Character Competitive Impressions

[Forty4]

Isn't Lucario more dangerous to characters who can't kill well or do a lot of damage, but have limited and/or predictable kill moves - I think that was redundant...

So, against say, Fox... Let's go with Duck Hunt, Lucario will probably be getting hit a lot or even letting himself get hit to build up rage and Aura while Duck Hunt tries to get Lucario to KO percent and land a kill. Here's the thing, they might be at KO percents even if Duck Hunt is say, at 60% while Lucario is at 110%.

With characters that can kill quickly or have good kill options, Lucario might have more trouble. So, Ike and Ganondorf would be able to end Lucario well compared to say, Meta Knight and er... Fox?

And this is my main problem when fighting Lucario; I can't get the kill. I play Yoshi, and while he has many ways to kill, he can't really get to them, outside of using Jab 1 to set up for a smash. Let's say I'm at 60% and the Lucario is at 120%. What a perfect time to kill! So I keep trying to kill him while Lucario throws out one move and kills me. Granted, I can deal with them, it's just an annoyance I have when facing a Lucario.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Lucario's aura is simply no longer scale-tipping levels of power and threat in a world with WiiU blast zones and no vectoring.

I don't own a Wii U, so I assume the blast zones are smaller? Or should I say they are bigger if it is easier to kill. The thing is when Lucario starts playing campy to stay alive, that is when players have problems against him since he has tools to make him effective at camp once he gets a lot of aura. Maybe this one isn't that big of a problem,but Lucario's side b with high rage is a problem since it is basically a laser when he doesn't grab you and when he does grab you with it with high rage + aura you are most likely going to get killed even at low % with good DI.

 

[Antonykun]

I don't own a Wii U, so I assume the blast zones are smaller? Or should I say they are bigger if it is easier to kill. The thing is when Lucario starts playing campy to stay alive, that is when players have problems against him since he has tools to make him effective at camp once he gets a lot of aura. Maybe this one isn't that big of a problem,but Lucario's side b with high rage is a problem since it is basically a laser when he doesn't grab you and when he does grab you with it with high rage + aura you are most likely going to get killed even at low % with good DI.

Force Palm and that's about it...

 

[Pyr]

And this is my main problem when fighting Lucario; I can't get the kill. I play Yoshi, and while he has many ways to kill, he can't really get to them, outside of using Jab 1 to set up for a smash. Let's say I'm at 60% and the Lucario is at 120%. What a perfect time to kill! So I keep trying to kill him while Lucario throws out one move and kills me. Granted, I can deal with them, it's just an annoyance I have when facing a Lucario.

The moment someone sees your actively trying for a kill, they auto-know that you're going to be going for some options far more then others. With that, you become semi-predictable and you'll have a lot more difficulty getting the kill. Better to get hits and kill at 150% then miss all your hits at 120%.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Lucario's aura is simply no longer scale-tipping levels of power and threat in a world with WiiU blast zones and no vectoring.

Well then it's time to tip the scales!
In all seriousness, Lucario is what he's always been: risk-reward. I've seen and played against several top level Lucario mains, and it can really turn into a game of keep away when Lucario is at high percents. One wrong move and your dead. Thing is... wrong moves don't happen so often anymore. See, when the game came out, we didn't know all the kill confirms and various combo strings we know now. This is why Bowser seemed so godlike on day one (to many people). Characters like Lucario and Bowser didn't need kill confirms. With rage, their presence was practically a kill confirm. But then, everything changed when the fire nation attacked metagame evolved. I still think Lucario is solid. Maybe he's not on Sheik's level, but still a viable character (who isn't these days?)

 

[Vincent21]

Serious question: what kill moves does Lucario have that aren't high-frame start-up or otherwise really predictable? I mean I feel like aurasphere is a tad too slow for it's own good and that things like force palm and his smashes offer you a tad too much time to react, creating an environment where Lucario has to wait and get beat up and around until he can finally get a kill and then struggle to land a KO move without a hard read in a way that lacks the lopsided risk reward associated with say Mario's USmash in which it's safe to do, hits hard, and is an easy read.

