Character Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

Sonic is definitely in the Top 10 at the very least. The very least; like, we're talking scraping the barrel for ****ing reasoning.

There's no question that he's a good character right now.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Saturn_]

It's disappointing that the meta seems to be shaping up as 'fast = good, slow = bad' but Dabuz's list has zero slow, big, heavy characters near the top. Wario and Megaman are probably the beefiest fighters in the top half of his list.

 

[Yonder]

Sonic's damage output is absolutely insane out of spindash attacks. That and great ground mobility + a versatile recovery for getting back on stage and gimps along with a killing B throw is why I think he's top.

 

[Saturn_]

Lucario loses the whole match over vs Sheik. He is ONLY a threat after he gets bodied. And in that case one mistake could spell death for either character. I don't see how he wins. Unless wins means he gets his *** handed to him then gets a lucky force palm.

Reminds me of Sagat vs Gouki in Vanilla SF4. Sagat had all the comeback potential in the world and Gouki had all the options. People gave it to Sagat at first but then people realized he just didnt have the tools to limit Gouki at all.

I still like Sheik and Captain Falcon over Diddy Kong. I think those two win that matchup.

 

[Kofu]

Sonic's damage output is absolutely insane out of spindash attacks. That and great ground mobility + a versatile recovery for getting back on stage and gimps along with a killing B throw is why I think he's top.

He's got a killing FThrow too for those high platform kills.

Spin Dash and Spin Charge are really just icing on the cake for Sonic; it's his excellent movement specs and great range that really make him a potent threat. I think he's still be top 10 (maybe not top 5 though) without Spin Dash.

I just thank Sakurai that his dash attack has miserable damage output.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Dabuz, 2nd place winner of Apex, just created his own tier list for the game. You can find it here: http://www.eventhubs.com/images/201...ins-why-his-super-smash-bros-wii-u-tier-list/ He says characters in the same row are in no particular order, just to let you know

Personally, even though I'm not nearly on the same level as he is, I can't help but disagree with a whole lot of it. Recently, I've become more active in the competitive scene and have attended more tournaments with decent placings lately, and I wanted to come here and join the party and take part in these discussions, I've been missing out on all the fun and I think I've been meaning to come in sooner or later. I'm a little busy with my homework right now, (I'm slacking off ) but for now I'll just say these:

I honestly don't think is Top 5 or even Top 10 in this game, and if he is, he is really low in that 10. I definitely think he's above-average, but Top 5 is a huge stretch if you ask me.

I don't find , , , or (actually, I think Mario is an overrated character in general, I feel he'll eventually slip down a little once people get used to playing him overtime) as good as he ranked them either.

, , , , and even all have more potential than given credit for in my eyes. I can see these guys getting better overtime personally.

While I don't disagree that and are a little below average (without custom moves anyway), they can't really be Bottom bad, can they? I don't buy that Kirby, Zelda, and Ganon are better characters than they are; imo those guys are even worse.

I don't know how does honestly or how I feel about hi, his matchup spread seems weird. I don't think he's above average though.

Places where I definitely agree with him though are with Lucina, Diddy, Sheik, Pikachu, and a few others.

These of course are just my own opinions though, and like I said I am still learning the ropes myself so my opinions are all very questionable and probably not credible, so I wouldn't expect anyone here to agree with me on most any of these. Still, if you want to talk with me about it anyway though, I got all day tomorrow , gonna slack off from homework from again at the library.


What do you guys think of it btw?

Bowser Jr. and Ike are definitely not bottom tier at all, and are both solid mid-tiers. Zelda I feel probably is bottom, and I hate to admit that he might be right about D3. I don't trust Falco or Doc, but I can't say for sure that either is bottom. Zard seems fine where he is on that list but I could see him getting better.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Bowser Jr. and Ike are definitely not bottom tier at all, and are both solid mid-tiers. Zelda I feel probably is bottom, and I hate to admit that he might be right about D3. I don't trust Falco or Doc, but I can't say for sure that either is bottom. Zard seems fine where he is on that list but I could see him getting better.

seeing ganon in mid tier just puts a smile on my face Xd

 

[HeavyLobster]

seeing ganon in mid tier just puts a smile on my face Xd

He's still technically ranked in the bottom 1/4th in the game, sadly, and he still has some very clear limitations.

 

[Funkermonster]

I'd like to know the reasoning behind this.

