Character Competitive Impressions

[Antonykun]

1) Our worst matchups is Sheik... Enough said

I'm like 99% sure Sheik is Sheik's worst Matchup

 

[Judo777]

I think people don't realize Yoshi's fundamental flaws in relation to the top tiers.
I played Yoshi for around 4 months (3ds and until a month ago) and i've recently dropped him because of that.

1) Our worst matchups is Sheik... Enough said
2) Think about every time you are close to your opponent and you both shield or w/e, Yoshi always lose in this situation because he can't grab. The best option Yoshi has in that situation is Jump OOS retreating/forward nair.
3) Being unable to grab in this grab heavy metagame sucks. Every top tier get really close to you and Yoshi has a hard time at really close range
4) The punish game of yoshi is laughable compared to other tops or even high tier. If an opponent miss a tether grab or something your biggest "combos" will do usually around 20%. Compare that to Luigi, Pikachu, Sheik etc...
5) Yoshi has great edgeguarding tools but you have to know that you are always at risk of being footstooled if you go offstage. Getting footstooled = Autodeath
6) The fact that Yoshi can't grab make shielding really good against him. He also doesnt have a lot of options that are safe on shield. Of course you can command grab but its punishable if missed and doesnt do a lot of damage early, and even late it does what... 20 damage with 2 up smash once the opponent is in the egg...

Thats only a couple of points that imo make Yoshi struggle in high tier format. @ Sinister Slush Could maybe add more to that.

1) Idk about Sheik being his worst MU. Don't play Yoshi myself.
2) Not having a shield grab is not the end of the world lol. Zss doesn't have a very good shield grab either (neither does greninja lol 14 frames). Being able to jump OoS is a HUGE plus especially given his amazing air speed.
3) Yoshis close game is actually pretty good this time around. His jab is pretty good, and his tilts combo into stuff.
4) I'd agree for the most part, although dair is a pretty amazing punish.
5) Everybody in the game auto dies if they get footstooled out of their DJ (except like Villager and the infinite upB recovery characters, most of which aren't top tier). Just use the Yoshi tactics from last game and use aerials as your edge guarding to protect against footstools (can't be footstooled during any aerial animation).
6) Historically few characters have a lot of safe moves on shield. Pretty sure most of Yoshis grounded moves are safe on shield. Yoshi can grab you just have to use it as a mixup instead of as the primary option (like most characters are doing). Yoshi is gonna have to play a traditional poke and hit and run play style in this game (not too different from last game). At least he can make you respect some of his grounded options now.

@Post above I am VERY willing to bet Sheik is not her own worst MU lol.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I've said so much negative about Yoshi in this thread already to the point I would've been beheaded if it were the medieval times cause rantings of a crazy witch possibly.

 

[Kofu]

I'm like 99% sure Sheik is Sheik's worst Matchup

He was saying Sheik is Yoshi's worst MU, not the other way around.

 

[Antonykun]

He was saying Sheik is Yoshi's worst MU, not the other way around.

I'm saying that Sheik is everyone's worst Matchup, Even Sheik. (hyperbole obviously)

 

[Yokoblue]

1) Idk about Sheik being his worst MU. Don't play Yoshi myself.
2) Not having a shield grab is not the end of the world lol. Zss doesn't have a very good shield grab either (neither does greninja lol 14 frames). Being able to jump OoS is a HUGE plus especially given his amazing air speed.
3) Yoshis close game is actually pretty good this time around. His jab is pretty good, and his tilts combo into stuff.
4) I'd agree for the most part, although dair is a pretty amazing punish.
5) Everybody in the game auto dies if they get footstooled out of their DJ (except like Villager and the infinite upB recovery characters, most of which aren't top tier). Just use the Yoshi tactics from last game and use aerials as your edge guarding to protect against footstools (can't be footstooled during any aerial animation).
6) Historically few characters have a lot of safe moves on shield. Pretty sure most of Yoshis grounded moves are safe on shield. Yoshi can grab you just have to use it as a mixup instead of as the primary option (like most characters are doing). Yoshi is gonna have to play a traditional poke and hit and run play style in this game (not too different from last game). At least he can make you respect some of his grounded options now.

@Post above I am VERY willing to bet Sheik is not her own worst MU lol.

