Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

Lucario is booty.
Usable booty, but bootycheeks anyways.
Does anyone really have a disadvantageous MU against him? I mean this in the most "Lucario is not what he was hyped to be" sort of way I could possibly mean... without trying to call him unusable...

 

[Nu~]

Yeah I had him higher, like I said, I just heard a couple Pac-Man mains say he's held to mid tier by his grab and KO problems. I moved him up to the top end of mid tier, may move him up more if enough people agree he is high-mid.

It was really only one pac-main who specifically said mid tier, meanwhile everyone else in the pac-man thread believes that he is a high mid/high tier character despite his flaws.

 

[Ultinarok]

It was really only one pac-main who specifically said mid tier, meanwhile everyone else in the pac-man thread believes that he is a high mid/high tier character despite his flaws.

Your right. My bad. Thanks for the update, I'll move him up. Since the tiers are not solid, that means I'll move him up again and bring someone down. Someone mentioned Lucario not being very good. I thought he was still high-mid based on his absurd rage and aura scaling power. Have these been determined to not be enough to leave him that high?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Does naryu's love beat QA? can someone confirm?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Have these been determined to not be enough to leave him that high?

Long, long ago back when dinosaurs walked the earth.
The ship has sailed and frankly player efficiency is only rising, Lucario's ability to take advantage of rage is only decreasing. Lucarios ability to make use of his % is only become more player dependent as his contemporaries metagames improve and their killing efficiency (and spacing) improves. While Lucario also grows, a significant part of his potency if not...the sole contributor is the difficulty we face in ending his stock, but killing is easier. Two weeks ago I trumped Lucario into a Back-air and that was it, no fuss and life is good.

 

[Ultinarok]

Long, long ago back when dinosaurs walked the earth.
The ship has sailed and frankly player efficiency is only rising, Lucario's ability to take advantage of rage is only decreasing and becoming a greater divide between strong and weak Lucario players as his oppositions ability to punish him has increased.

I knew this was enough to take him out of top 5, and even top 10, as most people originally had him placed, but not out of top 15 where I have him. Where do you think he belongs?

 

[Makorel]

Japan still seems to think highly of Lucario, or rather these Japanese guys who made a tier list https://game8.jp/matome/16664

 

[FullMoon]

Wasn't that list made a long time ago?

 

[Ultinarok]

Japan still seems to think highly of Lucario, or rather these Japanese guys who made a tier list https://game8.jp/matome/16664

Japan's meta is different from ours. And yeah, they made their list with a week or two of Wii U release, and they have Pit and Dark Pit 15 positions or so apart. That list is basically tournament-based only to my knowledge. Its definitely not accurate.

 

[Makorel]

I think it was updated. at the top of the page it says 2015 02 16.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Why would you say Zard is better than DK and Bowser? Most people have said that, without customs, Zard is slightly inferior to them, but I'd be willing to believe he may be better.

He's more mobile, has better recovery, and is a smaller target mainly. He's got some good Oos options, a good Jab and grab game, and Flamethrower can help spacing. Multiple jumps help with edgeguarding and make him harder to trap. Really he's just more versatile in exchange for a bit less power, which is generally a winning trade competitively speaking.

 

[Ultinarok]

He's more mobile, has better recovery, and is a smaller target mainly. He's got some good Oos options, a good Jab and grab game, and Flamethrower can help spacing. Multiple jumps help with edgeguarding and make him harder to trap. Really he's just more versatile in exchange for a bit less power, which is generally a winning trade competitively speaking.

Where would you put him instead? Who would you move down if I put him in low tier instead of bottom? I moved down Doc because I feel DK and Bowser shouldn't be bottom 6 due to their strengths and some of the defenses people have had for them, so I put Zard just ahead of both.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Where would you put him instead? Who would you move down if I put him in low tier instead of bottom? I moved down Doc because I feel DK and Bowser shouldn't be bottom 6 due to their strengths and some of the defenses people have had for them, so I put Zard just ahead of both.

i think people have a hard time adjusting to characters that actually arent poop being bottom tier.

if anything its just a token to this games balance.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Where would you put him instead? Who would you move down if I put him in low tier instead of bottom? I moved down Doc because I feel DK and Bowser shouldn't be bottom 6 due to their strengths and some of the defenses people have had for them, so I put Zard just ahead of both.

