Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

Edit: Yoshi's down B is not really a deterrent. Projectile uair or disjointed usmash will beat it. Otherwise, I agree at the moment (but will probably flip flop to even later. I really can't make up my mind on it)

Does it lose to Megaman USmash? It beats Ness USmash clean, even if it hits the yoyo it just goes right through and hits Ness every time. This might have to do with the Yoyo being considered a projectile though. I don't actually use aerial DownB much vs Megaman (grounded downB is still a good punish option on spotdodge or if Mega whiffs something really laggy), it's just the threat of that move keeps people from chasing you too aggressively because if you trade with it above the stage it can kill stupid early.

I do end up taking a fair amount of uairs as Yoshi in this matchup as I almost always recover high (as you stated, recovering low is footstool / bair bait), but for some reason they don't seem to deal much knockback to Yoshi. Megaman Uair has weird properties, maybe his air mobility somehow reduces how much it carries him? I don't pretend to understand it, but it doesn't seem to kill until very high percents, certainly much lower than what Yoshi's Uair kills at.

 

[Ultinarok]

Does it lose to Megaman USmash? It beats Ness USmash clean, even if it hits the yoyo it just goes right through and hits Ness every time. This might have to do with the Yoyo being considered a projectile though. I don't actually use aerial DownB much vs Megaman (grounded downB is still a good punish option on spotdodge or if Mega whiffs something really laggy), it's just the threat of that move keeps people from chasing you too aggressively because if you trade with it above the stage it can kill stupid early.

I do end up taking a fair amount of uairs as Yoshi in this matchup as I almost always recover high (as you stated, recovering low is footstool / bair bait), but for some reason they don't seem to deal much knockback to Yoshi. Megaman Uair has weird properties, maybe his air mobility somehow reduces how much it carries him? I don't pretend to understand it, but it doesn't seem to kill until very high percents, certainly much lower than what Yoshi's Uair kills at.

Weight and gravity determine Mega Man's up-air I believe. So Yoshi is probably among the least effected characters in the game by uair.

 

[san.]

If Samus' moves were transcendent, just how much better would she be? Seriously, her priority is the thing I see cited as by far her biggest weakness. Do you think being transcendent on at least her aerials would make the match-up more even or is she still doomed? I can't believe everyone slept so hard on Mega Man simply because he was awkward and takes practice. People used to say he was garbage...I guess Zucco showed them.

Transcendence is pretty useless for aerials. Samus would want transcendency on projectiles or ground normals.

 

[Locke 06]

Mega man's usmash is transcendent in addition to being disjointed. It beats it clean.

The uair is weird. It kills at weird times, but I can usually rely on it killing around 120% from a double jump. We don't fully understand it either. If you get hit near the top, you don't go into tumble meaning you can just move out of it and take minimal damage.

 

[Ultinarok]

Transcendence is pretty useless for aerials. Samus would want transcendency on projectiles or ground normals.

Yeah, that's probably more favorable over aerials, for her at least, because her aerials have decent damage and knockback properties at least. Transcendent charge shot would be so ridiculous, but transcendent tilts and missiles would be great.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Try this match on for size.
And another.

Sweet stuff, but still far from what should be possible I think

 

[Terotrous]

Mega man's usmash is transcendent in addition to being disjointed. It beats it clean.

Okay, I'll make a note not to try it. I wouldn't really go for obvious downBs on Megaman anyway thanks to Utilt, if he times it right and avoids the stars you're getting hit super hard. Much safer to just drift down and challenge with Nair or whatever.

You really don't want to go for big bets vs Megaman thanks to that Utilt. Better to just go for fairly safe options (Dash attack cross ups, Nair, Eggs, Jabs) until you can sneak in a uair.

The uair is weird. It kills at weird times, but I can usually rely on it killing around 120% from a double jump. We don't fully understand it either. If you get hit near the top, you don't go into tumble meaning you can just move out of it and take minimal damage.

This is what I've noticed, too, and that's where the downB comes in handy. If you're way below me shooting uairs, whatevs, it's never going to kill. If you want the kill you're going to have to come up here with Rush Coil, but are you confident that I'm not going to downB on reaction to the Rush Coil? Most Megamans I've fought just go for the safer option of staying low and trying to build a little damage, which lets me survive a long time as long as I scope out his smash attacks and Utilt.