Lucario, possibly just do to my
inexperience strikes me as a character who not only has to place himself into a ludicrous risk state in order to be a threat, but then experiences a lopsided risk-reward tree in which he's honest very likely to die before landing his 60% cheese because while his moves get better what set-up can he consistently rely on to convert the damage buffs he's getting into an actual shot?

 

[Antonykun]

on to stages, I also don't own a WII U but I know that the only stage that has low blast zones as far as I can tell is Prism Tower on the 3DS. In 3DS Tours (Those exist?) just ban Prism and You'll be Ok

 

[NachoOfCheese]

on to stages, I also don't own a WII U but I know that the only stage that has low blast zones as far as I can tell is Prism Tower on the 3DS. In 3DS Tours (Those exist?) just ban Prism and You'll be Ok

Yoshi's Island tho

 

[Lavani]

Serious question: what kill moves does Lucario have that aren't high-frame start-up or otherwise really predictable?

Aura Sphere's charging hits combo into usmash, uair is frame 10 with decent kill power and combos from throws (though I'm not sure about it at kill percent) and utilt. While Force Palm's projectile is slow to come out, the grabbox is frame 9.

Someone that actually plays the character could probably tell you more, I'm still learning.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Serious question: what kill moves does Lucario have that aren't high-frame start-up or otherwise really predictable? I mean I feel like aurasphere is a tad too slow for it's own good and that things like force palm and his smashes offer you a tad too much time to react, creating an environment where Lucario has to wait and get beat up and around until he can finally get a kill and then struggle to land a KO move without a hard read in a way that lacks the lopsided risk reward associated with say Mario's USmash in which it's safe to do, hits hard, and is an easy read.

Lucario, possibly just do to my
inexperience strikes me as a character who not only has to place himself into a ludicrous risk state in order to be a threat, but then experiences a lopsided risk-reward tree in which he's honest very likely to die before landing his 60% cheese because while his moves get better what set-up can he consistently rely on to convert the damage buffs he's getting into an actual shot?

Up Smash hits reasonably fast and is easier to set up then you'd think.

Aura Sphere if you use proper mix ups

Up air can kill after baited air dodges

Force palm's grabbing part of course kills crazy early in aura

And surprisingly dash attack is a reliable kill move if you space it right to avoid the punish off shield

At low aura, your best bets are up smash and up air off of reads, but at high aura pretty much anything

 

[Vincent21]

Aura Sphere's charging hits combo into usmash, uair is frame 10 with decent kill power and combos from throws (though I'm not sure about it at kill percent) and utilt. While Force Palm's projectile is slow to come out, the grabbox is frame 9.

Someone that actually plays the character could probably tell you more, I'm still learning.

Up Smash hits reasonably fast and is easier to set up then you'd think.

Aura Sphere if you use proper mix ups

Up air can kill after baited air dodges

Force palm's grabbing part of course kills crazy early in aura

And surprisingly dash attack is a reliable kill move if you space it right to avoid the punish off shield

At low aura, your best bets are up smash and up air, but at high aura pretty much anything

So uair and the command grab of Force Palm (Aura/Rage, Character, and/or position dependant?). Perhaps dash attack.

I'd like to probe the question of "proper mix-ups" for Aura Sphere because it seems like basically using it like charge shot, only with added utility because the charge itself has application.

Like, while I'm not arguing Samus vs Lucario or anything silly like that, Charge Shot is typically easier to create a mix-up or set-up for charge shot because Samus has missles to bait shielding/dodging/rolling. Lucario's primary projectile is also the kill move in question and is therefore removed from the mix-up itself except as, well, the KO move.

What can you reliably do to create a difficult Aura Sphere scenario? On it's own it's a very, very react-able projectile that's asking for a perfect shield. But the same thing can be said for a lot of KO moves in the game that are effective.

The question is, what set-ups are truly effective given Luc's kit?

 

[NairWizard]

I'm actually trying to get pocket plus on AA custom moves project. You should go there and stop me. That reminds me Pika's customs are bad except for thunder wave and heavy skull bash.