Well for one, Sonic's options for landing back on the ground are absolutely terrible, and its not that hard to punish him if he needs to do so, and they're all beaten a lot of anti air moves or have annoying landing lag. He could autocancel his Dair from a Spring in Brawl, but that is not as reliable in this game due to the increased autocancel height. I mean, you can still do it at all and retreating to the ledge is also an option, but they aren't going to keep you safe from absolutely everything and are still quite punishable. In a game where landing back is already dangerous enough, this can be really frustrating to deal with and he doesn't have too many options to douse it. I have however, played enough of Sonic (as you might tell by my mains under my profile) to know that he's great at punishing landings himself

And for someone who's the fastest thing alive, Sonic's approach options are ass, probably his greatest weakness aside from his landing options. Even though he's got the best ground mobility in the game, Sonic's raw approach options are really not that great and if your opponent can read what you're going to do you won't have a very easy time getting in. His aerials are usable enough in their own right, but are not safe on block at all. His spindash has awful priority and will get beaten out by a lot of things, so you got to use your mixups and hope your opponent guesses wrong. Sonic's dash grab is amazing, but of course people will catch onto that and you can't rely on it. He's also still got the problem with Brawl Sonic in that he has no (good) projectile attack and is forced to approach those who do, and dealing with projectiles as Sonic isn't the funnest as long as opponents know what they're doing.

That said, Sonic relies a lot on fake outs and the many options he has out of his spindash (not actually using the spindash as an attack) just to move into an advantage position against opponents, to scare people and force them to react before you can go in. Using Raw Approaches is mostly just a mixup as Sonic, and they aren't really good enough for him to depend on. You know something is wrong when your best approach is basically pretending to approach. On one hand, you could argue that it's what make Sonic so scary, being unpredictable and making people pay for bad reactions. But on the other hand, its also what makes him not scary, since if your opponent knows what you're going to do or if they have great projectiles, they're going to deny your attempts at getting in and make life hard in general, being predictable can cost you the game. This trait acts as a double edge sword: Playing mindgames on people and forcing them to react is great and all, but lacking an actual good raw approach can work against you if your opponent knows the MU. And personally, I think Sonic relies a little too much on fake outs.

Don't get me wrong, Sonic is still a great character and maybe he is at least Top 10. But Top 5? No way! At least he's not on the level of or at least, I just don't buy it.

Sonic's damage output is absolutely insane out of spindash attacks. That and great ground mobility + a versatile recovery for getting back on stage and gimps along with a killing B throw is why I think he's top.

It also has laughable priority and can be beaten out or clanked with a lot of attacks. Literally, the priority on his spindash is stupid, and when people realize they can stop it with a lot of moves, even a jab or a tilt. I agree that his damage racking is amazing, but you can't ignore that it can be halted if you see it coming.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...

No.

You're forgetting the fact that Sonic has great buttons, the option to reset nearly any situation he finds himself in back to neutral, and his **** can actually be hard to punish, Spindashes and all, especially if the Sonic player utilizes Sonic like a walking running projectile.

Smooth Criminal

 

[HeroMystic]

It's true that Sonic's Spin Dashes have poor priority, which is why great Sonics like 6WX and Espy uses them to punish poor options made by their opponents and not just to approach.

The problem is you're actually underselling Sonic's main component, his mix-ups. Sonic's strongest tool is actually his mobility. He has the fastest running speed and pretty good air speed (tied with Mario for 7th best I believe), and can manipulate his speeds with his moveset. That is why he can approach and mix-up.

This whole game is about making reads on your opponent and punishing mistakes. Sonic is perhaps the best character for doing this with, and that's why he does so well in tournament.

 

[Sinister Slush]

In the tournaments that actual Sonic mains show up in at least. Though that can be said about most characters not named Diddy Rosalina or ZSS

 

[Luigi player]

What I'm amazed about of Sonic at the moment is his bair. What a wonderful move. It beats out almost anything and at least trades with anything else (except for some special cases).

I was often annoyed by Sheiks bouncing fish beating Diddys fair und sideB kick and other aerials, like what the hell?! You get no other choice than trying to avoid it... but Sonic can just trade with that with his bair (of course you have to be ready for the move which isn't that difficult). Against most aerials Sonics bair just flat out wins if spaced correctly. And when it hits you get a satisfying feel. Like "whoom, now that really hit them hard!"

Not to mention it can even KO. What a great KO move since it's pretty safe as long as you don't land with the huge amount of landinglag it gets.