In general, I feel like Yoshi is probably +1 vs anyone who doesn't have braindead kill options, simply because he builds damage well, lives a long time, and punishes bad guesses really hard. Unfortunately, almost all of the top characters do have braindead kill options, which keeps him from being at the tippy top of the tierlist.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sweet stuff, but still far from what should be possible I think

I wouldn't expect anything jaw-dropping from any customs this early on. But it's a taste.

 

[Ultinarok]

Okay, I'll make a note not to try it. I wouldn't really go for obvious downBs on Megaman anyway thanks to Utilt, if he times it right and avoids the stars you're getting hit super hard. Much safer to just drift down and challenge with Nair or whatever.

You really don't want to go for big bets vs Megaman thanks to that Utilt. Better to just go for fairly safe options (Dash attack cross ups, Nair, Eggs, Jabs) until you can sneak in a uair.



This is what I've noticed, too, and that's where the downB comes in handy. If you're way below me shooting uairs, whatevs, it's never going to kill. If you want the kill you're going to have to come up here with Rush Coil, but are you confident that I'm not going to downB on reaction to the Rush Coil? Most Megamans I've fought just go for the safer option of staying low and trying to build a little damage, which lets me survive a long time as long as I scope out his smash attacks and Utilt.


In general, I feel like Yoshi is probably +1 vs anyone who doesn't have braindead kill options, simply because he builds damage well, lives a long time, and punishes bad guesses really hard. Unfortunately, almost all of the top characters do have braindead kill options, which keeps him from being at the tippy top of the tierlist.

Yoshi's kill options are so much more satisfying than Diddy's, so we'll always have that. Yoshi's fair is the best fair in the game. I don't care what anyone says. It makes up like 50% of all of my Yoshi KO's. And Egg Lay edge traps are so delicious. Plus, uair is insane. Yoshi is incredible, just as I've always wanted him to be. I don't do tier bandwagons. I liked Diddy before he was god and Yoshi when he was mediocre or just simply poor. And my dedication has been rewarded in this game. I'm loving it.

Anyone who doesn't put Yoshi in top 10 knows nothing of what he can do. He's likely even top 5, as the only characters I can see edging him out are Diddy, Sheik and maybe Rosa and Pika. Putting him at least at number 5.

 

[Locke 06]

Okay, I'll make a note not to try it. I wouldn't really go for obvious downBs on Megaman anyway thanks to Utilt, if he times it right and avoids the stars you're getting hit super hard. Much safer to just drift down and challenge with Nair or whatever.

You really don't want to go for big bets vs Megaman thanks to that Utilt. Better to just go for fairly safe options (Dash attack cross ups, Nair, Eggs, Jabs) until you can sneak in a uair.



This is what I've noticed, too, and that's where the downB comes in handy. If you're way below me shooting uairs, whatevs, it's never going to kill. If you want the kill you're going to have to come up here with Rush Coil, but are you confident that I'm not going to downB on reaction to the Rush Coil? Most Megamans I've fought just go for the safer option of staying low and trying to build a little damage, which lets me survive a long time as long as I scope out his smash attacks and Utilt.


In general, I feel like Yoshi is probably +1 vs anyone who doesn't have braindead kill options, simply because he builds damage well, lives a long time, and punishes bad guesses really hard. Unfortunately, almost all of the top characters do have braindead kill options, which keeps him from being at the tippy top of the tierlist.

I find using Rush Coil offensively to be a little weird since you can't act until near the peak of your jump. Could be a personal thing that I just don't utilize enough, though. UAir autocancels off of full hop, so I can see throwing one up at that height to see if I can get the windbox to kill (around 150% sometimes), but double jump UAir and chasing Yoshi up there isn't really a great option since he's so fast. Trapping landings with fsmash or usmash/shield grab/whatever or returning to neutral is generally advised, like you said.

 

[Terotrous]

Incidentally, it just occurred to me that having a move that sends your opponent in the opposite direction from the direction of the attack is a strong trait. For example, Yoshi's down B travels down, but sends opponents up. If it knocked them down instead, it would not be nearly as good. When you're below the opponent (yet above the stage), the main thing you're worried about from them is a downwards attack, but if that sends you back down to the stage, whatever, you'll live. It's worth taking that risk for the chance of a uair kill. But to be sent upwards? That's not a situation you would expect from most characters and thus it can be quite dangerous.