Pikachu's customs aren't bad. It's just that his defaults are way too good.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What about Lucario's back air? That thing kills pretty early iirc

 

[Ffamran]

What about Lucario's back air? That thing kills pretty early iirc

It comes out at frame 16, though... Powerful, but slow.

 

[Kofu]

Pikachu's customs aren't bad. It's just that his defaults are way too good.

How is Meteor Quick Attack? I don't use Pikachu but it seems like giving that move meteor effect would he pretty brutal. I assume it has additional startup or lowered range to compensate. From my testing Thunder Shock, while situational, is amusingly powerful if you hit with the aerial projectile. Thunder Burst (which should have been called Discharge, smh localization) loses a lot of the flexibility that default Thunder offers (does the call for the projectile trigger on frame 1? It seems like it) but gives Pikachu a cool KO option.

 

[Djent]

Does Pikachu have any combos into Heavy Skull Bash? That's perhaps the only way I could see customs not hurting his viability.

 

[NairWizard]

Does Pikachu have any combos into Heavy Skull Bash? That's perhaps the only way I could see customs not hurting his viability.

Yes, Quick Feet combos into Heavy Skull Bash (you can DI away from Pikachu though).

How is Meteor Quick Attack? I don't use Pikachu but it seems like giving that move meteor effect would he pretty brutal. I assume it has additional startup or lowered range to compensate. From my testing Thunder Shock, while situational, is amusingly powerful if you hit with the aerial projectile. Thunder Burst (which should have been called Discharge, smh localization) loses a lot of the flexibility that default Thunder offers (does the call for the projectile trigger on frame 1? It seems like it) but gives Pikachu a cool KO option.

Meteor Quick Attack is a good move on its own, but it's vastly inferior to Quick Attack.

Same for Quick Feet. Quick Feet is a Top Tier move, but it isn't worth taking because it's so inferior to Quick Attack.

 

[HeroMystic]

What about Lucario's back air? That thing kills pretty early iirc

I've seen this in action. It's powerful but it comes out so slow that it looks like Lucario is contemplating whether he should use it or not. On top of that the range is not very good.

 

[Nobie]

I don't know if this the right place for this sort of thing, but this recent video measuring fall, fastfall, and horizontal airspeed claims that Lucina and Marth have very subtly different mobility stats.

I would ask in the Lucina boards, but there's that giant locked post at the top that says "NO DIFFERENCES EXCEPT SWORD, BEING SHORTER, AND WORSE LAG UPON HITTING SHIELDS." Of course we know now that there's something odd about Lucina that makes her perfect pivot better (at least last I recall), but I didn't quite want to open up a whole host of erroneous information as tends to happen with Lucina vs. Marth.

According to that video, Marth has very slightly better horizontal air mobility, while Lucina has an ever-so-slightly quicker fastfall. Is there anything to this, or might this be caused by simple human errors in how these stats were measured?

EDIT: Especially because this post that uses the raw data from the game shows all numbers are equivalent.

 

[Ffamran]

Disregard, I'm stupid and I left the CPU on random and they probably got some buffs...

 

[san.]

Pikachu's thundershock can kill at the edge at a very early %. I saw a Sonic get killed by it at 67% at the edge of Halberd. It has lots of end lag, but you have to respect its power.

 

[NairWizard]

Pikachu's thundershock can kill at the edge at a very early %. I saw a Sonic get killed by it at 67% at the edge of Halberd. It has lots of end lag, but you have to respect its power.

Yeah, Thunder Wave can also combo into Heavy Skull Bash I believe for the KO.
Heavy Skull Bash is like an f-smash with twice the range.
Thunder Shock is a great KO move. It's worth taking in matchups where Thunderjolt really doesn't do much.

Pikachu's customs are actually all fantastic; Shocking Skull Bash and Thunder Burst are the worst of the lot, and they still have their uses.

The fact that literally all of his customs are KO moves in some way or lead to KOs in some way is hilarious. (the fact that he doesn't need them shows just how much people underrate his KO power, too)

 

[RIP_Lucas]

So uair and the command grab of Force Palm (Aura/Rage, Character, and/or position dependant?). Perhaps dash attack.

