Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

might make for good reason to have that zelda custom that just reflects instead of damage.

That's not a thing?

Nayru's 1 and 2 reflect and do damage, Nayru's 3 just does damage.

3 is interesting, but I'm 99% sure that Nayru's Love (default) is the only decent option.

Edit: I used to think 3 was arguably worth it. I recant this opinion.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

That's not a thing?

Nayru's 1 and 2 reflect and do damage, Nayru's 3 just does damage.

3 is interesting, but I'm 99% sure that Nayru's Love (default) is the only decent option.

Edit: I used to think 3 was arguably worth it. I recant this opinion.

well default does not flip the oponent like cape does. her 2 custom does however. could actually help her with gimping to be honest. makes the opponent being offstage a possible advantage state.

 

[Thinkaman]

well default does not flip the oponent like cape does. her 2 custom does however.

Right, but it also does less damage and I'm pretty sure is unsafe on hit. Hits 5 frames later, invincibility frames probably later too. Also reflects at a lower ratio? Not sure. Bad move.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Right, but it also does less damage and I'm pretty sure is unsafe on hit. Hits 5 frames later, invincibility frames probably later too. Also reflects at a lower ratio? Not sure. Bad move.

yeah i really did not experiment with it my self im just theory crafting.

but once again it could be usefull for gimping recoverys somthing she could definitly use.

 

[Thinkaman]

but once again it could be usefull for gimping recoverys somthing she could definitly use.

Nope, like Spinphony it does a trivial amount of actual knockback (unlike Cape), which resets helpless state.

Just say no to Nayru's Rejection.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Nope, like Spinphony it does a trivial amount of actual knockback (unlike Cape), which resets helpless state.

Just say no to Nayru's Rejection.

oh really? bummer seems like it coulda been a usefull move otherwise. lol zeldas whole game is destined to be neutral.
but yeah original statement QA losses to naryu's love for the most part.

 

[New_Dumal]

Tonight I played some great matches, and was surprised about MK in Smash 4, in that aspect:

I main Sheik in Smash 4.
There's no discussion Sheik is a great character, with more possibilities than almost (or simply) everyone.
So, when we played Sheik vs MK MU, I feel like is a MU hardly in Sheik favor.
But it was OK. I mean, MK is really powerfull in this game.
With Sheik weight, OoS Shuttle Loop kills me sooner than expected and I was forced to be very carefull about my spacing eveytime I had high %. FSmash is faster than I remembered too (even with the massive ending lag).

After some time (I was winning, but putting much more effort than I imagined it would be) , I switched to Zelda.
There's no discussion Zelda is a limited character. She has imense problems to deal with and some very bad MU's.
But as we play, MK could not be careless. Now the MU looks to be in MK favor, but his gameplay still pretty defensive.
Everything that was a problem for Sheik, still a problem with Zelda, plus edge guard.
Against Zelda, it looks like MK should go ofensive as hell, abusing his mobility.But I don't get it.

It's the player I was against too carefull, or is MK now a very defensive character ?
I mained Pit (and MK after 2012) in Brawl. Pit was a good character, because his MU's were not much polarized.
Even against chars worse than Pit, MU's hardly go for +2 for him. Same goes other way around.
I'm certain to observe that's not much far from MK role in Smash 4 ?

Or MK is really a hard counter and hard countered for a decent margin of characters ?
I'm asking because even when I want Ness as a secundary, I'm not improving with him fast as I wanted.
And I really like MK character and Pit's Brawl playstyle.

 

[Vincent21]

This is Smash 4. Everyone is a defensive character. It's literally Punish: The Game, and that's because the most viable, transcendent gameplan is to get in on the fact that moves actually have end lag in this game, and that landings and mis-spacing is suuuuuper punishable.

I mean, even your main Shiek is just a passive monster who forces the opponent to be the aggressor with needle pressure and then punishes them with like x1234092 fairs off of a grab or other opening for their mistake.

I'd argue this game has very few truly aggressive characters. Even people who primarily just bum rush you like Cpt Falcon get the most mileage out of maintaining a defensive neutral until they see something punishable like a whiffed moved that they can dash grab with extreme prejudice.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is Smash 4. Everyone is a defensive character. It's literally Punish: The Game, and that's because the most viable, transcendent gameplan is to get in on the fact that moves actually have end lag in this game, and that landings and mis-spacing is suuuuuper punishable.

