Character Competitive Impressions

[Locke 06]

yeah i know its tough but all u need is one opening to charge it no? than u have ur mega man suddenly lessing pressure due to a nasty punish. witch then in advertly gives samus room to start a missle game.

Samus? Missile game? We're talking about Smash 4 Samus, right?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Samus? Missile game? We're talking about Smash 4 Samus, right?

not homing missle lol it just gives her room for some super missle pressure witch then lessens the load of pressure again on samus shoulders. and even can start a trap or give an opening.

But like said it only seems to be me who thinks this so im probably very much so wrong. we just got allot of experienced megamans in toronto so i might just know the mu enough to be succefull in it.

 

[Nu~]

Sonic isn't that bad so long as they don't take us to FD, still in his favor but i don't see it as 70:30 no more probably 60:40. Pac-man isn't that threatening but soon pac-man will be like MM to MK.

Pfft.
Freaky fruit gives us the kill confirms we needed.
On-fire hydrant is the ultimate approach disrupter and scares rush down.
And then you have meteor trampoline, that will keep you where your approach is most unsafe: the air. Or just bury you for a free Usmash. Try to DC past it, and you're eating a free fsmash.
We got meta in check
Even matchup at worst

Now our 40:60 matchup with rosa on the other hand...

 

[warionumbah2]

Pfft.
Freaky fruit gives us the kill confirms we needed.
On-fire hydrant is the ultimate approach disrupter and scares rush down.
And then you have meteor trampoline, that will keep you where your approach is most unsafe: the air. Or just bury you for a free Usmash.
We got meta in check

Now our 40:60 matchup with rosa on the other hand...

I got one move that ignores traps altogether

Dimensional Cape

Spoiler

 

[NairWizard]

Pet peeve (not directed at @ Nu~ , since your use was fine, but in a general context): can we stop calling any character who is even remotely fast "rushdown"? Meta Knight does not "rush down." Neither does Sheik, or Pikachu, or... basically anyone cited as "rushdown." The term is so egregiously wrong; these characters all have passive-aggressive playstyles that they can execute, while rushdown seems to imply approaching all the time--capitalizing on your openings is not the same as continuously forcing your way through.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pet peeve (not directed at @ Nu~ , since your use was fine, but in a general context): can we stop calling any character who is even remotely fast "rushdown"? Meta Knight does not "rush down." Neither does Sheik, or Pikachu, or... basically anyone cited as "rushdown." The term is so egregiously wrong; these characters all have passive-aggressive playstyles that they can execute, while rushdown seems to imply approaching all the time--capitalizing on your openings is not the same as continuously forcing your way through.

So mac is not rush down then right? *no sarcasim*

 

[Kofu]

Who do you think beats Mega Man, @ Locke 06 ? You've mentioned Yoshi and Wario to my knowledge, and I believe I've heard that Sheik beats him as well.

If anyone wants to know why Mega Man bests Villager, consider the fact that the only things really worth Pocketing are UAir, DAir, and FSmash, and no Mega Mains worth their salt will throw them out recklessly (Danger Wrap might be good with customs but not sure). Then Mega Man abuses his grab game and zoning abilities and beats the kid. Skull Barrier is just extra pain.

 

[HeroMystic]

not homing missle lol it just gives her room for some super missle pressure witch then lessens the load of pressure again on samus shoulders. and even can start a trap or give an opening.

But like said it only seems to be me who thinks this so im probably very much so wrong. we just got allot of experienced megamans in toronto so i might just know the mu enough to be succefull in it.

When Megaman can literally hold towards your direction and mash A to invalidate your missiles, I wouldn't really give much credit to Samus having a missile game.

Here's two things Samus has in the MM match-up: Charged Shot and Z-air.

Z-air has the unfortunate problem having landing lag and Megaman being short, but it out-ranges his pellets and better yet goes through them. (Half) Charged shot is Samus' crutch this whole match. Alternating between Z-air, Charged Shot, and Dash Attack/Dash-Grab to set up combos is her only way to keep Megaman away from his sweetspot range.

But once you lose stage control, Samus only has one chance to get it back through Charged Shot. If that fails it's game over.

 

[Nu~]

I got one move that ignores traps altogether

Dimensional Cape

Spoiler

Lol true. Visualizing the matchup more, we would have to be a lot more in your face. Our normal traps don't work on you, and your normal set ups can't capture us.