There are a number of other such moves that send on unconventional angles, like DTilts that send you up, Ftilts that send you back, and Uairs that pull you down, and almost all of them are scary combo moves.

This is also why a back throw with a lot of power is so dangerous. Even if you corner Ness, you still have to respect him since his Backthrow becomes extra deadly when his back is to the wall. You don't normally expect to be sent behind a character when approaching them from the front, but a strong backthrow can do just that.

 

[Nu~]

Incidentally, it just occurred to me that having a move that sends your opponent in the opposite direction from the direction of the attack is a strong trait. For example, Yoshi's down B travels down, but sends opponents up. If it knocked them down instead, it would not be nearly as good. When you're below the opponent (yet above the stage), the main thing you're worried about from them is a downwards attack, but if that sends you back down to the stage, whatever, you'll live. It's worth taking that risk for the chance of a uair kill. But to be sent upwards? That's not a situation you would expect from most characters and thus it can be quite dangerous.

There are a number of other such moves that send on unconventional angles, like DTilts that send you up, Ftilts that send you back, and Uairs that pull you down, and almost all of them are scary combo moves.

This is also why a back throw with a lot of power is so dangerous. Even if you corner Ness, you still have to respect him since his Backthrow becomes extra deadly when his back is to the wall. You don't normally expect to be sent behind a character when approaching them from the front, but a strong backthrow can do just that.

Same with projectiles that bring the opponent towards you.

It's what gives custom pac-man and greninja excellent kill set ups.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja already has a lot of good kill setups, give him Shifting Shuriken and that number pretty much doubles.

Shifting Shuriken and Exploding Attack make Greninja a combo and edgeguarding god (probably hyperbole but -shrug-). Though unfortunately none of his customs really help him with his flaws, they just help him capitalize on his strengths more, which is still good, mind you.

 

[Terotrous]

Same with projectiles that bring the opponent towards you.

It's what gives custom pac-man and greninja excellent kill set ups.

Yeah, exactly! Lucario's Snaring Aura Sphere is also one of these and also makes him a lot better.

Yoshi is incredible, just as I've always wanted him to be. I don't do tier bandwagons. I liked Diddy before he was god and Yoshi when he was mediocre or just simply poor. And my dedication has been rewarded in this game. I'm loving it.

I'll fully admit to being a Yoshi bandwagoner. I pretty much never played him in Melee / Brawl / PM, but since Ivysaur got the boot I had to look for a new character and somehow Yoshi just clicked this time. In some sense he's slightly similar, he's a mixture of a zoner and a rushdown character, but Ivysaur is much less about keeping people out and more about applying pressure and then capitalizing off it (or at least she was before they wrecked her in PM 3.5). I did play Yoshi a fair bit in Smash64 and I've found I can now play him decently in PM, but he's a very different character in both games. Smash4 is the game where he finally feels good.

Yoshi's kill options are so much more satisfying than Diddy's, so we'll always have that. Yoshi's fair is the best fair in the game. I don't care what anyone says. It makes up like 50% of all of my Yoshi KO's. And Egg Lay edge traps are so delicious. Plus, uair is insane.

For me, about 50% of my kills come from grounded downB, usually after frustrating my opponents into doing something obvious which I then spotdodge and punish, with the rest usually coming from Nair edgeguards, Uairs, or USmash trades. I'm trying to incorporate more Fair because it is a really good poke, but I have trouble getting my brain around the concept of using it onstage because in past smash games moves like that have always been so unsafe on shield.

Anyone who doesn't put Yoshi in top 10 knows nothing of what he can do. He's likely even top 5, as the only characters I can see edging him out are Diddy, Sheik and maybe Rosa and Pika. Putting him at least at number 5.

