.

 

[Ffamran]

But on the other hand, Falco has a legitimately strong Jab (probably one of the best jabs in the game), a stronger U-air, a better F-air for edgeguard kills, and his grabs are no longer regulated to just being D-throw since B-throw kills and U-throw sets up for a U-air kill (F-Throw is the odd man out but it's pretty freaken cool aesthetically). We also cannot forget his second biggest change which is Falco no longer goes into freefall with Phantasm giving him a much better recovery overall.

Though I do agree: Falco's blaster nerf is the biggest of all his changes, and is crippling. However, it's only crippling if you look at it in comparison to Falco in Brawl. Falco's frame data coupled with the engine changes makes me understand where they were trying to go with Falco's design when you examine the whole package. It's just his hitboxes on some of his moves are janky and there isn't enough to compensate for his lack of a god-tier projectile.

F-throw at low percents apparently combos into Falco Phantasm. That's all I know about F-throw aside from using it to throw someone off the ledge and going for a hard Falco Phantasm meteor read.

Falco's frame data, the changes in the engine, and everything makes him, as many have said before including Shofu recently, an honest character. He can't exploit anything like in previous games, but that puts him at both an advantage and disadvantage. All of Falco's moves even Blaster when used in the right moments or even Fire Bird, @pawclaw got a gimp off of it with against Big Boss's Ike a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQktIelaG8E, just work and flow. He is one of the few characters that can combo out of almost all of his grabs and make use of his grabs well. Every move has a purpose and works well: Jab is a jab, Ftilt spaces and can sort of combo into itself if someone decides it's a great idea to walk into Falco over and over, Dtilt launches, punishes, and kills; Utilt acts as an anti air, combos, juggles on the ground, and kills later; Dash Attack sets up combos and can sort of punish because of its late hitbox, Up Smash combos, is sort of an anti air, and kills so long as the first hit doesn't screw Falco over; Down Smash spaces, kills, and is a fantastic OOS move; Side Smash punishes incredibly hard, Nair combos, Uair combos, kills, and can sort of be used for an approach due to its low landing lag or it auto cancels - I need to check it -; Fair still gimps, but not brokenly, acts as a good aerial interrupter because of its priority, and racks up damage; Bair kills and spaces - I feel like Falco can RAR sort of well -; and Dair meteors like other meteors unlike his godplayer meteor in previous games.

On Specials, Fire Bird is a recovery, Falco Phantasm acts as Falco's burst movement option, meteors, and does free damage; Reflector spaces, reflects, and does free damage; and Blaster? Well, it can't zone or wall out people, but it can still gimp if it hits right after a second jump, it interrupts, and it's free, but usually risky damage. That's his advantage: being a solid character.

The disadvantage? Nothing, absolutely nothing to exploit. If Falco could exploit his Bair, then he'd be insane; Wolf could, but Wolf's Bair, I think, wasn't as strong as SSB4 Falco's and Brawl functioned differently. Even his customs don't give him anything to exploit. Reflector Void? Yeah, if it hits, it'll do some damage, but try landing that in the air. It's not as easy when you're on the ground. Granted, it gives Falco a ranged version of his Uair.

In terms of moves, Jab combo, Up Smash, Blaster, and his grab range are the only issues I feel Falco have. Jab is great, it's a frame 2 Jab, but it doesn't actually connect from Jab 2 to Rapid Jab which is easily SDI or is it DI? out of. Floaties like Kirby and Jigglypuff will get out almost instantly. Hell, Jigglypuff might not want to go out, instead, Jigglypuff might want to get close and land a Rest. I've been KO'd a couple of times because of that. For Kirby, it's a free way of get out, let Falco end the Rapid Jab or just Stone the poor bird. If anything, Jab might be able to combo to Utilt and maybe Reflector since they both come out at frame 5. People have tried Jab 1, Jab 2, grab, but I don't know if that's worth it. Up Smash suffers from the first hit's knockback sometimes being too much which whiffs the second hit and probably makes it the weakest Smash in the game - the first hit does 4% and whiffing the 12% second hit really sucks. At the same time, Up Smash might not connect if Falco's fighting a short or crouching character and is facing away from them. The animation will show Falco's foot phasing through them and nothing happens. Blaster, well, we covered that already. Grab range is also another hitbox issue. Falco's hands... I mean just look at them; his fingers are freaking long and his hands are big, but his hitbox might be smaller than Fox's which means whiffed grabs will show his hand phase through people. I think Ganondorf also suffers from this.

