Character Competitive Impressions

[dragontamer]

Regardless of how people feel about customs, I think that labeling it as a different metagame is a little silly. It is technically true, but it's really an extension of the current metagame; there is nothing in the non-custom metagame that is not in the custom metagame. Everything we learn in non-custom can be applied in custom.

Your main isn't Pacman. Your setups don't rely on setups between multiple B-attacks at a time. Hydrant-Gushed Bell KO setups have specific timings that change drastically.

Tell me, do you know the direction that a Lazy Fruit Melon takes when it is redirected by the Hydrant? PacMan has 8 fruits per option. That in of itself is 24 projectiles that move in unique ways, those 24-projectiles move differently whether or not they hit a hydrant and can also be recaught and rethrown at slightly different trajectories.

I mean, yes, I do realize that playing PacMan gives me a distinct knowledge advantage in the metagame, as especially in the customs metagame where I can abuse my mastery of fruit / hydrant setups above and beyond the opponent. But I don't like winning because my opponent was ignorant, and I don't like losing because I was ignorant to some setup.

Even with a more standard character, Mario's standard Up-B IIRC also has wonky things like invincibility frames as early as frame 3 IIRC, while different Up-B attacks lose the invincibility but gain KO potential for example.

When you're talking about Mario's OOS options, and how he plays defensively or how he will react to your pressure, things are drastically different when he has a frame-3 invincible OOS option vs when he doesn't. Its a drastically different metagame, and you should fight the Mario completely differently. That's just a fact.

Now I do realize that people like playing with the extra diversity and the extra options. But I don't, especially at this juncture. There's still much for me to learn about the current metagame, and I most definitely don't need customs to keep things interesting. Maybe when I master the vanilla metagame, I'll move on to customs. But I know I'm a long way away from mastery right now.

And I bet even the pros are a long away from mastery as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What makes you think that a Pac-Man main won't/doesn't win due to opponents' ignorance in the non-customs metagame? Many B moves barely see use as it is; having to know more about a couple of new moves per character (most of which work in largely the same manner as non-custom ones) is very rarely world-changing, and for shenanigans coming from ignorance, hopefully it only takes you one time getting bopped to go back and take a few minutes to look at what a certain move is capable of. It's hardly any different from all the people who airdodge(d?) into Luma U-Air and died at 30%.

Something like Mario Up-B doesn't come into play that often. Yes, you have to respect or not respect a particular option in a particular situation, but it's likely not going to be changing any match-up more than a smidge in terms of viability.

 

[dragontamer]

What makes you think that a Pac-Man main won't/doesn't win due to opponents' ignorance in the non-customs metagame?

There's a much lower-chance of it happening. When we have a standard metagame to study, we can rely on each other knowing and reaching mastery together.

At very least, now that Abadango has shown what PacMan's setups are like in Apex, I think people are now paying attention to him. Kinda bad, because I'm not going to rack up as many easy wins, but its good in the long term so that the game can progress to the "reading" stage.

As long as opponents are ignorant about setups, the game cannot progress to high-level play. This is a fact. If opponents are still losing to PacMan's setups due to ignorance, then that is even more reason to keep customs out of the game IMO.

Many B moves barely see use as it is; having to know more about a couple of new moves per character (most of which work in largely the same manner as non-custom ones) is very rarely world-changing, and for shenanigans coming from ignorance, hopefully it only takes you one time getting bopped to go back and take a few minutes to look at what a certain move is capable of. It's hardly any different from all the people who airdodge(d?) into Luma U-Air and died at 30%.

The changes in some of these custom moves are far more than just a "simple" metagame change. Sure, there are things like Ike's diagonal Aether that cutely goes through walls and you kinda learn how to deal with it after getting bopped once. But then there are some other characters that drastically change. Palutena for example is a completely different beast.

As stated before, I know my opinion is in the minority. But I don't think you can tell me with a straight face that Palutena "plays the same" in the customs metagame. She's drastically different, and outside of playing with or against Super-speed / Lightweight Palutena for a good amount of time, I don't think there's any way to prepare for her.

It's certainly not a "get bopped once and figure it out". Its a game-defining mechanic change for Palutena. I can see why some people would be excited for that, but I'm personally against any major changes to the metagame while we're still learning it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As long as people are ignorant about set-ups, they're not -trying- to progress to high-level play. That's a matter of experience or research, not a matter of whether or not customs are allowed. For someone trying to be good at the game, it's a small amount of extra information to process, all things considered.

For a character like Palutena who gets markedly better with her customs, learning her non-custom stuff is largely a waste of time anyway, since it's almost guaranteed that stuff like Neutral-B and Forward-B will pretty much never be used on optimal sets. That is doubly so when you put such an emphasis on high-level play; why bother screwing around with bad moves when we could just be using and learning the good ones?