The way I think of Yoshi is that he is the king of solid characters. Nothing about him is really dumb in the way that hoo haw is dumb or Quick Attack is dumb, but he has super solid fundamentals and a ton of versatility. I honestly don't think Yoshi has any real weaknesses (and no, I don't really consider his recovery to be a weakness, the armored double jump makes up for the lack of a traditional upB), there are just some characters who are a bit better than he is. I would likely not place him in top 5 but I think he's towards the lower end up top 10.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'll bite. Under what theory does Mega Man beat Sonic? We don't have any strong Mega Man players local to me, but Sonic is impossible to zone and has the movement to punish Mega Man for doing stuff that's not frame-safe better than any other character. Mega Man's recovery is not very flexible no matter which custom he brings, and Sonic has one of the best off-stage games. Mega Man lacks any sort of "get off me" aerial, and Sonic can exploit this heavily with his strong juggle chases. Mega Man has many good moves and is built like a tank; I don't really doubt that he's a decent character. I'm just not understanding the reasoning that suggests he beats Sonic.

 

[HeroMystic]

If Samus' moves were transcendent, just how much better would she be? Seriously, her priority is the thing I see cited as by far her biggest weakness. Do you think being transcendent on at least her aerials would make the match-up more even or is she still doomed? I can't believe everyone slept so hard on Mega Man simply because he was awkward and takes practice. People used to say he was garbage...I guess Zucco showed them.

Transcendence on her projectiles, especially missiles, would make her MUs in general a lot more bearable, especially against characters like Ness, Mario, and Luigi because their projectiles cancel out everything (Ness' PK fire beats a full charged shot. The Mario Bros' fireballs beat half-charged shots). For Megaman in particular, transcendence would make Mid-ranged neutral more even (Megaman would actually have to dodge or shield) and she would automatically win long-ranged neutral, and it opens up opportunities for Samus to do other things against him. It would probably swing to Samus' favor if this was the case.

What would actually be much more reasonable though is a faster rate of fire or higher damage on super missiles. Right now, Samus can only have one super missile out on the map at a time (because sakuraibalance), and this makes zoning much more difficult than it should be, combined with Z-air now having landing lag. A faster missile fire rate would actually make our zoning feared and open up opportunities to combo.

Higher damage on Super Missiles would just mean they're not stupidly cancelled out by everything.

 

[Nobie]

I'll bite. Under what theory does Mega Man beat Sonic? We don't have any strong Mega Man players local to me, but Sonic is impossible to zone and has the movement to punish Mega Man for doing stuff that's not frame-safe better than any other character. Mega Man's recovery is not very flexible no matter which custom he brings, and Sonic has one of the best off-stage games. Mega Man lacks any sort of "get off me" aerial, and Sonic can exploit this heavily with his strong juggle chases. Mega Man has many good moves and is built like a tank; I don't really doubt that he's a decent character. I'm just not understanding the reasoning that suggests he beats Sonic.

While I don't know if Mega Man outright beats Sonic, the key skill that Mega Man has in the matchup is that his pellet game prevents Sonic from being a frustrating opponent. It's not like pellets just beat Sonic, but the hedgehog, as others have put it, loves to ignore neutral, and he really can't do that against Mega Man. There's also the fact that Mega Man can also act out of his Up B (though he trades invincibility for being able to store his second jump) and fight Sonic on his own terms in that regard.

 

[Antonykun]

I feel like the characters that Mega Man has to worry about the most are generally the ones that can out-speed him in the air.

That would be:


A couple of them aren't so bad, namely DK and Sonic, but when you combine the ability to get past pellet walls with a few other tricks (Mario's cape, Yoshi's range, Jigglypuff's fantastic mobility), it often feels difficult for Mega Man to play his game properly. They're not necessarily terrible matchups for Mega Man (I'd say all except maybe Jigglypuff and ZSS are in the 4:6 to 6:4 range) but they can often feel that way.

Other than that, I suspect that are disadvantaged matchups for Mega Man.

Villager's ability to camp the ledge exacerbates Mega Man's issues with killing reliably, and while Samus is awkward up-close, Mega Man is even more awkward, and so it stops being much of a weakness for Samus. Meta Knight and Zelda share the property of being very strong in disadvantage, and make trying to land a follow-up KO against them legitimately dangerous due to the KO power of their teleporting Up B's.



I think Mega Man in disadvantage isn't quite as screwed as you make him out to be, though I guess it has less to do with him having amazing disadvantaged state options, and more the fact that he seems built to weather the storm. Between a heavy weight that makes him fairly difficult to KO and the fact that pellets are frame-2 (making them the fastest aerial in the game) he just needs that brief moment to stun the opponent and get things back to neutral.