Add in his mobility, but once again, from a balancing standpoint, it makes sense. Brawl Wolf didn't have SSB4 Falco's power, but he made it up with being able to string attack after attack, having attacks move him, and being able to survive much longer than Fox or Falco, so his air speed was justified since if he was slow in the air and on the ground and had those attacks, he probably wouldn't be hold his status on the tier. Fox's basically a fragile speedster with burst attacks - Up Smash, Uair, Side Smash, Down Smash, Bair, etc. Fox will run around people racking up damage. Falco is more like a glass cannon; he hits hard, but won't be able to take a lot of hits even with his fast falling whereas Ganondorf is a mighty glacier and Captain Falcon is a lightning bruiser, but also an all or nothing fighter.

To sum this up, Falco to me is part of the purely fundamentals based character of Marth, Lucina, Kirby, Ganondorf, Zelda, Mario, Dr. Mario, and even Little Mac. Nothing major to abuse from them and in the end, it's the player's skill that will take them wherever. Hmm, I feel like adding the Pits to here too now that I think about it. Maybe DK and Bowser? How about Charizard or Meta Knight? Technically, all characters can be considered fundamentals based, but some characters have something that puts them ahead or defines them like Peach being a technical character, Link having access to an arsenal to wall out people, Rosalina & Luma being a puppeteer and puppet type character, or Diddy being Diddy.

What unique gimps do Mario even have? I mean, Swordfighter has a cape-like move and I think one of Zelda's customs for Nayru's Love does it too; and Greninja has Hydro Pump, those cover the two gimping tools Mario has. Unless you're talking about something I don't know of.

Can Mario gimp with his Nair? I think Captain Falcon can if he only hits with the first part of his Nair, Fox can too with his Nair, and maybe Luigi, Yoshi, and Dr. Mario.

 

[Vincent21]

Tippers, Aura, Superlative speed and ground pressure (Sonic/Little Mac), "unique gimps" and air mobility aren't moves. These are all things that affect entire movesets.

Yup. I clearly got ahead of myself and misunderstood the statements being made. My apologies.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves.

You know. That wasn't a horrible set, but as things got more dire I could literally feel Espy going on tilt.

Like drawing attention to that last game where had had stock lead, was doing just fine... and then just starts throwing smashes against shields for no reason, forgetting entirely how to even patience. It was really bad. Raw dsmash in neutral? Sitting on the ground charging random usmash? Dude was letting this guy in his head.

I feel like that visibly sloppier play sort of contributes to the picture in a somewhat disingenuous way. Feel free to argue that one, but yeah. I think he could have easily taken quite a few of those games if the chokes were not real.

But they were. Really real.

Honestly I just see a lot of struggling with Side B here. Some of it unnecessary (it's frame 1 just press and hold A for once in your life pls Espy ;-; I only remember like two jab combos all set and it's super safe to hit that button in that MU so I dunno why we saw it so little it's a pet peeve of mine).

I like those first few games though. Loss or not. It's ironic his first round with Mac was closer than the pick to Sonic. Wasn't a horrible set, but I clearly see your point. I'm honestly still convinced the mu isn't bad at all because It was consistently totally doable for him to gain stock leads and just in general put huge damage on Diddy off of relatively simple punishes and (I'm going to go blue in the face) despite already doing pretty well in neutral he could've done even better by just taking a moment every now and then when an obvious SideB throw was coming to hold jabs. You literally stuff the grab that way, and you can do it on reaction or just hold the button after a whiffed ftilt which denies dash grab, sideB, and nana without putting you at any risk.

Yoshi's DA is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad m8
If it was Pre nerfed DA it'd be ok at best.

I'm just going to 200% take your word on that because I only played the character Pre-Nerf, and just remember it being an insanely long lasting hitbox that started up early and denied sooooo much space in front of him, being a huge way to cut off a lot of options on a landing character and just in general making his advantage state better by making it effortless to punish landings.

