Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

I don't think vortex were the worst things ever. It's just the characters that they were attached to. So a lot of times characters would be able to abise you on knockdown but when you knocked them down you couldn't cover all of their options.

The problem with Vortex is that you're basically put into a repeated set of situations where you have to guess, and there's no skill involved in guessing right. A mix-up situation is a reasonable reward for gaining positional advantage (note that Smash has this), but you shouldn't get a continuous sequence of them until the opponent guesses right. Particularly when the damage output for each incorrect guess is so high, as it is in some versions of SF4. Three wrong guesses (which is only a 1/8 chance) and you've basically lost the round with some characters.

I'm a Street Fighter x Tekken man myself. Has everything I love about fighters and what I feel makes them great.

I was a strong supporter of SFxT 1.0. It was a pretty thoughtful game where you had to manage your switches and it had good footsies / neutral play without being super dependent on vortex. However, all the SF4-morons were like "this game has too many timeouts! We don't want to have to think about how to use two characters at once!" and eventually Capcom relented and basically ruined the game by taking out everything that was good about it. It's now a very vortex-heavy game and when you switch doesn't matter because you effectively never regain any health no matter how long you sit out. One of the worst patches I've ever seen.

 

[Runic_SSB]

I already have my Mii right under where it would start to count as medium for height, but does it really make a difference with weight as well?

 

[RWB]

I already have my Mii right under where it would start to count as medium for height, but does it really make a difference with weight as well?

Think it does, honestly.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The problem with Vortex is that you're basically put into a repeated set of situations where you have to guess, and there's no skill involved in guessing right. A mix-up situation is a reasonable reward for gaining positional advantage (note that Smash has this), but you shouldn't get a continuous sequence of them until the opponent guesses right. Particularly when the damage output for each incorrect guess is so high, as it is in some versions of SF4. Three wrong guesses (which is only a 1/8 chance) and you've basically lost the round with some characters.



I was a strong supporter of SFxT 1.0. It was a pretty thoughtful game where you had to manage your switches and it had good footsies / neutral play without being super dependent on vortex. However, all the SF4-morons were like "this game has too many timeouts! We don't want to have to think about how to use two characters at once!" and eventually Capcom relented and basically ruined the game by taking out everything that was good about it. It's now a very vortex-heavy game and when you switch doesn't matter because you effectively never regain any health no matter how long you sit out. One of the worst patches I've ever seen.

I know what you're saying but ambiguous crossup or unblockables was limited to a select few. Even a character like vega could throw you into a vortex type of situation if he got ex izuna drop. The problem I saw it was some characters Akuma didn't really care while at tge same time throwing you into their own vortex. Although I'll concede that Cammy was a bit ridiculous. Then there was also OS that made the vortex even harder to escape. ....no one cried about dee jays vortex.

But in sm4sh I think ledge trapling is probably the closest you're going to get to a vortex.

 

[Conda]

Interesting discussions about other fighters but lets bring it back on topic.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The problem with Vortex is that you're basically put into a repeated set of situations where you have to guess, and there's no skill involved in guessing right. A mix-up situation is a reasonable reward for gaining positional advantage (note that Smash has this), but you shouldn't get a continuous sequence of them until the opponent guesses right. Particularly when the damage output for each incorrect guess is so high, as it is in some versions of SF4. Three wrong guesses (which is only a 1/8 chance) and you've basically lost the round with some characters.



I was a strong supporter of SFxT 1.0. It was a pretty thoughtful game where you had to manage your switches and it had good footsies / neutral play without being super dependent on vortex. However, all the SF4-morons were like "this game has too many timeouts! We don't want to have to think about how to use two characters at once!" and eventually Capcom relented and basically ruined the game by taking out everything that was good about it. It's now a very vortex-heavy game and when you switch doesn't matter because you effectively never regain any health no matter how long you sit out. One of the worst patches I've ever seen.