MM trolls Villager. He's one of the four reasons why I'm learning to main Pika

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

While I don't know if Mega Man outright beats Sonic, the key skill that Mega Man has in the matchup is that his pellet game prevents Sonic from being a frustrating opponent. It's not like pellets just beat Sonic, but the hedgehog, as others have put it, loves to ignore neutral, and he really can't do that against Mega Man. There's also the fact that Mega Man can also act out of his Up B (though he trades invincibility for being able to store his second jump) and fight Sonic on his own terms in that regard.

If Mega Man over-relies on pellets, won't that leave him open to Hammer Spin Dash punishes? Even if Sonic picks default Spin Dash for some reason, is the hop not big enough to go over pellets? I'm not nearly as familiar with default Sonic so I could be wrong about that, but HSD seems likely to be a really solid response to pellets.

 

[David Viran]

Regarding pikas QA as a oos option. Can it really be that good because I wanted to get a sense of how long it took for QA to come out as it's not in the frame data. Zss's fsmash (frame 13) was beating it before it seemed like the hitbox came out, although that might the move flat out beating it. If that's the case then QA would be around frame 12. Maybe there's more to it though. Anybody like to explain why it's a amazing oos option.

@ NairWizard

 

[Locke 06]

If Mega Man over-relies on pellets, won't that leave him open to Hammer Spin Dash punishes? Even if Sonic picks default Spin Dash for some reason, is the hop not big enough to go over pellets? I'm not nearly as familiar with default Sonic so I could be wrong about that, but HSD seems likely to be a really solid response to pellets.

I'm not too familiar with HSD in the matchup, but I think it does go over pellets. Default spin dash does not, but the invincibility works. However, with good spacing, before either spindash hits Mega, Sonic gets hit with another pellet. The other tool that Mega has against spindash is disjointed mobile meaty dtilt, which avoids homing attack.

Sonic's juggles are good, but how Sonic kills Mega is a big issue. Mega avoids grabs really well by playing safe and f4 BAir works great to kill along with a stronger edge guarding game (IMO).

Sonic can't ignore neutral, and can't land easily (Dive kicks generally lose to uair due to their linearity), which take away some of his strongest points (Spring eject>DAir out of disadvantage isn't as good against Mega as it is against most characters.
Essentially, Sonic is a gold digger who thrives off of commitment, while Mega Man is the sly clam player who will never commit until the time is right.

Edit: MM's also talked about this MU and the Sonic boards and us are in agreement.

 

[NairWizard]

Megaman's pellets are custom-tailored to beat Sonics who rely too much on spindash, but that's the thing: a good Sonic doesn't rely on spindash to approach. Spindash is an option to punish landings or mistakes, and an option that you won't use a lot against Megaman. Sonic should be using his incredible ground speed and dash->shield to get into Megaman's general range. Sonic is like 9th on the airspeed rankings too, his up-air is great (and Megaman has trouble with someone directly below him), and he does tons of damage with his strings that Megaman can't easily get out of because of the way his n-air works.

Sonic vs. Megaman seems like at best a 50:50 (or slight advantage Sonic), but I can't see how Megaman actually wins the MU. Sonics who make Spindash seem like the only thing that he has probably give some of his MUs a skewed ratio in public perspective.

I used to think that Pikachu vs. Megaman was in Megaman's favor, but now I'm leaning the other way (even, probably slightly in Pikachu's favor), mostly because if Megaman whiffs a KO option (like up-tilt or f-smash if Pikachu sees it coming), which is likely given Pikachu's speed, then Pikachu can QA behind MM and up-smash on reaction. I really don't see how Megaman KOs in this MU without a b-air, and Pikachu is fast on the ground.

Pikachu and Sonic are both anti-zoners. If Megaman didn't have quite a few non-zoning tools, the MUs would be landslides in their favor. But he does have those tools, so it's closer to even.

Megaman is very good, but those who are fast enough to get past triple pellet barrages usually put in work against him.

 

[Nu~]

Essentially, Sonic is a gold digger who thrives off of commitment, while Mega Man is the sly clam player who will never commit until the time is right.