At first I hated his new bair, because I often tried to land with it since I was used to that from Brawl, but now I love this move.

It's really fun to jump around with Sonic and his fair / uair / bair while fastfalling at the right times to not get any landinglag.
Retreating bair can still be difficult to punish even with the landinglag if Sonic has to land on the ground (mostly after he used his upB).


Besides his bair, his run is really good, and I'm talking about the turnaround, not the maxrunspeed which is obviously great. Expecting a probable spotdodge from your opponent and a pivot grab wouldn't connect since Sonic runs past your (probably shielding) opponent too fast? Just turn around and grab them after! And Sonics grabrange is really good now for Smash4 standards, it's incredible after you played some other characters (very few (nontethers) even have decent grabrange with acceptable speed).

Well, these are just 2 things that I found out recently and like about Sonic.


He definitely seems like a top 5 candidate to me (I feel he's #4 atm), with a pretty good matchup against Diddy Kong as well.
He can gimp Diddy with springs (not that it's that easy to hit with), he's not scared while he and Diddy are grounded at neutral, since he can just move around so quickly + good grabrange (while others fear the bananatoss, dashgrab or fair). He resets bad situations more easily than other characters, can punish easy and hard (with his speed), and his bair eats through Diddys aerial attacks, etc.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sonic's options to land from the air are bad? If that's true, who has good options to land from the air? Jigglypuff and no one else?

Spring to dair is perfectly reliable; my crewmate does it to me all of the time and it's crazy obnoxious especially since if he does it right the spring itself covers the movement of the dair (which is hard to read in the first place since Sonic can b-reverse the spring to dair in either direction very fast). Spring itself gives him a reset button on coming down since he can act as he falls; if Sonic is about to fall into a really bad spot, he just uses the spring and then tries again. We play with customs, and falling on people with Hammer Spin Dash is a big thing; it always comes from these weird, crazy angles and it's extremely punishing when it hits since Sonic just does a jump cancel -> smash for easy money every time he tags you with that unless you're literally at 0% and are mashing with ridiculous fury. Homing Attack is an incredible mix-up as you're falling toward people; people try to put hitboxes in Sonic's way, Sonic uses Homing Attack to stall himself in the air, your attack whiffs and gets instantly whiff punished by Homing Attack which also happens to hit very hard. Even if Sonic chooses to do none of that stuff, his air control really isn't bad and all five of his aerials are legitimately good aerials that give him diverse options to come down safely, and if Sonic does a neutral landing you can't exactly punish his positioning due to his run speed: you have to put those hitboxes out before he finishes coming down to have any pressure at all out of the situation (which is of course generally risky to do in light of Homing Attack!).

Sonic is a top tier character; I have pretty much no doubt about this fact at all. His priority is generally pretty low, but he moves so fast and has so many good moves that he can easily mitigate that. He's hard to block, impossible to zone, and he has tons of really good, practical ways to convert into early kills between his amazing throws, his stupid strong usmash, his incredible off-stage game, and his general well rounded set of extra options to kill at realistic percents if none of the headline options work out. He does lots of damage with pretty much everything, and he can easily come at any time from any angle. He's not even light, and he has a great recovery so all around his survivability is above average. The only real downsides Sonic has in my eyes are low priority and a pretty lacking platform game. The former just means that it's possible to fight back against Sonic if you guess right with what he's going to do and put a hitbox in the way, and the latter just means every Sonic will always be banning Battlefield and Lylat Cruise and otherwise it's not really a problem for him at all. He's an incredible character.

 

[Saturn_]

Are Bair and smashes Sonic's only kill moves? Back throw? He always seems to have trouble putting people away.

 

[Locke 06]

What do Sonic's matchups look like?

He has the tools. But tools determine matchups which determine placement, and I think many see the tools and skip the matchups. I'm not arguing against Sonic, but, to complete his case for a place at the top, an idea of his matchup spread would be nice.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Are Bair and smashes Sonic's only kill moves? Back throw? He always seems to have trouble putting people away.