SFxT pre-patch had some ****** infinites especially the Kazuya infinite. Some other things were dumb like Ken air tatsu. i'm ok with the patch. It cant be vortex heavy since the mechanics don't allow for FREE wake-up pressure though I don't doubt that wake-up pressure is now much more solidified in the game now that it has been out for awhile.

Not gonna lie i also love the game cuz I feel they got Sagat right. He is powerful but not braindead. He takes understanding, patience and intelligence in that game. Though I'm mad the patch took out his Tiger Rev. St.hk to fake hk built hella meter for free lol. Best battery in the game pre-patch.


On Topic: Sheik da best *******

 

[Antonykun]

Oh yeah I totally forgot to mention, Villager's jabs are super good at taking on ground approaches. It beats grabs shields and certain Dash attacks (I think those are most of Luigi's ground approaches?). And it even clanks with Spin Dash.

 

[Runic_SSB]

Think it does, honestly.

I just tested it, and they seem to be exactly the same.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I know what you're saying but ambiguous crossup or unblockables was limited to a select few. Even a character like vega could throw you into a vortex type of situation if he got ex izuna drop. The problem I saw it was some characters Akuma didn't really care while at tge same time throwing you into their own vortex. Although I'll concede that Cammy was a bit ridiculous. Then there was also OS that made the vortex even harder to escape. ....no one cried about dee jays vortex.

But in sm4sh I think ledge trapling is probably the closest you're going to get to a vortex.

I think the more we work on this ledge trapping thing. We'll figure out a vortex just as bad.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ledge trap in Brawl was 100 times more deadly then this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ledge trap in Brawl was 100 times more deadly then this game.

I'm glad that ledge traps are really tame in this game, and that ledge stalling also isn't broken.

This imo is actually one major reason why heavy characters are in a better spot than in previous games. Universally weak options to punish ledge stand outside of grab means being a heavy character actually is a noticeable advantage for dealing with ledge traps, giving you more opportunities to guess your way back on stage safely.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean you wanna talk about set-play. lol.

Ledge trap with Marth and MK in Brawl was literally, stand there. Just stand there. They do ANYTHING, run up and do a safe aerial. If it hit good stuff you reset the trap. If it didn't, then you are safe.

IC's was infinitely more destructive because of desync option coverage. like..lol the situation was 10-0 vs alot of chars. their options were get grabbed or stay on the ledge and try to stall a bit then get grabbed later.

Diddy, set a nana behind you and in front of you. Wait. Profit.

lol just thinking of this stupidity has me giddy.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Fatties also benefit from the lack of chain grabs, but sadly the inherent problem with Super Smash Bros. formula prevents them from shining to begin with. Granted characters of those kin have always been difficult to use due to the issue of being a slow huge target, but Super Smash Bros. arguably emphasizes more due to the freedom of movement and limitations of movesets.

 

[HeroMystic]

Fatties also benefit from the lack of chain grabs, but sadly the inherent problem with Super Smash Bros. formula prevents them from shining to begin with. Granted characters of those kin have always been difficult to use due to the issue of being a slow huge target, but Super Smash Bros. arguably emphasizes more due to the freedom of movement and limitations of movesets.

They're better than what they have been in the past, but Nintendo didn't go all the way with making heavies competitively threatening. Essentially if they made every heavy have some form of super armor similarly to what they did with Little Mac then they'd be way better.

 

[FlareHabanero]

They're better than what they have been in the past, but Nintendo didn't go all the way with making heavies competitively threatening. Essentially if they made every heavy have some form of super armor similarly to what they did with Little Mac then they'd be way better.

Well, I guess they were intended more so for a free for all setting or team setting, since in those settings multiple targets mean more KOs to rack up. But like I said, this isn't isn't the only franchise that has that particular issue. Fatties are normally either difficult to master but absolutely brutal, or flat out bad. There's rarely if ever a gray area.

 

[Shaya]

I mean you wanna talk about set-play. lol.