 

[Thinkaman]

The power of hidden information rewards defensive play. When no one is quite sure what their opponents are capable of, the campers stand victorious.

You are right about this; hidden information would be a very toxic way of doing this.

All custom selection MUST be public, just like character selection.

Fortunately, on WiiU, it is impossible for it NOT to be visible. (The ruleset should just make this clear.)

 

[dragontamer]

As long as people are ignorant about set-ups, they're not -trying- to progress to high-level play. That's a matter of experience or research, not a matter of whether or not customs are allowed. For someone trying to be good at the game, it's a small amount of extra information to process, all things considered.

For a character like Palutena who gets markedly better with her customs, learning her non-custom stuff is largely a waste of time anyway, since it's almost guaranteed that stuff like Neutral-B and Forward-B will pretty much never be used on optimal sets. That is doubly so when you put such an emphasis on high-level play; why bother screwing around with bad moves when we could just be using and learning the good ones?

I understand that you want to play in the customs metagame, and I also understand that the majority of SmashBoards members seem to want to do so as well. I'm only asking for one concession from you: please admit that the customs metagame is a separate metagame than the vanilla metagame.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-392#post-18560383

Above is the post that took us along the path. I'll admit that yes, the customs metagame is an "extension" technically, but it is nonetheless a different metagame. As you note in the quoted post, there is no point in learning Palutena standard b-attacks in the customs metagame, while in the vanilla metagame it is all she's got (and therefore, what you must learn if you wish to main Palutena in vanilla).

I really just don't think you can look at a character like Palutena, and then claim that the customs metagame is "just an extension".

--------------

Beyond that, I'm going to try and close out this argument. I do think we've left the topic of "character competitive impressions" for a bit too long.

EDIT: Although maybe if we moved the discussion to "Ruleset discussion", I'll be more comfortable talking over there? Is that cool with you?

So, Wario people. I think he's getting slept on. Bike is actually a pretty good anti-projectile distance closer, and his bite makes him hard to camp out. IIRC, as he eats projectiles, he charges his down-B even faster, which makes zoning him out a dangerous game. The fart seems to KO as low as 30% if you can get both hits off, so it is as threatening as Little Mac's KO punch, while being much safer to use.

 

[Project Quarantine]

I understand that you want to play in the customs metagame, and I also understand that the majority of SmashBoards members seem to want to do so as well. I'm only asking for one concession from you: please admit that the customs metagame is a separate metagame than the vanilla metagame.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-392#post-18560383

Above is the post that took us along the path. I'll admit that yes, the customs metagame is an "extension" technically, but it is nonetheless a different metagame. As you note in the quoted post, there is no point in learning Palutena standard b-attacks in the customs metagame, while in the vanilla metagame it is all she's got (and therefore, what you must learn if you wish to main Palutena in vanilla).

I really just don't think you can look at a character like Palutena, and then claim that the customs metagame is "just an extension".

--------------

Beyond that, I'm going to try and close out this argument. I do think we've left the topic of "character competitive impressions" for a bit too long.

So, Wario people. I think he's getting slept on. Bike is actually a pretty good anti-projectile distance closer, and his bite makes him hard to camp out. IIRC, as he eats projectiles, he charges his down-B even faster, which makes zoning him out a dangerous game. The fart seems to KO as low as 30% if you can get both hits off, so it is as threatening as Little Mac's KO punch, while being much safer to use.

Pls don't close this thread. I think we are developing the metagame as we engage in this prolonged chat about smash4. Also, many players are learning to play smash better because of this thread. A possible extension thread as an alternative would be to take the custom discussions and matchup analysis to a separate thread as active as this one.

If you only meant to cancel the discussion about customs, then go right ahead and ignore this post.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I am largely indifferent about playing in the customs metagame, myself; I don't mind it either way. The community will play what they want to play. The fact remains that high-level players aren't really using non-custom Palutena because she doesn't appear to be a very good character, and so she's relatively irrelevant in that ruleset. Customs are still "just an extension" because she is -barely a character- in high-level play in vanilla, and so she's upgraded significantly as to matter, but is still the base character primarily. If having admittance that they're not the same thing will placate you, then, sure, have it; I'm not sure what that line of thinking benefits, though.

A lot of people are rating Wario pretty highly; he got a lot of quality of life changes, though he's still campy and boring. What do you mean "both hits" of Down-B? It only does one hit.

 

[Ludiloco]

Wario works well against overly defensive play: shield pokes with bike and retreating fair, as well as coming down with bite pretty much eliminate shield as a defensive option against him. That + almost ungimpable recovery makes him a solid choice in this meta. His aerial mobility allows him to DI away from a lot of otherwise true combos more easily, as well.