Sonic's usmash kills very early. Bair is his best kill aerial, but fair can do the job in an off-stage gimp situation (Sonic is *really* good at these chases) and uair can easily kill in juggle chase situations (which he's really good at getting since Spring Jump is an incredibly good chase that sets up for uair really well). Fsmash and dsmash are both respectable, and fsmash is in general a really fantastic button and is pretty quick for a smash so you can't just look at it as an impractical move to hit with a good Sonic will hit with this a lot. Bthrow is his best kill throw and is pretty incredible in general but both uthrow and fthrow do kill at realistic percentages as well (fthrow is almost always better than uthrow but if fthrow is more stale than uthrow for reasons unknown uthrow has kill potential too); Sonic actually converts throws to kills extremely well due to their raw power and how easily he lands grabs. Homing Attack can sometimes kill as well (it's a lot more powerful than you'd think), and in customs Hammer Spin Dash can ground people which sets up for usmash for the early kill super well. In my experience, Sonic is actually above average in ending stocks; he has a lot of tools to do so effectively.

---

This game is too young to be giving match-up charts. I don't think you can look at things that way now since any information you get on the topic is going to be super unreliable for any character.

 

[Luigi player]

Are Bair and smashes Sonic's only kill moves? Back throw? He always seems to have trouble putting people away.

I guess his most common KO move is bthrow. It's pretty easy to grab someone as Sonic, often a grab catches one off guard and KOs pretty early. If not bthrow, fsmash and bair do a decent job. And if Sonic and his opponent are both at ~130 fthrow will do the job as well. Usmash is really strong too, but it's kinda slow.

What do Sonic's matchups look like?

He has the tools. But tools determine matchups which determine placement, and I think many see the tools and skip the matchups. I'm not arguing against Sonic, but, to complete his case for a place at the top, an idea of his matchup spread would be nice.

From what I've seen and played it seems like Rosalina is pretty though for him. Luma is such a wall... other than that I don't see any MUs really troubling him too much.

 

[Ffamran]

Are Bair and smashes Sonic's only kill moves? Back throw? He always seems to have trouble putting people away.

I may be wrong about this, but I believe his kill moves are F-throw, B-throw, U-throw?, Bair, Nair?, Uair, and Smashes. I think Utilt and Ftilt kills, but I'm not sure, especially with Utilt since I don't recall seeing it being used a lot and I don't remember what percent it kills.

 

[Timbers]

Are Bair and smashes Sonic's only kill moves? Back throw? He always seems to have trouble putting people away.

Well, you just listed off 5 kill moves, which is respectable. The amount of kill moves that a character has doesn't weigh as heavily as how well a character can setup these kill opportunities and how risky those setups are...and that's what Sonic does well with I think. Fsmash and bair are pretty safe, and Sonic's runspeed+pivot grab for bthrow kills makes me salty. Character is good at closing out stocks and doesn't have to take any risks in order to do so.

 

[Ffamran]

Well, you just listed off 5 kill moves, which is respectable. The amount of kill moves that a character has doesn't weigh as heavily as how well a character can setup these kill opportunities and how risky those setups are...and that's what Sonic does well with I think. Fsmash and bair are pretty safe, and Sonic's runspeed+pivot grab for bthrow kills makes me salty. Character is good at closing out stocks and doesn't have to take any risks in order to do so.

Case in point: Falco has like 11 kill moves by default: Utilt, Dtilt, Up, Side, and Down Smash; Uair, Fair, Bair, Dair, B-throw, and U-throw; 13 if you add Void Reflector and Falco Charge. But, and here's the big but: Falco struggles to land them because of his mobility and because of their nature as kill moves or moves that do a lot of damage and knockback.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Match-ups in general I don't think are very knowable, but Rosalina vs Sonic is the single match-up I know most well. I'm pretty convinced Rosalina vs Sonic is a very even match-up. Sonic is extremely good at getting around and disrupting Luma (characters that are really fast and who have attacks that move them safely through shields are the best at this, and that's pretty much Sonic in a nutshell), but Rosalina herself has a lot of moves that are especially good at dealing with Sonic since her normals are really high priority. The neutral hashes out to Rosalina having a bit of an edge in winning exchanges but Sonic being better at capitalizing off won exchanges with good chases so they tend to keep neck and neck in the damage race if the game is equally well played on both sides. Both have really good juggle games but are hard for the other to juggle for various reasons; there are often incredibly tense exchanges way up there between these two. Rosalina's physics and recovery help her avoid a lot of Sonic's most deadly stuff and not die too early, but she can also really struggle to finish the deal against him since he's so slippery and Luma is so often disabled (Luma contains a lot of her kill power) so this tends to be a very slow paced match-up in which making a strong read for an early kill can really swing it effectively for either side. The good news about the match pace is that Rosalina can wait out Luma's respawn timer pretty reasonably here; Luma may not do the work here he does in other match-ups since Sonic is mostly impossible to zone, but that goes both ways in this case and you aren't going to be subjected to 12.5 seconds of hell because he dropped.

