Character Competitive Impressions

[Bob da Bob]

Bowser Jr. Mechakoopa can also follow Bowser Jr.

The player throws Mechakoopa _behind_ himself and then charges while Mechakoopa covers slower attacks. Koopaling's dash-attack for example can be timed such that Mechakoopa covers the cooldown, making it a safe attack even on block.

Mechakoopa in front allows you to charge while negating your opponent's projectiles (it seems to clash often, negating one of your opponent's projectiles for a safer approach). On the other hand, Mechakoopa behind allows you to take risky attacks (ie: Dash Attacks, SH DAir approaches, even FSmash) while Mechakoopa covers your cooldown.

I feel like Bowser Jr's strategy is forcing opponents to jump, and then beating the opponent in the air. Bowser Jr.'s aerial hitboxes are kind of insane.

I would agree, Bowser Jr.'s aerials have gigantic hitboxes and they also do pretty good damage and are great for combos, they also can kill at a good enough percentage. If your opponent might feel uncomfortable picking up the mechakoopa because they are afraid they might get hit instead, then they would probably jump over it and that would be the time for bowser jr to do some aerials and rack up lots of damage. If used correctly then mechakoopa is a great tool for stage control and combos, probably even better than diddy's bananas IMO

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I would agree, Bowser Jr.'s aerials have gigantic hitboxes and they also do pretty good damage and are great for combos, they also can kill at a good enough percentage. If your opponent might feel uncomfortable picking up the mechakoopa because they are afraid they might get hit instead, then they would probably jump over it and that would be the time for bowser jr to do some aerials and rack up lots of damage. If used correctly then mechakoopa is a great tool for stage control and combos, probably even better than diddy's bananas IMO

That's a bold claim...

 

[HeavyLobster]

That's a bold claim...

They work very differently. MechaKoopas are significantly trickier to use correctly and have a number of advantages and disadvantages compared to bananas. Both do a good job of setting up their strong punish and combo games. I do think bananas are better because it's easier to pluck and throw them until the opponent gets hit than it is to properly set up a MechaKoopa trap. It's hard to say because Mechs are weird and not many people have really explored what you can do with them.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

They work very differently. MechaKoopas are significantly trickier to use correctly and have a number of advantages and disadvantages compared to bananas. Both do a good job of setting up their strong punish and combo games. I do think bananas are better because it's easier to pluck and throw them until the opponent gets hit than it is to properly set up a MechaKoopa trap. It's hard to say because Mechs are weird and not many people have really explored what you can do with them.

if mecha koopa's moved a bit slower on at the begining of there walk i would have confidence in saying there equal to banana's since it would give jr time to pick it up quick enough.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Dabuz, 2nd place winner of Apex, just created his own tier list for the game. You can find it here: http://www.eventhubs.com/images/201...ins-why-his-super-smash-bros-wii-u-tier-list/

I

Definitely raise an eyebrow at some of these.

-I have yet to see any real potential from Peach. Peach will always strike me as a niche character who can be pretty good but gets almost totally shut down by some characters.

-From what I hear people say, they consider Luigi to have the best parts of Mario and Dr. Mario. He's scary good in the right hands and is capable of a lot of tricks and trump cards that Mario simply isn't.

-Zelda seems really high given how she's kept a lot of same weaknesses from Brawl and lost Sheik.

-I think a lot of people outright discredit Bowser Jr. and Wii Fit Trainer. I do feel like Bowser Jr. suffers from "Special Snowflake Syndrome" like Brawl Yoshi and Sonic but I feel like he has better tools and more reliable set ups than they did. He's probably not much better than listed here though but if Jigglypuff is higher with all her crippling faults... As for Wii Fit Trainer, she's got a lot going for her. Fantastic and tricky projectiles, two air stalls, one momentum stopper, deceptive hit boxes, the ability to health and raise her attack power, aerials with fairly little landing lag, a jab that buries people, great recovery, etc. I can see her being like Brawl's Lucario: a great character that not a lot of people devote that much time to because of her "weirder" aspects.

- I don't think Dedede is that low and I think part of the problem is that a lot of Brawl Dedede players are still suffering from a sort of "God is dead" moment because of how much his playstyle has changed. He lost some of his offstage strengths and, of course, the almighty sit on your face combo, but I feel like he's gained better tools for stage control and more grab set ups. Like Bowser Jr, probably not significantly better but not a total loss either.