I mean, even your main Shiek is just a passive monster who forces the opponent to be the aggressor with needle pressure and then punishes them with like x1234092 fairs off of a grab or other opening for their mistake.

I'd argue this game has very few truly aggressive characters. Even people who primarily just bum rush you like Cpt Falcon get the most mileage out of maintaining a defensive neutral until they see something punishable like a whiffed moved that they can dash grab with extreme prejudice.

Bowser Jr. is by far the most aggressive character in the game, just for clarification. Almost everything about his playstyle works best when he's the one attacking first. Nobody else comes close.

 

[Vincent21]

Probably because he's one of the few people with an actual approach game not based of fishing for openings or constructed or pressure/baiting.

YOU RIIIIIIIDE and from doing so have a variety of mix-up potential that doubles with a mecha koopa in your hand. I actually just started trying to introduce myself to the character. Very fun.

Dunno how being one of the few offensive outliers in a defensive game does for the guy's mus yet, though. I feel like the fact that he gets to dictate a lot of the pace of his matches is kind of huge. It's sort of reminiscent of Wario's hit and run tactics except that you hit... and continue to do so relentlessly if you break ground on neutral.

 

[warionumbah2]

Too bad this game benefits more from defensive play than full on aggressive play.

 

[Shaya]

MK's play style revolves around dash grab. Everything else is a commitment he dies for.
Hence "defensive/campy" is because he must wait for it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Nope, like Spinphony it does a trivial amount of actual knockback (unlike Cape), which resets helpless state.

Just say no to Nayru's Rejection.

Pretty sure Cape doesn't actually cause any knockback (aside from Gust Cape's wind), what
actually happens is that it briefly reverses the opponent's controls, causing them to move away
if they were moving towards Mario. Spinphony, Nayru's Rejection and Olimar's Dizzy Whistle
(or whatever) are all poor capes because what are is just a weak hit that happens to make the opponent
face the opposite direction... while doing nothing to stop them from simply continuing to hold in your
direction and continue their attack. They don't screw with momentum and controls like Mario's.

 

[Anomilus]

It's in your head, though - this kind of thing has no place being posted in a thread that others read with the hope of absorbing insight and knowledge from others.

Yes. People want insight and knowledge. Knowing that a character does have mobility differences (even if it translate to reduced competitive viability) where people would have you believe otherwise is insight and knowledge. I'm not advocating any character over another. I'm commenting on my being affirmed that Lucina feeling better to use for me is NOT "in my head, though", excuse you. The knowledge still applies to character competitiveness, even if it doesn't necessarily lead to a form of improvement.

...Seriously, why you're gonna make that claim toward me in the face of a video that contradicts the very idea? If you don't believe the video's accurate, better you said that instead. Or if you have an issue with the video even being in this thread, direct your sentiments to the user that posted it.

 

[TriTails]

On the Jiggly talk, I feel she is a secret high tier. Insane aerials (N-air that screws over recovery moves, and B-air), grabs that does 10+%, incredible mobility in the air, and limited-however-not-so-bad-as-most-would-think ground game. She has winning advantage against Luigi (Well, I know that he isn't top tier, but since everyone have been hyping for him since Boss and False happened so...), and seem to screw over combos (Luigi can only get 42% string, tops. And the combo is incredibly hard to pull off), and apparently gimp and smashing anyone in the air like a nut...

How does a ballon can be so stronk I have no clue. Thank God she weights like a ballon too (Lighter than a paper? Now that is something). But unless I am missing something, is she currently criminaly underrated right now?

 

[Antonykun]

Pikachu's customs aren't bad. It's just that his defaults are way too good.

Therefore they are relatively bad

 

[Kofu]

I might be insane, but isn't Quick attack technically an article-based hitbox--like Din's Fire or Explosive Flame? Am I remembering this right?

If so, reflectors very well might stop it...?

I don't pretend to know more about you than this sort of thing, but just because a move is article-based doesn't mean it's reflector bait. Villager's DTilt generates an article (the weed) but as far as I know it can't be reflected. Similarly, Game & Watch has multiple normals that involve articles but can't be reflected. Also Oil Panic, you have no idea the number of people I've seen try to reflect it when it's just a really big hitbox.