His biggest weakness is finding a way to kill. Wario is strong but his kill moves are laggy or (in the waft's case) predictable. He's all about tricky setups with the grounded bike or playing mindgames with the opponent to get the waft off. I can't believe people ever thought Mac's KO punch would be OP, Wario's is way better and has four stages, two of which can kill. It can't be knocked out of him and he doesn't lose it if he loses a stock.

Edit: Oh whoa, what's up Reflex lol. Don't have to tell you any of this

 

[Terotrous]

Regardless of how people feel about customs, I think that labeling it as a different metagame is a little silly. It is technically true, but it's really an extension of the current metagame; there is nothing in the non-custom metagame that is not in the custom metagame. Everything we learn in non-custom can be applied in custom.

It's still a different metagame because the availability of drastically different options changes virtually all matchups.

See also Pokemon, which has different metagames based on which tiers are allowed. You're always allowed to use lower tiers in higher metagames (ie, UU is allowed in OU), but it still requires drastically different strategy to deal with the different threats you face in that tier.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The comparison to Pokémon is like having low tier or mid tier tournaments, though. That's not a reasonable comparison, IMO.

 

[Nobie]

If there was something like customs in Pokemon that (according to current research) compresses the tiers more and allowed more Pokemon to be viable, the competitive scene for that game wouldn't be complaining about having to deal with more options. They'd be jumping for joy that they have access to more Pokemon, more possible strategies, and more variety. More people would be motivated to play, and more people would seek to push the metagame forward.

The tiers in Smogon are mainly there to keep the stronger Pokemon from running roughshod over their lesser counterparts, not to keep the weaker Pokemon from mucking up the OU metagame.

 

[Terotrous]

If there was something like customs in Pokemon that (according to current research) compresses the tiers more and allowed more Pokemon to be viable, the competitive scene for that game wouldn't be complaining about having to deal with more options.

Actually, things like Double Team, Moody, and SwagPlay fit this description perfectly, and Smogon bans them all the time. Basically, if a strategy doesn't fit their idea of what the game should be, they ban it.


I agree that Pokemon is a mess, but nevertheless the fact remains that metagames can be additive.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

I've always wondered why they decided to get rid of QA's startup from 64.

Like, Pikachu has Skull Bash and hitboxes surrounding his UpB now. Did he really need QA's startup reduced from f25 to like f7 while still retaining its directional control? c'mon samurai.

Wasn't he invincible during that startup though? It still let him get away with stuff. Not with what SolidSense outlined, but it let him escape combos and punishes.

And I know we stopped talking about Ganon, but those missile side B moves are very easily stomped. Out of all the meteors in the game, would you consider Ganon's the best? Imo R.O.B.'s is but I don't have any data other than "the hitbox is huge."

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pokémon a game that deals with copious amounts of RNG, though. High-level matches often get decided by full paralysis or untimely crits. Not nearly so much of that here.

 

[the king of murder]

The custom moves of Pokemon would be the TM moves. Seeing how there are a lot more Pokemon than charas in Smash with many Pokes having many different movepools/+ability, TMs and move tutor just adding it up, Smash is a joke compared to this.

 

[Nobie]

Actually, things like Double Team, Moody, and SwagPlay fit this description perfectly, and Smogon bans them all the time. Basically, if a strategy doesn't fit their idea of what the game should be, they ban it.


I agree that Pokemon is a mess, but nevertheless the fact remains that metagames can be additive.

Double Team and friends are a different case compared to custom moves, though. Though I disagree with how Smogon bans them, I can also see where they're coming from, in the sense that they don't want matches to degenerate into pure dice rolls. Only a few moves qualify for this category in Smash, and those that do aren't considered game-breaking techniques (Turnip, Judge). In the case of evasion ban, etc., it's more a quality of life decision, akin to banning stages in Smash Bros.

 

[The Light Music Club]

As long as people are ignorant about set-ups, they're not -trying- to progress to high-level play. That's a matter of experience or research, not a matter of whether or not customs are allowed. For someone trying to be good at the game, it's a small amount of extra information to process, all things considered.

For a character like Palutena who gets markedly better with her customs, learning her non-custom stuff is largely a waste of time anyway, since it's almost guaranteed that stuff like Neutral-B and Forward-B will pretty much never be used on optimal sets. That is doubly so when you put such an emphasis on high-level play; why bother screwing around with bad moves when we could just be using and learning the good ones?