I'd probably put Mac or Falco in bottom before Doc, but I do think Zard is ahead of all of them(and DK/Bowser are ahead of them too, except maybe Doc). It's tough to say, because no one's really terrible in this game.

 

[Ultinarok]

I'd probably put Mac or Falco in bottom before Doc, but I do think Zard is ahead of all of them(and DK/Bowser are ahead of them too, except maybe Doc). It's tough to say, because no one's really terrible in this game.

Yeah Mac is always iffy for me because he's so polarizing. His huge weaknesses mean that he'll never be high tier, but putting him bottom neglects his absurd ground game and makes me feel it isn't doing it justice, because he has some good matchups and some terrible ones. Falco, I can see. He's been nerfed so hard its horrible. I just know some are getting decent results with him anyway, like Keitaro, so he still has some potential and I feel bottom, or even low, is underselling him based on how decently he's done. I dropped Doc because of his terribad mobility and his recovery, mainly. But on second thought, he has some solid tools, like Nado and Up B, plus a better damage-dealing, and sometimes even combo game, than Mario.

You're right, he probably should go back up. Who should get dropped then? Is Mac really worthy of being bottom?

 

[Ffamran]

I'd probably put Mac or Falco in bottom before Doc, but I do think Zard is ahead of all of them(and DK/Bowser are ahead of them too, except maybe Doc). It's tough to say, because no one's really terrible in this game.

I didn't want to say anything and as a Falco mod, people would think it's bias, but could you explain why you think Falco should be lower or should be in the bottom tier?

 

[HeavyLobster]

You're right, he probably should go back up. Who should get dropped then? Is Mac really worthy of being bottom?

Well the stage list means Mac's basically relegated to being a secondary, though he's quite capable in that respect. He probably belongs in his own separate tier outside of the normal tier list to reflect this.

I didn't want to say anything and as a Falco mod, people would think it's bias, but could you explain why you think Falco should be lower or should be in the bottom tier?

Bad mobility specs and a light weight. I'm not sure if he's really bottom, but I do think he's worse than all of the non-DDD heavyweights, who can at least take a beating better.

 

[wedl!!]

Japan still seems to think highly of Lucario, or rather these Japanese guys who made a tier list https://game8.jp/matome/16664

that tier list is from like november i believe

 

[Conda]

It is an old tier list. Google translate is helpful. It was posted recently, but it's an article specifically talking in-detail about the 1.04 3ds tier list that was assembled with data from a few 3ds tournaments.

------- Google Translate ---------

"Chara rank, I have been evaluated in the singles rules. Things and雖also, there are rules, depending on several tournament, but it summarizes the points you have in common. (The following summary)
- 3DS version Ver 1.0.4
- 1 Vs 1 (negligence)
- No item
- stage: the end of stage or + battlefield,
- 2 stock. Time limit 7 minutes. On this, I was determined by SHI-G members volunteer (11 people)."

"
Results Discussion
The last street of prophecy, the character that has entered from D rank to B rank, came out. It's Ness.This is a significant breakthrough that evaluation value +2.50. In addition to the results in the singles tournament such as Umebura · Wifi, smiling premium Fight: It arrived in eyes where it won any official 2on2 (the latter is not a singles ...).
Rise second place with Luigi, it was + 2.10. 2 people Some people wearing A evaluation. Rise third place in the villagers, it is + 1.87. A rank-filled Congratulations.

On the contrary, the top of descent decline, was -2.07 in goes without saying Gekkouga. Remain in the Mars that was down to the second -1.46, yet here for that it was meta game assessment down, Gekkouga is exactly tragedy If you look at the place where it was downfall in the downward revision of the system.

Although it is blurring of character evaluation, standard deviation was greater character two animals of the evaluation was Luigi Ness (respectively 1.40, 1.02). To be inferred from the above, the rise was character will was broken also evaluated. In overall standard deviation average 0.50, we are proud to have become quite hard thing as a 10-point scale scoring the chart with 11 people.