 

[adom4]

From my personal matchup chart:



Some extra notes:
Sheik is often cited as our worst, but I don't think it's awful. It requires patient defense, because she can put a lot of safe pressure on Mega. It's almost a true offense vs defense game that I have come to really enjoy. That said, needle camping is... ugh. And her trump/offstage game is so so good.

Falcon plays a rock paper scissors game when he wants to approach from a dash. Duck beats dash grab but loses to dash attack and shield beats dash attack. The reward off of both of those 2, for Mega, is a utilt if executed properly (crouch>utilt is hard and sourspot utilt happens too often). The reward for Falcon is uairs and complete stage control. I see it ending up closer to even with practice, but Falcon racks up so much damage and has the weight to not care about MB/pellets at low %'s.


Edit: Would love to hear thoughts on this. I know I'm a black sheep when it comes to the Marcina matchup, though.

Edit harder: without customs. I don't have a lot of MU experience with customs yet.

Do you have any tips for the Ganondorf vs MM matchup?
It feels like this matchup is mostly hard for Dorf due to the lemons, they stop almost everything he has.

 

[NairWizard]

Falco's ground mobility isn't bad. His running speed is bad and his initial dash is mediocre, but his walk speed is great (10th best in the game) and his pivot/options out of pivot are all great. Mobility doesn't hold Falco back. Of course, he would appreciate more mobility, but only in the way that any character would appreciate a non-trivial boost to a less-than-top-tier stat. What holds Falco back is being horrible in disadvantage. His n-air is awful for getting out of combos, he's a fastfaller vulnerable to SH aerials, his recovery is abusable... Falco is pretty bad once you get him in the air, which is ironic, because he apparently prefers the air.

 

[thehard]

An off-stage Luigi Cyclone seems like a free gimp in a lot of cases, as demonstrated twice by Boss today.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's ground mobility isn't bad. His running speed is bad and his initial dash is mediocre, but his walk speed is great (10th best in the game) and his pivot/options out of pivot are all great. Mobility doesn't hold Falco back. Of course, he would appreciate more mobility, but only in the way that any character would appreciate a non-trivial boost to a less-than-top-tier stat. What holds Falco back is being horrible in disadvantage. His n-air is awful for getting out of combos, he's a fastfaller vulnerable to SH aerials, his recovery is abusable... Falco is pretty bad once you get him in the air, which is ironic, because he apparently prefers the air.

Yeah, I remember Shaya saying Falco's disadvantage sucks. Case in point: the moment Rosalina, Jigglypuff, or Palutena launches him into the air. The only thing Falco can hope for is: "Don't hit me". They will all juggle him for days because of his air speed and fall speed. If Falco's lucky, he might be able to air dodge, Falco Phantasm out, or even punish them. That said, Falco will need to figure out how to reset to neutral or get to advantage. The only time Falco wants to be in the air is if he's the reason someone's in the air.

As a frame 3 Nair, if it connects, it connects and might be able to interrupt whatever is happening, but the issue is that it won't be until the fourth and final hit comes out which does the most knockback and that doesn't happen until frame 21. Yeah. Ganondorf or Captain Falcon using their Nairs to get out will have a much, much easier time. It might be possible, though, to use Falco's Bair as a way to get out of combos. It's essentially a pseudo-sex kick because of how fast it is - frame 4 -, but it doesn't have much of a front hitbox mostly because it's Wolf's Bair instead of his own Melee and Brawl Bair. The only issue is how to connect it since Falco would probably be facing towards his opponent while he's getting bodied. Uair and Fair would be nice if they weren't frame 10 and frame 12 moves. Don't even try Dair. Hmm... I'm wondering about Reflector for getting out of combos since it hits in front of him and comes out at frame 5.

 

[Yonder]

An off-stage Luigi Cyclone seems like a free gimp in a lot of cases, as demonstrated twice by Boss today.

I'm assuming you're going to have to know the jumpless cyclone to make it back, though.

Otherwise it actually seems like a fantastic gimp move when I think about it. I just never use it for that because I can't make it back on the stage after. Must...learn...to mash...

 

[Sunnysunny]

An off-stage Luigi Cyclone seems like a free gimp in a lot of cases, as demonstrated twice by Boss today.

It's damned deadly!
I main a character with an absolutely brain dead recovery, so take it with a grain of salt, but I can see it giving a horrible amount of trouble to those less fortunate. I really think a decent chunk of the cast doesn't have much of an answer to it.