Do you play Palutena? Because to me it sounds like you are saying she can't be good without customs. Her moves aren't bad if you use them correctly. My Palutena can actually hang with Diddy, Shiek, Pikachu, and Zero Suit. And it has a huge part to do with the fact that I use her two B moves that you mentioned. So no, it's not a waste of time to learn them, because based on the situation and whether or not customs are legal, you should know how to use characters regular sets. I think the move that isn't useful is down B. Her counter is one of the worst moves, and is probably the worst counter.

 

[HeroMystic]

"There's too much to learn" is not valid in terms of not allowing custom moves. Not only is it entirely subjective, but it provides a slippery slope argument. You're better off saying "I don't want to learn all the customs" instead. At least then you're being honest.

The only real arguments I've seen against customs is logistics, which has been solved, and not knowing what the opponent is using, which is solved because we're smart and we make rules for this stuff.

The last argument that remains is Customs are broken and they hurt the metagame more than it helps, in which case we need to wait and see when data pours through.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fsmash
Usmash
Dsmash
Dash Attack
Nair
Fair
Bair
Uair
Dair
Grab/Dash Grab/Pivot Grab
Neutral B
Side B
Up B
Down B


This is the standard fare of moves that a character has in a match, not even counting things like character specific stats and advance techniques.

51 characters (currently until Mewtwo shows up) = 51 x 18 = 918 moves total.

Knowing how each of these moves function is pretty much required to be exceptionally good at a competitive level. However, it isn't completely necessary. Because not every single move in the game is as good as the rest. And not every single character is as good as the rest. An example, Ganondorf's Utilt is practically useless. King DeDeDe's Fsmash is also slow as heck. Meta Knight's jab is incredibly terrible. Little Mac's aerials, while they can sometimes be useful, are otherwise pretty niche and aren't the main focus of his gameplan.

So what does all of this mean? Basically, while there might be 918 standard moves and it would be best to learn them all, you don't necessarily need to learn all of them because some of those moves simply aren't good, or aren't a part of that character's gameplan. And even then, not all characters are going to be used at the competitive level, and this drastically cuts the 918 number down by a lot. Let's just say nearly 75% as an example. So that's about ~700 moves or so.


This also applies to custom moves as well. If we don't count the standard specials that everyone is familiar with, we have:

51 characters (currently until Mewtwo shows up) = 51 x 8 = 408 custom moves.

Just like the characters and standard moves, knowing how each of these moves function is pretty much required to be exceptionally good at the custom competitive level. But again, it isn't completely necessary. Because not every single custom move in the game is as good as the rest. And not every single character is as good as the rest (although customs help bridge the gaps between the characters). Other than Blitz Pound, do you think any of Jigglypuff's other customs are worthwhile at all? What about Dr. Mario or Luigi's clothsline tornados? Is anyone seriously going to pick Mario's giant fireballs over his fast fireballs or standard fireballs? And for characters like Villager, is he seriously going to pick any version of his Down B other than Counter Timber? What about reflector moves? Some of them focus on causing damage, and others actually focus on absorbing/reflecting projectiles, and therefore they are extremely MU dependent.

Of those 408 moves, you're probably only going to need to learn about half of them. ~200 custom moves total.



Now then, here's the problem:

In comparison to the amount of standard moves you actually need to learn in standard competitive play, the amount of custom moves you actually need to learn for a customs environment is probably going to equate for less than a third of the moves you have already learned/are learning/need to learn about.

If you combine the total of estimated standard moves to learn with the estimated custom moves to learn, that number ends up being around 900. Oh wait, that number seems familiar. That would have been around the same amount of standard moves someone would have to learn competitively if all moves/characters could be used with equal success.

Anyone who complains about there being too many custom moves to learn/remember is using a poor excuse, and they are not truly thinking competitively.

It's laziness. Pure and simple. You cannot seriously tell me that you can't successfully learn about these moves in the 21st century when we have internet, and Youtube. And if your job/lifestyle/etc is too busy to allocate time into doing that, then what are you doing here anyways? Why are you trying to play competitively if you are too busy to watch a video on youtube a single time in order to understand how these moves work?

Even then, you can just watch tournament videos as normal. And if there's videos of a custom tournament with other people using them, you don't necessarily have to learn about them by actually playing the game. Because you can just watch other people use them in order to understand how they work effectively, and how they work in general.



I bet that most of you watch customless tournament videos on Youtube already, and learning/taking notes from those videos. What difference does it make if customs are added to the mix? Is it seriously THAT hard to learn a couple of extra moves/strategies?


The answer is no.

 

[Antonykun]

Sheesh, from one derail to another.
Anyway I think that Villager's meta is really starved. It's probably because we lack one really powerful player who goes to tournaments and kicks butt but...isn't this true fir everone?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Wow. We certainly have different views on Villager. I think it's the only matchup I feel helpless in as Luigi. Tree snuffs fireballs, Villager can pocket fireballs, keep him out with fair [Unless Luigi clanks with nair] and Luigi struggles to answer to gyroid. Also Luigi can't recovery low thanks to bowling ball offstage. Villager is helpless if Luigi gets in though.