 

[Luco]

I'm not quite sure what we're meaning with the term 'article-based' but I will say that Din's fire and possibly explosive flame can be reflected, much like PK Flash. I'm not sure whether a permanent reflector would work, but I've batted PK Flash and (In Brawl) PK Freeze back at at their users before. Din's Fire is the same, although it will never hit Zelda so lawl. PK Flash was funny because it like insta-killed Ness huehuehue. =P

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Yes. People want insight and knowledge. Knowing that a character does have mobility differences (even if it translate to reduced competitive viability) where people would have you believe otherwise is insight and knowledge. I'm not advocating any character over another. I'm commenting on my being affirmed that Lucina feeling better to use for me is NOT "in my head, though", excuse you. The knowledge still applies to character competitiveness, even if it doesn't necessarily lead to a form of improvement.

...Seriously, why you're gonna make that claim toward me in the face of a video that contradicts the very idea? If you don't believe the video's accurate, better you said that instead. Or if you have an issue with the video even being in this thread, direct your sentiments to the user that posted it.

I actually feel the same way about Lucina, for some reason she just feels better for me to use than Marth does. You're not alone bud!

 

[thehard]

Random thought after watching Smash 4-Ever last night: I can't wait for someone to win a large tournament with a custom Mii. Imagine something like Goku or Kanye West or Sakurai posing on the results screen in front of a large crowd...god.

I'm sure someone will start compiling a list of the most popular Miis that place in tournaments, too.

More on topic, Jiggs is a weird character, maybe even bad-weird. Diddy just wrecks her from what I've seen which is unfortunate and guarantees she's not going to become popular any time soon. I imagine the best way of going about that matchup is never leaving the air. And probably crouching a lot when you're on the ground.

@ Thinkaman Vertical kill animations in 4 are based on the velocity the victim is flying at IIRC (faster velocity = less chance of Star/Screen KO)? So I guess to mitigate potential insta-KOs you have to Rest players at early kill percents.

Also, give it to me straight, have you found any success with Sing in 4? (How was it in Brawl for that matter?) It's my favorite bad move.

 

[Terotrous]

Her game-plan is focused around her high damage per hit and early kills. Saying neither is super reliable in high-level play, or any level of play really, for Jiggs means your not playing Jiggs correctly then. As she was built just for that kind of gameplan. Jiggs has fast attacks that deal fairly high damage (most deal 10+%) with fairly good range with moves that excel at edge guarding, which is one of the best ways to get early kills, along with having a move made to kill early and be one of the scariest punishes ever. Frankly if you can't/face against on that can't keep up the high damage and early kill game as Jiggs then you are probably a bad/playing against a bad Jiggs.

Jiggs's raw damage building isn't really especially high. 10% per hit is decent, but it's not out of line with the rest of the cast, particularly not the combo characters who can often convert single hits for like 30%. Edgeguards are also nowhere near as strong in this game as they were in Melee, while they're nice when they happen there are many characters with nonlinear recoveries that require a read to edgeguard.

Rest is indeed a really scary tool but if you miss you're dead, and even the pros miss often. Sometimes you can even be punished if it kills (if they explode off the top rather than getting star KOed), which is stupid. Compare something like Hoo Haw, which has almost comparable power for no risk whatsoever.

Of course you are going to get hit eventually. But my statement still stands. Don't get hit. I don't care what your play-style is but not getting hit should always be a focus of any character unless said character is Lucario wanting to power-up Aura.

Exactly, hence my comment that it's great advice for any character.

It's also basically worthless advice for that reason. Obviously you're going to try your best not to take unnecessary hits, but you're still going to take a few.

But advantages and disadvantages, handicaps, whatever you want to call them, just affect difficulty level. Ergo literally the tier list acts as a scale of difficultly, from "least difficult character to consistently win with" to "most difficult character to consistently win with."

I think the problem here is that there's two interpretations of the word "difficulty". One is "how difficult is it to learn how to play this character decently", while the other is "how difficult is it to win against other high level players using this character". The two definitely do not necessarily correlate. For example, the Ice Climbers in Brawl are very hard to learn how to play well, but if you can use them well you won't have a hard time winning. Conversely, a character like Ryu in Street Fighter is very basic to play but in a number of the games he really has to work hard to win at a high level.