 

[meleebrawler]

Bowser Jr. Mechakoopa can also follow Bowser Jr.

The player throws Mechakoopa _behind_ himself and then charges while Mechakoopa covers slower attacks. Koopaling's dash-attack for example can be timed such that Mechakoopa covers the cooldown, making it a safe attack even on block.

Mechakoopa in front allows you to charge while negating your opponent's projectiles (it seems to clash often, negating one of your opponent's projectiles for a safer approach). On the other hand, Mechakoopa behind allows you to take risky attacks (ie: Dash Attacks, SH DAir approaches, even FSmash) while Mechakoopa covers your cooldown.

I feel like Bowser Jr's strategy is forcing opponents to jump, and then beating the opponent in the air. Bowser Jr.'s aerial hitboxes are kind of insane.

To say nothing of how dropping them behind you near the edge is great anti-grab insurance.

 

[mimgrim]

but if Jigglypuff is higher with all her crippling faults...

*blinks*

I'm legit confused here. The only major weakness I can really think of is her extremely light-weight combined with her extreme floatiness. But I dunno if I would go so far as to call it crippling and I can't think of anything else that is a big weakness to her while you make it sound like she has tons of big weaknesses. I just don't really see it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Forced to rely on aerial footsies cuz her ground game is butt is a pretty huge flaw. Granted her aerial footsies are unrivaled, but it does make her a straight forward character.

 

[HeroMystic]

-From what I hear people say, they consider Luigi to have the best parts of Mario and Dr. Mario. He's scary good in the right hands and is capable of a lot of tricks and trump cards that Mario simply isn't.

Luigi doesn't have the best parts of Mario. This comparison comes up a lot because they're the Ryu/Ken of the series, but Mario and Luigi play quite differently. Luigi wishes he had Mario's mobility and solid traction while Mario wishes he had Luigi's damage per hit and kill set-ups.
Luigi and Doc are a much closer comparison, but I feel this won't be the case in the future. Some players play a very defensive Doc while others play extremely aggro with him. Suffice to say Doc is still being explored on how he should be played, but in terms of statistics Luigi does seem to be a straight upgrade from Doc, even at the end of it all they still end up playing quite differently.

That said, I'm surprised Luigi isn't ranked higher. There isn't a lot of characters better than him and he's top contender of having the best reward off of hit confirms in the game since D-throw is an extremely reliable set-up for virtually anything. He's certainly better than Ness, Mario, and Peach.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Dabuz's list seems...

...Okay, Bowser that far above Ike, Bowser Jr., and Lucina? Yeah, no. Bowser is awful.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bowser is certainly superior to Lucina. Not his son or Ike though.

 

[mimgrim]

Forced to rely on aerial footsies cuz her ground game is butt is a pretty huge flaw. Granted her aerial footsies are unrivaled, but it does make her a straight forward character.

I feel like her bad ground game is exaggerated to a degree. I mean yea it is no where near as good as her air game but she isn't completely doomed on the ground. I still wouldn't call it a bad enough weakness to be crippling and being straightforward isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Luigi doesn't have the best parts of Mario. This comparison comes up a lot because they're the Ryu/Ken of the series, but Mario and Luigi play quite differently. Luigi wishes he had Mario's mobility and solid traction while Mario wishes he had Luigi's damage per hit and kill set-ups.
Luigi and Doc are a much closer comparison, but I feel this won't be the case in the future. Some players play a very defensive Doc while others play extremely aggro with him. Suffice to say Doc is still being explored on how he should be played, but in terms of statistics Luigi does seem to be a straight upgrade from Doc, even at the end of it all they still end up playing quite differently.

That said, I'm surprised Luigi isn't ranked higher. There isn't a lot of characters better than him and he's top contender of having the best reward off of hit confirms in the game since D-throw is an extremely reliable set-up for virtually anything. He's certainly better than Ness, Mario, and Peach.

i dont know if i agree. and while luigi definitly gets better damage. i feel like his mobility really does set him back enough that mario would be a more confident choice. luigi can out right lose to simply campy playstyles due to over all slowness. even his jump in my personal opinion goes upward slowly.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Forced to rely on aerial footsies cuz her ground game is butt is a pretty huge flaw. Granted her aerial footsies are unrivaled, but it does make her a straight forward character.

Her ground game is underrepresented. It is poor relative to her air gem. Its just meh in the context of the overall cast.