Source: Matome.Captainjack.Jp

Evaluation When word:
[9B than] character to defeat there Eaters put further it with character as vertices Didi, this neighborhood has become a criterion of the top character. Since the current situation midsize character feels much I am looking forward to my best of consumer of each character!
Possibility of up to C is to win as [than] Abadango sense Nakinishimoarazu, D following is feeling like a would be impossible to (skype log).

ver 1.0.4
First of all space-time rupture of this "November 18, 2014": The Smash Bros. for3DS version updates.
Various character is subject to upward-downward revision, change of tactics has been forced. In addition, it by the upper character is replaced, was another character rise and fall of takes place in accordance with the Miyakoochi of rise / old strength character of new strength character.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Gekkouga is exactly tragedy If you look at the place where it was downfall in the downward revision of the system."
Google translate is awesome.

Can we not dwell on posted tier lists by the way? Even going as far as to post one and frame it as a sort of community tier list?

Let's talk about Falco instead. Besides being average and underwhelming, how does this actually lead to losing more often than other characters and not being viable? I don't think he has crippling flaws or the ability to be counterpicked against and taken advantage of. Thus I don't think he can be low tier. He may be underwhelming, but that doesn't make him prone to being taken advantage of and unviable. Same goes for Marth. This is the defense used for Mario, back when we didn't know he was high tier and we thought he stank.

 

[Ffamran]

Bad mobility specs and a light weight. I'm not sure if he's really bottom, but I do think he's worse than all of the non-DDD heavyweights, who can at least take a beating better.

As a fast faller, Falco survives a bit better than other lightweights. I think this is the same with Fox. Mobility, yep... That's an issue. Falco is pretty much like a faster Ganondorf, so he won't be able to force approaches well or approach well, but he can punish well. Falco's Blaster alone allowed him to zone and force approaches in Brawl and Melee, but to a lesser extent since wavedashing was in Melee. Imagine Falco without a Blaster in both of those games. Yeah, pretty much or similar to this Falco.

From a design perspective, having the lasers travel both slow and having the end lag be slow as sin makes his Blaster situational compared to Fox who can at least use his ground speed to get away, the travel speed of Hero's Bow's arrows, or Palutena's/Silver Bow's ability to arc. Personally, I'd say his Blaster is much more situational compared to Autoreticle which at least shoots three times, the bolts travels fast, and they all do knockback. Falco's Blaster doesn't have that. If the lasers traveled faster, had more range, had a faster rate of fire, or the end lag was much shorter, then his Blaster would be much, much better while not being broken like in Brawl were it traveled fast, had a fast rate of fire, and it traveled far. Brawl Falco's lasers travel the entire length of FD, right? So, bias or not, I feel like the redesign of Falco's Blaster was taken way too far. Fox's is still usable, Mario's Fireballs are usable, and Diddy's Peanut Popgun is usable, and then you have Sheik's Needles and Luigi's Fireball. Should I mention how Luigi's Fireballs travel faster and do more damage while having good range?

Everything else about Falco is just fine even his poor air speed which makes no sense since he's a bird, but from a balancing perspective, could you imagine what Falco with say, Fox or Mega Man's air speed would be like? Hell, let's give him Mario's air speed. Falco would be broken because we would swoop in and murder you and swoop out while you're wondering what the hell just happened. It's just having nothing to force an approach or approach well that kills his game. Ganondorf can't approach well, but at least he can tank hits and hits like a tank. Falco hits more like a truck, but takes hits like a Corvette. Better than taking hits like an old Honda, but he's still fragile while being placed under this punisher game plan.

I also feel like Dair being slower was a change that needed to happen. Either be slower or be weaker since it was kind of ridiculous to have a fast and powerful meteor. Now it's essentially Captain Falcon's Nipple Spike and Ganondorf's Stomp - all three share the same hit frame of 16 -, but without the Capt.'s speed to follow up quickly or Ganondorf's raw power.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Ok, so I know we aren't supposed to be making pre-mature tier lists in any capacity, and I understand that our full MU knowledge is still hazy, but based on all of the discussion we've been doing, I've made a basic "ranking" list of sort based on who everyone believes to be the biggest threats, the most disadvantaged, the best MU scores, etc.