Idk about Duck Hunt and dealing with the can [Bair is nice], but recently I found out that tornado is a wonderful answer to knocking Luma away and getting right up next to Rosalina [Who is extremely easy to combo and kill with a D throw to Up B]. Also if Rosalina is far away and not recalled, uppercutting Luma spells death for it if you're risky.

Agreed with the ability to approach better and also his reward off a grab is the best in the game for racking damage. I think Diddy kills earlier with Hoo Hah though, unless you get Luigi's D throw to Nair sweetspot.

I need to practice perfect pivoting. I thought it was a gimmick technique like the Luigi chaingrab at first but I can see the applications of it.

I find Mega Man easier than Villager, at least Mega Man is easier to dair spike when recovering, he doesn't have a projectile like gyroid, which is so huge as to be difficult to dodge, and fireball clanks with Megaman's projectiles. Also it can't be pocketed or reflected. Tornados from Mega Man in the air though are a pain. Also with bair and forward Smash. A whiffed D smash is an instant Up B for Luigi. I think of Villager as 60:40 Villager favor and 55:45 Mega Man favor.

I also won...a college tournament not long ago out of 15 people with pure Luigi. Rosalina was manageable along with Sheik, ZSS was a bit more tricky though thanks to the whip and her mobility. Her range makes her a bigger threat than Sheik against Luigi and not being reliant on a Luma. D smash set ups for kills are strong too.

Oh, I also think Luigi is better than Peach and Mario. Not Ness.

I'll leave this here:
http://www.twitch.tv/egeofficial/v/3698638?t=21m54s

Poke is one of Toronto's best. Chuckles is known as Chokehold in the UMvC3 community, and he's also very solid at that game. I did not know until this tournament that he played Smash.

I'm sure a Luigi main might get more out of watching this MU than me. But I'll do my best:

Once Luigi is offstage, it's a mess for him to make it back. Even though Poke won game 1, game 2 was a mess. Villager just walled out Luigi and pushed him offstage with his slingshot, eating his double jump. Villager, on the other hand, has the easiest time coming back from wherever he pleases. He can fly around offstage, **** around, and still make it back safely.

Villager's N-air, D-air and U-air let him stick long lasting hitboxes that let him escape pressure. With that said, Luigi is capable of baiting them out and shielding them to keep up his pressure.

All you said about the Tree controlling space seems to be true.

I think that Villager definitely beats Luigi. More input would be nice on this MU.

Also worth noting, Poke switches to C. Falcon for game 3 and he wins.

 

[Timbers]

I have a few questions about custom movesets in a tournament setting. Pardon my ignorance as I haven't been keeping up with customs, so if someone could help explain and/or direct me to a thread that covers my questions, I'd greatly appreciate it.

1) What is the likely flow of choosing your character's customs?

2) Do both players announce which character they will play, and then pick customs accordingly?

3) Are customs picked before knowing the opponent's character?

4) Are players allowed to change customs during a set, as part of counterpicking (due to stage, opponent's new character, etc)?

5) How is it decided on which player picks customs first? In the event that counterpicking customs is actually a thing, the second player to pick customs would likely have the upperhand on which customs they should pick based on player one's choice.

6) What is the optimal method to distributing customs across consoles? I'm sure there's a better method than having to manually unlock each custom on each console, but I don't know what that is.

General thoughts. I realize that a lot of these questions may come off as arbitrary and there's no "official" ruleset for customs yet, but it's hazy to me. These could be potential problems in tournaments if not thoroughly addressed. It's also likely that players will just run the same custom set regardless of who their opponent is, outside of the few characters worth counterpicking with a specific custom (or several).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do you play Palutena? Because to me it sounds like you are saying she can't be good without customs. Her moves aren't bad if you use them correctly. My Palutena can actually hang with Diddy, Shiek, Pikachu, and Zero Suit. And it has a huge part to do with the fact that I use her two B moves that you mentioned. So no, it's not a waste of time to learn them, because based on the situation and whether or not customs are legal, you should know how to use characters regular sets. I think the move that isn't useful is down B. Her counter is one of the worst moves, and is probably the worst counter.

You sound mad. She's a secondary of mine. I don't claim to be the master arbiter of anyone's viability, but I think it's unlikely that she will be a significant tournament threat as the metagame progresses without major advancements, whether that's through customs or otherwise. It's great that you're using a character you think you can improve with and make work, though.

 

[Terotrous]

1) What is the likely flow of choosing your character's customs?