Slickest analogy of the year

 

[Nobie]

Megaman's pellets are custom-tailored to beat Sonics who rely too much on spindash, but that's the thing: a good Sonic doesn't rely on spindash to approach. Spindash is an option to punish landings or mistakes, and an option that you won't use a lot against Megaman. Sonic should be using his incredible ground speed and dash->shield to get into Megaman's general range. Sonic is like 9th on the airspeed rankings too, his up-air is great (and Megaman has trouble with someone directly below him), and he does tons of damage with his strings that Megaman can't easily get out of because of the way his n-air works.

Sonic vs. Megaman seems like at best a 50:50 (or slight advantage Sonic), but I can't see how Megaman actually wins the MU. Sonics who make Spindash seem like the only thing that he has probably give some of his MUs a skewed ratio in public perspective.

I used to think that Pikachu vs. Megaman was in Megaman's favor, but now I'm leaning the other way (even, probably slightly in Pikachu's favor), mostly because if Megaman whiffs a KO option (like up-tilt or f-smash if Pikachu sees it coming), which is likely given Pikachu's speed, then Pikachu can QA behind MM and up-smash on reaction. I really don't see how Megaman KOs in this MU without a b-air, and Pikachu is fast on the ground.

Pikachu and Sonic are both anti-zoners. If Megaman didn't have quite a few non-zoning tools, the MUs would be landslides in their favor. But he does have those tools, so it's closer to even.

Megaman is very good, but those who are fast enough to get past triple pellet barrages usually put in work against him.

The other big thing about pellets is that it doesn't just stymy attempts to get closer via special moves, but that Sonic's great ground speed is also made less effective by the presence of the pellets themselves and the fact that Mega Man can transition between standing, walking, and jumping while firing.

 

[Locke 06]

Megaman's pellets are custom-tailored to beat Sonics who rely too much on spindash, but that's the thing: a good Sonic doesn't rely on spindash to approach. Spindash is an option to punish landings or mistakes, and an option that you won't use a lot against Megaman. Sonic should be using his incredible ground speed and dash->shield to get into Megaman's general range. Sonic is like 9th on the airspeed rankings too, his up-air is great (and Megaman has trouble with someone directly below him), and he does tons of damage with his strings that Megaman can't easily get out of because of the way his n-air works.

Sonic vs. Megaman seems like at best a 50:50 (or slight advantage Sonic), but I can't see how Megaman actually wins the MU. Sonics who make Spindash seem like the only thing that he has probably give some of his MUs a skewed ratio in public perspective.

I used to think that Pikachu vs. Megaman was in Megaman's favor, but now I'm leaning the other way (even, probably slightly in Pikachu's favor), mostly because if Megaman whiffs a KO option (like up-tilt or f-smash if Pikachu sees it coming), which is likely given Pikachu's speed, then Pikachu can QA behind MM and up-smash on reaction. I really don't see how Megaman KOs in this MU without a b-air, and Pikachu is fast on the ground.

Pikachu and Sonic are both anti-zoners. If Megaman didn't have quite a few non-zoning tools, the MUs would be landslides in their favor. But he does have those tools, so it's closer to even.

Megaman is very good, but those who are fast enough to get past triple pellet barrages usually put in work against him.

Bthrow and edge guarding is usually how Mega Man kills when he wants to stay safe. Since his opponents need to approach, getting the grab is easier for him than it is for his opponent. The triple pellet barrage is only part of the wall, as mixing up 1-3 with his other zoning tools keeps the wall complex. Dash>Shield loses to Mega's fast dash grab by design due to the commitment of a dash. Walk>shield and being comfortable at the edge of pellet range is stronger to slowly push your advantage.

At the moment, I believe Mega beats Sonic and goes even with Pika. Pika has better kill setups and edge guarding.

It is tough for Mega to get the kill if the opponent plays safe. However, Mega Man can play safer than his opponents and punish harder. That's what alleviates his kill issue.


Edit: The difference between Sonic and Captain Falcon, who we can't zone nearly as well, is Sonic's weight allows for Metal Blade>Dash grab to work a lot, whereas Falcon can jab/roll/whatever after getting hit by a metal blade. Same with Pika.

 

[NairWizard]

The other big thing about pellets is that it doesn't just stymy attempts to get closer via special moves, but that Sonic's great ground speed is also made less effective by the presence of the pellets themselves and the fact that Mega Man can transition between standing, walking, and jumping while firing.

That's a glass is half-empty vs. glass is half-full scenario, though.