Next, the proliferation of vertical kills in the environment. Brawl has Shuttle Loop and Snake u-tilt. Smash 4 has... basically everything. Diddy uair, Rosalina u-smash and uair, ZSS up-b and uair, Sonic u-smash, Ness uair (and sort of b-throw), Pikachu u-smash, Fox u-smash, Falcon uair and side-b, Yoshi u-smash and uair... It seems like all the scariest kill moves are vertically-focused, and Jiggs is terrified of this world.

This whole post is filled with truth, but I particularly want to highlight this part. Due to being both light and floaty, Jiggs dies absurdly early to vertical KO moves... which is now most KO moves. She literally dies like 30-40% earlier than most of the cast to many attacks.

Isn't Lucario more dangerous to characters who can't kill well or do a lot of damage, but have limited and/or predictable kill moves - I think that was redundant...

So, against say, Fox... Let's go with Duck Hunt,

Yes, the problem is who has trouble killing in this game? Duck Hunt was the only character I was able to come up with when I posted about that earlier. As the game gets more developed, more characters learn how to kill reliable (remember we originally thought Pika had this problem) and thus Lucario gets worse. He also got nerfed hard in 1.0.4.

Honestly I would not be shocked if Lucario is actually low tier now without customs.

And this is my main problem when fighting Lucario; I can't get the kill. I play Yoshi, and while he has many ways to kill, he can't really get to them, outside of using Jab 1 to set up for a smash. Let's say I'm at 60% and the Lucario is at 120%. What a perfect time to kill! So I keep trying to kill him while Lucario throws out one move and kills me. Granted, I can deal with them, it's just an annoyance I have when facing a Lucario.

Lucario can be somewhat scary for characters who lack braindead kill options (like Yoshi), but if you just play patient and don't take big risks you should usually come out ahead. His neutral game really is quite bad. As Yoshi I would just keep throwing eggs until he comes close, then look for a punish opportunity when he gambles on something (usually command grab or counter).

Random thought after watching Smash 4-Ever last night: I can't wait for someone to win a large tournament with a custom Mii. Imagine something like Goku or Kanye West or Sakurai posing on the results screen in front of a large crowd...god.

If I was the TO I would pre-create the Miis using the promotional artwork Miis. Blandness for everybody!

 

[MrGame&Rock]

If I was the TO I would pre-create the Miis using the promotional artwork Miis. Blandness for everybody!

Nah, make it so that when they win, saying "The winner is... Me!" would make sense.
Brawler = Sakurai
Gunner = Xander Mobus
Swordfighter = Some Namco Higher-up

 

[Antonykun]

Nah, make it so that when they win, saying "The winner is... Me!" would make sense.
Brawler = Sakurai
Gunner = Xander Mobus
Swordfighter = Some Namco Higher-up

All official Mii's must be Xander Mobus Miis

In case you guys were curious about Villager's Pocket customs I made a quick graph for the pocket customs

More Pocket Plus
I separated characters into three categories: Those with projectiles that must be pocketed/the reflect barely matters, so Pocket's power buff barely matters so Pocket Plus or Garden would do better,Those with Projectiles worth reflecting, Pocket's 1.9X power Buff is important here, Those with no projectlies/not worth pocketing, Garden is the only one that useful here.

Spoiler: Worth Pocketing

(Big) Mechakoopa
Banana
U-air/Air Shooter
Pk Thunder Variants
Bonus Fruit Variants*
Gyro Variants
Floaty Star Bits
(Pushy) Lloyd Rocket, Timber**
Bike Variants
Header***

Spoiler: Worth Reflecting

Clown Cannon
/ Bow Variants
Gordo Variants
/ Fireball/Pill Variants
(Everything?)
XXL Chef
Water Shuriken
Bow/Boomerang Variants, Meteor Bomb
Aura Sphere Variants
Side B Variants, F-smash, D-air
Shot Put
Charge Shot, Super Missle
Gale Strike, Shuriken of Light, Chakram
Pk Fire Variants
Turnip Variants
Thunder (jolt) Variants except Thunder Burst
Laser Variants
El/ArcThunder Variants, Arcfire (+)
Shooting Star Bits
Charge Shot, Super Missile
Spring
Bow/Boomerang/Bomb Variants
Slingshot, F-smash, Dash Attack, Timber**, (Pushy) Lloyd Rocket
Sun Salutation, Header***
Phantom
Paralyzer

Spoiler: No Projectiles Worth Pocketing

/




Star Bits

*If you are folding Bonus Fruit, Pac-Man can't spawn another but if it is in the pocket he can spawn another.
** Just holding Timber is intimidating but with Pocket it is a OHKO at 0%
*** If you have Header in your pocket WFT can't spawn another but you cannot refresh it and the reflected Header hurts a lot.