Game 1 (assuming Blind Pick is called). Stage determined by stage striking. Both players tell character to judge, then pick character. Both players now tell moveset to judge, then pick moveset.

Game 2 and later. Winner bans stages. Loser chooses stage. Winner picks character. Loser picks character. Winner picks moveset. Loser picks moveset.

2) Do both players announce which character they will play, and then pick customs accordingly?

3) Are customs picked before knowing the opponent's character?

See above, yes and no, respectively.

4) Are players allowed to change customs during a set, as part of counterpicking (due to stage, opponent's new character, etc)?

Yes.

5) How is it decided on which player picks customs first? In the event that counterpicking customs is actually a thing, the second player to pick customs would likely have the upperhand on which customs they should pick based on player one's choice.

Winner picks first specifically because picking last is an advantage.

6) What is the optimal method to distributing customs across consoles? I'm sure there's a better method than having to manually unlock each custom on each console, but I don't know what that is.

3DS, see AA's Custom Moveset Project thread, where he explains how to do it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Terotrous's procedure is correct, but fortunately the specifics don't matter much. Based on experience, it is exceptionally rare to have my moveset preference change based on my opponent's moveset choice. It basically doesn't happen.

 

[ScubaGoomba]

It seems likely that certain movesets will become the standard, so the argument that there are way too many to learn is misguided. Yes, there's a lot to learn, but if the best players tend to use certain specials, these will likely be the ones to learn to anticipate. Standard Diddy might be 1131 (just random numbers, here, no real thought into which is which), so you prepare for it the same way you prepare for Diddy in the non-customs meta. Yes, some players will use different sets, sometimes to specifically catch you off guard or because they've found a way to use it well, but, as the scene develops, the more objectively good choices will be apparent and those will dominate the metagame.

Or, I mean, everything could devolve into chaos and madness, but that's not so bad, is it?

 

[Terotrous]

Terotrous's procedure is correct, but fortunately the specifics don't matter much. Based on experience, it is exceptionally rare to have my moveset preference change based on my opponent's moveset choice. It basically doesn't happen.

Yeah, but that's mostly because most customs moves actually suck. Maybe 40-50% of all customs have any kind of use, most of the others are just inferior versions of other moves. If 100% of customs were viable options it would happen a lot.


The main reason I want to see a Smash 4 Plus happen is so we can revamp the custom moves and make all of them appreciably different and useful. The metagame potential would be crazy. Granted, unlike Brawl, Smash4 isn't a fundamentally broken game so I doubt such a mod would ever see widespread acceptance like PM did.

 

[NairWizard]

On customs... it's a different metagame, which contains elements of the current metagame. I'll admit that my enthusiasm for customs is tempered, for a couple of reasons.

1) They make more characters viable overall, so there are more different kinds of threats that you have to learn to win tournaments. I don't think that variety and balance are healthy for competition; a small cast of 12 viable characters or so is preferable to a cast of 20 or 25 viable characters in my opinion, even though variety is great for spectatorship and for people who aren't going to try to win in tournaments, just play and have fun.

2) There are some really silly custom moves like Kong Cyclone, which polarize a character's moveset (as in, why would DK use any other move to punish when Kong Cyclone is so good in so many situations? etc. it gets annoying to see a character use the same move repeatedly, as you all know with Sonic's spindash or Diddy's d-throw up-air). There are some silly regular specials too, like Pikachu's up-b, but customs-on increases the volume of silly/polarizing customs. Why? Because people aren't going to choose the customs that aren't "OP." It's a process of selection.


That said, I am in support of customs because the majority wants them. I don't think these reasons are enough reason to be against them, really. I'm chill with either thing. I'll win tournaments regardless of what metagame they're in.

@TriTails

Luigi vs. Villager is about patience. Don't take damage from slingshots and Loid, make your way toward Villager steadily. Once you get in, you can deal so much damage that you will get the lead. Just get a couple of grab combos and sit pretty at 50%, while canceling Villager's camping attempts.

Now, to deal with him offensively (when he's trying to get to you when you're in the lead)... he'll use Loid + either slingshot over it or run up to shield or dash attack. His grab is laggy so he won't try to grab you unless he sees that you're shielding too much. In this situation I just jump in the air; Luigi's jump is pretty high. If Villager wants to go that high to use slingshot, you just fastfall land and run in to gain space or hit him with Cyclone because he'll make himself vulnerable; his aerial mobility isn't that great so he won't be getting to you this way overall.

Just stay calm in midrange and work your way in with fireballs vs. loids, n-airs vs. slingshots, and jab vs. Villager up close. His best OOS option is n-air, your jab will beat that easily. Jab once on shield, then walk away just a little to avoid the n-air.