2) ZSS has other tools to make up for it. Good combo games, A LOT of things guaranteed on hit (think paralize) and really early kill potential (think 40%). I think Nairo kill his opponent around 50% in around half their game.

3) The tilt that leads into other thing is Uptilt and its startup lag is "okayish". Dtilt and ftilt doesnt lead into anything.
4) Dair is amazing punish, i'll give you that.
5) Give you that one too
6) The fact that opponent can shield all day because of no grab make it harder for Yoshi to get in. Like you said a lot of characters don't have a lot of things safe on shield but at least they can dash grab a lot to punish overuse of the shield. Yoshi can't. I know you can do mix up etc but you have to realize that if you miss 1 dash grab, its 20-30% you are getting or your stock if you are around 100%.

I'm not saying Yoshi is bad by any means, I'm just saying hes not good enough to compete at higher level top/high tier heavy metagame. Sadly, custom moves don't help him either... Only 1 is "good"

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You can still SDI out of it more often than I'd like. Don't most moves of this type have some of the hits pull you inward to make them link better? It really doesn't seem like her Uair does.



I feel like it's usually the opponent who gets to choose, unfortunately.



I think the deadly dtilt basically just forces you to respect her more. Like sure, Screw Attack OOS is decently threatening now, but it doesn't kill until absurdly high percents. Having the ability to spotdodge into DTilt would force you to respect her a lot more, and zoning characters always want you to respect them because that's how they set up their zoning.

See also Megaman UTilt, which serves the same purpose, but does it much better.



I kinda feel like she's supposed to be a zoner (and with customs she can be), she just doesn't do it all that well. If we're just looking to play footsies / control space there's a lot of people who would do it better.

her u air can be sdi's but its way harder to do so that you make it to be her whole body accept the head is the hit box and rising u air's bring u into the body.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fsmash
Usmash
Dsmash
Dash Attack
Nair
Fair
Bair
Uair
Dair
Grab/Dash Grab/Pivot Grab
Neutral B
Side B
Up B
Down B


This is the standard fare of moves that a character has in a match, not even counting things like character specific stats and advance techniques.

51 characters (currently until Mewtwo shows up) = 51 x 18 = 918 moves total.

Knowing how each of these moves function is pretty much required to be exceptionally good at a competitive level. However, it isn't completely necessary. Because not every single move in the game is as good as the rest. And not every single character is as good as the rest. An example, Ganondorf's Utilt is practically useless. King DeDeDe's Fsmash is also slow as heck. Meta Knight's jab is incredibly terrible. Little Mac's aerials, while they can sometimes be useful, are otherwise pretty niche and aren't the main focus of his gameplan.

So what does all of this mean? Basically, while there might be 918 standard moves and it would be best to learn them all, you don't necessarily need to learn all of them because some of those moves simply aren't good, or aren't a part of that character's gameplan. And even then, not all characters are going to be used at the competitive level, and this drastically cuts the 918 number down by a lot. Let's just say nearly 75% as an example. So that's about ~700 moves or so.


This also applies to custom moves as well. If we don't count the standard specials that everyone is familiar with, we have:

51 characters (currently until Mewtwo shows up) = 51 x 8 = 408 custom moves.

Just like the characters and standard moves, knowing how each of these moves function is pretty much required to be exceptionally good at the custom competitive level. But again, it isn't completely necessary. Because not every single custom move in the game is as good as the rest. And not every single character is as good as the rest (although customs help bridge the gaps between the characters). Other than Blitz Pound, do you think any of Jigglypuff's other customs are worthwhile at all? What about Dr. Mario or Luigi's clothsline tornados? Is anyone seriously going to pick Mario's giant fireballs over his fast fireballs or standard fireballs? And for characters like Villager, is he seriously going to pick any version of his Down B other than Counter Timber? What about reflector moves? Some of them focus on causing damage, and others actually focus on absorbing/reflecting projectiles, and therefore they are extremely MU dependent.

Of those 408 moves, you're probably only going to need to learn about half of them. ~200 custom moves total.



Now then, here's the problem:

In comparison to the amount of standard moves you actually need to learn in standard competitive play, the amount of custom moves you actually need to learn for a customs environment is probably going to equate for less than a third of the moves you have already learned/are learning/need to learn about.