This is NOT my personal list. I'm using everyone's input to piece this list together, so anyone can feel free to correct anything on the list. I'll also make note that it has been some months since the game came out, we have some tournament results to show for, and we have over 400 pages of discussion, so I don't think its too soon to make a basic list like this. Again, no one needs to attack me for this, because I'm basing this on our discussion.

I put 7 characters per tier for simplicity's sake. Obviously an official list would not be divided this way. This is also WITHOUT customs. The reason I made this list is because, with customs now confirmed, I agree that we need some kind of basic, non-custom tier list just as a reference. This list is by no means perfect, just something I built from observing the discussion. The middle section is the most hazy. I took that from comments made by mains and tournament performances that I've witnessed, as well as just basic strength/weakness discussion.

Please don't flag this list, I just made it to summarize many ideas we've had and to get input on what is off about it. Again, this is not MY tier list, so to speak.

Top:

High:

High-Mid:

Mid:

Low-Mid:

Low:

Bottom:


Does this look at least basically accurate? If anyone sees anything critically wrong (like someone being way too high or low) let me know and I'll change it. Just trying to get a better idea as to how our meta is developing.

Some things I would change:
Swap and .
An untested tier should be created for the handful of characters who see no usage in tournaments or provide inconsistent results (i.e to name a few).
Possibly merge low and bottom tier as well. No character is completely unviable in this game.

 

[Kofu]

Basically Falco hits with the damage of a heavy, or at least a heavy hitter, with a lot of his attacks, and they reach farther than his small frame would suggest. He also has the highest jumps in the game and a few select tools (mainly Reflector) that help alleviate his poor horizontal mobility. His throws aren't bad either. I'd agree that he doesn't have any crippling weaknesses but that he doesn't have overwhelming strengths, although being light and a fast faller can lead him to being comboed.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

As a fast faller, Falco survives a bit better than other lightweights. I think this is the same with Fox. Mobility, yep... That's an issue. Falco is pretty much like a faster Ganondorf, so he won't be able to force approaches well or approach well, but he can punish well. Falco's Blaster alone allowed him to zone and force approaches in Brawl and Melee, but to a lesser extent since wavedashing was in Melee. Imagine Falco without a Blaster in both of those games. Yeah, pretty much or similar to this Falco.

From a design perspective, having the lasers travel both slow and having the end lag be slow as sin makes his Blaster situational compared to Fox who can at least use his ground speed to get away, the travel speed Hero's Bow's arrows, or Palutena's/Silver Bow's ability to arc. Personally, I'd say his Blaster is much more situational compared to Autoreticle which at least shoots three times, the bolts travels fast, and they all do knockback. Falco's Blaster doesn't have that. If the lasers traveled faster, had more range, had a faster rate of fire, or the end lag was much shorter, then his Blaster would be much, much better while not being broken like in Brawl were it traveled fast, had a fast rate of fire, and it traveled far. Brawl Falco's lasers travel the entire length of FD, right? So, bias or not, I feel like the redesign of Falco's Blaster was taken way too far. Fox's is still usable, Mario's Fireballs are usable, and Diddy's Peanut Popgun is usable, and then you have Sheik's Needles and Luigi's Fireball. Should I mention how Luigi's Fireballs travel faster and do more damage while having good range?

Everything else about Falco is just fine even his poor air speed which makes no sense since he's a bird, but from a balancing perspective, could you imagine what Falco with say, Fox or Mega Man's air speed would be like? Hell, let's give him Mario's air speed. Falco would be broken because we would swoop in and murder you and swoop out while you're wondering what the hell just happened. It's just having nothing to force an approach or approach well that kills his game. Ganondorf can't approach well, but at least he can tank hits and hits like a tank. Falco hits more like a truck, but takes hits like a Corvette. Better than taking hits like an old Honda, but he's still fragile while being placed under this punisher game plan.

I also feel like Dair being slower was a change that needed to happen. Either be slower or be weaker since it was kind of ridiculous to have a fast and powerful meteor. Now it's essentially Captain Falcon's Nipple Spike and Ganondorf's Stomp - all three share the same hit frame of 16 -, but without the Capt.'s speed to follow up quickly or Ganondorf's raw power.

i feel like if ganon had falcos lazer ganon would be one hella character tbh.