I do waffle on Rosalina's optimal customs here due to how weird this MU can be in how Luma is relatively less important than usual (still very important, just less than usual); I usually run Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp which have a very high general utility, but with Sonic's mobility, I seriously consider Floaty Star Bit and even honestly Power Luma Shot just to put obstacles in his way more (field testing of these has produced decent but not decisive results; consider them risky but potentially rewarding picks). Of course use default Launch Star, and you can take either Gravitational Pull or Guardian Luma with confidence knowing neither will be useful. Sonic should just always run 1211 (Hammer Spin Dash on side, default on the rest); it's really obviously just best here and any deviation Sonic makes is nothing but a gift to Rosalina. Customs being not allowed makes the match-up less fun but is probably about neutral on the match-up. Rosalina no longer has a useful side special and default Luma Shot is just definitely the wrong choice here and further minimizes the role Luma will play, but Sonic no longer has Hammer Spin Dash which makes his approaches more linear and removes one of his big openers for punishes. In other words, the match pace gets even slower but you'll end up reaching the same result.

Stage definitely matters a lot here too and probably more than in most match-ups; I actually have extensive match-up experience on a lot of stages here and can just give a preference list with the top being best for Rosalina and the bottom best for Sonic:

Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Kongo Jungle 64
Pokemon Stadium 2
Town & City
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Delfino Plaza
Smashville
Wuhu Island
Castle Siege
Final Destination
Windy Hill Zone

Only Battlefield and Windy Hill Zone get really bad; those stages are just brutal in this match-up if you're on the wrong side and the other side knows how to use those stages to emphasize their character strengths correctly. The others definitely matter a lot as well but are generally "fair enough"; there's probably some room for small re-arrangements especially close to the middle based on player preference but this should be close to right. Rosalina likes platform pollution, vertical gameplay, and anything that disrupts Sonic's movement (and she probably benefits a tiny bit more than him from pass-through floors, they work a bit better for her style of off-stage game than his). All else being equal Rosalina prefers the lower ceilings as well since she kills mostly up while Sonic spreads his kills among every direction, but it's not a huge concern here and Kongo's great platform lay-out definitely compensates for the ceiling here. On Sonic's side he wants open spaces, horizontal gameplay, running room, and as many walk-offs as possible since Sonic's bthrow is the best walk-off abuse move in the game. Very small slopes are really nice for Sonic in that their main effect is blocking Shooting Star Bits (Wuhu and Siege form 3), but once the slopes get as large as the rut in Kongo I think slopes don't matter too much to the match-up.

This post was probably better suited for the Rosalina board, but the Rosalina vs Sonic match-up came up and I sure do know that one well and see nothing but even match-up here which is especially impressive from a design perspective since these two characters play nothing alike at all.

 

[TriTails]

Are Bair and smashes Sonic's only kill moves? Back throw? He always seems to have trouble putting people away.

- F-smash
- U-smash
- B-throw
- F-throw
- U-throw (?)
- U-air (High up, somewhat respectable power)
- B-air
- D-air (Meteor smash)
- Homing Attack (At high percents only, and isn't safe on rolls)

Counts everything nine kill moves (D-smash kills?).

What do Sonic's matchups look like?

He has the tools. But tools determine matchups which determine placement, and I think many see the tools and skip the matchups. I'm not arguing against Sonic, but, to complete his case for a place at the top, an idea of his matchup spread would be nice.

Luigi is a tough one for him, due to his Fireballs (They stop Spin Dash/Charge, and can be fired super fast), and his comboing ability. Sonic has horrible control over his ground speed, and his attacks don't come out as fast as Luigi's. Sure, he can get around the Fireballs with his immense speed... but this can be easily baited. Cyclone can ram to him pretty unpredictably (He dashes in, you Cyclone in), and N-air maybe can catch him in his speed fantasy.

Mario may also be a tough one, but I think it's pretty even for them. His Fireballs are much laggier than Luigi's, and his combos aren't nearly as damaging as his brother, but he has his mobility. Plus... I wonder if Sonic can be Caped outta Spring Jump? I can see FLUDD works well in here as well, but I don't exactly main Mario.

