Character Competitive Impressions

[ParanoidDrone]

1. Ambiguity is sometimes good, in situations where they're not directly important in any way but people want to give that "opinion" anyway.

2. People come from previous games and while a few months into the meta now should mean most people are used to the differences, it's still something that can be heavily drawn upon. Sheik was bottom of mid tier in Brawl and lost to everyone good (although not too badly), now she's top tier and dominates; why?

4. i'll tell you what's relevant~ Oh but seriously, it's pretty obvious because chances are you've come across those characters in tournament (remember, this is about competitive play). If your character lose to something 'random' or has an obscene advantage somewhere, that's relevant.

6. "Ideally" isn't what's happening right now. I don't like pretending certain things aren't the main focus. Within the next week or so you'll be seeing most tournaments with customs attempting to adopt AA's system, and if they don't, they'll be the odd ones out due to the summer season organisers already looking at finalising bookings/rulesets and starting the advertising trail.

I didn't mean to imply that AA's sets shouldn't be discussed, they absolutely should for the reasons you mention. But I think it would be a mistake to not at least look at any custom moves not represented, even if the result is an instant "worthless, move on."

 

[Gunla]

The thing being is that some customs (like Single Shot Pump and Power Shot for Greninja) are deliberately awful.

Granted, there's some moves for characters that are nice; however, they may not exactly fit well with a character whatsoever (such as the alternate Hydro Pumps being worse options for any playstyle). With some characters, it will likely vary in what customs that aren't used are worth discussion or not.

 

[Metalex]

Which characters would you guys say falls into the unexplored/underdeveloped category? And which of them has the most room to improve?

 

[FlareHabanero]

For the record, customs aren't going to drastically shift the metagame. Four attacks is only a fraction of the big picture.

 

[FimPhym]

The desire for an "official" tier list on smashboards strikes me as a really cute hang over from early melee days with the heated flames of tier debates - do they exits at all? Of course they do, here's the OFFICIAL list, no arguing.

In most other communities I'm aware of tier lists all look pretty similar but no one would say anyone has the authority to say what the "real" list is, and why would they even need it? All a person who wants to win needs to know is what the big threats are, and low tier heroes and other eccentrics will be repping their character whether they are considered to be "bad" or "okay" or somewhere Inbetween. Either because they don't care or they disagree.

Meanwhile, when two reputable players have wildly different top 5s or top 10s that's interesting to think about and talk about. An "official" list seems to be about the worst of all possible worlds.

Edit: or maybe a desire for the one true list is just a strong desire among new players to the game or competitive gaming? I spent endless time defending the existence of tiers on gamefaqs and possibly smashboards back in yesterdecade. It seems sort of uniquely strong in smash culture though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The thing being is that some customs (like Single Shot Pump and Power Shot for Greninja) are deliberately awful.

Granted, there's some moves for characters that are nice; however, they may not exactly fit well with a character whatsoever (such as the alternate Hydro Pumps being worse options for any playstyle). With some characters, it will likely vary in what customs that aren't used are worth discussion or not.

True. I'm thinking mostly of characters like Ganondorf where IIRC there was a large debate over Warlock Blade vs. Warlock Thrust for the neutral special of choice. Blade won and that's reflected in all of his sets having it instead of Thrust, but that doesn't mean Thrust deserves to be skipped over entirely in a "Ganondorf's custom moves" discussion.

 

[Shaya]

Nothing would be stopping people from stretching the boundaries, but I'll be looking for what's important (yes, what I define as important, [dis]respect the bias). This type of stuff is meant to be resources for tournament going players, unused/bad customs aren't relevant to them for the most part.

@ Gunla I'll probably split it up "tier wise".

Which characters would you guys say falls into the unexplored/underdeveloped category? And which of them has the most room to improve?