Hmm...Meta knight does beat rosa correct?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach talk and I have not been around for it eh? Well I touch touch up on her meta game since it was ask.
Peach is a hard character to use. Thats why she is under used or hardly see any solid ones. I even heard people quit her because of this and pick characters that are kinda easy mode. Because she is hard to use, does not mean she is a bad character. She takes a seriously amount of work. But when you put in all that work, you can do some sick stuff with her. I wason shofu stream last nite and showcased her to over 1000 people what she can really do when you put in that work and never give up. Fow even came in the mix later that nite and we were going at it. And you know he don't play no games. I come in around 4:36:00. And played for 3 and a half hours.
http://www.twitch.tv/shofu/b/628971980

When people saw me play, they said they wanna pick her up now.

On my youtube channel I have a playlist of Peach tutorial vids showing and explaining all the things she can do. You can check out the playlist here.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjWYofF6B__I4vuT25cxAxDeHZwrLOETW

I was invited to a smash session by Bum today. An old school DK player from melee who was a top player at his prime. He will be streaming so if you guys wanna check some Peach action live or talk to me, you can check it out happing soon here.
http://www.twitch.tv/bum1six3

I also stream just about everyday and give live Peach lessons or advice. So you can check me out on my channel at www.twitch.tv/DarkPch

Peach is the best, do not debate this

 

[warionumbah2]

Hmm...Meta knight does beat rosa correct?

His best MU against the high tiers. Her kill power gets lowered since Luma will always be dead, she's tall and light and MK loves that since it makes poking her shield that much easier when using Mach Tornado. Shuttle Loop being able to kill on FD around 90% after a DA of course is huge and due to her height and floatiness its pretty easy to frame trap her if she air dodges an uair.

As if DA wasn't safe already, now its rewarding as hell. If Rosa rolls,spot dodges or shields Luma will get hit. If MK is ever above her we can use DC to escape, only problem is that she completely out ranges MK and stop our approaches sometimes with jab especially when Luma's out.

Custom makes this even more of a cake walk since HSD comes out faster,travels faster and beats out her star bit shooter. Every time Luma dies its like 17secs of Mk going aggro, Luma is floaty when its falling off stage so that's like an extra 3 seconds.

 

[Nu~]

His best MU against the high tiers. Her kill power gets lowered since Luma will always be dead, she's tall and light and MK loves that since it makes poking her shield that much easier when using Mach Tornado. Shuttle Loop being able to kill on FD around 90% after a DA of course is huge and due to her height and floatiness its pretty easy to frame trap her if she air dodges an uair.

As if DA wasn't safe already, now its rewarding as hell. If Rosa rolls,spot dodges or shields Luma will get hit. If MK is ever above her we can use DC to escape, only problem is that she completely out ranges MK and stop our approaches sometimes with jab especially when Luma's out.

Custom makes this even more of a cake walk since HSD comes out faster,travels faster and beats out her star bit shooter. Every time Luma dies its like 17secs of Mk going aggro, Luma is floaty when its falling off stage so that's like an extra 3 seconds.

Wow.
Well let's see.
Meta Knight's worst matchups: Luigi, sonic
Pac-man beats Luigi, and goes even with sonic

Pac-Man's worst matchups: rosa, fox
Meta knight beats both.
...

...Meta knight and pac-man were made for each other.

At long last, my search for a 2nd main is complete.

 

[warionumbah2]

Nah Luigi ain't the worst he's pretty even both the MK boards and Luigi boards agreed with this as well.

Pac-man will only weigh him down man.

 

[Unknownkid]

This might just be lag and incorrect DI, but can't Kirby D-throw to Fair grab reset Ganondorf? I had it happen when I was playing as Ganondorf and I think as Falco and maybe ZSS, but I don't remember well since I was in rage yesterday dealing with a dude who could read everything I did just by shielding and rolling back and forth with Kirby, ZSS, and Fox. There's a point where I feel like the world is ******* on and laughing at me and that was yesterday's series of unfortunate matches. There is no reason a person can shield, spot dodge, air dodge, and roll past every move you make even if you feint them. The other Kirby grab reset happened a day or two ago and it was someone else. I think I won, but it was kind of surprising to see Kirby be able to grab reset Ganondorf.

I am surprised no one respond to this. But Kirby cannot grab reset with D-throw unless you are playing Brawl. I believe you mean F-throw into Fair (grab reset) and it works effectively on Heavy Characters.