 

[Shaya]

Jigglypuff jab and down tilt though :>
I think DA kills too, right?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Jigglypuff jab and down tilt though :>
I think DA kills too, right?

correct.

 

[Bob da Bob]

That's a bold claim...

The bananas are very good but I think the mechakoopas are better because firstly they move around, they are a walking threat so your opponent would have a harder time avoiding it while it is on the ground. If you like picking up the bananas/mechakoopas I would say bananas are better because they are easier to pick up and when you throw them it trips the opponent and you can easily set up a combo. But mechakoopas are also a good start up to combos and also they are a great combo breaker, if your stuck in a combo on the ground and you have a mechakoopa out then there is a chance for you mechakoopa to hit the opponent and stop his combo. But this is all just my opinion, I do believe though that both the bananas and mechakoopas are very useful tools.

 

[Lavani]

Jiggs' frame 9 utilt kills almost as well as her usmash and has next to no end lag, too.

 

[NairWizard]

Luigi doesn't have the best parts of Mario. This comparison comes up a lot because they're the Ryu/Ken of the series, but Mario and Luigi play quite differently. Luigi wishes he had Mario's mobility and solid traction while Mario wishes he had Luigi's damage per hit and kill set-ups.
Luigi and Doc are a much closer comparison, but I feel this won't be the case in the future. Some players play a very defensive Doc while others play extremely aggro with him. Suffice to say Doc is still being explored on how he should be played, but in terms of statistics Luigi does seem to be a straight upgrade from Doc, even at the end of it all they still end up playing quite differently.

That said, I'm surprised Luigi isn't ranked higher. There isn't a lot of characters better than him and he's top contender of having the best reward off of hit confirms in the game since D-throw is an extremely reliable set-up for virtually anything. He's certainly better than Ness, Mario, and Peach.

I don't think that Luigi is clearly better than Ness, Mario, and Peach. Maybe Mario.



That said, I just swept a local tournament this weekend with Luigi, and I have a few observations on the character now that I've played him for a while.

1) Luigi doesn't get destroyed by zoning. I'd actually put the Villager matchup at 50:50 or even in Luigi's favor. It's too one-dimensional to look at his airspeed and say that zoning is an autowin, because just as Luigi has trouble getting in on zoners, zoners have trouble getting out once Luigi gets in. Seriously. Unless you can grab Luigi, his aerials are too fast, his f-air is too big, and his jab and grab are too good (just look at his grab speed + range) for most characters to get him away quickly. And zoners almost universally have bad grabs. Pacman and Villager and Link/Toon Link have one heck of a time getting Luigi away once he's in.

Duck Hunt and Rosalina have good grabs, but Luigi deals with the can and Luma quite well, so those matchups are probably 50:50 too just because their zoning isn't as effective against him.

Of the zoners, Megaman is the only one with both a good grab and tools that can keep Luigi out consistently, because of big, disjointed aerials. Fireballs are canceled by pellets, too. Still, that's one out of many matchups.

Walling is still a problem for Luigi, but Brawl Meta Knight and Brawl Marth don't exist any more; you won't be getting walled out in quite the same way you would have in Brawl (overpowered by huge and possibly transcendent disjoints, that is). Instead you have guys like Mario, Diddy, and Pikachu to an extent. Luigi has a much easier time getting in on these guys due to his disproportionately huge, 9% damage f-air.

2) We are in a grab-based metagame right now, and probably will be for a long time to come, maybe even forever without patches, and Luigi is one of the best characters for such a metagame because the best way to deal with your opponent's grab is to grab him first. And if it's a question of grabbing vs. being grabbed, Luigi wins, because even if it's 50:50 Luigi getting a grab yields more reward than anyone else getting a grab.

3) Master perfect pivoting, all you budding Luigis. His perfect pivot sends him really far, and lets him get in on guys like Diddy spacing f-airs with no problem. It's actually kind of hilarious. Luigi is a fairly technical character (jumpless cyclone, learning DI patterns), all things considered, so if you already main Luigi, you should invest the time into consistently landing perfect pivot tilts and jabs. Luigi's perfect pivot to jab may just be the most beautiful thing in the game.

 

[Nobie]

Of the zoners, Megaman is the only one with both a good grab and tools that can keep Luigi out consistently, because of big, disjointed aerials. Fireballs are canceled by pellets, too. Still, that's one out of many matchups.