If you combine the total of estimated standard moves to learn with the estimated custom moves to learn, that number ends up being around 900. Oh wait, that number seems familiar. That would have been around the same amount of standard moves someone would have to learn competitively if all moves/characters could be used with equal success.

Anyone who complains about there being too many custom moves to learn/remember is using a poor excuse, and they are not truly thinking competitively.

It's laziness. Pure and simple. You cannot seriously tell me that you can't successfully learn about these moves in the 21st century when we have internet, and Youtube. And if your job/lifestyle/etc is too busy to allocate time into doing that, then what are you doing here anyways? Why are you trying to play competitively if you are too busy to watch a video on youtube a single time in order to understand how these moves work?

Even then, you can just watch tournament videos as normal. And if there's videos of a custom tournament with other people using them, you don't necessarily have to learn about them by actually playing the game. Because you can just watch other people use them in order to understand how they work effectively, and how they work in general.



I bet that most of you watch customless tournament videos on Youtube already, and learning/taking notes from those videos. What difference does it make if customs are added to the mix? Is it seriously THAT hard to learn a couple of extra moves/strategies?


The answer is no.

You have successfully changed my mind about customs. Please teach your wizardry.

 

[Timbers]

But it won't get stunted......because after someone loses because they didn't know the ins andouts of a MU, they will THEN go and study the MU and learn it (ideally). At high levels of play, I'm not going to run into a brand new character main every single tournament, and when an outlier with an unfamiliar character does finally proceed through the bracket to reach me (the unnamed high level player) and happens to beat me, then he gets his one surprise victory, and I hit the lab and study that crap.

As a result the ignorance factor won't be as prevalent (maybe not at all) next time, problem solved.

The reason this doesn't play out as clear cut in actual tournament play is because skill levels aren't as equal as people like to believe at high levels. So X player is WAAAYYYY better than Y player and doesn't know crap about the other persons character but skates by due to his superior talent and or character.

There's nothing you can read or watch or really do that is as effective at learning a matchup than just playing it out with someone who pushes the character to their best. You're not going to best the "unfamiliar character" by doing anything but grinding matches against people who play that said character at a decently high level. And it's a lot harder to find 50~ players at that level than just 12~. Also time plays a huge factor here. The time spent on learning 50 matchups at a high level will take much longer than 12 matchups. The time you saved from only learning 12 matchups could then be poured into perfecting those 12 matchups even further.

Let me put it this way. Say you live in a gaming house with 3 other people and they all play Diddy. You guys grind it out for a weekend and play each other. After that weekend is over, you come away with extensive knowledge of the Diddy matchup from 3 different playstyles. Now assume it's the same house again with those 3 other people. Except now they each play Diddy, Sheik, and Sonic respectively. You guys still play all weekend, and you get some experience against those 3 characters. You did get some experience against Diddy, but only a third of the experience that you would have gotten from the first scenario. Naturally, the first scenario leaves you with a much higher understanding and confidence against Diddy.

Specific matchups will develop more slowly in a situation where your character opponents are spread thin due to getting less direct experience per character. I don't think this is a counter argument to customs play, by the way. I don't think 50 characters are going to be viable with customs on, either. The only thing to take away from this is that a smaller roster size reaps tons of matchup experience, and promotes highly technical and confident play.

 

[meleebrawler]

Why would anyone WANT to have fewer capable characters in their game?
How would you advertise such a game unless it was a budget title?
Like honestly, how can you make having less characters a selling point?

Having fewer characters might result in faster advancement of techniques and more confident play,
but it also makes the game more niche and ultimately harder to push competitively for a long time.
Melee didn't get where it is today so easily.

Edit: Also, I don't believe the meme "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination" arose
out of appreciation for the narrow selection of viable characters in Melee.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Palutena is garbage.

Please stop.

On Topic: People only want customs because they don't want 10 years of Sheik/Diddy dominance and they see customs as a fun answer to making more characters viable and the game less stale.

Not saying these folks are incorrect, but it just smacks of running to an easy solution instead of just playing the game and seeing what happens.

I believe it adds more diversity to the metagame. I think the game shouldn't be as restrictive as it is. Whether it's stages or customs. We should allow the metagame to develop and then get rid of the truly degenerative elements.