Ledge trap with Marth and MK in Brawl was literally, stand there. Just stand there. They do ANYTHING, run up and do a safe aerial. If it hit good stuff you reset the trap. If it didn't, then you are safe.

IC's was infinitely more destructive because of desync option coverage. like..lol the situation was 10-0 vs alot of chars. their options were get grabbed or stay on the ledge and try to stall a bit then get grabbed later.

Diddy, set a nana behind you and in front of you. Wait. Profit.

lol just thinking of this stupidity has me giddy.

It took a lot of skill to edgeguard with Marth, he was the best in the game with it too, especially if they were sub 100% (post-100% was lolworthy, 90-10s at best for the victim). It was a matter of reaction speed above all else :
Butyeah, I kept people on the ledge for days, it was his most top-tier giving ability IMO and determined most of his kills/damage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

As long as your reactions weren't booty it was pretty easy to react to any ledge option. idk how skillful I would call it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

They're better than what they have been in the past, but Nintendo didn't go all the way with making heavies competitively threatening. Essentially if they made every heavy have some form of super armor similarly to what they did with Little Mac then they'd be way better.

If they gave Ganondorf a good jab/decent grab range, DK his proper hitboxes, Charizard aerials with decent AC windows, D3 with non-deflectable Gordos, etc. heavies would be a lot better. The engine is not bad for heavies at all, it's just that Sakurai felt the need to give each heavy an unnecessary weakness, nevermind the inherent weaknesses all heavies face in fighters, without which they'd all be fairly capable on default and pretty terrifying with customs.

 

[Conda]

Mew2King plays diddy because ZeRo told him to, by the way. That's how good of a character ZeRo is sure Diddy is. M2K doesn't practice much at all and he doesn't think he has 1000 matches in yet, ZeRo told him to stick to Diddy and he did. 2 Months later he's been getting far with that.

edit: My point was to show that Diddy is being used a crapton not because he's 100% the best and invalidates everyone, but it's clear he's easier to play than most characters successfully. So, early on, he's a very recommendable choice.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

If they gave Ganondorf a good jab/decent grab range, DK his proper hitboxes, Charizard aerials with decent AC windows, D3 with non-deflectable Gordos, etc. heavies would be a lot better. The engine is not bad for heavies at all, it's just that Sakurai felt the need to give each heavy an unnecessary weakness, nevermind the inherent weaknesses all heavies face in fighters, without which they'd all be fairly capable on default and pretty terrifying with customs.

gordo's should be deflectable just not from stuff like tilts and jab.

unreflectable gordo's would make approching de3 almost impossible.
id say 9 percent and over would be better.

 

[Kofu]

If they gave Ganondorf a good jab/decent grab range, DK his proper hitboxes, Charizard aerials with decent AC windows, D3 with non-deflectable Gordos, etc. heavies would be a lot better. The engine is not bad for heavies at all, it's just that Sakurai felt the need to give each heavy an unnecessary weakness, nevermind the inherent weaknesses all heavies face in fighters, without which they'd all be fairly capable on default and pretty terrifying with customs.

If Dedede had non-deflectable Gordos he'd be one of the best zoners in the game, especially with the Bouncing Gordo custom. You'd have to tone down their damage, make them cancellable like most projectiles, or do something to stop them from being absurd. Short of that, though, up the damage needed to deflect them again, at least to 3%. I'm partial to 4% because it means that Game & Watch's food still deflects them but 2% is just sad.

I question a lot of the autocancel and landing lag choices in this game, actually. Like why Game & Watch's FAir doesn't autocancel from a low jump but Diddy's does, when the latter comes out faster, does more damage, and has more range. I guess Game & Watch's is fully disjointed and he has better air speed, but it still seems odd.

 

[Chuva]

Ledge trap in Brawl was 100 times more deadly then this game.

Rosalina's ledge traps might be the only exception.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Mew2King plays diddy because ZeRo told him to, by the way. That's how good of a character ZeRo is sure Diddy is.

No he doesn't.
He was playing Sonic for like the first couple months but switched to Diddy on his own.