 

[Jords2Good]

With many guides about many characters in this game, it'd sure be nice If someone is able to make a really nice Sonic guide in video form.
If I had the tools to do it, I would soo make one.

- F-smash
- U-smash
- B-throw
- F-throw
- U-throw (?)
- U-air (High up, somewhat respectable power)
- B-air
- D-air (Meteor smash)
- Homing Attack (At high percents only, and isn't safe on rolls)

Counts everything nine kill moves (D-smash kills?).

I'd say it's not your main kill move, but its as most down smashes are, its mainly good for punishing rolls.

 

[etecoon]

None of the best players in the world (i.e. the Five Gods) enter tournaments without secondary characters who see heavy play.

No one wants to listen to me but I genuinely believe Lucario wins the matchup with Sheik. It's harder to say with Diddy for certain, because the undisputed best player in the world right now solo mains Diddy, but I think Luigi and Sheik beat Diddy.

Six gods, and a lot of the counterpicking that goes on among them has more to do with personal preference than matchups actually being too hard

Lucario is even with Sheik IMO, rage + aura is bad for her but Sheik otherwise has much better tools. No opinion on Luigi. I think Diddy vs Sheik is near even but slightly in Diddy's favor, they both have answers to everything the other does but Diddy's answers are more direct, he gets bigger rewards, and he does much better coming back from losing the first stock where Sheik's lower kill power and need for rage can make things snowball for her, she needs to dominate the fight from the beginning like she does vs Lucario to have a truly advantageous matchup

I could see Wario having an advantage against Diddy too but also slight, I don't think anyone -really- beats him or Sheik enough where counterpicking pocket characters against them is really productive, unless your main just gets destroyed by them. But if you want a good secondary to cover bad MUs, Diddy is a pretty great choice

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic's landing options are complete butt, Ampharos. It's just hard to punish it if you're not Fox/Falcon/Diddy/Sonic since he can move faster or as fast as most characters can on the ground while having enough level to retreat towards. He can make a way to land safe, but his actual option coverage for someone directly below him is incredibly bad.

Fox in particular destroys Sonic the moment he goes airborne.

 

[TriTails]

As a Luigi main (Well, at least the knowledged one... I guess?), I can tell you all Luigi does not beat Sheik or Diddy.

Or is it me that is a bit oblivious about the MUs?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic is definitely top 10. At the very WORST he might be under Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, and Pikachu. Rosalina and Luigi if you're being extremely generous with their anti-meta potential and Ness if you really really want to push it and are kind of in denial and Lucario if you're giving him tons of credit for being the best at snagging lucky wins. Not including all customs Mii Brawler.

Personally I think he's somewhere between 3 and 5. ZSS, Pika and Sonic are a big shuffle to me with Sonic being the most consistent and the other 2 probably having more potential.

 

[meleebrawler]

Sonic's landing options are complete butt, Ampharos. It's just hard to punish it if you're not Fox/Falcon/Diddy/Sonic since he can move faster or as fast as most characters can on the ground while having enough level to retreat towards. He can make a way to land safe, but his actual option coverage for someone directly below him is incredibly bad.

Fox in particular destroys Sonic the moment he goes airborne.

To be more specific, that spring to dair autocancel is rather inflexible. Using the spring robs
Sonic of his other specials and his jump if he didn't use it already, and there needs to be a lot of
space for the autocancel to be successful. If he misses his chance for that, then all the opponent
needs to is chase after Sonic and shield whatever aerial he might try before punishing. Somewhat more
difficult if you're slow on the ground and had to deal with the falling spring, but it can be done.

 

[Bob da Bob]

I think bowser jr. has been very impressive just way underused. He has great KO potential, he basically has an extra move thanks to his very powerful hammer after he does up b, he is surprisingly a pretty heavy character, great recovery, reliable defenses since he takes less damage when his kart is hit, his speed is eh its not horrible but its not great either, great ledge guarding abilities, a very annoying character to fight against (all his special attacks are extremely annoying and some can actually kill), and some really good combos if you know how to use him.

 

[TriTails]

I main Luigi and I find none of Jr.'s special attacks are annoying actually. Maybe Abandon Ship to an extent, but for other specials, eh, not so much. All I find respecting is his exploding ship KO potential, but I don't respect his close combat game or camping, even his defenses (But I main the best comboer in the game, so yeah...).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I main Luigi and I find none of Jr.'s special attacks are annoying actually. Maybe Abandon Ship to an extent, but for other specials, eh, not so much. All I find respecting is his exploding ship KO potential, but I don't respect his close combat game or camping, even his defenses (But I main the best comboer in the game, so yeah...).