 

[Ffamran]

I am surprised no one respond to this. But Kirby cannot grab reset with D-throw unless you are playing Brawl. I believe you mean F-throw into Fair (grab reset) and it works effectively on Heavy Characters.

Yeah, I don't know Kirby's throws aside from U-throw and now I remember that Kirby and Meta Knight share U-throw and D-throw - the stomping. Kirby's F-throw is the flip forward slam, right? If that's so, then yes, I meant F-throw to Fair.

 

[Nu~]

Nah Luigi ain't the worst he's pretty even both the MK boards and Luigi boards agreed with this as well.

Pac-man will only weigh him down man.

Just you wait. Mewtwo will be a meta knight counter, and pac-man will be his worst matchup

 

[FullMoon]

I've been meaning to start using Pac-Man, but I've been finding it pretty hard to get to the lab with him. I think I just find Greninja way too fun to play with to really click with other characters. I do find Pac-Man's tools pretty fun though, but I guess his gameplan doesn't click as well with me.

I think I might just end up maining Greninja and having no secondaries. The two closest to being secondaries to me are Mario and Pac-Man and I dunno if they have good synergy with Greninja.

 

[Nu~]

I've been meaning to start using Pac-Man, but I've been finding it pretty hard to get to the lab with him. I think I just find Greninja way too fun to play with to really click with other characters. I do find Pac-Man's tools pretty fun though, but I guess his gameplan doesn't click as well with me.

I think I might just end up maining Greninja and having no secondaries. The two closest to being secondaries to me are Mario and Pac-Man and I dunno if they have good synergy with Greninja.

Who does greninja struggle against?

 

[Conda]

Marth + Falco has been in the back of my mind lately as a low-tier dreamteam. Fundamentals all the way. We don't need tricks!

 

[FullMoon]

Who does greninja struggle against?

I'd say the only unfavorable MUs Greninja has are Sonic, Sheik and Fox, who are probably 60:40 in their favor (though I'm starting to have some doubts about Sonic) and probably a 55:45 against Meta Knight.

 

[Locke 06]

Who do you think beats Mega Man, @ Locke 06 ? You've mentioned Yoshi and Wario to my knowledge, and I believe I've heard that Sheik beats him as well.

From my personal matchup chart:

30-70 [1]: Meta Knight - mostly on theory, but I have a strong feeling he's our worst and potentially could be closer to 25-75.
35-65 [1]: Sheik
40-60 [1]: Marth
45-55 [4]: Yoshi, Wario, Pit, Falcon
47.5-52.5 [2]: Diddy, Dark Pit (arrows and electroshock are downgrades but not too significant), Lucina (loss of tipped BAir/Ftilt as killers hurts)

Some extra notes:
Sheik is often cited as our worst, but I don't think it's awful. It requires patient defense, because she can put a lot of safe pressure on Mega. It's almost a true offense vs defense game that I have come to really enjoy. That said, needle camping is... ugh. And her trump/offstage game is so so good.

Falcon plays a rock paper scissors game when he wants to approach from a dash. Duck beats dash grab but loses to dash attack and shield beats dash attack. The reward off of both of those 2, for Mega, is a utilt if executed properly (crouch>utilt is hard and sourspot utilt happens too often). The reward for Falcon is uairs and complete stage control. I see it ending up closer to even with practice, but Falcon racks up so much damage and has the weight to not care about MB/pellets at low %'s.


Edit: Would love to hear thoughts on this. I know I'm a black sheep when it comes to the Marcina matchup, though.

Edit harder: without customs. I don't have a lot of MU experience with customs yet.

 

[warionumbah2]

Just you wait. Mewtwo will be a meta knight counter, and pac-man will be his worst matchup

If Mewtwo turns out to be light and tall like in melee then what?

Marth + Falco has been in the back of my mind lately as a low-tier dreamteam. Fundamentals all the way. We don't need tricks!

Just watched a match where Marth fair'd MM and the MM player missed the tech and died to a rage tipper F-Smash at around 50%. At least tippers keep him in the game somewhat, dunno about Falco though.

 

[Nobie]

I was thinking about Kirby today, and how if you just said to someone, "Here's a character with on average some of the lowest landing lag on aerials in the game, and also a frame 1 jab," they'd probably be all impressed.

 

[Spirst]

Who does greninja struggle against?