It's not an easy matchup but it's not too hard either.

Also, learn Jumpless Cyclone because otherwise you will get Bowling Balled offstage, and that's no fun!

Do you play Palutena? Because to me it sounds like you are saying she can't be good without customs. Her moves aren't bad if you use them correctly. My Palutena can actually hang with Diddy, Shiek, Pikachu, and Zero Suit. And it has a huge part to do with the fact that I use her two B moves that you mentioned. So no, it's not a waste of time to learn them, because based on the situation and whether or not customs are legal, you should know how to use characters regular sets. I think the move that isn't useful is down B. Her counter is one of the worst moves, and is probably the worst counter.

Palutena is not good without customs, sorry. I use the character a lot with and without customs. The difference is night and day. Just because you can do well with Palutena against the Diddys, Sheiks, Pikachus, and Zero Suits that you face does not mean that Palutena is good. I don't want to lie to you or delude you. The truth is what it is.

 

[HeroMystic]

1) They make more characters viable overall, so there are more different kinds of threats that you have to learn to win tournaments. I don't think that variety and balance are healthy for competition; a small cast of 12 viable characters or so is preferable to a cast of 20 or 25 viable characters in my opinion, even though variety is great for spectatorship and for people who aren't going to try to win in tournaments, just play and have fun.

I'm admittedly stuck pondering by this notion. On one hand, I can see what you mean by having too much variety/characters because you begin to lack consistency (and it can come down to just being counterpick wars). But on the other hand, you're saying variety and balance is not good for competition. So I'm confused by what you mean by this. I'd appreciate if you elaborated.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Palutena is garbage.

Please stop.

On Topic: People only want customs because they don't want 10 years of Sheik/Diddy dominance and they see customs as a fun answer to making more characters viable and the game less stale.

Not saying these folks are incorrect, but it just smacks of running to an easy solution instead of just playing the game and seeing what happens.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I like the idea of having more options for everyone. That's more to learn about the game and more to push to the limits.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I am largely indifferent about playing in the customs metagame, myself; I don't mind it either way. The community will play what they want to play. The fact remains that high-level players aren't really using non-custom Palutena because she doesn't appear to be a very good character, and so she's relatively irrelevant in that ruleset. Customs are still "just an extension" because she is -barely a character- in high-level play in vanilla, and so she's upgraded significantly as to matter, but is still the base character primarily. If having admittance that they're not the same thing will placate you, then, sure, have it; I'm not sure what that line of thinking benefits, though.

A lot of people are rating Wario pretty highly; he got a lot of quality of life changes, though he's still campy and boring. What do you mean "both hits" of Down-B? It only does one hit.

I get a lot of flack for saying he's top 15. Seems the majority of people on here think he's bottom tier or lower mid. I feel the character is vastly under used in tourney so people just think he sucks. What I'm worried about is if we allow customs what's warios status gonna be. Is he going to go from "bottom or mid tier" even further. Seems that he doesn't have good customs while most the other characterd have something that benefits them in some way.

 

[Asdioh]

Every argument I've ever seen against customs is complete garbodor and I wish people would stop. Especially the arguments against using them at Evo. "It's not the right time!" is nonsense. Looking at Zero's twitter is depressing, because he has a lot of influence, and he's against it. The time between now and Evo is LONGER than the time between now and the game's release... and on top of that, customs have always existed. They didn't just suddenly appear out of thin air now that Evo's thinking of using them.

I haven't seen

EVEN

ONE

EXAMPLE

of a tournament going poorly because of customs. In fact, I've seen the opposite.


And then there was Apex, where lovely people were bored with Smash 4 finals, despite the game being new. I daresay it can't get WORSE than that.

1) They make more characters viable overall, so there are more different kinds of threats that you have to learn to win tournaments. I don't think that variety and balance are healthy for competition; a small cast of 12 viable characters or so is preferable to a cast of 20 or 25 viable characters in my opinion, even though variety is great for spectatorship and for people who aren't going to try to win in tournaments, just play and have fun.

I'd be fine with a cast of 51 viable characters, 52 when Mewtwo's out.

In the long run, more viable characters is better. Early on in the game's life, you might lose to things you don't understand fully. That happens in literally every fighting game, often even late in the game's life.

Plus, it's just hella rude to say to fans of certain characters "sorry, I don't want your character to be viable."

On Topic: People only want customs because they don't want 10 years of Sheik/Diddy dominance and they see customs as a fun answer to making more characters viable and the game less stale.

Not saying these folks are incorrect, but it just smacks of running to an easy solution instead of just playing the game and seeing what happens.

I'd argue that playing with customs ON is "just playing the game."