Do you think Mega Man's superior horizontal movement through the air compared to Luigi is also a significant factor? I find that Mega Man fading away while shooting pellets can be a real nuisance to Luigi because you have the super quick projectiles on top of being able to move out of range of Luigi's aerials.

 

[NairWizard]

Do you think Mega Man's superior horizontal movement through the air compared to Luigi is also a significant factor? I find that Mega Man fading away while shooting pellets can be a real nuisance to Luigi because you have the super quick projectiles on top of being able to move out of range of Luigi's aerials.

It's many things. Megaman's grab is actually super fast, his dash grab in particular, and once Luigi gets in he often gets grabbed and tossed away. Then you have better airspeed, and disjoints, and huge, quick aerials in b-air and f-air. Luigi has trouble landing against Megaman's up-air as well. You're right, though; pellets are annoying.

I wouldn't say that Megaman bodies Luigi 80:20 or something, though, because Megaman in disadvantage is still not great and Luigi in advantage is excellent. I would say 65:35 Megaman. Bad, not unwinnable.

 

[HeroMystic]

i dont know if i agree. and while luigi definitly gets better damage. i feel like his mobility really does set him back enough that mario would be a more confident choice. luigi can out right lose to simply campy playstyles due to over all slowness. even his jump in my personal opinion goes upward slowly.

Luigi's mobility does set him back, but if he had better mobility he'd be top 3 easily. Hell, just having stronger traction would raise him up quite a few spots, because that would mean you would have no choice but to play super safe against him. With the way how he is now, a number of characters can get away with being reckless on his shield because there's some things he can't punish otherwise, like Shulk can spam F-Smash on Luigi in Buster Mode and he'll slide so far away that he couldn't do anything about it.

So the thing about Luigi is you have to minimize his weaknesses through fireballs/Cyclone and relying less on shield (unless powershielding) and more on spotdodge and air dodge. Everyone can look at Luigi and go "his mobility is really bad just camp him", but Luigi does have the tools available to him to get in an opponent's personal space and deal a lot of burst damage before it resets to neutral.

 

[NairWizard]

like Shulk can spam F-Smash on Luigi in Buster Mode and he'll slide so far away that he couldn't do anything about it.
.

Perfect pivot shield, you won't get pushed far enough back not to be able to punish it, I believe. Will test this tonight. I'm fairly confident that perfect pivoting removes most of Luigi's traction issues. The mechanic benefits Luigi more than just about everyone.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Jigglypuff jab and down tilt though :>
I think DA kills too, right?

Her ground game in general is hard hitting. Lack I checked in exchange for slower start-up she gains more offensive power on the ground relative to Kirby who has the start-up to box with people.

 

[Espy Rose]

To be more specific, that spring to dair autocancel is rather inflexible. Using the spring robs
Sonic of his other specials and his jump if he didn't use it already, and there needs to be a lot of
space for the autocancel to be successful. If he misses his chance for that, then all the opponent
needs to is chase after Sonic and shield whatever aerial he might try before punishing. Somewhat more
difficult if you're slow on the ground and had to deal with the falling spring, but it can be done.

Sonic loses his jump regardless after he uses upB. It's not like Megaman's or G&W's. The game also steals his double jump during certain scenarios.
Sonic ain't top 5. Top 10 is far more reasonable. People just need to learn his ins and outs but don't for some reason. I suppose they just don't like winning.

 

[Antonykun]

*blinks*

I'm legit confused here. The only major weakness I can really think of is her extremely light-weight combined with her extreme floatiness. But I dunno if I would go so far as to call it crippling and I can't think of anything else that is a big weakness to her while you make it sound like she has tons of big weaknesses. I just don't really see it.

If you want to camp jiggs you can get away with it. Her grab is godawful and yields no rewards.

 

[Thinkaman]

If you want to camp jiggs you can get away with it. Her grab is godawful and yields no rewards.

If by godawful you mean "is the fastest grab in the game", and by "no reward" you mean "Has a 3% pummel, 4 10% throws, and puts the opponents into the air while playing as Jigglypuff", then yes!

 

[deepseadiva]

If by godawful you mean "is the fastest grab in the game", and by "no reward" you mean "Has a 3% pummel, 4 10% throws, and puts the opponents into the air while playing as Jigglypuff", then yes!

Whaaaat I didn't know these things. Might pick her up. Especially now that Rest is back.