In my opinion, he struggles against speedsters with less commitment. So, Sonic, Sheik, Fox, and so forth. I personally play both Greninja and Pacman and I find that they can do decently together although it's quite the eccentric pairing. Greninja doesn't struggle as much against Rosalina but still has issues with Fox and the like who Pacman is iffy on as well. There are probably better options for pairings. I just find the two characters to be a lot of fun hence why I play them.

 

[Antonykun]

If Mewtwo turns out to be light and tall like in melee then what?

Just watched a match where Marth fair'd MM and the MM player missed the tech and died to a rage tipper F-Smash at around 50%. At least tippers keep him in the game somewhat, dunno about Falco though.

You did not just use my avatar to convey your feeling you magnificent umcher

 

[FullMoon]

I think for the most part while dealing with more speedy characters such as Sonic and Sheik. Greninja will usually want to be more defensive and wait for the opponent to mess up so he can start racking up the damage or get the kill. I think Greninja's worst MUs are Fox and Sheik exactly because they can keep him in pressure with projectiles from afar, forcing him to approach which is something he can't do too well. Sonic and Meta Knight don't have that issue, so I think they would be easier to beat once you get used to their attacks.

So I think Fox and Sheik have a 60:40 advantage over us and Sonic and Meta Knight would be more along the lines of 55:45. That's just a feeling though, I don't really have the experience to say this with confidence. I suppose Sonic can just stall if he wants to, so I guess that's a problem as well.

Other than those four I think all of Greninja's MUs are either even or in his favor. He really only struggles against speedster characters that have safer moves, the rest are all very manageable I think.

 

[Unknownkid]

Yeah, I don't know Kirby's throws aside from U-throw and now I remember that Kirby and Meta Knight share U-throw and D-throw - the stomping. Kirby's F-throw is the flip forward slam, right? If that's so, then yes, I meant F-throw to Fair.

Yeah, the flip forward slam is F-throw. While MetaKnight shares Kirby's Up throw and Dthrow, he can combo from them while Kirby cannot.

I was thinking about Kirby today, and how if you just said to someone, "Here's a character with on average some of the lowest landing lag on aerials in the game, and also a frame 1 jab," they'd probably be all impressed.

And the longest Aerial Startup (18f) which is one of your combo starter, 3rd worst Airspeed but you have 5 jumps to help you bait/trick your opponent, you are one of the lightest characters so you can escape combos easier yet you die faster and you always have approach your opponent. I mean I love the guy and do everything in my power to beat you, but the kid has his flaws. I just need to "git gud". With that being said, Ducking is broken!

Look up Triple R for some awesome Kirby competitive gameplay. This guy is a god.

Edit: Wait, Kirby's jab really does come at 1 frame?! Mind blown.

 

[Kofu]

Kirby's jab is frame 3. It's not frame 1 lol.

From my personal matchup chart:



Some extra notes:
Sheik is often cited as our worst, but I don't think it's awful. It requires patient defense, because she can put a lot of safe pressure on Mega. It's almost a true offense vs defense game that I have come to really enjoy. That said, needle camping is... ugh. And her trump/offstage game is so so good.

Falcon plays a rock paper scissors game when he wants to approach from a dash. Duck beats dash grab but loses to dash attack and shield beats dash attack. The reward off of both of those 2, for Mega, is a utilt if executed properly (crouch>utilt is hard and sourspot utilt happens too often). The reward for Falcon is uairs and complete stage control. I see it ending up closer to even with practice, but Falcon racks up so much damage and has the weight to not care about MB/pellets at low %'s.


Edit: Would love to hear thoughts on this. I know I'm a black sheep when it comes to the Marcina matchup, though.

Edit harder: without customs. I don't have a lot of MU experience with customs yet.

Why is MK so bad? Dimensional Cape helps a ton but I'm sure there's more to it than that (multiple jumps?).

 

[Tagxy]

I actually do think sonic could be kind of bad for MK. It was already a pain in brawl. Having a good low ground, low commitment aerial game and a decent projectile are two helpful traits vs sonic that MK doesnt have.

Regarding pikas QA as a oos option. Can it really be that good because I wanted to get a sense of how long it took for QA to come out as it's not in the frame data. Zss's fsmash (frame 13) was beating it before it seemed like the hitbox came out, although that might the move flat out beating it. If that's the case then QA would be around frame 12. Maybe there's more to it though. Anybody like to explain why it's a amazing oos option.