 

[Rocken Nova]

I think customs make the game more fun for everyone. I understand that some people are against it, but it gives more variety to each character. It creates multiple ways to play a single character and makes different characters more viable. It gives characters different kill moves and sometimes even super armor.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

On Topic: People only want customs because they don't want 10 years of Sheik/Diddy dominance and they see customs as a fun answer to making more characters viable and the game less stale.

Not saying these folks are incorrect, but it just smacks of running to an easy solution instead of just playing the game and seeing what happens.

I never gave a **** about Diddy and Sheik to start with. Strong, near-braindead characters (especially in the case of Diddy) exist in just about every fighter ever except for Kumite and Nidhogg. But, a lot of people are propagating hysterics and brokenness for these characters and denigrating the viability of others in regards to them. To me, that's a ****ing easier dismissal in a brand new game than looking to other options. Not pointing fingers at you, Emblem Lord, I'm just sorta agreeing.

That said, I've been for customs from the get-go. Absolutely nothing wrong with enriching a character's movepool with more options. My biggest problem with them has been rectified, which was the inability to streamline their incorporation. No excuse now, no reason NOT to, since it's really easy to set up thanks to the efforts of the community.

Smooth Criminal

 

[mimgrim]

Palutena is garbage.

Please stop.

On Topic: People only want customs because they don't want 10 years of Sheik/Diddy dominance and they see customs as a fun answer to making more characters viable and the game less stale.

Not saying these folks are incorrect, but it just smacks of running to an easy solution instead of just playing the game and seeing what happens.

Realistically speaking, I don't see customs fixing Sheik/Diddy/Insertwhatevercharacteryouthinkistoptierinnocustomshere dominance as those characters are already good for a reason and will still remain good and strong in a customs on environment regardless. It could potentially bring some more characters up to their potential but that is a what-if and doesn't have the data to come to any conclusive conclusions and everything else is theory crafting.

I want customs for pretty much the same reason @ TheReflexWonder stated.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

My real care for customs is Paletuna and Miis being thrust into the same boat despite having every move be its own unique identity instead of a variation for their base.

It irks me too see such trivialities especially when any of those moves could've been placed number 1 in the slot, but that's the train of thought used to bar them.

Customs as a whole aren't magical things, the majority of your kit is still normals.
Imbalance still runs around.

 

[NairWizard]

I'm admittedly stuck pondering by this notion. On one hand, I can see what you mean by having too much variety/characters because you begin to lack consistency (and it can come down to just being counterpick wars). But on the other hand, you're saying variety and balance is not good for competition. So I'm confused by what you mean by this. I'd appreciate if you elaborated.

As a game evolves, I like seeing deep matchup knowledge matter. We've seen Fox vs. Marth and Fox vs. Sheik in Melee tons of times, but the advancements made by each side between tournaments make it more and more interesting every time I see it. In a cast with 12 different characters, you get repeated matchups a lot, and top players learning and relearning matchups at every major. In a cast with 50 characters with equal player distribution, the depth of knowledge (while still important) is replaced at least somewhat by breadth of knowledge.

Thinkaman has said something like this before, but as a computer science/math guy, I'll put it in these terms as I think of it in the same way: in a bound complexity space, breadth is inversely proportional to depth.

Plus, it's just hella rude to say to fans of certain characters "sorry, I don't want your character to be viable.

It would be nice if people would realize that there are two sides to every argument, including customs, and not become so emotionally charged about the issue.

The purpose of competition isn't solely to please spectators and make fans of Nintendo characters happy. The purpose of competition is also to win. Customs make it harder to win consistently as there are more variables; they also shift the focus of the game slightly away from matchup knowledge and more toward adaptability and learning on the fly (or disproportionate time invested learning matchups). There is a tradeoff. Is it worthwhile?

Sure, if that's what you want from your competition, but it may not be what I want or what is indeed good for competitors. My ideal fighting game has 12 characters; in my mind, less is too much depth, and more is too little. From my perspective, it would be nice if competitive smash also just had that many, and not 51--but since it does have 51, and there are so many players that want customs, I'm still in support of them.

But this arrogant dismissal by proponents of custom moves who believe that their position is logically perfect and that any line of counterargument is untenable is very grating. Not everyone is trying to take your customs away from you. We're just trying to have a discussion.

I'm referring specifically to "every argument is garbodor," which is "hella rude."

Imo.

edit: last post from me on the subject though. Emotionally heated discussions are not my cup of tea.

 

[Rockaphin]

Sheesh, from one derail to another.
Anyway I think that Villager's meta is really starved. It's probably because we lack one really powerful player who goes to tournaments and kicks butt but...isn't this true fir everone?

I'm hoping to see Salem in more tournaments. He has a sick Villager(I'm sure you're aware of this).