I'd like to probe the question of "proper mix-ups" for Aura Sphere because it seems like basically using it like charge shot, only with added utility because the charge itself has application.

Like, while I'm not arguing Samus vs Lucario or anything silly like that, Charge Shot is typically easier to create a mix-up or set-up for charge shot because Samus has missles to bait shielding/dodging/rolling. Lucario's primary projectile is also the kill move in question and is therefore removed from the mix-up itself except as, well, the KO move.

What can you reliably do to create a difficult Aura Sphere scenario? On it's own it's a very, very react-able projectile that's asking for a perfect shield. But the same thing can be said for a lot of KO moves in the game that are effective.

The question is, what set-ups are truly effective given Luc's kit?

Out of neutral, best way to get a reliable aura sphere is through your movement. Feinting an aerial or dash into shield, getting just enough space to avoid their attack is not that hard, and at close range, the Aura Sphere itself hits almost instantly.

There is of course the problem of Lucario's maneuverability is not anything to cry about, so characters like sheik can make this pretty difficult, but the pressure of mis spacing a single aerial possibly leading to death can be enough to make anyone tense enough to make a mistake.

The biggest thing is that aura sphere out prioritizes almost every attack and projectile with aura, and it comes out fast enough that only the quickest attacks can't be punished by it at close range. Mix ups can pretty reliably lure punishable attacks as long as the opponent isn't too defensive.

Lucario isn't a heavy combo heavy character. His longest chain I know is only 5 hits. At percents aura sphere reliably kos, none of his moves combo into KO moves because of high knock back, so his game is all about baits and punishes

 

[Quickhero]

@ Nobie Yeah I'm pretty sure that's true, but keep in mind that even then the amount of end lag Marth and Lucina has on their aerials I'm pretty sure the slightly faster fastfall doesn't really help, and the slightly better perfect pivot is INCREDIBLY NICHE at best compared to the fact that Marth will utilize perfect pivots much better because tippers just makes situations so much more rewarding for him and it allows him to just abuse all the tools. Sorry man. :\ I'm sure there is a niche for that perfect pivot/miniscule fast-fall and maybe it will be found.

I kind of feel bad for just flat out saying your main is essentially sub-par. Speaking of which though I really want to hear even more discussion on this Lucario thing because Lucario is definitely someone whom I would consider one of the few characters I have an interest in getting good in that isn't Marth so the more I see on why I have troubles with Lucario and seeing more problems/ways mains mitigate those flaws would be great. :3

 

[Nobie]

@ Nobie Yeah I'm pretty sure that's true, but keep in mind that even then the amount of end lag Marth and Lucina has on their aerials I'm pretty sure the slightly faster fastfall doesn't really help, and the slightly better perfect pivot is INCREDIBLY NICHE at best compared to the fact that Marth will utilize perfect pivots much better because tippers just makes situations so much more rewarding for him and it allows him to just abuse all the tools. Sorry man. :\ I'm sure there is a niche for that perfect pivot/miniscule fast-fall and maybe it will be found.

I kind of feel bad for just flat out saying your main is essentially sub-par.

My main is Mega Man, who as we've established is a lot better than people initially thought. This is more just academic curiosity.

 

[Anomilus]

I don't know if this the right place for this sort of thing, but this recent video measuring fall, fastfall, and horizontal airspeed claims that Lucina and Marth have very subtly different mobility stats.

I totally believe it. People are always like "You mind as well use Marth...", and I don't simply 'cause Lucina feels better to move around with. Marth feels floatier and looser when I control him. Lucina feels tighter, and that's enough of a difference for me.

 

[Conda]

I totally believe it. People are always like "You mind as well use Marth...", and I don't simply 'cause Lucina feels better to move around with. Marth feels floatier and looser when I control him. Lucina feels tighter, and that's enough of a difference for me.

It's in your head, though - this kind of thing has no place being posted in a thread that others read with the hope of absorbing insight and knowledge from others.