You could say that Sonic's great ground speed is made less effective because of Megaman's pellets, certainly.

But you can also say that Megaman's pellets are made less effective because of Sonic's great ground speed.

Clearly characters like Ganondorf are disadvantaged against Megaman because they are too slow to get in vs. pellets, and clearly having good ground speed is better than not having good ground speed. This is just trivially true.

 

[HFlash]

what's everyones impressions of c. falcon now that the meta has progressed? has he dropped from alot of peoples top 10?

I think he is roughly around 10-15. He has alot of bad MUs in this game and makes it kind of hard to hard main him imo.

 

[Nobie]

That's a glass is half-empty vs. glass is half-full scenario, though.

You could say that Sonic's great ground speed is made less effective because of Megaman's pellets, certainly.

But you can also say that Megaman's pellets are made less effective because of Sonic's great ground speed.

Clearly characters like Ganondorf are disadvantaged against Megaman because they are too slow to get in vs. pellets, and clearly having good ground speed is better than not having good ground speed. This is just trivially true.

My argument is less that Mega Man's pellets are this fantastic cure-all that render Sonic's game useless, and more that Mega Man is one of the few characters with a projectile quick and reliable enough that Sonic has to actually account for it. Essentially, much like your Mega Man vs. Ganondorf example, most characters who throw things can get overwhelmed by Sonic, but Mega Man's zoning game is good enough that Mega Man is still capable of playing his own game.

I think that's what I was getting at. A lot of characters have to play against Sonic very differently because of his mobility specs. Mega Man has to make fewer concessions.

 

[Timbers]

Bthrow and edge guarding is usually how Mega Man kills when he wants to stay safe. Since his opponents need to approach, getting the grab is easier for him than it is for his opponent. The triple pellet barrage is only part of the wall, as mixing up 1-3 with his other zoning tools keeps the wall complex. Dash>Shield loses to Mega's fast dash grab by design due to the commitment of a dash. Walk>shield and being comfortable at the edge of pellet range is stronger to slowly push your advantage.

At the moment, I believe Mega beats Sonic and goes even with Pika. Pika has better kill setups and edge guarding.

It is tough for Mega to get the kill if the opponent plays safe. However, Mega Man can play safer than his opponents and punish harder. That's what alleviates his kill issue.


Edit: The difference between Sonic and Captain Falcon, who we can't zone nearly as well, is Sonic's weight allows for Metal Blade>Dash grab to work a lot, whereas Falcon can jab/roll/whatever after getting hit by a metal blade. Same with Pika.

Not to deter this thread too much, but what are MM mains' take on the Fox MU? I have very very limited experience here, and wonder if MM can force the approach despite lasers/reflector.

Approaching MM as Fox sounds weird. I guess Fox nair eats pellets but having no range on any moves sounds like a cakewalk for MM's great grab range.

 

[Locke 06]

MM combo's Fox well with BAir/UAirs (which is the extent of Mega's combos...) while Fox does a lot of work with jab cancels & utilts. There's a big difference between Fox's who understand Fox in Smash 4 and Fox's who are just using melee/brawl stuff, which is why we haven't touched that matchup on the MM boards despite some requests (same with Pika, although I've just done my own personal theory stuff).

In terms of approach, Mega Man's "approach" is to get out of long range and into mid-range. Fox's approach is to get out of mid-range and into close-range. So they both need to "approach" in some way. Metal Blade and triple pellets will do 6% for unwise laser usage. But you are right, in that a lack of range, safe buttons on shield, and non-threatening throw followups hurt Fox's approach.

MM can also just duck lasers indefinitely, so if he wants, MM never needs to approach if he has the lead.

 

[warionumbah2]

Going with what's been discussed, i take it MK absolutely bum rushes MM.

Vertical combo's. Check
Ground Speed.Check
Get out of disadvantage state.Check
Kill setups.Check

 

[Locke 06]

Going with what's been discussed, i take it MK absolutely bum rushes MM.

Vertical combo's. Check
Ground Speed.Check
Get out of disadvantage state.Check
Kill setups.Check

Even before Ito's combo video that everyone splooshed over, I had MK as the anti-MM even though I have never played the MU. Now with the rise of MK again, I'm not excited to see what happens. I just hope the other characters keep MK down.

 

[warionumbah2]

I'm not excited to see what happens. I just hope the other characters keep MK down.