 

[Ffamran]

i feel like if ganon had falcos lazer ganon would be one hella character tbh.

Ganondorf with Autoreticle would be a hell of a character. Or, give Ganondorf Pichu's Thunder Jolt where it would hurt him every time he used it and he would have to say, "Pichu" or "Ganondorf", and Ganondorf would be better. Heck, give him Sonic's Homing Attack, make Ganondorf a projectile - we'll call it a Ganonball - and Ganondorf would be a even more dangerous. Seriously, if you saw a man of his stature, hurtling through the air like that, you would crap your pants.

To make it worse, Rosalina has a custom that everyone keeps saying is a Falco laser, but better. Isn't Fox's Falco Blaster custom considered better than Falco's? It's a sad day when your projectile is the butt of jokes and it doesn't even have a butt - rifles have a butt, the end of the stock, while handguns generally don't unless you attach a stock.

 

[wedl!!]

i feel like if ganon had falcos lazer ganon would be one hella character tbh.

to be fair if several other characters had falco lasers they'd be better off ( come to mind)

 

[Funkermonster]

Ok, so I know we aren't supposed to be making pre-mature tier lists in any capacity, and I understand that our full MU knowledge is still hazy, but based on all of the discussion we've been doing, I've made a basic "ranking" list of sort based on who everyone believes to be the biggest threats, the most disadvantaged, the best MU scores, etc.

This is NOT my personal list. I'm using everyone's input to piece this list together, so anyone can feel free to correct anything on the list. I'll also make note that it has been some months since the game came out, we have some tournament results to show for, and we have over 400 pages of discussion, so I don't think its too soon to make a basic list like this. Again, no one needs to attack me for this, because I'm basing this on our discussion.

I put 7 characters per tier for simplicity's sake. Obviously an official list would not be divided this way. This is also WITHOUT customs. The reason I made this list is because, with customs now confirmed, I agree that we need some kind of basic, non-custom tier list just as a reference. This list is by no means perfect, just something I built from observing the discussion. The middle section is the most hazy. I took that from comments made by mains and tournament performances that I've witnessed, as well as just basic strength/weakness discussion.

Please don't flag this list, I just made it to summarize many ideas we've had and to get input on what is off about it. Again, this is not MY tier list, so to speak.

Top:

High:

High-Mid:

Mid:

Low-Mid:

Low:

Bottom:


Does this look at least basically accurate? If anyone sees anything critically wrong (like someone being way too high or low) let me know and I'll change it. Just trying to get a better idea as to how our meta is developing.

So if that's based on from everyone's input, seems pretty legit for the most part. I do not recall anyone ever saying is bottom tier though, and people I've met seem to think better of and than that (though probably not much higher).

 

[wedl!!]

So if that's based on from everyone's input, seems pretty legit for the most part. I do not recall anyone ever saying is bottom tier though, and people I've met seem to think better of and than that (though probably not much higher).

no one says dk is bottom except for eventhubs (for some reason)

robin and rob are similar except rob is way better but not as good a waifu (pink robin doe )

 

[Ultinarok]

So if that's based on from everyone's input, seems pretty legit for the most part. I do not recall anyone ever saying is bottom tier though, and people I've met seem to think better of and than that (though probably not much higher).

Literally only thing that dropped him was just that I've broken it up into 7-character sections and he got booted out by Bowser and Zard's slight superiority as a whole. Basically, if he didn't have huge dead zones on so many moves, he'd be much higher. Bottom also does not mean unviable, its just the characters that seem to have a harder time. I agree though that DK could be higher, I just haven't seen many people defend him being more viable than those above him in low tier. I considered Doc but he has some great tools and is only really hampered by mobility and recovery. Idk its hard to say. I'm considering just putting him up a tier and leaving bottom at only 5. I may even merge the two tiers like some have suggested.