People really are not using mecha koopa very well then.

 

[HeroMystic]

Luigi is a tough one for him, due to his Fireballs (They stop Spin Dash/Charge, and can be fired super fast), and his comboing ability. Sonic has horrible control over his ground speed, and his attacks don't come out as fast as Luigi's. Sure, he can get around the Fireballs with his immense speed... but this can be easily baited. Cyclone can ram to him pretty unpredictably (He dashes in, you Cyclone in), and N-air maybe can catch him in his speed fantasy.

Mario may also be a tough one, but I think it's pretty even for them. His Fireballs are much laggier than Luigi's, and his combos aren't nearly as damaging as his brother, but he has his mobility. Plus... I wonder if Sonic can be Caped outta Spring Jump? I can see FLUDD works well in here as well, but I don't exactly main Mario.

Sonic's pretty much impossible to gimp for Mario.

Mario does well against Sonic but it's pretty much even. Mario can keep up with him and apply pressure thanks to his attack speed, but Mario does not have the freedom to throw out attacks like he does in other MUs because Sonic can punish you from across the stage.

 

[Runic_SSB]

People really are not using mecha koopa very well then.

How do you use mechakoopa, then?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

How do you use mechakoopa, then?

put one down almost antime i cant follow up ant more. its just a decent stage control move that. if can give pit trouble can definitly give someone as slow as luigi problems. but thats just me. you probably would get a better detailed answer from somebody who actually uses jr. i just faced a few who made regaining my footing a pain.

 

[Radical Larry]

It's just my opinion, but Diddy Kong doesn't seem that scary to use or even go against. Annoying...absolutely.

Also, Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopa is a mobile and more dangerous version of the Banana, but it doesn't have much of a guaranteed combo start up that Banana has.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________v Yes, I use Diddy. I find him unbelievably viable, but not an absolute beast in the game. Top 5, guaranteed.

 

[bc1910]

Mechakoopa's strength is in the fact that your opponent has to respect it and deal with it somehow. Yeah it can be picked up and lobbed straight back at BowJow but even that is forcing your opponent to do something about it, and you can punish it with a well timed kart dash or by simply keeping up with the mechakoopa so they don't have time to throw it. It's something you have to use carefully because it can be used against you but it's still a very important tool.

 

[ApolloJustice]

I most likely find a Mechakoopa harder to deal with than a Banana due to a Mechakoopa more than likely being followed up with a Clown Kart Dash leading to you either avoiding the Clown Kart, and possibly having the Mechakoopa mess you up later, or trying to get rid of the Mechakoopa and possibly getting hit by the Clown Kart.

 

[dragontamer]

Bowser Jr. Mechakoopa can also follow Bowser Jr.

The player throws Mechakoopa _behind_ himself and then charges while Mechakoopa covers slower attacks. Koopaling's dash-attack for example can be timed such that Mechakoopa covers the cooldown, making it a safe attack even on block.

Mechakoopa in front allows you to charge while negating your opponent's projectiles (it seems to clash often, negating one of your opponent's projectiles for a safer approach). On the other hand, Mechakoopa behind allows you to take risky attacks (ie: Dash Attacks, SH DAir approaches, even FSmash) while Mechakoopa covers your cooldown.

I feel like Bowser Jr's strategy is forcing opponents to jump, and then beating the opponent in the air. Bowser Jr.'s aerial hitboxes are kind of insane.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bowser Jr. Mechakoopa can also follow Bowser Jr.

The player throws Mechakoopa _behind_ himself and then charges while Mechakoopa covers slower attacks. Koopaling's dash-attack for example can be timed such that Mechakoopa covers the cooldown, making it a safe attack even on block.

Mechakoopa in front allows you to charge while negating your opponent's projectiles (it seems to clash often, negating one of your opponent's projectiles for a safer approach). On the other hand, Mechakoopa behind allows you to take risky attacks (ie: Dash Attacks, SH DAir approaches, even FSmash) while Mechakoopa covers your cooldown.

I feel like Bowser Jr's strategy is forcing opponents to jump, and then beating the opponent in the air. Bowser Jr.'s aerial hitboxes are kind of insane.

The one thing Jr. is great at is punishing landings. He can be very frustrating to deal with once he gets going.