 

[NairWizard]

I totally believe it. People are always like "You mind as well use Marth...", and I don't simply 'cause Lucina feels better to move around with. Marth feels floatier and looser when I control him. Lucina feels tighter, and that's enough of a difference for me.

If what Nobie posted is true, anyway, then Marth is even better than Lucina than we thought. Greater fall speed means greater susceptibility to combos like up-tilt chains. And greater horizontal air speed is obviously good. Even this, as minor as it looks to be (if it exists at all, that is), is an advantage in Marth's favor.

 

[Vincent21]

Out of neutral, best way to get a reliable aura sphere is through your movement. Feinting an aerial or dash into shield, getting just enough space to avoid their attack is not that hard, and at close range, the Aura Sphere itself hits almost instantly.

There is of course the problem of Lucario's maneuverability is not anything to cry about, so characters like sheik can make this pretty difficult, but the pressure of mis spacing a single aerial possibly leading to death can be enough to make anyone tense enough to make a mistake.

The biggest thing is that aura sphere out prioritizes almost every attack and projectile with aura, and it comes out fast enough that only the quickest attacks can't be punished by it at close range. Mix ups can pretty reliably lure punishable attacks as long as the opponent isn't too defensive.

Lucario isn't a support combo heavy character. His longest chain I know is only 5 hits. At percents aura sphere reliably kos, none of his moves combo into KO moves because of high knock back, so his game is all about baits and punishes

This is sort of what I've been getting at when I try to figure out whether I'm underestimating this character or not; how do you perform an effective punish game when you only have one direct projectile and you don't have above-average mobility, in addition to being somewhat restricted by slower moves?

It feels like he'd really struggle with effective zoners since Aura, from a distance, is actually very manageable and at worse would force them to power-shield it on reaction (very doable). Any character that can keep you at a distance (something totally doable with mobility advantages and disjoints or fast-frame moves present on various characters) sounds like a nightmare to your entire game plan.

And that ultimately leads to my problem with the character. You kind of actually HAVE to enter aura state to be threatening in that sort of scenario. It's the only thing that gives your attacks enough reward on individual hits or successful reads to compensate the vast number of engages that will likely be going your opponents way (engagements referring to individual trades in neutral, like a Wario flying in at the speed of fat and attempting to poke you with fair, if he stuffs your move he got the better end, and if you trade or stuff him, you get it etc. etc.).

I doesn't matter during aura if Shiek juggles you across the stage for 40% if your next hit is a kill move with any move, after all. Her 6-7 exchanges to your 1 exchange would still prove value effective.

But this is dependant on aura state, aka Rage+. Which is self-defeating since it simply means that you end up with a wider equal trade value... but don't fix your issues with superior exchanging (i.e. Shiek) since you too are in kill % range by the time your moves are strong enough to begin compensating your neutral.

 

[mimgrim]

Also that last sentence is completely bunk.

Melee is developed by over a decade in terms of match-up understanding. Fox has not gotten any less easier to play or less good, and characters of off-tier like Young Link or Kirby have not become any better. Complete information actually has the opposite effect; characters who succeed based on a lack of player knowledge and gimmicks lose their position on the tier list, and only the characters who are still difficult to fight after everyone about them is known remain as top tier characters. You ultimately end up with the consistently most advantaged character's on top, after the gimmicks are weeded out.

I'm not going to touch the rest of your post because it is basically just a different look at the same view.

This part, however, is incorrect.

Fox is actually very hard to play in the current meta-game yet is still the best character in the game. Why is this? Because a single mistake from the Fox play is usually going to mean stock because the punish game against Fox has been expanded to astounding levels because of how popular he is. Even in top level play he is not the easiest to win with, even in nationals Fox hasn't been getting 1st place all that often until relatively recently and there are still other top 6 characters littered around quite often still. The reason Fox is considered the best in the game is that in theory a perfect Fox (read: TAS level) is unbeatable.

The reason the best character in a game becomes harder and harder to play is because people's punish game on said character will become better and better as the meta matures because even the tiniest mistake can lead to a huge punish. This doesn't mean the character is no longer the best character in the game but it does mean players of the best character will have to put in more work.