For the people complaining about learning custom moves I believe ninjalink showcases all of them on his YouTube channel. So it's already out there.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I believe it adds more diversity to the metagame. I think the game shouldn't be as restrictive as it is. Whether it's stages or customs. We should allow the metagame to develop and then get rid of the truly degenerative elements.

For the people complaining about learning custom moves I believe ninjalink showcases all of them on his YouTube channel. So it's already out there.

Nairo has a playlist too available here. They're more concise than NinjaLink's.

 

[Conda]

There's nothing you can read or watch or really do that is as effective at learning a matchup than just playing it out with someone who pushes the character to their best. You're not going to best the "unfamiliar character" by doing anything but grinding matches against people who play that said character at a decently high level. And it's a lot harder to find 50~ players at that level than just 12~. Also time plays a huge factor here. The time spent on learning 50 matchups at a high level will take much longer than 12 matchups. The time you saved from only learning 12 matchups could then be poured into perfecting those 12 matchups even further.

Let me put it this way. Say you live in a gaming house with 3 other people and they all play Diddy. You guys grind it out for a weekend and play each other. After that weekend is over, you come away with extensive knowledge of the Diddy matchup from 3 different playstyles. Now assume it's the same house again with those 3 other people. Except now they each play Diddy, Sheik, and Sonic respectively. You guys still play all weekend, and you get some experience against those 3 characters. You did get some experience against Diddy, but only a third of the experience that you would have gotten from the first scenario. Naturally, the first scenario leaves you with a much higher understanding and confidence against Diddy.

Specific matchups will develop more slowly in a situation where your character opponents are spread thin due to getting less direct experience per character. I don't think this is a counter argument to customs play, by the way. I don't think 50 characters are going to be viable with customs on, either. The only thing to take away from this is that a smaller roster size reaps tons of matchup experience, and promotes highly technical and confident play.

Right, it's the tactical/strategic difference that is a clear difference between Starcraft and LoL/DOTA. In LoL/DOTA the vast amount of possible team makeups make adaptation and knowledge a very valuable skillset. In SC2, it's more about figuring out what your opponent is doing out of a logically limited number of options - you use scouted intel to figure this out during the course of a match, among other things. But you always know you're facing 1 of 3 races.

Competitive games can have widely different skillsets in the forefront of the metagame. Smash 4 definitely has the DOTA/LoL element of 'wide character variety, and a stern requirement for vast game knowledge'. That's not a 'bad' thing, and trying to argue that it is indicates more of a desire that Smash 4 be different solely due to personal preference, and nothing else.

 

[|RK|]

Palutena is garbage.

Please stop.

On Topic: People only want customs because they don't want 10 years of Sheik/Diddy dominance and they see customs as a fun answer to making more characters viable and the game less stale.

Not saying these folks are incorrect, but it just smacks of running to an easy solution instead of just playing the game and seeing what happens.

On one hand, I see what you're saying. That's probably the reason that it's gained traction recently. But it has been an idea since the beginning, just more in the background. Personally, I don't mind either way. But as a Kirby main, it definitely benefits me, lol. As a Lucario main, eh. As a Samus secondary, yes.

 

[Nobie]

Does anyone else find it interesting to see people's optimism gradually fade, only to be replaced by the idea that more and more characters are hopeless?

It's like slowly watching a smile turn into a frown.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I believe we should just let the Evo Customs thing happen and we'll go from there. Once we see a well-known tournament use customs, we'll see what changes it has on the meta. Speculation doesn't get us very far as things in theory are different than in practice. Don't believe me? Just watch! look at Perfect Pivoting. Sure, when it was first discovered, people called it the new wavedashing. Now? It's not nearly as widely used as wavedashing and it's difficult to use in the heat of the moment. So I think it's fine to discuss customs and whatnot (because let's face it, it's new and exciting) but we should keep in mind that theory ≠ practice.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I believe we should just let the Evo Customs thing happen and we'll go from there. Once we see a well-known tournament use customs, we'll see what changes it has on the meta. Speculation doesn't get us very far as things in theory are different than in practice. Don't believe me? Just watch! look at Perfect Pivoting. Sure, when it was first discovered, people called it the new wavedashing. Now? It's not nearly as widely used as wavedashing and it's difficult to use in the heat of the moment. So I think it's fine to discuss customs and whatnot (because let's face it, it's new and exciting) but we should keep in mind that theory ≠ practice.