Hopefully this might turn some heads on Villager's amazing sidegrades for Pocket.

 

[warriorman222]

Nah, make it so that when they win, saying "The winner is... Me!" would make sense.
Brawler = Sakurai
Gunner = Xander Mobus
Swordfighter = Hitoshi Hagiwara

Aah, the joys of google.

But seriously that'd be great.

@ Antonykun The moment when you borrow their Clown Cannonball, and they come to the dire realization that you now have a 30 second KO punch projectile, that. doesn't go away on hit, while you're using a character that racks damage like it's going out of style.

Or Take their timber. you basically can OHKO them or break their shield.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If I was the TO I would pre-create the Miis using the promotional artwork Miis. Blandness for everybody!

Way ahead of you there.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Aah, the joys of google.

But seriously that'd be great.

Thank you, person who isn't lazy like I am :D (absolutely no sarcasm there)

 

[Antonykun]

Way ahead of you there.

back in the whole 2222/3333 Swordfighter stuff I ran Guest B mii (Aka Promotional Swordfighter)
Oh yeah @ Darklink401 said you can pocket Pikmin I can't disprove him sooo halp.

 

[Terotrous]

Way ahead of you there.

Actually not because I had the promotional Miis set up on my system before the game even came out!

They're hliariously simple to make, too. Brawler is really close to being the default male Mii.

 

[warriorman222]

Actually not because I had the promotional Miis set up on my system before the game even came out!

They're hliariously simple to make, too. Brawler is really close to being the default male Mii.

All of them are slightly edited Guest Miis.

 

[Darklink401]

back in the whole 2222/3333 Swordfighter stuff I ran Guest B mii (Aka Promotional Swordfighter)
Oh yeah @ Darklink401 said you can pocket Pikmin I can't disprove him sooo halp.

Oh I tested it out. You can pocket them, but sadly, Olimar CAN pull out the same color one >:

 

[BlackNitrous1]

IMO Mega Man underrated

 

[wedl!!]

IMO Mega Man underrated

do you want a medal for being such an adventurous underdog

 

[Nu~]

IMO Mega Man underrated

Yeah, we're past the 3ds smash era already.

 

[BlackNitrous1]

wtf no just stating a fact on a "Competitive character impressions" blog bro

 

[Kofu]

Yeah, we're past the 3ds smash era already.

Yeah, I made that post like, 7 pages ago.

I think that Mega Man is a sleeper top 10 character TBH. He can just do so much with his kit. I'm probably a little off, but he is an excellent character who will only be limited in representation because of his odd style.

 

[BlackNitrous1]

Yeah, we're past the 3ds smash era already.

meant in wii u

 

[wedl!!]

meant in wii u

once wiiu came out everyone realized mega is good

speaking of him who does he even lose to wtf

 

[BlackNitrous1]

once wiiu came out everyone realized mega is good

speaking of him who does he even lose to wtf

villager and fox seem to wreck him pretty consistently

 

[Spirst]

villager and fox seem to wreck him pretty consistently

I've always heard the Villager mains say Mega Man is a pain in the ass for them. Pocket isn't as useful outside of the fsmash and smart Mega Mans aren't going to be throwing that out in obvious scenarios. Villager's spacing game also isn't as effective since Mega Man can continuously pressure him with his own projectile game. Lemons>lloid rocket in terms of annoyance. As for Fox, I have no idea.

The main characters I've heard of Mega Man losing to are Sheik, Yoshi, and possibly MK/Wario.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I totally believe it. People are always like "You mind as well use Marth...", and I don't simply 'cause Lucina feels better to move around with. Marth feels floatier and looser when I control him. Lucina feels tighter, and that's enough of a difference for me.

Well I don't see how it would be a good thing thing have your movement feel more restricted.