So if any of you from the old days were wondering why Thinkaman isn't just beating everyone with buffed Jiggs, there's your answer. Maybe I'm just resisting change and need to just put in the time, but she's... just so weird to me.

It probably really is just the differences.

Playing the same character among different games just doesn't work for everyone because accustoming to the difference is annoying for them. I know I can't stand playing Olimar in this game because of how he was changed. And I certainly couldn't play Toon Link in this game because it is a completely different engine from Project M.

 

[Vincent21]

I'm not going to touch the rest of your post because it is basically just a different look at the same view.

This part, however, is incorrect.

Fox is actually very hard to play in the current meta-game yet is still the best character in the game. Why is this? Because a single mistake from the Fox play is usually going to mean stock because the punish game against Fox has been expanded to astounding levels because of how popular he is. Even in top level play he is not the easiest to win with, even in nationals Fox hasn't been getting 1st place all that often until relatively recently and there are still other top 6 characters littered around quite often still. The reason Fox is considered the best in the game is that in theory a perfect Fox (read: TAS level) is unbeatable.

The reason the best character in a game becomes harder and harder to play is because people's punish game on said character will become better and better as the meta matures because even the tiniest mistake can lead to a huge punish. This doesn't mean the character is no longer the best character in the game but it does mean players of the best character will have to put in more work.

Except that if that were a trait unique to Fox he probably would've been usurped by now because even the Gods of Smash are not robots but mere mortals, and would error too often to consistently nuke their competition. Punishes in Melee are insane universally. Recovery quite honestly relies on the edge-guarding party making a mistake. Falcon, Ganon, Fox, Falco, Shiek, Mario/Doc, Link(s), Yosh.... everyone is Melee is boned once they're off. It's part of the reason Melee is faster and generally more brutal. You have to consistently succeed in the neutral because disadvantage isn't even a realistic option.

But in neutral, it's just blatantly easier to defeat and advance against the majority of the cast as Fox. He's easier to get someone into disadvantage/recovery than everyone else, because he has the most advantages in terms of mu and risk:reward.

If you really think people are using this character because of his performance when TAS-played/God played, that's a little mental. Mango, Leffen, and company use him because they're more likely to win because of his advantages over other characters in neutral. They'll have an easier time. If it was easier to win with another character, you'd use that character.

Hell, Armada literally switched (rip in peace turnip lady) to make things easier and more consistent on his end.

Fox isn't hard to play relative to the cast; Melee is hard to play in general. It's an unforgiving, brutal, bloodbath where literally one incorrect reaction to a mix-up just outright kills you. That's not character-specific. That's game relative. Don't get it twisted :v

 

[A2ZOMG]

So, not to brag but just to set the context, I was considered "the best Jiggs" for the first few years of Brawl's life. I won quite a few sub-regional tourneys with her, and placed pretty decently at regional events in spite of, well, playing a somewhat awful character.

Jiggs is overall a better character in Smash 4, but a few things keep me from playing her much:


The big one is Pound. Pound was Jigglypuff's trump card in virtually all bad matchups. "Thinkaman's Law of Brawl Jigglypuff" was "The worse the matchup is, the higher percentage of your actions should be Pound." Jigglypuff had essentially unmatched spacing capabilities, but poor range and speed. (Similar to Wario.) Characters who offered fast disjointedness could just wall attacks and consistently shut down everything about her plan--until Pound comes in.

Pound said "screw that noise" and just flat out won against pretty much anything but a G&W bair. Sure, it was a high-risk move with certain punish on whiff, but against mindless walls of attacks it was a safe bet. What was critical, was that the momentum of Pound let it be used comfortably early and enabled it to beat purely defensive walling that wasn't even going to hit you. Meta-Knight's poor aerial mobility in particular was harshly punished by Pound; Pound turned an otherwise disastrous matchup into a shockingly okay one. It was also crucial against the dominating disjointed ground attacks of Snake.