Robin suffers from having low mobility and having trouble zoning a lot of characters who can close the distance quickly. Having to conserve tomes and swords also keeps him from playing too defensively or spamming. R.O.B. only really suffers from being very combo prone and having a short grab, along with some other small weaknesses. I'm debating at least moving R.O.B. up a bit, maybe towards the higher end of his tier.

 

[HeroMystic]

Falco, much like Doc, is a character that has been redesigned so much that it's going to take some time to find a strong style with him. As one of my secondaries I feel there are some things going for him. However, much like Doc, he has glaring weaknesses.

It'd be completely wrong to say Falco has no weaknesses. He's viable in tournament, but he is damaged by his lack of horizontal mobility (though his vertical mobility is one of the best), while at the same time having too precise hitboxes (Up-Smash doesn't completely connect 100% of the time, and neither does U-air which his best kill move). Falco's lasers were also the biggest reason why he was ranked highly in Brawl and Melee, and now that his lasers were neutered to the point of being one of the worst projectiles in the game, he has very little going for him in mid-ranged and long-ranged neutral, which means he has to be up close.

That is where his horizontal mobility becomes a glaring issue. How does Falco force approaches? How does he bait without taking risks? Admittedly once he's in range his CQC and grabs are very strong, but it's not like Luigi where his reward is leaps and bounds awesome, it is simply "pretty good" and that's about it.

That said, I disagree with him being bottom 5 or even bottom 10. His kill moves are good, he's great at juggling, and his CQC coupled with his reflector makes him a pretty good fundamentalist character.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco, much like Doc, is a character that has been redesigned so much that it's going to take some time to find a strong style with him. As one of my secondaries I feel there are some things going for him. However, much like Doc, he has glaring weaknesses.

It'd be completely wrong to say Falco has no weaknesses. He's viable in tournament, but he is damaged by his lack of horizontal mobility (though his vertical mobility is one of the best), while at the same time having too precise hitboxes (Up-Smash doesn't completely connect 100% of the time, and neither does U-air which his best kill move). Falco's lasers were also the biggest reason why he was ranked highly in Brawl and Melee, and now that his lasers were neutered to the point of being one of the worst projectiles in the game, he has very little going for him in mid-ranged and long-ranged neutral, which means he has to be up close.

That is where his horizontal mobility becomes a glaring issue. How does Falco force approaches? How does he bait without taking risks? Admittedly once he's in range his CQC and grabs are very strong, but it's not like Luigi where his reward is leaps and bounds awesome, it is simply "pretty good" and that's about it.

That said, I disagree with him being bottom 5 or even bottom 10. His kill moves are good, he's great at juggling, and his CQC coupled with his reflector makes him a pretty good fundamentalist character.

Actually, I would say that Falco didn't change much at all. From Melee to Brawl? Yeah, he gained a new Jab combo, Fair, Nair, Utilt, Side Smash, a modified Reflector, Blaster was changed into a godplayer projectile, Fire Bird gained distance if I remember right and a hitbox during the charge up, and well, a new look, voice actor, and taunts. From Brawl to SSB4, he for whatever reason, gained Wolf's Bair and thus, lost a front hitbox, Side Smash gained start up, Up Smash basically became Wolf's in function, but can whiff more easily and the first hit can launch too far and make the second hit whiff, Falco Phantasm lost part of its hitbox for some reason, and his Blaster was severely modified/nerfed. Melee Falco's Blaster would arguably be better and more balanced than SSB4's. That one change alone crippled Falco. The rest of the changes affected everyone: removal DACUS, chaingrabbing, ledge hogging, etc.

Now, let's look at Marth. Numerically he was changed and went from being a beast Hero King to just a Hero King. Removing tippers alone made the "beginner's version of Marth", Lucina, into a hardcore, masochists welcome version of Marth with just enough less range to screw over her. One change for both of them. As a whole, it was just one change: numbers and tipper removal.

Look at Ganondorf's one change: the engine. Slight tweaks were there, but how the game functions such as the removal of ledge hogging, chaingrabs, addition of rage, etc. allows Ganondorf to have a much, much easier time than in Brawl.

Then we look at Zelda who now has a Side and Up Smash where people fall out, a different Down Special that frankly doesn't do much to help her, Din's Fire apparently got worse, and the end lag added to her lightning kicks? Yeah, talk about overkill. Has she been progressively getting worse and worse throughout the series?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So i decided to play some zelda.

its different. like i played with her before and even learned some basic stuff like reatreating air dins and junk.