EDIT: Wooow wait espy has a pocket Mac? Yoo. Props to that. I guess that character would be your style huh?

 

[Antonykun]

Jigglypuff is slept on soooooooooo much.

Jigglypuff isn't slept on she sleeps on you. Jiggs is really annoying to play because her ground buttons are good and necessary but dear Lord is she slow on the ground.

 

[Ultinarok]

I'm actually kind of feeling this. I don't know why Falco is that low, though.

Like this character is probably one of the most misunderstood in the game, and I main Little Mac so that impresses me. Like Falco's mobility is unconventional, but considering the sheer distance he gets on foxtrotting (didn't Shaya cover this iirc? did no one actually take it to the lab and give it a shot if they felt the need to study the character?) he actually has strong repositioning and even a robust set of offensive options while approaching, has a great set of moves, combos effectively and even has tools for incentivizing approach to compensate what little he does lose over his move-speed. This is actually, like Dark Peach (who I did see on stream that was siiick) another character who got nice exposure on Shofu's last stream. That's honestly just a good place to turn people because it's several hours of both of these underrepresented characters and it's easy reach. WATCH IT :v

As for Little Mac I'm just going to refer back to the Espy footage and point something out in the game against Diddy.

Espy... despite his amazing, edge-of-my-seat comeback, made A LOT of mistakes. A lot of easy, you-don't-need-to-make-these-mistakes kind of mistakes. He almost never just threw jabs when he needed to. Literally just holding A on a lot of the blatant ground approaches made toward him instead of throwing preemptive ftilts that he wasn't even properly spacing with would have taken him a LONG way toward an easier game, and probably could've even given him an ending with a stock lead considering the comeback he was able to make regardless.

But he won anyway. Look at, even on a frankly non-ideal stage, how much of a margin of error Little Mac had against Diddy, the literal top of tier. We got people in here arguing how their main isn't bottom tier like "well yo don't cross me okay I've got this almost even match-up against an A- tier, ya know..."

Little Mac arguably beats Rosalina, has a reasonable Diddy match-up that was visible even in sloppy play (dare I say even or beyond, like dude Espy gave up a free stock and this is the only high tier character I consistently don't get stuffed by/work hard personally), and has a smaller disadvantage against Shiek and Yoshi than most of the cast, and he still struggles for even half the recognition of characters on this list no one even plays because "boo hoo Duck Hunt and platforms, oh my bleeding heart"

It just honestly isn't that bad, and neither is he.



Until proven otherwise I wield the same conviction I can't think of anyone who's afraid of anything sans Aura+Rage that this character has to bring to the table, and even that just brings him to par. Like every time I play against this character it basically plays out as "walk all over him until brookylnrage.exe kicks in, then the game begins" but by then he's already at disadvantage sooo.... good luck with that.



I don't see enough ROB, so I never challenge low positions for him. Can we hear about any of MUs? I can't think of that many good ones, but then again I'm not qualified to do that thinking in the first place. I dropped him after Brawl, and even then I played a limited amount of him (not a main).

Little Mac was really tough because his MU are probably the hardest in the game to judge. If he stays planted, he's one of the best characters in the game. If he gets airborne, he becomes among the worst. I really had no idea where to put him, but his performance is very stage dependent, and his MUs are very polarizing, so I put him in low-mid because he's so limited by his stage and his opponent, more than any other character. That said, most have said he's a hell of a secondary, because the MUs where he excels are brutal for his opponent. He's a great choice for counterpicks.

 

[mimgrim]

Jigglypuff isn't slept on she sleeps on you. Jiggs is really annoying to play because her ground buttons are good and necessary but dear Lord is she slow on the ground.

That's why you tomahawk with her instead of walking/running.

 

[Terotrous]

I was thinking about Kirby today, and how if you just said to someone, "Here's a character with on average some of the lowest landing lag on aerials in the game, and also a frame 1 jab," they'd probably be all impressed.

Isn't Kirby's Jab frame 3? that's what it says in Thinkaman's Frame Data thread.

At any rate, Kirby is pretty decent up close, with 3 frame jab and his super low profile DTilt. The biggest problem for him is just getting there against anyone with any zoning capability.