Smash 4 gutted that momentum from Pound, leaving Jigglypuff--while otherwise a much better character--without a trump card to save her in problematic matchups. If it weren't for massive (and highly justified) nerfs to the extent of fast disjointedness in the game, she would have a few hard counters.


The next issue is speed. In Smash 4, having fast attacks matters. A lot. Literally all the characters we consider candidates for top tier have fast attacks. Jigglypuff's moveset, both ground and aerial, is very slow. She relies on her unmatched mobility instead, but in Smash 4's environment this isn't as good of a plan.


Next, the proliferation of vertical kills in the environment. Brawl has Shuttle Loop and Snake u-tilt. Smash 4 has... basically everything. Diddy uair, Rosalina u-smash and uair, ZSS up-b and uair, Sonic u-smash, Ness uair (and sort of b-throw), Pikachu u-smash, Fox u-smash, Falcon uair and side-b, Yoshi u-smash and uair... It seems like all the scariest kill moves are vertically-focused, and Jiggs is terrified of this world.


Jigglypuff's Grab seems a little smaller, and her great dash grab is much worse. I played Jigglypuff as a roll- heavy grappler on the ground, and this doesn't pay off as much in this game. I also used DACUS as a good mixup for this playstyle, but that's gone too. (No complaints though; DACUS was a stupid input)


Then we've got Rollout. Rollout was like the Little Mac of Brawl. It was by no means good, it only worked well on certain stages, and using it foolishly, including in neutral ever, was a death sentence. But like Little Mac, it was grossly underrated and dismissed entirely by players who didn't understand it. Rollout was a reliable KO-capable tech chase in highly specific situations, and a surprisingly threatening recovery option in certain matchups. (The overlooked key is that you could release at a very wide variety of heights. In most matchups, at least one of these heights ends up being safe for any possible opponent action.) Very frequently, the slightest differences in release timing on aerial rollout could beat attacks meant to punish other timings. (This was less and less true the more range the opponent had.)

In Smash 4, Rollout is just as unsafe but a lot weaker. What's more, the aerial version bounces off shields instead of going through them safely. This means that the range of valid recovery paths is cut short a small but critical amount--the opponent no longer has to correct place an sufficiently ranged and timed attack on the air-to-ground paths, just be in the way and shield.


The Rest buffs are fine, but some vertical KOs in this game are instant. So... I guess I'm actually not allowed to use Rest except last stock? So much for that I guess.


Then we've got the new air dodge landing lag. I feel that this slightly hurts Jiggs, overall. In Brawl, her mobility and last hitboxes on nair and Pound gave her unique ability to punish landing air dodges anyway. On the other hand, Jigglypuff could convert her aerial footsies into a ground grab with a "triangle jump" sort of approach, which would beat many defensive moves meant to beat her unusual air game approach. Now this transitional option is removed.


Finally, while Jigglypuff is buffed overall from it, I'm uneasy about putting all the character's power on bair. What about matchups where landing bair is hard? As discussed earlier, used to this is where Pound came in, but it's a lot less reliable as a back-up plan now...


Oh, a bonus "nerf" that's just ironic. Jigglypuff used to have a 7:3 matchup against Diddy in Brawl! This was because she could consistently Rest him out of dash attack, jab, f-smash, and u-smash on reaction, which all had one-frame gaps in them. These were fixed by changes to Diddy. (Note that if they were not changed, Little Mac would also be able to up-b all these things on reaction too!)


I am conflicted. New Jigglypuff feels like an already poor character who was modestly nerfed and put in a more hostile environment. On the other hand, she was compensated with:

• One of the most legitimately absurd hitboxes in the game put on her primary move, bair.
• A reasonably scary, frame-1-invincible, frame-1-hitting KO move in a game that places an emphasis on speed and pseudo-combos.
• Massive nerfs across the board to fast disjoint, which was her biggest problem. (G&W and Marth were hard counters in Brawl.)

So if any of you from the old days were wondering why Thinkaman isn't just beating everyone with buffed Jiggs, there's your answer. Maybe I'm just resisting change and need to just put in the time, but she's... just so weird to me.