Not denying that Diddy is ez pz tho

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

What exactly makes Marths edge guarding game less potent this time around. The smash nerf? The new ledge mechanics?

 

[HeavyLobster]

I mean I do agree that Gordos would need to do less damage if they weren't deflectable, it's just that what Dedede needs most in a projectile is something that lets him outcamp opponents and force them to come to him, not something with great damage output but is useless in a camp-off. Dedede himself is a huge target with horrible mobility, laggy moves, and doesn't even have any decent burst movement options like Ganon, so he can't really approach the better zoners in the game(even Ganon kind of can with customs, though it is tough), so he needs to be able to at least have something to throw out so he's not a sitting duck penguin.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What exactly makes Marths edge guarding game less potent this time around. The smash nerf? The new ledge mechanics?

The new mechanics of Fair, mostly. Also, the Nair nerf.


Alsoalso, the new ledge mechanics where opponents just won't slip off.

 

[Mr Blokes]

This list seems pretty accurate, I'm of the same opinion that all of these characters are at least strong, aside from maybe Pikachu.

Villager is Evil.

 

[Saturn_]

I'm messing around with the swordsmen characters, could someone talk about Shulk vs. Marth when it comes to spacing? They obviously both want to fight at a defined distance but I don't know much about Marth.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm messing around with the swordsmen characters, could someone talk about Shulk vs. Marth when it comes to spacing? They obviously both want to fight at a defined distance but I don't know much about Marth.

AFAIK Shulk actually has Roy-esque sweetspots at close range on the Monado itself as opposed to the giant laser blade it extends, but that laser blade is so freaking huge it's better to space with that anyway than trying to get close for the damage.

Marth has tippers but I've always struggled with landing those.

 

[Conda]

No he doesn't.
He was playing Sonic for like the first couple months but switched to Diddy on his own.

Not denying that Diddy is ez pz tho

He just shared the story on his stream.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Let's hypothesize. If they do nerf diddys dthrow to up air do you think the character by design is still a top to high tier character. I think overall he a nice moveset to handle most situations.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Well Marth wants to tipper stuff while Shulk doesn't care what part of his sword he hits with (and gets second, faster hits close to his hilt on several moves, making them multi-hit, but this isn't true for all of his moves). Shulk's best spacing tool is nair which keeps him in the air a lot while Marth has considerably more impressive grounded tools. The Monado (Shulk's sword) is longer than the Falchion (Marth's sword) in general, but most of Marth's attacks are faster. IMO Shulk plays like a quirky Ike a lot moreso than he plays like Marth; Marth plays a faster, weaker sort of zoning with the constant fishing for the tipper hits which do "way too much" damage and kill stupid early if he can ever get the hit. I dunno what in particular you're wanting to know here.

 

[Conda]

I'm messing around with the swordsmen characters, could someone talk about Shulk vs. Marth when it comes to spacing? They obviously both want to fight at a defined distance but I don't know much about Marth.

Marth has attacks that come out quicker with some endlag, where Shulk is the opposite - start lag but not as much endlag generally speaking.

Shulk have better SH air-to-ground options in SH Nair -> jab/grab. Marth has superior ground-based options though. Marth can mix up his attack patterns much better than Shulk - one of Shulk's main weaknesses. Shulk can't really do a lot to be unpredictable attack wise, he has to rely upon his monados granting him mobility and damage/kill advantages He can't gain much in the way of mixups or unpredictability from his normals or specials alone.

Marth is more of a sandbox character in this way, as he can do a lot from each angle but it's all about execution. Meanwhile Shulk plays much more conventionally, with monados making his conventional and basic options more effective on demand.

Marth also has a safer recovery (not longer distance, just safer) and much better general mobility without the need for monado arts. He also has increased recovery via customs (dashing assault), and the great ability to pop shields. His counter isn't much weaker than Shulks and sees slightly more usability in the air I find, which is where I find counters to be of most use.