QA has startup frames, yes; I don't know how many, but it seems significant. I don't use it much as an OOS option or know about it much in that context (I don't use much shield in general as Pikachu; like almost 0). You'll have to ask @ Tagxy about that.

The key here is to punish the moves cool down not start up. Unfortunately we dont have IASA info for attacks at the moment to judge what truly is safe and unsafe.

QA's hitbox in Brawl was f:15-19, and Melee was f:13-18. Shield stun needs to be considered and aerial attacks are hard to judge as well, but I'd feel safe saying anything that has 18-20 frames of cool down/lag afterwards could be punished with Quick Attack. It also makes cross up hits less safe too. If I had to make a super rough guess Id say this applies to 50% of attacks. Thats the first thing.

The second thing to consider is what quick options an opponent has after their attack they can do. If its an attack its not enough that the move come out fast enough itd need to beat quick attack as its moving most likely. However for most characters the only option is probably shield. If thats the case itd mean if you hit pikachus shield, youd need to shield right afterwards to ensure you wouldnt be QA OOS. Right now its probably not intuitive for people to shield just for hitting pikachu on his shield (so theyll just get Quick Attacked). Once they do, itll be a 50/50. Quick Attack beats roll and spot dodge, so if pikachu QA's and they shield they can try to punish it, and if pikachu doesnt Quick Attack now theyre in their shield for an attack that didnt happen. Making another rough guess Id say this applies to an additional 30% of attacks.

Granted depending on percent and character being Quick Attacked isnt the worst thing.

 

[NairWizard]

My 2sense on the matter of MK vs. Megaman: it feels close to even. I'd rather go Pikachu in almost all situations (stage, ruleset/customs, etc.), and that's not because my Pikachu is better than my MK (though that is also true). I have fundamentally better tools for dealing with Megaman as Pikachu than as MK. Short hop game helps a lot. MK's advantage in the MU is being able to up-air Megaman forever into KOs, but he has to get MM up there first. Pikachu has a much, much easier time doing that.

 

[Nobie]

Kirby's jab is frame 3. It's not frame 1 lol.

Whoops, guess I've been getting some bad info? I was referencing this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-initial-frame-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Kirbys Jab is frame 3. You don't need to start with D-air considering your various options: Dtilt trips fairly reliably, Utilt sets up, and falling U-air sets up. Given Kirbys N-air he can transition from Nairs landing lag to Jab in what 12 frames? Essentially in the time it takes Shulk to recover from his N-air, Kirby is jabbing. Something like N-air, Jab 2x, Shield/Dtilt/Crouch/Roll.

Everything "wrong" about Kirby is small, but it's significant.
If Shield stun was higher, you'd have a bunch of safe things that let him jab for free and then use the jabs shield stun to do other crap like Dtilt.

If he moved faster: the effective range of his attacks would let him approach strongly, give him great bait potential, and improved follow ups. He'd get similar results from just longer range. If his specials had the reliability they could it would also be huge for him.

 

[Ultinarok]

Ok, so I know we aren't supposed to be making pre-mature tier lists in any capacity, and I understand that our full MU knowledge is still hazy, but based on all of the discussion we've been doing, I've made a basic "ranking" list of sort based on who everyone believes to be the biggest threats, the most disadvantaged, the best MU scores, etc.

This is NOT my personal list. I'm using everyone's input to piece this list together, so anyone can feel free to correct anything on the list. I'll also make note that it has been some months since the game came out, we have some tournament results to show for, and we have over 400 pages of discussion, so I don't think its too soon to make a basic list like this. Again, no one needs to attack me for this, because I'm basing this on our discussion.

I put 7 or so characters per tier for simplicity's sake. Obviously an official list would not be divided this way. This is also WITHOUT customs. The reason I made this list is because, with customs now confirmed, I agree that we need some kind of basic, non-custom tier list just as a reference. This list is by no means perfect, just something I built from observing the discussion. The middle section is the most hazy. I took that from comments made by mains and tournament performances that I've witnessed, as well as just basic strength/weakness discussion.

Please don't flag this list, I just made it to summarize many ideas we've had and to get input on what is off about it. Again, this is not MY tier list, so to speak.

Top:

High:

High-Mid:

Mid:

Low-Mid:

Low:

Bottom:


Does this look at least basically accurate? If anyone sees anything critically wrong (like someone being way too high or low) let me know and I'll change it. Just trying to get a better idea as to how our meta is developing.

