Character Competitive Impressions

[Antonykun]

Diddy's broken, huge, lagless aerials are a bigger problem than d-throw. Uair especially is fast, powerful, has a giant hitbox due to Diddy's rubber arms, and has little lag. Uair frametraps are how Diddys get their kills moreso than any sort of true combo out of dthrow.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm all for customs. I just don't know how learning the match ups would work. Would I be better off learning the best version of each character or which version is a better counter pick against my character?

Honestly, it's a little bit of both. Some characters are flexible enough to where they can have more than one optimal build against different characters and/or archetypes. Not all characters are like that, however.

oh my goodness @ Thinkaman you stole my thunder with numbers

Smooth Criminal

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm all for customs. I just don't know how learning the match ups would work. Would I be better off learning the best version of each character or which version is a better counter pick against my character?

You would take everything into account. What a character would likely choose for the MU, and take it on against another character's variant. Like @ Thinkaman said, majority of the time players will choose the best thing against an opponent and the rest of the options would be inferior.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

It seems to be something of a trend (or at least something come from a couple of people) to claim that Bowser is bottom tier material. Something about that doesn't quite sit right with me, and I don't mean in an "I main the character and you just don't see his true potential!!!" sort of way. It's more that I can't see his combination of tools ever being that bad, other than, yes, you risk getting punished if you mess up because some of your attacks leave you wide open. I'm not a Bowser player so I can't speak from that angle, but he seems a little too...good to be bad?

I mentioned this some weeks ago, but I was watching a Sheik vs. Bowser matchup where Sheik had total control of the set only to end up losing because of three good reads by Bowser. Just having that in mind makes me think that it's hard to ever truly count out Bowser even if he isn't top 15, let alone top 5.

To go off on a bit of tangent from this, I feel like there's a constant contention as to the value of mechanical skill vs. reading and strategy among people, with safety often being prized by a lot of players. It makes sense because, generally speaking, the safer your character is the less chances they have of getting hurt bad, but I think that Smash 4 has tried to make as many strides towards read-based styles, which is why you have such disagreement over a character like Ganondorf.

My opinion on Bowser is that Charizard is better. All the "fatties" operate in "three good reads" especially since they're the prime Rage abusers.

I do believe that the value of effective health is being diminished when it comes to fatty discussion because they do live long enough to make those hits and get favourable trades.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

NOPE

Anyways, customs at EVO. Pretty likely now.

What do ya'll think?

Smooth Criminal

Yes please I'll take two eight.

 

[mimgrim]

If we're playing this game, I call dibs on Little Mac with Ganon uair.

Greninja with Diddy's Dthrow.

The HOO HAH now becomes GRE NINJA.

Yes, I know greninja already has Uthrow but that is no where near as good as Diddy's Dthrow for obvious reasons.

 

[Thinkaman]

Don't blame him.

 

[Antonykun]

Don't blame him.

marry me

EDIT: this is now my sig thx @ Thinkaman

 

[Nobie]

My opinion on Bowser is that Charizard is better. All the "fatties" operate in "three good reads" especially since they're the prime Rage abusers.

I do believe that the value of effective health is being diminished when it comes to fatty discussion because they do live long enough to make those hits and get favourable trades.

Charizard is likely better, but I can't really say one way or another.

However, I do think there are some significant differences between how each of the heavies (or even the heavier characters in general) utilize rage, and that there could be more discussion about the strategic use of Rage, an obvious example being Charizard's ability to self-inflict damage through Flare Blitz.

In looking at how Rage affects Mega Man, I find that his fairly heavy weight is more there so he can survive getting hit when opponents get past his zoning, and that the main offensive function of rage is to boost his back air and back throw (everything else KOs fairly early anyway).

 

[incrediblej]

If were playing "this game" where we choose who with whos ability I choose olimar with brawl olimar ability again and toon link with links attack and launch power and cfalcon grabbing

But you know thats just me

 

[Ulevo]

Charizard is not better than Bowser.

 

[The Light Music Club]

I don't agree with Dabuz's tier chart at all. I think Palutena should be much higher. I win more Sheik match ups with Palutena than I do with Pikachu...

 

[Antonykun]

Um Charizard and Bowser are like two different characters in a game that is very young.
By the logic of those two being heavies that spit fire logic i should ask who's better or (clearly its but i don't want to start flame wars)

 

[hey_there]

How is luigi with customs???

Luigi's Iceball is really good. Burial Header (upb3) is pretty decent. It trades the high risk/very high reward of SJP for a lower risk/moderate reward. For the most part I usually go with SJP, but when I take Burial Header I find I get more usage out of it per match. Luigi Cyclone is good don't touch it. The missiles are preference based. I like Floating Missile because it has the least endlag, charges twice as fast as the default while still going about the same distance at max charge, and the misfire KOs only 2-3% later than the default while only doing 2% less than the default. It does the least amount of damage at full charge(18% compared to 21% for default), but because it charges faster it typically does more damage if you catch an airdodge or whatever with it. Quick Missile has massive endlag, but will fire you very far, very fast, so you don't have to spend much time charging in the air to get distance to return after getting knocked off stage.

Luigi is pretty good without customs, better with customs.

 

[Thinkaman]

I really want to see Boss and the other top Luigi players do stuff with Iceball. I'm really curious as to what its true value really is.