Lucario is booty.
Usable booty, but bootycheeks anyways.
Does anyone really have a disadvantageous MU against him? I mean this in the most "Lucario is not what he was hyped to be" sort of way I could possibly mean... without trying to call him unusable...

Well, as we all agreed from the beginning, people who have trouble killing have the worst matchups vs him, so I'd certainly expect him to be plus over DHD. I'm sure there must be a few others.

So i decided to play some zelda.

its different. like i played with her before and even learned some basic stuff like reatreating air dins and junk.

But what is so weird with her is that she is neutral like all the time. her advantage and disadvantage are like non exsistant. her matches are all just rounded out to weird chess games. Not that thats all bad. hell it could even work in her favor a bit with a few tweaks to her character.

-hold phantom charge
-no free fall dins fire.

ect ect

How to fix Zelda:

- Revert all normals to Brawl hitboxes and damage
- Din's Fire no longer goes into freefall

Honestly I think with just these two things she would be decent. New UpB is a pretty solid buff, which would be great if everything else about her didn't end up getting worse.

You should never aim to balance a bad character by giving them something broken.

I don't really agree. Almost all of the good characters in this game have something that's kinda broken. Unless you plan to remove all of those things (and people would scream bloody murder if you did), you almost have to give other characters some broken stuff so they can compete.

In general, I think people actually enjoy the brokeness. Every usable character in Melee is super bonkers broken, and yet people still love that game.

Uh...

Bouncing Fish for Shiek, Dash Attack for Yoshi, a lot more than uair for Diddy, Quick Attack for Pikachu...

As a matter of fact, I'd argue that despite how balanced this game is everyone who is good (which is a lot of characters this time around) has their gimmick. Some kind of gimmick.

I actually don't think Yoshi Dash Attack is a broken move. In 1.0.0 it was, but they gave it more endlag and you can't just throw it out willy nilly anymore. A good move, sure, but most characters have ways to get around it if they anticipate it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'd just like to point out that Customs Doc is hilarious and Soaring Tornado continues to impress me the more I give it a whirl. 19 active frames on the last part (which can hit people) all of which are the same power, able to kill on-stage at like, 120% without rage.

Customs Doc is so much more real. Fast Capsule is really good when combined with Nado cause it gives him much better defensive specs (I think Doc gets more out of Fast Capsule than Mario does out of Fast Fireball because unlike Mario, Doc has bad movement so a quick burst projectile like this helps so much)

I think if anybody is interested in playing this character the Customs meta should be pushed because it changes him from a fairly low-note character to a still flawed but much stronger and more viable character, obviously not recommendable over Mario but it makes him even more different while not totally bad.

Did I mention the fact that Breezy Sheet doesn't stall = a good thing? Doc has a very good empty jump fastfall game because of how fast he falls and how low his jump is, being able to mix that up with a windbox can be really scary at high levels, I imagine. Also works great for conditioning!

 

[Noa.]

While we're on the subject of customs, I'll mention Ness's customs to give people an idea of where his stands.

Ness only has three useable customs: PK Fire Burst, Lasting PK Thunder, and PSI Vacuum

PK Fire Burst has more range than default PK Fire and will fire horizontally in the air unlike default pk fire. Instead of capturing them in a pillar of flames, PK Fire Burst will just hit the opponent for 8% and knock them away. PK Fire Burst is useable but outclassed by default PK Fire for the most part. You would only take PK Fire Burst if your opponent's character was able to quickly SDI out of default PK Fire consistently.

Lasting PK Thunder is a pretty excellent move. I think it is better than default pk thunder in certain matchups. Here's how they compare:

Default Pk Thunder

• Faster
• Deals more damage on hit
• Because it's faster and has more damage, is more effective at juggling
• Can KO with pkt2 at ridiculous percents

Lasting Pk Thunder

• Can gimp and stage spike characters at really low percents
• Has tighter turns and controls
• Has better shield pressure, especially on opponents stuck on platforms
• The whole projectile has transcendent priority
• PKT2 goes further and is thus a better recovery

I was also able to do this with Lasting PK Thunder the other day:

PSI Vacuum replaces PSI Magnet with a hitbox attack. Might as well take it if you can't absorb anything.


All the rest of Ness's custom moves are uninspiring and not that good.

 

[Antonykun]

While we're on the subject of customs, I'll mention Ness's customs to give people an idea of where his stands.