 

[Yokoblue]

Ok, so I know we aren't supposed to be making pre-mature tier lists in any capacity, and I understand that our full MU knowledge is still hazy, but based on all of the discussion we've been doing, I've made a basic "ranking" list of sort based on who everyone believes to be the biggest threats, the most disadvantaged, the best MU scores, etc.

This is NOT my personal list. I'm using everyone's input to piece this list together, so anyone can feel free to correct anything on the list. I'll also make note that it has been some months since the game came out, we have some tournament results to show for, and we have over 400 pages of discussion, so I don't think its too soon to make a basic list like this. Again, no one needs to attack me for this, because I'm basing this on our discussion.

I put 7 characters per tier for simplicity's sake. Obviously an official list would not be divided this way. This is also WITHOUT customs. The reason I made this list is because, with customs now confirmed, I agree that we need some kind of basic, non-custom tier list just as a reference. This list is by no means perfect, just something I built from observing the discussion. The middle section is the most hazy. I took that from comments made by mains and tournament performances that I've witnessed, as well as just basic strength/weakness discussion.

Please don't flag this list, I just made it to summarize many ideas we've had and to get input on what is off about it. Again, this is not MY tier list, so to speak.

Top:

High:

High-Mid:

Mid:

Low-Mid:

Low:

Bottom:


Does this look at least basically accurate? If anyone sees anything critically wrong (like someone being way too high or low) let me know and I'll change it. Just trying to get a better idea as to how our meta is developing.

Why are every tier basically exactly the same numbers. In my opinion, we should have less tier and more people per tier if the difference isnt big, and I think thats the case. I would totally merge high and high mid. mid and low mid, low and bottom. I think only a few character might need to change at that point.

Overall its good.

 

[Ultinarok]

Why are every tier basically exactly the same numbers. In my opinion, we should have less tier and more people per tier if the difference isnt big, and I think thats the case. I would totally merge high and high mid. mid and low mid, low and bottom. I think only a few character might need to change at that point.

If I had definitive orders (like who comes directly before and after Little Mac, for example) I would definitely do that. The extra tiers are meant to help separate them by who is slightly better, i.e. the Pits being a bit better than Duck Hunt, so to demonstrate that, they go a "tier" up. I agree that we won't need many tiers for this game, I'm just splitting them this way to show who may be slightly better/worse, and the order I put them in the tiers are the approximate order they seem to be in, according to our discussion. I.e. Diddy being the first in top tier.

I agree with you though, I just don't want to saturate tiers with a ton of fighters because it makes everyone look mostly equal when some seem to be a bit better overall. That said, I know some characters could be moved up or down to other tiers if we had definite numbers. Hence why this is just a beta list.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ok, so I know we aren't supposed to be making pre-mature tier lists in any capacity, and I understand that our full MU knowledge is still hazy, but based on all of the discussion we've been doing, I've made a basic "ranking" list of sort based on who everyone believes to be the biggest threats, the most disadvantaged, the best MU scores, etc.

This is NOT my personal list. I'm using everyone's input to piece this list together, so anyone can feel free to correct anything on the list. I'll also make note that it has been some months since the game came out, we have some tournament results to show for, and we have over 400 pages of discussion, so I don't think its too soon to make a basic list like this. Again, no one needs to attack me for this, because I'm basing this on our discussion.

I put 7 characters per tier for simplicity's sake. Obviously an official list would not be divided this way. This is also WITHOUT customs. The reason I made this list is because, with customs now confirmed, I agree that we need some kind of basic, non-custom tier list just as a reference. This list is by no means perfect, just something I built from observing the discussion. The middle section is the most hazy. I took that from comments made by mains and tournament performances that I've witnessed, as well as just basic strength/weakness discussion.

Please don't flag this list, I just made it to summarize many ideas we've had and to get input on what is off about it. Again, this is not MY tier list, so to speak.

Top:

High:

High-Mid:

Mid:

Low-Mid:

Low:

Bottom:


Does this look at least basically accurate?

Zard is not bottom 6. He's slightly ahead of the other heavies imo. Pac-Man is also Mid or High-Mid. The rest I could probably buy, though I'm not sure if Falco's that high. I also might move Bowser and DK up a tad.
Edit: also Mac is too high.

 

[FullMoon]

Ok, so I know we aren't supposed to be making pre-mature tier lists in any capacity, and I understand that our full MU knowledge is still hazy, but based on all of the discussion we've been doing, I've made a basic "ranking" list of sort based on who everyone believes to be the biggest threats, the most disadvantaged, the best MU scores, etc.