Every character has room to improve. I can talk about how with Marth aerial dancing blade, landing lag cancels and perfect pivoting are things we're aware of but are definitely not implemented at "top level" (or using it's maximum potential). With ZSS I could see disgusting custom combos with RAR nairs and aggressive (while still safe) usage of down-b.
It's really there for character mains to go nuts on what they feel their character could achieve in the future.

Unexplored/underdeveloped? I'd say characters you think are good but you've never actually seen at a tournament Some I'd personally consider:

basically the characters which when you place in a tier list some one goes BUT THEY'RE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THAT OMG DONT YOU SEE THE POTENTIAL / THEY HAVE NO RESULTS AT ALL THEY MUST SUCK YOU SUCK TIERS ARE FOR KAPPAS and I think this because of FOR GLORY

 

[Antonykun]

Nothing would be stopping people from stretching the boundaries, but I'll be looking for what's important (yes, what I define as important, [dis]respect the bias). This type of stuff is meant to be resources for tournament going players, unused/bad customs aren't relevant to them for the most part.

@ Gunla I'll probably split it up "tier wise".



Every character has room to improve. I can talk about how with Marth aerial dancing blade, landing lag cancels and perfect pivoting are things we're aware of but are definitely not implemented at "top level" (or using it's maximum potential). With ZSS I could see disgusting custom combos with RAR nairs and aggressive (while still safe) usage of down-b.
It's really there for character mains to go nuts on what they feel their character could achieve in the future.

Unexplored/underdeveloped? I'd say characters you think are good but you've never actually seen at a tournament Some I'd personally consider:

basically the characters which when you place in a tier list some one goes BUT THEY'RE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THAT OMG DONT YOU SEE THE POTENTIAL / THEY HAVE NO RESULTS AT ALL THEY MUST SUCK YOU SUCK TIERS ARE FOR KAPPAS) and I think this because of FOR GLORY

You know I'd put in like 30+ characters into that list just because Diddy/Sheik/ZSS are in most top players hearts for obvious reasons.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

For the record, customs aren't going to drastically shift the metagame. Four attacks is only a fraction of the big picture.

i thought it already was the consesus that other than a few select characters. customs moves just tighten the spacing between teir gaps.

 

[thehard]

Who was it that said tier gaps matter more than tier placements? I like that.

 

[Shaya]

Seems like something some of the better theorists tend to imply/state anyway.
I've always put "tier separations" above individual placement. 1-51 is ugly either way.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

True. I'm thinking mostly of characters like Ganondorf where IIRC there was a large debate over Warlock Blade vs. Warlock Thrust for the neutral special of choice. Blade won and that's reflected in all of his sets having it instead of Thrust, but that doesn't mean Thrust deserves to be skipped over entirely in a "Ganondorf's custom moves" discussion.

Thing is if a set becomes popular enough, other sets become deprioritized and can be replaced for new options.

 

[Gunla]

Seems like something some of the better theorists tend to imply/state anyway.
I've always put "tier separations" above individual placement. 1-51 is ugly either way.

It seems to be a good estimate for the time being. Most have stated that placement really matters only at, say, the top 10 or so, and even then, we have concrete top 1 and 2s at this time.

A lot of the time, those lower tier guesses are in the dark, resulting in it being a bit better to have a vague pool of estimation. Because again, trying to place 49/50 other characters in a certain order is a big timewaster when we don't even have too much coverage of them in the first place to make an educated guess.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Tiers exist, but people should know that placement on a list doesn't affect anything. There could be one tier list where Meta Knight is upper mid, another where he's bottom, etc. But the fact of the matter is that no matter where you put him, Meta Knight is still Meta Knight. And I feel as though that's the most common misconception when it comes to tiers. While this may seem like a stab at the existence of tiers, it really isn't. I'm not going to deny that some characters are better than others. Undoubtedly, this is a fact. But just because you get a vibe that people think character X isn't viable, that doesn't mean you should drop them. Look at aMSa! Yoshi is lower mid but does he care? Nope. He'll wreck with Yoshi because he wants to. And he 's incredible. Not enough for you? Look at Melee's initial tier lists. Jigglypuff was lackluster at first. But people who stuck with the little puff ended up laughing their way to the bank as Jigs becomes top tier.
Don't get swayed, fellow Smashers, by anyone who disrespects your main. Stick with that unexplored character and show them your moves. You could hop on the Diddy bandwagon just like everyone else, but you won't be remembered for that. He is an incredible character. He really is. And if you play to win and main Diddy, it's not like you're the bad guy. But just know that if you're still looking for a main, or if you main someone unconventional... just know that you could be maining a Melee-Jigglypuff. Consider that before you give into the idea that your character is "lower mid."
Write your story. Don't let people write it for you.