Ness only has three useable customs: PK Fire Burst, Lasting PK Thunder, and PSI Vacuum

PK Fire Burst has more range than default PK Fire and will fire horizontally in the air unlike default pk fire. Instead of capturing them in a pillar of flames, PK Fire Burst will just hit the opponent for 8% and knock them away. PK Fire Burst is useable but outclassed by default PK Fire for the most part. You would only take PK Fire Burst if your opponent's character was able to quickly SDI out of default PK Fire consistently.

Lasting PK Thunder is a pretty excellent move. I think it is better than default pk thunder in certain matchups. Here's how they compare:

Default Pk Thunder

• Faster
• Deals more damage on hit
• Because it's faster and has more damage, is more effective at juggling
• Can KO with pkt2 at ridiculous percents

Lasting Pk Thunder

• Can gimp and stage spike characters at really low percents
• Has tighter turns and controls
• Has better shield pressure, especially on opponents stuck on platforms
• The whole projectile has transcendent priority
• PKT2 goes further and is thus a better recovery

I was also able to do this with Lasting PK Thunder the other day:

PSI Vacuum replaces PSI Magnet with a hitbox attack. Might as well take it if you can't absorb anything.


All the rest of Ness's custom moves are uninspiring and not that good.

If I ever get hit by a rolling PK thunder, I'm going to cry

 

[Luco]

If I ever get hit by a rolling PK thunder, I'm going to cry

Much less than I'll cry when Villager mains start using pocket plus against us.

 

[Antonykun]

Much less than I'll cry when Villager mains start using pocket plus against us.

I'm actually trying to get pocket plus on AA custom moves project. You should go there and stop me. That reminds me Pika's customs are bad except for thunder wave and heavy skull bash.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Do you have any tips for the Ganondorf vs MM matchup?
It feels like this matchup is mostly hard for Dorf due to the lemons, they stop almost everything he has.

What helped me was using Dropkick, which goes straight through the lemons. It's also hard for MM to kill Ganon outside of gimps consistently, so being able to mix up your recovery better is another advantage. If customs aren't an option I tend not to do well against good MMs, so I'm not sure what can help you there.

 

[mimgrim]

Seriosuly though. I don't get why Jiggs is so criminally underrated (espically in this thread). She has great damage per hit, has a surprisingly solid ground game (she just wants to get to the ground from the air, if that makes any sense), has one of the best (if not the best) aerial games of the cast, Fantastic air speed and mobility, insane offstage game. The only thing keeping her in check is her incredible light weight and floatiness making her a glass canon, slow ground speed and mobility (which isn't a big deal given her air speed), and 2 useless Specials.

Why is she so underrated in this thread.

I personally think she is a top 10/15 contender but you guys aren't ready for that yet

 

[wedl!!]

Little Mac arguably beats Rosalina

excuse me but what

 

[Antonykun]

Seriosuly though. I don't get why Jiggs is so criminally underrated (espically in this thread). She has great damage per hit, has a surprisingly solid ground game (she just wants to get to the ground from the air, if that makes any sense), has one of the best (if not the best) aerial games of the cast, Fantastic air speed and mobility, insane offstage game. The only thing keeping her in check is her incredible light weight and floatiness making her a glass canon, slow ground speed and mobility (which isn't a big deal given her air speed), and 2 useless Specials.

Why is she so underrated in this thread.

I personally think she is a top 10/15 contender but you guys aren't ready for that yet

I can only speak about myself but i think Wario and Jiggs are very similar and Wario has Chomp and Bike. I will say Jiggs is harder to play despite being really simple to play. I also believe that Jiggs is frightening when played well.

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly I think the main thing holding Jiggs back is just her atrocious defense. She's basically Akuma in terms of life, but without commensurately dominating offense.

Note that GW's defense also holds him back, and he's not even quite as bad as poor Jiggs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jiggz is solid mid tier at worst.

G&W is booty butt cheeks.

 

[mimgrim]

Jiggs doesn't have a bad defense, in fact her defensive options are pretty great. Nair is a great defensive (and offensive) tool, Fair/Bair WoP is good, short hop air dodge, and a few other things I'm sure I'm forgetting. Just do not shield (and there is more to defense then just shield).

She does have horrible survivability though, and though this can tie to defense it still isn't the same thing.