His name is META knight, nothing in the sm4sh meta game can stop him. Unless he gets Greninja'd in the next patch for no reason.

 

[Nu~]

His name is META knight, nothing in the sm4sh meta game can stop him. Unless he gets Greninja'd in the next patch for no reason.

Except sonic and pac-man

 

[Emblem Lord]

Random but all this talk about customs had me messing with Sheiks as people said they aren't good.

That Gravity Grenade...real ***** ****.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm sorry but Samus is boldly hard countered by Megaman.

@ Locke 06 amusingly sums it up quite well but I'll go in detail because I personally played this MU in tournament. Missiles are clanked by pellets. Uncharged Shots are clanked by pellets, F-tilt loses to pellets, Dash Attack loses to pellets, every single aerial Samus has loses to pellets. Megaman destroys Samus at mid-range so badly that this is not even a matter of player skill and mindgames. Megaman just has stay right outside of Samus' F-tilt, and Samus can't do a ****ing thing.

Add on the fact that all of Megaman's other projectiles cancels out Samus' projectiles, and Megaman has the easiest time B-airing Samus due to her large frame, and D-air giving Megaman a safe option that covers Samus' recovery and this MU is ****ed.

Samus' only option is to go Full-on For Glory Mode and camp like a madwoman, and hope Megaman is too scared to spam pellets while she has charged shot primed so you can actually do stuff.

But I'd go as far as to say this is an 80:20 Disadvantage for Samus. It's that bad.

Huh really? i was thought half charge beat all of mega's range options. oh well if others think otherwise must just be me i guess.

 

[Locke 06]

Huh really? i was thought half charge beat all of mega's range options. oh well if others think otherwise must just be me i guess.

Half charge does (anything over 13%). But even getting a half charge is tough. Also, half charge travels slower than full, and Mega can just jump or take it at low %'s and keep applying pressure.

 

[warionumbah2]

Except sonic and pac-man

Sonic isn't that bad so long as they don't take us to FD, still in his favor but i don't see it as 70:30 no more probably 60:40. Pac-man isn't that threatening but soon pac-man will be like MM to MK.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Half charge does (anything over 13%). But even getting a half charge is tough. Also, half charge travels slower than full, and Mega can just jump or take it at low %'s and keep applying pressure.

yeah i know its tough but all u need is one opening to charge it no? than u have ur mega man suddenly lessing pressure due to a nasty punish. witch then in advertly gives samus room to start a missle game.

 

[NairWizard]

Except sonic and pac-man

These feel like even MUs to me, even though the MK boards disagree. MK's punishes are no less harsh than Sonic's own, so as long as you're not making the fool's error of challenging spindash directly, you're good to go here. Spindash is about equivalent to MK's dash attack but spindash wins one on one. Dimensional Cape is a hero in this MU because Sonic loves to trap you in bad situations, and who's better than getting out of bad situations than Pikachu MK? It is a war of attrition, though, since neither characters wants to commit. It's kind of like a mirror match: MK trades in the speed of Sonic's spindash for a smaller hurtbox and 5 additional jumps, and Sonic's airspeed for better edgeguarding and ways to catch airdodges (Tornado, Shuttle Loop)--fine trades by me.

Dimensional Cape is disgusting vs. Pacman. If Pacman is hydranting your up-airs and Shuttle Loops, you can actually get a KO on him by using Dimensional Cape up to his location to bypass the Hydrant. When Pacman tries to get creative with fruit, you can DC out of the trap and even hit him for trying to trap you. You can DC over Trampoline and Hydrant shenanigans. Pacman has a super rough time getting the KO on MK because MK doesn't really care about his setups, which keeps the MU pretty even imo.

Regarding pikas QA as a oos option. Can it really be that good because I wanted to get a sense of how long it took for QA to come out as it's not in the frame data. Zss's fsmash (frame 13) was beating it before it seemed like the hitbox came out, although that might the move flat out beating it. If that's the case then QA would be around frame 12. Maybe there's more to it though. Anybody like to explain why it's a amazing oos option.

@ NairWizard

QA has startup frames, yes; I don't know how many, but it seems significant. I don't use it much as an OOS option or know about it much in that context (I don't use much shield in general as Pikachu; like almost 0). You'll have to ask @Tagxy about that.