This is NOT my personal list. I'm using everyone's input to piece this list together, so anyone can feel free to correct anything on the list. I'll also make note that it has been some months since the game came out, we have some tournament results to show for, and we have over 400 pages of discussion, so I don't think its too soon to make a basic list like this. Again, no one needs to attack me for this, because I'm basing this on our discussion.

I put 7 characters per tier for simplicity's sake. Obviously an official list would not be divided this way. This is also WITHOUT customs. The reason I made this list is because, with customs now confirmed, I agree that we need some kind of basic, non-custom tier list just as a reference. This list is by no means perfect, just something I built from observing the discussion. The middle section is the most hazy. I took that from comments made by mains and tournament performances that I've witnessed, as well as just basic strength/weakness discussion.

Please don't flag this list, I just made it to summarize many ideas we've had and to get input on what is off about it. Again, this is not MY tier list, so to speak.

Top:

High:

High-Mid:

Mid:

Low-Mid:

Low:

Bottom:


Does this look at least basically accurate? If anyone sees anything critically wrong (like someone being way too high or low) let me know and I'll change it. Just trying to get a better idea as to how our meta is developing.

I think Pac-Man and R.O.B are a bit too low in that list, you could swap one of them with Little Mac I guess, I think the fact that Mac depends more on the stage than most other characters makes him a bit lower.

 

[Ultinarok]

Zard is not bottom 6. He's slightly ahead of the other heavies imo. Pac-Man is also Mid or High-Mid. The rest I could probably buy, though I'm not sure if Falco's that high. I also might move Bowser and DK up a tad.

Yeah Pac-Man was a tough one for me. I had him in Mid originally but felt that those seven beat him out for the middle based on people discussing his KO issues and his laggy grab making it hard to set up combos. But his camping game is solid. I can definitely move him back up.

Why would you say Zard is better than DK and Bowser? Most people have said that, without customs, Zard is slightly inferior to them, but I'd be willing to believe he may be better.

 

[Nu~]

Ok, so I know we aren't supposed to be making pre-mature tier lists in any capacity, and I understand that our full MU knowledge is still hazy, but based on all of the discussion we've been doing, I've made a basic "ranking" list of sort based on who everyone believes to be the biggest threats, the most disadvantaged, the best MU scores, etc.

This is NOT my personal list. I'm using everyone's input to piece this list together, so anyone can feel free to correct anything on the list. I'll also make note that it has been some months since the game came out, we have some tournament results to show for, and we have over 400 pages of discussion, so I don't think its too soon to make a basic list like this. Again, no one needs to attack me for this, because I'm basing this on our discussion.

I put 7 characters per tier for simplicity's sake. Obviously an official list would not be divided this way. This is also WITHOUT customs. The reason I made this list is because, with customs now confirmed, I agree that we need some kind of basic, non-custom tier list just as a reference. This list is by no means perfect, just something I built from observing the discussion. The middle section is the most hazy. I took that from comments made by mains and tournament performances that I've witnessed, as well as just basic strength/weakness discussion.

Please don't flag this list, I just made it to summarize many ideas we've had and to get input on what is off about it. Again, this is not MY tier list, so to speak.

Top:

High:

High-Mid:

Mid:

Low-Mid:

Low:

Bottom:


Does this look at least basically accurate? If anyone sees anything critically wrong (like someone being way too high or low) let me know and I'll change it. Just trying to get a better idea as to how our meta is developing.

How did you get "low mid" for pac-man based on the discussion we've had in this thread about him? If we were to reflect the general opinion of this thread on his position, he would be high mid.
IMO he's in the middle of high
And having a slow grab doesn't mean that it is hard for him to set up combos

http://shoryuken.com/2015/01/22/did...l-in-these-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-combos/

Fair->fair->nair
Fair->hydrant->nair
Nair->nair->ftilt

 

[Ultinarok]

How did you get "low mid" for pac-man based on the discussion we've had in this thread about him? If we were to reflect the general opinion of this thread on his position, he would be high mid.
IMO he's in the middle of high

Yeah I had him higher, like I said, I just heard a couple Pac-Man mains say he's held to mid tier by his grab and KO problems. I moved him up to the top end of mid tier, may move him up more if enough people agree he is high-mid.

For those wondering, I'm editing the list. Just watch the character placement to see how I'm updating it.