 

[mimgrim]

If you want to camp jiggs you can get away with it. Her grab is godawful and yields no rewards.

Firstly - Jigg's grab is far from god-awful. Fastest in the game I think, actually, along with a good pummel and high damaging throws that still give positional advatadge (which is somethign I think people de-value to much).

Secondly - Camping out Jiggs is not easy due to her weaving ability which allows her to avoid projectiles and attacks quite well along with being a pretty campy character herself due to the way she plays.

 

[Thinkaman]

Whaaaat I didn't know these things. Might pick her up. Especially now that Rest is back.

To be fair, a lot of people have 6/8/9 frame grabs/dash-grabs/-pivot grabs respectively (the fastest values), and a few others do also have all 3. But it's still great, and her grab range isn't poor.

And yeah, you can only camp Jiggs in Soviet Russia.

 

[Conda]

The increased strength in shield-breaking abilities does pose a potential problem, no? DK and Marth should have a field day against her on-paper.

 

[L7 Zero Cool]

Still learning the ropes as far as competitive smash. Are customs still on pace to be tourney legal soon?

I notice dabuz has Ike at the bottom tier which was a bit jarring. I main him solely because I feel he's viable this time and much better than his brawl version. I'm hearing solid mid tier without customs and upper half with them. Was the Ike hype exaggerated ?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

The increased strength in shield-breaking abilities does pose a potential problem, no? DK and Marth should have a field day against her on-paper.

Can't shield if you're in the air lol.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Still learning the ropes as far as competitive smash. Are customs still on pace to be tourney legal soon?

I notice dabuz has Ike at the bottom tier which was a bit jarring. I main him solely because I feel he's viable this time and much better than his brawl version. I'm hearing solid mid tier without customs and upper half with them. Was the Ike hype exaggerated ?

Dabuz has/had no clue about Ike.

Happens a lot.

 

[mimgrim]

The increased strength in shield-breaking abilities does pose a potential problem, no? DK and Marth should have a field day against her on-paper.

Don't shield?

Like I said, Jiggs is a weaver, so, she is better off avoiding attacks by weaving in and out from the air then limiting herself in the shield.

 

[NairWizard]

But none of that changes the fact that Jigglypuff dittos are night-terror-inducing torture mechanisms probably used in high-profile military inquisitions. I lost nearly 24 minutes of my existence (and probably my innocence) watching 3 matches of 3-stock Puff dittos in Losers Finals of a tournament; for the rest of the week I randomly awoke in the middle of the night to sounds of "Jiggly!" and "Puff!" and couldn't look at my Wii U without remembering the trauma.

 

[Luigi player]

If by godawful you mean "is the fastest grab in the game", and by "no reward" you mean "Has a 3% pummel, 4 10% throws, and puts the opponents into the air while playing as Jigglypuff", then yes!

Actually, Wario alone has the fastest pivot grab in the game. (frame 8)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Forced to rely on aerial footsies cuz her ground game is butt is a pretty huge flaw. Granted her aerial footsies are unrivaled, but it does make her a straight forward character.

She has a very good Dashgrab and Dash Attack, and Jab isn't terrible either. Slow walk/run speed hurts, but I don't think her ground game is bad. If anything a lot of characters actually have to respect it especially when you factor her incredibly low crouch and landing animation. Her Smashes and tilts are mostly pointless though.

 

[HeroMystic]

Still learning the ropes as far as competitive smash. Are customs still on pace to be tourney legal soon?

I notice dabuz has Ike at the bottom tier which was a bit jarring. I main him solely because I feel he's viable this time and much better than his brawl version. I'm hearing solid mid tier without customs and upper half with them. Was the Ike hype exaggerated ?

I only suspect that Dabuz has Ike in the "Bad" tier because his match-ups against the popular tournament characters are mostly uphill battles with Ike getting rofl'd vs Diddy. Otherwise there's no reason to have him that low.

 

[Nobie]

But none of that changes the fact that Jigglypuff dittos are night-terror-inducing torture mechanisms probably used in high-profile military inquisitions. I lost nearly 24 minutes of my existence (and probably my innocence) watching 3 matches of 3-stock Puff dittos in Losers Finals of a tournament; for the rest of the week I randomly awoke in the middle of the night to sounds of "Jiggly!" and "Puff!" and couldn't look at my Wii U without remembering the trauma.

I'm pretty sure that's just what happens with Jigglypuff dittos in any game, including Melee.