 

[FlareHabanero]

i thought it already was the consesus that other than a few select characters. customs moves just tighten the spacing between teir gaps.

No, my point being that people need to realize that four moves won't drastically change how everything works. There are at least 20 other moves you also have to handle with and characteristics like weight and speed aren't modified (at least normally). You will still need to know how to use a character's characteristics, otherwise, customs or not, you're going to be destroyed.

 

[Pyr]

Tiers exist, but people should know that placement on a list doesn't affect anything. There could be one tier list where Meta Knight is upper mid, another where he's bottom, etc. But the fact of the matter is that no matter where you put him, Meta Knight is still Meta Knight. And I feel as though that's the most common misconception when it comes to tiers. While this may seem like a stab at the existence of tiers, it really isn't. I'm not going to deny that some characters are better than others. Undoubtedly, this is a fact. But just because you get a vibe that people think character X isn't viable, that doesn't mean you should drop them. Look at aMSa! Yoshi is lower mid but does he care? Nope. He'll wreck with Yoshi because he wants to. And he 's incredible. Not enough for you? Look at Melee's initial tier lists. Jigglypuff was lackluster at first. But people who stuck with the little puff ended up laughing their way to the bank as Jigs becomes top tier.
Don't get swayed, fellow Smashers, by anyone who disrespects your main. Stick with that unexplored character and show them your moves. You could hop on the Diddy bandwagon just like everyone else, but you won't be remembered for that. He is an incredible character. He really is. And if you play to win and main Diddy, it's not like you're the bad guy. But just know that if you're still looking for a main, or if you main someone unconventional... just know that you could be maining a Melee-Jigglypuff. Consider that before you give into the idea that your character is "lower mid."
Write your story. Don't let people write it for you.

I REALLY hate this mentality. All it ever seems to be is wishful thinking. Placement does matter as an overall gauge on character viability at a higher level.

An old smasher said it best back in the day: You can own your character, but you've got to accept that they may not be good and that that fact might hold you back from doing well.

Casually, ya. Play who you want. Competitively, though, concessions need to be made on some characters. If you want to do well, you might have to drop your character to do so. Do you want to be know as the best Wii Swordsman player, or the best player period? If your character becomes Melee Jiggs, then sure. You made a right choice. But it'll take YEARS for that payoff. Why not choose a proven character you enjoy and do well with and guarantee your success instead of gambling?

Guess the question is: Do you want to win?

Sorry if this comes as harsh.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Tiers exist, but people should know that placement on a list doesn't affect anything. There could be one tier list where Meta Knight is upper mid, another where he's bottom, etc. But the fact of the matter is that no matter where you put him, Meta Knight is still Meta Knight. And I feel as though that's the most common misconception when it comes to tiers. While this may seem like a stab at the existence of tiers, it really isn't. I'm not going to deny that some characters are better than others. Undoubtedly, this is a fact. But just because you get a vibe that people think character X isn't viable, that doesn't mean you should drop them. Look at aMSa! Yoshi is lower mid but does he care? Nope. He'll wreck with Yoshi because he wants to. And he 's incredible. Not enough for you? Look at Melee's initial tier lists. Jigglypuff was lackluster at first. But people who stuck with the little puff ended up laughing their way to the bank as Jigs becomes top tier.
Don't get swayed, fellow Smashers, by anyone who disrespects your main. Stick with that unexplored character and show them your moves. You could hop on the Diddy bandwagon just like everyone else, but you won't be remembered for that. He is an incredible character. He really is. And if you play to win and main Diddy, it's not like you're the bad guy. But just know that if you're still looking for a main, or if you main someone unconventional... just know that you could be maining a Melee-Jigglypuff. Consider that before you give into the idea that your character is "lower mid."
Write your story. Don't let people write it for you.