 

[incrediblej]

@thelightmusicclub
the reason for palutena being so low is because its harder to kil with her because her smash attacks use alot of reads and have alot of endlag, her counter comes out slow her reflect can be avoided auto lock is useless unless it's a distraction of somesort cause it can be avoided, and not sure about airs or tilts on her
@ Nobie
I played both charz and bows but I feel like charizards recovery isn't as good but bowsers is mediocre, and charizard feels abit slugish but other than that im not that sure

 

[NairWizard]

Diddy with Diddy d-throw.

Spoiler

What about Diddy with Luigi d-throw?

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Thinkaman On the subject of "this game", Mario with Ganon's Dash Attack. Pac Man with Falcon's Dashgrab. Yoshi with Mario's B-air. Falcon with Doc's Up-B. Link with any of Ike's throws.

These characters would be horrifyingly good.

 

[Ffamran]

Now for something different: Fox with Bowser's weight. Nothing else is changed; Fox keeps his fall speed, frame data, move set, jump height, and air speed.

Anyway, on customs, is Bowser's Koopa Dash or whatever it's called banned or going to be banned in tournaments?

 

[Antonykun]

Anyway, on customs, is Bowser's Koopa Dash or whatever it's called banned or going to be banned in tournaments?

Not before timber counter

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Now for something different: Fox with Bowser's weight. Nothing else is changed; Fox keeps his fall speed, frame data, move set, jump height, and air speed.

Anyway, on customs, is Bowser's Koopa Dash or whatever it's called banned or going to be banned in tournaments?

IMO no custom move is ban-worthy, certainly not at this point in the game where we've had literally zero major tournaments with them allowed. Not even Timber Counter.

 

[Pazx]

I don't see a reason to ban any customs, certainly not yet. DK and Villager have good customs but they aren't gamebreaking and they aren't even on the level of Diddy's normal moves. @ Shaya may disagree though and I'd like to see his reasoning.

 

[Thinkaman]

Special move ban tier list, starting with the "most bannable": (Which isn't the same as "best")

1. Oil Panic
2. Gravitational Pull
3. Timber Counter
4. Kong Cyclone
5. Monkey Flip
6. anything else

Honestly, none of these are ban-worthy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Short Fuse Bomb + Sliding Spin Attack on TL needs a stalling clause imo. That's all I can think of.

 

[Antonykun]

IMO no custom move is ban-worthy, certainly not at this point in the game where we've had literally zero major tournaments with them allowed. Not even Timber Counter.

Dong Cyclone IS OP way more than Kong Cyclone

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Special move ban tier list, starting with the "most bannable": (Which isn't the same as "best")

1. Oil Panic
2. Gravitational Pull
3. Timber Counter
4. Kong Cyclone
5. Monkey Flip
6. anything else

Honestly, none of these are ban-worthy.

I like how 3/5 of this list are default specials. Which I suppose is half of your point but still. Funny.

Edit so the quote won't send an alert but whatever...

Short Fuse Bomb + Sliding Spin Attack on TL needs a stalling clause imo. That's all I can think of.

Surely the bomb explosion will cause Toon Link to kill himself eventually?

 

[Paper Maribro]

You guys want scary?

Mega Man's jab upgraded to fire Melee Falco lasers. You will never be safe again.

 

[Ticker]

You guys want scary?

Mega Man's jab upgraded to fire Melee Falco lasers. You will never be safe again.

With or without the lag

 

[Paper Maribro]

With or without the lag

It's still Mega Man's jab, it just fires Melee Falco lasers

 

[Locke 06]

You guys want scary?

Mega Man's jab upgraded to fire Melee Falco lasers. You will never be safe again.

What you meant to say was Mega Man with Little Mac's jab. Buster shots still assigned to ftilt and Nair.

Or mega man with quick attack just to be a camping/stalling annoyance.

 

[Antonykun]

can we stop with the x character with y move? It's starting to become a huge derail. These characters have their moves for a reason.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

These characters have their moves for a reason.

I have no idea why Ganon still has warlock Punch, other then Sakurai purposefully ****ing in my cereal.

 

[Antonykun]

I have no idea why Ganon still has warlock Punch, other then Sakurai purposefully ****ing in my cereal.

Baby there's this thing called hype

 

[Yokoblue]

I have no idea why Ganon still has warlock Punch, other then Sakurai purposefully ****ing in my cereal.

I think Up tilt is worse... at least the punch has hyper armor or whatever armor

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Now for something different: Fox with Bowser's weight. Nothing else is changed; Fox keeps his fall speed, frame data, move set, jump height, and air speed.

Anyway, on customs, is Bowser's Koopa Dash or whatever it's called banned or going to be banned in tournaments?

People know to fear the dash slash eh?

 

[Nu~]

I think Up tilt is worse... at least the punch has hyper armor or whatever armor

It can be used as a decent ledge guard.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It can be used as a decent ledge guard.

they should make the explosion hit below the ledge as well. it would be a golden move then.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have no idea why Ganon still has warlock Punch, other then Sakurai purposefully ****ing in my cereal.

Because someone needs to be top tier in Home Run Contest.

Also Ganon's worst move is Jab tbh.

 

[Lavani]

they should make the explosion hit below the ledge as well. it would be a golden move then.

dude

do you realize how big the hitbox on utilt currently is?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Warlock Punch is actually useful in this game if you can bait out a sufficiently laggy move to tank with the super armor. It's not all that great, and is almost never worth it, but there are actually rare situations where it's the right move to use.(read: Flare Blitz) Of course Ganon would much rather have a projectile or something to compensate for his poor mobility, but Warlock Punch has been buffed to make it(barely) out of Sing tier, as it is actually decently scary in doubles.