...which is why there's no time like the present!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

2) Think about every time you are close to your opponent and you both shield or w/e, Yoshi always lose in this situation because he can't grab. The best option Yoshi has in that situation is Jump OOS retreating/forward nair.

Okay the hyperbole is getting out of control. Yoshi's grab is perfectly fine, but even Pac-Man's grab is still usable in some situations. Alternatively you can poke their shield with something like Dtilt, which can't be shield grabbed... unless the opponent also has a ranged grab, like Yoshi's.

3) Being unable to grab in this grab heavy metagame sucks. Every top tier get really close to you and Yoshi has a hard time at really close range

Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, etc.

4) The punish game of yoshi is laughable compared to other tops or even high tier. If an opponent miss a tether grab or something your biggest "combos" will do usually around 20%. Compare that to Luigi, Pikachu, Sheik etc...

You should be able to get a bit more than that with UTilt or command grab, or you can just take a Forward smash for decent damage and stage position. Also, Yoshi builds damage over time. He may not have quite as much reward on hit but he has far better zoning than those characters do.

5) Yoshi has great edgeguarding tools but you have to know that you are always at risk of being footstooled if you go offstage. Getting footstooled = Autodeath

So don't attempt to edgeguard from underneath your opponent? You should never really be in a place to get footstooled when edgeguarding, unless the opponent is recovering very high and in that situation you can survive the footstool if it happens.

6) The fact that Yoshi can't grab make shielding really good against him. He also doesnt have a lot of options that are safe on shield. Of course you can command grab but its punishable if missed and doesnt do a lot of damage early, and even late it does what... 20 damage with 2 up smash once the opponent is in the egg...

Dair eats shields, downB can break them, and of course Yoshi has a command grab. It actually does like 20 damage even for a single upsmash, don't forget the act of putting them in the egg also does damage. It also forces the opponent to recover in the air, giving you stage position and a juggle opportunity. If your opponent is going to shield start discouraging them from doing it.

her u air can be sdi's but its way harder to do so that you make it to be her whole body accept the head is the hit box and rising u air's bring u into the body.

It doesn't really seem that hard since her body actually gets pretty narrow during the attack. I suppose you could try hitting with her body rather than her toes, but that's putting you at risk of a trade.

 

[|RK|]

On the note of customs... I decided to look at Nairo's videos, and I wanted to know: how good is Wii Fit Trainer's Steady Breathing, exactly? It seems like it can give a huge advantage when WFT is on the wire.

 

[Antonykun]

Is anyone here

Does anyone else find it interesting to see people's optimism gradually fade, only to be replaced by the idea that more and more characters are hopeless?

It's like slowly watching a smile turn into a frown.

That sounds like Mii and Swordfighter

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's only true if the complexity is bound, though, and there's currently no evidence to suggest that it is.


Also, consider Street Fighter 4, which has about as many characters as Smash4, and almost all of them are viable. No one accuses that game of not being competitive and having a vibrant metagame.


That's not to say I'm 100% totally onboard with customs, but I support everyone being viable.

SF4 recieved an ENTIRE METAGAME overhaul because the DEVELOPERS themselves recognized they made a mistake. They nerfed how powerful wake-up/knockdown traps are so the game became less about set-play and now its mostly about pure fundamentals and how good you are at neutral.

Do you foresee Nintendo every saying,"whoops our bad. Let's nerf rolls a bit, modify hitstun and make it so you can push people off the ledge again while they shield."

I don't see it happening.

For the record I'm for customs. Because they are bad ass and add more options. Not because it's the answer to the "disease" known as imbalance as many people wish them to be. (Imbalance is a part of games. If you aren't prepared for it then don't play fighters.)

 

[Terotrous]

SF4 recieved an ENTIRE METAGAME overhaul because the DEVELOPERS themselves recognized they made a mistake. They nerfed how powerful wake-up/knockdown traps are so the game became less about set-play and now its mostly about pure fundamentals and how good you are at neutral.

True, but I don't really see how that's relevant to the point I was making about having a lot of the cast be viable.

Do you foresee Nintendo every saying,"whoops our bad. Let's nerf rolls a bit, modify hitstun and make it so you can push people off the ledge again while they shield."

I don't see it happening.