But what is so weird with her is that she is neutral like all the time. her advantage and disadvantage are like non exsistant. her matches are all just rounded out to weird chess games. Not that thats all bad. hell it could even work in her favor a bit with a few tweaks to her character.

-hold phantom charge
-no free fall dins fire.

ect ect

 

[Thinkaman]

If you could store charge Phantom Slash, all of the animation timings of the move would have to be completely redone. The current move would be legitimately broken with the current frame-1 release timing.

The existing move could be made rather good if Zelda could just dodge/shield-cancel it, like Deep Breathing. It would also be nice if she could reverse it upon release, like Pac-Man fruit.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

If you could store charge Phantom Slash, all of the animation timings of the move would have to be completely redone. The current move would be legitimately broken with the current frame-1 release timing.

The existing move could be made rather good if Zelda could just dodge/shield-cancel it, like Deep Breathing. It would also be nice if she could reverse it upon release, like Pac-Man fruit.

see i agree and dissagree at the same time. like i see your point on it becoming a broken move but would it make zelda broken?

like would it change the fact that she still has low mobility laggy air attacks and all that jazz? considering her character arch type if may be just the type of move she needs.

 

[mimgrim]

Jigglypuff is slept on soooooooooo much.

 

[HeroMystic]

Actually, I would say that Falco didn't change much at all. From Melee to Brawl? Yeah, he gained a new Jab combo, Fair, Nair, Utilt, Side Smash, a modified Reflector, Blaster was changed into a godplayer projectile, Fire Bird gained distance if I remember right and a hitbox during the charge up, and well, a new look, voice actor, and taunts. From Brawl to SSB4, he for whatever reason, gained Wolf's Bair and thus, lost a front hitbox, Side Smash gained start up, Up Smash basically became Wolf's in function, but can whiff more easily and the first hit can launch too far and make the second hit whiff, Falco Phantasm lost part of its hitbox for some reason, and his Blaster was severely modified/nerfed. Melee Falco's Blaster would arguably be better and more balanced than SSB4's. That one change alone crippled Falco. The rest of the changes affected everyone: removal DACUS, chaingrabbing, ledge hogging, etc.

But on the other hand, Falco has a legitimately strong Jab (probably one of the best jabs in the game), a stronger U-air, a better F-air for edgeguard kills, and his grabs are no longer regulated to just being D-throw since B-throw kills and U-throw sets up for a U-air kill (F-Throw is the odd man out but it's pretty freaken cool aesthetically). We also cannot forget his second biggest change which is Falco no longer goes into freefall with Phantasm giving him a much better recovery overall.

Though I do agree: Falco's blaster nerf is the biggest of all his changes, and is crippling. However, it's only crippling if you look at it in comparison to Falco in Brawl. Falco's frame data coupled with the engine changes makes me understand where they were trying to go with Falco's design when you examine the whole package. It's just his hitboxes on some of his moves are janky and there isn't enough to compensate for his lack of a god-tier projectile.

 

[Teshie U]

see i agree and dissagree at the same time. like i see your point on it becoming a brocken move but would it make zelda brocken?

like would it change the fact that she still has low mobility laggy air attacks and all that jazz? considering her character arch type if may be just the type of move she needs.

You should never aim to balance a bad character by giving them something broken.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Jigglypuff is slept on soooooooooo much.

That's what you get for using Sing.

 

[Vincent21]

Ok, so I know we aren't supposed to be making pre-mature tier lists in any capacity, and I understand that our full MU knowledge is still hazy, but based on all of the discussion we've been doing, I've made a basic "ranking" list of sort based on who everyone believes to be the biggest threats, the most disadvantaged, the best MU scores, etc.

This is NOT my personal list. I'm using everyone's input to piece this list together, so anyone can feel free to correct anything on the list. I'll also make note that it has been some months since the game came out, we have some tournament results to show for, and we have over 400 pages of discussion, so I don't think its too soon to make a basic list like this. Again, no one needs to attack me for this, because I'm basing this on our discussion.