Pound's power seems less about auto-breaking zoning but more threatening to punish people for shielding against Jigg's air game. While I overhyped its massive shield damage early on, I still think that this part of Jigg's arsenal is pretty underutilized and extremely important and makes her pretty threatening. Space on their shield safely a few times and then they have to respect the shield damage on Pound.

 

[Thinkaman]

Pound's power seems less about auto-breaking zoning but more threatening to punish people for shielding against Jigg's air game. While I overhyped its massive shield damage early on, I still think that this part of Jigg's arsenal is pretty underutilized and extremely important and makes her pretty threatening. Space on their shield safely a few times and then they have to respect the shield damage on Pound.

Lower shield HP helps Jiggs more than anyone else in the game (really ironic given her own shield break penalty); my comments totally overlooked this. Thanks!

 

[Vincent21]

Lower shield HP helps Jiggs more than anyone else in the game (really ironic given her own shield break penalty); my comments totally overlooked this. Thanks!

That's a pretty solid point honestly. Without pound's ability to so aggressively threaten the shield Jigglypuff would have a terrible time in this game because there would be otherwise nothing to incentivize your opponent to not just constantly shield all the time to keep you out. It let's her keep playing her game and gives her a solution to the problem of really being in an opportune position to grab someone.

Little Mac gets the same kind of boost from downward-angled fsmash. I have broken shields just throwing blatant fsmashes at people who've been turtling and eating one too many ftilt/dtilts on shield, neglectful of the fact I have a move with bonus shield damage. It's a mistake people only make once, but once is enough to claim a stock.

 

[Thinkaman]

That's a pretty solid point honestly. Without pound's ability to so aggressively threaten the shield Jigglypuff would have a terrible time in this game because there would be otherwise nothing to incentivize your opponent to not just constantly shield all the time to keep you out. It let's her keep playing her game and gives her a solution to the problem of really being in an opportune position to grab someone.

Little Mac gets the same kind of boost from downward-angled fsmash. I have broken shields just throwing blatant fsmashes at people who've been turtling and eating one too many ftilt/dtilts on shield, neglectful of the fact I have a move with bonus shield damage. It's a mistake people only make once, but once is enough to claim a stock.

I think Pound is a much stronger case of this though, because unlike all other anti-shield moves (except full charge Phantom) it beats spot-dodges.

Also, Pound does even more shield damage than a LM downward f-smash. It's nuts.

 

[Vincent21]

I think Pound is a much stronger case of this though, because unlike all other anti-shield moves (except full charge Phantom) it beats spot-dodges.

Also, Pound does even more shield damage than a LM downward f-smash. It's nuts.

No yeah I play a Jiggly as one of the few training partners I have in this world who're not an online-only thing and I'm consistently forced to either increase aggression or actively space the character because I'll have one pound go un-powershielded and just end up completely out of a practical shield.

Edit: Oh hey 100th post. I know I don't get like a birthday cake or anything, but like... do I get one of those cupcakes with just a single, sad candle in it? That'd be acceptable. I love cupcakes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Pound is a much stronger case of this though, because unlike all other anti-shield moves (except full charge Phantom) it beats spot-dodges.

Also, Pound does even more shield damage than a LM downward f-smash. It's nuts.

I hate that LM's F-smash in some matchups is not safe on block. The hitlag modifier I believe is to blame, and given his rather poor grab game...this really skews some of his matchups very unfavorably.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Sooo aparently naryu's love beats quick attack. not in mid session of course. but pika actually cant spam it though.

 

[Thinkaman]

Sooo aparently naryu's love beats quick attack. not in mid session of course. but pika actually cant spam it though.

I might be insane, but isn't Quick attack technically an article-based hitbox--like Din's Fire or Explosive Flame? Am I remembering this right?

If so, reflectors very well might stop it...?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I might be insane, but isn't Quick attack technically an article-based hitbox--like Din's Fire or Explosive Flame? Am I remembering this right?

If so, reflectors very well might stop it...?

might make for good reason to have that zelda custom that just reflects/turns around in one hit box instead of damage.