They pretty much already did this with Brawl -> Smash4. "Let's totally rethink ledge mechanics, change airdodges, change hitstun, etc".

Will it happen in a patch? I'm sceptical. In the next game? Quite possibly.


Actually, come to think about it, the huge metagame change you were talking about was Delayed Wakeup, which is really just a single new mechanic. Smash4 already did have a patch that changed Vectoring to DI, a comparably major change.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I don't see an overhaul happening unless we have something as terrible as the vortex options that AE 2012 had. All we can do is work around such things. But maybe they can patch some of the characters to work better with the mechanics and such.

 

[Timbers]

Right, it's the tactical/strategic difference that is a clear difference between Starcraft and LoL/DOTA. In LoL/DOTA the vast amount of possible team makeups make adaptation and knowledge a very valuable skillset. In SC2, it's more about figuring out what your opponent is doing out of a logically limited number of options - you use scouted intel to figure this out during the course of a match, among other things. But you always know you're facing 1 of 3 races.

Competitive games can have widely different skillsets in the forefront of the metagame. Smash 4 definitely has the DOTA/LoL element of 'wide character variety, and a stern requirement for vast game knowledge'.

Interesting metaphor. I haven't played LoL in about a year, but when I did play it certainly seemed like surface knowledge of characters. Most characters weren't viable, and were considered "troll picks." Most characters were so bad that you could pick one of the few "top tier" lanes and just faceroll them without any knowledge of the opponent (the last time I played, Mundo/Shyvana/Renekton were the three top laners ever seen and invalidated the rest of the potential top lane picks).

I suppose Melee is similar in this regard. A large cast that is invalidated and overwhelmed by several, but those several characters are all incredibly good, and when pitted against each other, make for a great competitive game.

Hopefully LoL has changed now, but at that time it felt incredibly imbalanced and favored maybe only 15-20% of the cast.

That's not a 'bad' thing, and trying to argue that it is indicates more of a desire that Smash 4 be different solely due to personal preference, and nothing else.

Yep and I'm glad that no one has attempted to argue this.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Okay the hyperbole is getting out of control. Yoshi's grab is perfectly fine, but even Pac-Man's grab is still usable in some situations. Alternatively you can poke their shield with something like Dtilt, which can't be shield grabbed... unless the opponent also has a ranged grab, like Yoshi's.



Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, etc.



You should be able to get a bit more than that with UTilt or command grab, or you can just take a Forward smash for decent damage and stage position. Also, Yoshi builds damage over time. He may not have quite as much reward on hit but he has far better zoning than those characters do.



So don't attempt to edgeguard from underneath your opponent? You should never really be in a place to get footstooled when edgeguarding, unless the opponent is recovering very high and in that situation you can survive the footstool if it happens.



Dair eats shields, downB can break them, and of course Yoshi has a command grab. It actually does like 20 damage even for a single upsmash, don't forget the act of putting them in the egg also does damage. It also forces the opponent to recover in the air, giving you stage position and a juggle opportunity. If your opponent is going to shield start discouraging them from doing it.



It doesn't really seem that hard since her body actually gets pretty narrow during the attack. I suppose you could try hitting with her body rather than her toes, but that's putting you at risk of a trade.

I agree. I think yoshi has nice options. I mained him for a bit. My hardest problem with yoshi personally was finding ways to kill which is odd because he has so many options to do that. I gradually went back to my brawl main which is wario and I personally feel wario is better than yoshi and I have a much easier time landing kills with wario.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't see an overhaul happening unless we have something as terrible as the vortex options that AE 2012 had. All we can do is work around such things. But maybe they can patch some of the characters to work better with the mechanics and such.

I don't think vortex were the worst things ever. It's just the characters that they were attached to. So a lot of times characters would be able to abise you on knockdown but when you knocked them down you couldn't cover all of their options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Set-play is the worst thing ever.

Melee has alot of set-play btw.

 

[Antonykun]

Set-play is the worst thing ever.

Melee has alot of set-play btw.

Excuse my newness but whats set-play excatly and why is it the worst thing ever?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Excuse my newness but whats set-play excatly and why is it the worst thing ever?

I'm not sure how it works in melee. But in sf once you land a knockdown you get a canned set up that you can run.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I'm still scared from AE having to fight for my life with rose. But that's besides the point. My next question is how does ike fair in this game?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Excuse my newness but whats set-play excatly and why is it the worst thing ever?