I put 7 or so characters per tier for simplicity's sake. Obviously an official list would not be divided this way. This is also WITHOUT customs. The reason I made this list is because, with customs now confirmed, I agree that we need some kind of basic, non-custom tier list just as a reference. This list is by no means perfect, just something I built from observing the discussion. The middle section is the most hazy. I took that from comments made by mains and tournament performances that I've witnessed, as well as just basic strength/weakness discussion.

Please don't flag this list, I just made it to summarize many ideas we've had and to get input on what is off about it. Again, this is not MY tier list, so to speak.

Top:

High:

High-Mid:

Mid:

Low-Mid:

Low:

Bottom:


Does this look at least basically accurate? If anyone sees anything critically wrong (like someone being way too high or low) let me know and I'll change it. Just trying to get a better idea as to how our meta is developing.

I'm actually kind of feeling this. I don't know why Falco is that low, though.

Like this character is probably one of the most misunderstood in the game, and I main Little Mac so that impresses me. Like Falco's mobility is unconventional, but considering the sheer distance he gets on foxtrotting (didn't Shaya cover this iirc? did no one actually take it to the lab and give it a shot if they felt the need to study the character?) he actually has strong repositioning and even a robust set of offensive options while approaching, has a great set of moves, combos effectively and even has tools for incentivizing approach to compensate what little he does lose over his move-speed. This is actually, like Dark Peach (who I did see on stream that was siiick) another character who got nice exposure on Shofu's last stream. That's honestly just a good place to turn people because it's several hours of both of these underrepresented characters and it's easy reach. WATCH IT :v

As for Little Mac I'm just going to refer back to the Espy footage and point something out in the game against Diddy.

Espy... despite his amazing, edge-of-my-seat comeback, made A LOT of mistakes. A lot of easy, you-don't-need-to-make-these-mistakes kind of mistakes. He almost never just threw jabs when he needed to. Literally just holding A on a lot of the blatant ground approaches made toward him instead of throwing preemptive ftilts that he wasn't even properly spacing with would have taken him a LONG way toward an easier game, and probably could've even given him an ending with a stock lead considering the comeback he was able to make regardless.

But he won anyway. Look at, even on a frankly non-ideal stage, how much of a margin of error Little Mac had against Diddy, the literal top of tier. We got people in here arguing how their main isn't bottom tier like "well yo don't cross me okay I've got this almost even match-up against an A- tier, ya know..."

Little Mac arguably beats Rosalina, has a reasonable Diddy match-up that was visible even in sloppy play (dare I say even or beyond, like dude Espy gave up a free stock and this is the only high tier character I consistently don't get stuffed by/work hard personally), and has a smaller disadvantage against Shiek and Yoshi than most of the cast, and he still struggles for even half the recognition of characters on this list no one even plays because "boo hoo Duck Hunt and platforms, oh my bleeding heart"

It just honestly isn't that bad, and neither is he.

Lucario is booty.
Usable booty, but bootycheeks anyways.
Does anyone really have a disadvantageous MU against him? I mean this in the most "Lucario is not what he was hyped to be" sort of way I could possibly mean... without trying to call him unusable...

Until proven otherwise I wield the same conviction I can't think of anyone who's afraid of anything sans Aura+Rage that this character has to bring to the table, and even that just brings him to par. Like every time I play against this character it basically plays out as "walk all over him until brookylnrage.exe kicks in, then the game begins" but by then he's already at disadvantage sooo.... good luck with that.

I think Pac-Man and R.O.B are a bit too low in that list, you could swap one of them with Little Mac I guess, I think the fact that Mac depends more on the stage than most other characters makes him a bit lower.

I don't see enough ROB, so I never challenge low positions for him. Can we hear about any of MUs? I can't think of that many good ones, but then again I'm not qualified to do that thinking in the first place. I dropped him after Brawl, and even then I played a limited amount of him (not a main).

 

[Quickhero]

Jigglypuff is slept on soooooooooo much.

Who is the one really sleeping though?

Spoiler

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You should never aim to balance a bad character by giving them something broken.

sucks that they give all da broken moves to the characters with good stats already.