 

[Terotrous]

She does have horrible survivability though, and though this can tie to defense it still isn't the same thing.

That's basically what I meant. There's nothing particularly wrong with her neutral game that causes her to take inordinately many hits, but she just has so few to give due to her weight. You have to significantly win the damage race with her just to keep pace in terms of stocks.

 

[Noa.]

For Jiggs, I think it's very hard for her to win a match without landing at least one rest kill. If she doesn't kill at least once with rest then she will usually fall too far behind to win. If and once Jiggs players start optimizing rest punishes, then her success rate will skyrocket.

In my opinion anyways.

 

[Conda]

Yeah, I remember Shaya saying Falco's disadvantage sucks. Case in point: the moment Rosalina, Jigglypuff, or Palutena launches him into the air. The only thing Falco can hope for is: "Don't hit me". They will all juggle him for days because of his air speed and fall speed. If Falco's lucky, he might be able to air dodge, Falco Phantasm out, or even punish them. That said, Falco will need to figure out how to reset to neutral or get to advantage. The only time Falco wants to be in the air is if he's the reason someone's in the air.

As a frame 3 Nair, if it connects, it connects and might be able to interrupt whatever is happening, but the issue is that it won't be until the fourth and final hit comes out which does the most knockback and that doesn't happen until frame 21. Yeah. Ganondorf or Captain Falcon using their Nairs to get out will have a much, much easier time. It might be possible, though, to use Falco's Bair as a way to get out of combos. It's essentially a pseudo-sex kick because of how fast it is - frame 4 -, but it doesn't have much of a front hitbox mostly because it's Wolf's Bair instead of his own Melee and Brawl Bair. The only issue is how to connect it since Falco would probably be facing towards his opponent while he's getting bodied. Uair and Fair would be nice if they weren't frame 10 and frame 12 moves. Don't even try Dair. Hmm... I'm wondering about Reflector for getting out of combos since it hits in front of him and comes out at frame 5.

I think this is where Fast Firebird comes into play. Very useful Up B solution that solves a lot of his issues. The lesser range on it isn't that big a deal, as Falco retains some momentum after using it, so he can go pretty far to autosnap the ledge with this. Try it out.
Also having Void Reflector be an actually useful aerial option, whereas default reflector sucks aerially as it'll be punished often even on hit.

 

[mimgrim]

That's basically what I meant. There's nothing particularly wrong with her neutral game that causes her to take inordinately many hits, but she just has so few to give due to her weight. You have to significantly win the damage race with her just to keep pace in terms of stocks.

And she is built around that. Her DPH is really really good, it's like almost on par with a fatty, and she can get some pretty early kills through gimping, carrying the opponent to the blast zone, or through Rest punishes (which still needs to be optimized hard, especially by myself).

For Jiggs, I think it's very hard for her to win a match without landing at least one rest kill. If she doesn't kill at least once with rest then she will usually fall too far behind to win. If and once Jiggs players start optimizing rest punishes, then her success rate will skyrocket.

In my opinion anyways.

Rest is an important tool no doubt but it isn't that impotant. She can still get early kills by gimping and carrying the opponent to the blast zones which are just as important. But yea, getting early kills with her is very important but Rest is only way way to accomplish that.

 

[Terotrous]

And she is built around that. Her DPH is really really good, it's like almost on par with a fatty, and she can get some pretty early kills through gimping, carrying the opponent to the blast zone, or through Rest punishes (which still needs to be optimized hard, especially by myself).

Her offense is certainly fine (and much better than it was in Brawl), but I still don't feel it's quite good enough relative to just how bad her survivability is. The top characters have comparable offense without that weakness, which results in her being more of a mid-tier character IMO.


Granted, I don't think the way to fix Jiggs is to make her offense completely bananas like it was in Melee, it's probably best just to up her survivability a tad.

 

[mimgrim]

She also has good defensive stuff to help her minimize getting hit.

It's important for every character but doubly so for Jiggs.

Don't get hit.

Learn it. Love it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

She also has good defensive stuff to help her minimize getting hit.

It's important for every character but doubly so for Jiggs.

Don't get hit.

Learn it. Love it.

yeah but when a character like diddy is roaming around with 800 kill set ups and options haveing low survivavillity seems really REALLY problematic.