You literally auto-pilot a set-up and no matter what your opponent does they have one option that won't get them killed, but that one option leaves you at advantage and you can keep rushing them down while they block.

Melee set-up play revolved mostly around tech chase set-ups. Fox, CF and Marth did not give a damn how you teched or rolled in that situation. They could get free grabs every time. Marth is also king of set-up play in edgeguarding scenarios. Watch M2K's Marth.

Falco is...Falco. Very dominant set-play.

Set-play rewards strong frame data and engine manipulation/understanding. Not actual thinking.

That's why it's the worst thing ever.

 

[RWB]

On the whole Mii Size topic we had earlier, I got some input from DaPuffster!

Hmm, well with some testing I've concluded that unlike other special moves that lose distance when making a shorter mii, Helicopter Kick does NOT lose the amount of distance it travels via Horizontally even with the smallest fighter.

This pretty much excludes tall miis as a viable option.

IMO the best option that we can choose is probably in-between Normal sized and the smallest size. I find that the smallest size can be TOO small, and it causes us to lose a lot of range, something we need against characters like Sheik. Because the attacks have less cool down that allows us to get more combos into helicopter kick, and since Helicopter Kick's distance is not nerfed by the mii's size its almost a straight upgrade, the only thing of my concern is how much knockback we end up losing. I'll have to do further testing on that...

I should also note that shorter brawlers dealing less damage is a good thing for us due to the fact that we rely on having our opponents at 40-70% to nab the early Helicopter Kick kill, the less damage we do, the more opportunities we have to seize this moment. This is also partially why I see Shotput to not be very effective.

So my final verdict for now for the best Mii brawler size is
Semi-Short/Semi-Thin

 

[Antonykun]

You literally auto-pilot a set-up and no matter what your opponent does they have one option that won't get them killed, but that one option leaves you at advantage and you can keep rushing them down while they block.

Melee set-up play revolved mostly around tech chase set-ups. Fox, CF and Marth did not give a damn how you teched or rolled in that situation. They could get free grabs every time. Marth is also king of set-up play in edgeguarding scenarios. Watch M2K's Marth.

Falco is...Falco. Very dominant set-play.

Set-play rewards strong frame data and engine manipulation/understanding. Not actual thinking.

That's why it's the worst thing ever.

No wonder i hated watching AE.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm a Street Fighter x Tekken man myself. Has everything I love about fighters and what I feel makes them great.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm a Street Fighter x Tekken man myself. Has everything I love about fighters and what I feel makes them great.

Imma say this at the cost of possibly derailing the thread (again) but can you explain? I always love to hear why people love certain things, its one of the reasons why I hound this thread.

 

[Runic_SSB]

On the whole Mii Size topic we had earlier, I got some input from DaPuffster!

I thought the whole Mii Size discussion ended immediately when it was obvious that short/thin was the best.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Imma say this at the cost of possibly derailing the thread (again) but can you explain? I always love to hear why people love certain things, its one of the reasons why I hound this thread.

Hit a button stupidly during footsies and you die for it. SFxT keeps it nice and simple.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I thought the whole Mii Size discussion ended immediately when it was obvious that short/thin was the best.

Actually its Semi-short/Semi-Thin you want to have, aka in between the smallest and the middle. Most people are under the impression that there are only 3 different sizes, but I believe there is 5? Going too small is actually a bad thing because you lose distance on things like feint jump and range in general. So choosing semi-short/semi-thin makes it well, more balanced and takes the positive things from both sides.

 

[Antonykun]

Hit a button stupidly during footsies and you die for it. SFxT keeps it nice and simple.

Wow that was like the most Marth main thing I heard a Marth Main say in a while.

 

[RWB]

Actually its Semi-short/Semi-Thin you want to have, aka in between the smallest and the middle. Most people are under the impression that there are only 3 different sizes, but I believe there is 5? Going too small is actually a bad thing because you lose distance on things like feint jump and range in general. So choosing semi-short/semi-thin makes it well, more balanced and takes the positive things from both sides.

As far as I've heard, there's far more heights than that- 1 for each snap you make on the height meter(49, if i remember right!), but we're better of going by the 5 available height lines in the Mii creator.