 

[Saturn_]

Marth has attacks that come out quicker with some endlag, where Shulk is the opposite - start lag but not as much endlag generally speaking.

Shulk have better SH air-to-ground options in SH Nair -> jab/grab. Marth has superior ground-based options though. Marth can mix up his attack patterns much better than Shulk - one of Shulk's main weaknesses. Shulk can't really do a lot to be unpredictable attack wise, he has to rely upon his monados granting him mobility and damage/kill advantages He can't gain much in the way of mixups or unpredictability from his normals or specials alone.

Marth is more of a sandbox character in this way, as he can do a lot from each angle but it's all about execution. Meanwhile Shulk plays much more conventionally, with monados making his conventional and basic options more effective on demand.

Marth also has a safer recovery (not longer distance, just safer) and much better general mobility without the need for monado arts. He also has increased recovery via customs (dashing assault), and the great ability to pop shields. His counter isn't much weaker than Shulks and sees slightly more usability in the air I find, which is where I find counters to be of most use.

When I first picked up Smash4, I was literally just doing inputs from Melee that I would do for Falco, just short hop-dair-fast fall, on various characters. Shulk's dash-short hop-nair-ff feels straight out of Melee.

Does Marth's B ever break shields? The way they changed it from a overhead swing to a stab really annoys me.

 

[Jords2Good]

Anyone think sonic will be a top player later in the year as the community learns more about this game?

 

[HeroMystic]

Marth's Shield Breaker is extremely strong and should not be underestimated.

Anyone think sonic will be a top player later in the year as the community learns more about this game?

Sonic is already top tier. All he can do at this point is get figured out and become weaker in viability.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Anyone think sonic will be a top player later in the year as the community learns more about this game?

Yes by design I feel he'll always remain atleast high tier and stay top 15 or even top 10. His speed alone is difficult for a ton of characters to deal with. He has great kill options which is what he lacked in brawl. He can get in on zoners well to he's like moving projectile. I do think we will see another balance patch Tho maybe when mew2 comes out and I do hope Diddy sheik sonic and luigi are all toned down a bit. Think it would be great for the game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well Marth wants to tipper stuff while Shulk doesn't care what part of his sword he hits with (and gets second, faster hits close to his hilt on several moves, making them multi-hit, but this isn't true for all of his moves). Shulk's best spacing tool is nair which keeps him in the air a lot while Marth has considerably more impressive grounded tools. The Monado (Shulk's sword) is longer than the Falchion (Marth's sword) in general, but most of Marth's attacks are faster. IMO Shulk plays like a quirky Ike a lot moreso than he plays like Marth; Marth plays a faster, weaker sort of zoning with the constant fishing for the tipper hits which do "way too much" damage and kill stupid early if he can ever get the hit. I dunno what in particular you're wanting to know here.

I could be wrong but I think as Shulk is better to space with retreating fairs the nair. Nai's hit box starts behind him and the range isn't as good as fair. Dtilt is pretty good poke for shulk as well.

The ledgr in brawl was a lot safer. So safe that it destroyed the game. At first I wasn't a fan of both characters grabbing the ledge. But when I see how effective trumping can be it's pretty interesting.

 

[Balgorxz]

Anyone think sonic will be a top player later in the year as the community learns more about this game?

doubt it, I think sonic can only become weaker with time since he is already pretty strong.
also campy sonic has no future.

 

[incrediblej]

doubt it, I think sonic can only become weaker with time since he is already pretty strong.
also campy sonic has no future.

The combo game on sonic is just his dash jump when it connects and do some ariarials and I find him a bit predictable unless the player does some mind games and his combo game won't go up cause everyone uses him basically the same way but he probably will stay top 15 at the least later in the meta

I still miss his your to slow taunt but I guess it makes sense the game movement isn't to slow anymore like in brawl where every thing was floaty
btw I still like brawl

Edit(didn't want to double post): are any of the big tournaments gonna alow custom moves like at evo I haven't been caught up on tournament rules yet