My melee Kirby so legit, I never bring it out for fear of winning too hard.


of course people get diswayed, losing does suck, it's just about finding out at what point the character can't bring you to the level you're trying to reach, and if you're actually at that level.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I REALLY hate this mentality. All it ever seems to be is wishful thinking. Placement does matter as an overall gauge on character viability at a higher level.

An old smasher said it best back in the day: You can own your character, but you've got to accept that they may not be good and that that fact might hold you back from doing well.

Casually, ya. Play who you want. Competitively, though, concessions need to be made on some characters. If you want to do well, you might have to drop your character to do so. Do you want to be know as the best Wii Swordsman player, or the best player period? If your character becomes Melee Jiggs, then sure. You made a right choice. But it'll take YEARS for that payoff. Why not choose a proven character you enjoy and do well with and guarantee your success instead of gambling?

Guess the question is: Do you want to win?

Sorry if this comes as harsh.

No, I completely agree. The question of "do you want to win" influences your decision arguably more than anything else. If one's answer is "more than anything I have ever wanted before in my life" then you're gonna have to go with the characters with the best matchups, frame data, combo potential, speed, etc. etc. You'll get more success this way. Top tiers all the way. But the point I'm trying to make is that we are still relatively early in the meta. Undeveloped, and actually unfinished (a character and stage have yet to be included). And in this developing stage we only have a general feel at where people place. I'm pretty sure the general consensus was that Luigi was low tier not too long ago. Look at him now. Don't get me wrong, as the fog of uncertainty lifts, accurate tiers start to fall into place. That's when going ahead with high tiers is the best plan competitively (common sense, right?). But at the moment, I think exploration is important. As time goes on, there will be no need to explore that Brawl Ganondorf. But we don't even know who that is yet. We can easily agree on the top tiers at the moment, but things are still unknown at the bottom, you feel?
But yeah, what you're saying is true. If you want to win, go with top tiers. Just keep in mind that they are subject to change (more at the start and less as time goes on).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

No, my point being that people need to realize that four moves won't drastically change how everything works. There are at least 20 other moves you also have to handle with and characteristics like weight and speed aren't modified (at least normally). You will still need to know how to use a character's characteristics, otherwise, customs or not, you're going to be destroyed.

oh. well yeah i agree you should fundamently understand your character with or without customs.

*edit*
@NachoCheese And @ Pyr

we seriously have this do you want to win vs do you want to make a statment argument every 15 pages lets really try to stop. (not you guy start all the previous ones though. or any really just kinda drited into it.)

 

[Pyr]

oh. well yeah i agree you should fundamently understand your character with or without customs.

*edit*
@NachoCheese And @ Pyr

we seriously have this do you want to win vs do you want to make a statment argument every 15 pages lets really try to stop. (not you guy start all the previous ones though.)

Kinda sure that it's already done, as I'm not going to respond (nothing further to say).

On topic, I think customs will play a much more massive role. Sometimes having 1 tool is the difference between entire tiers. I mean, think of where characters would be placed in Street Fighter if Dragon Punch or Fireball didn't exist in the game, or even for a single character. Suddenly, there are massive differences to character viability and playstyle. It will be on a character to character bases, but, to say all it will do is "tighten placements" is an understatement.

 

[incrediblej]

I don't like how tier lists hold back characters because they influence people's choices but I agree that tiers actually exist and that placement is important but only if the gap is big like in all the smash games, where as the gaps are smaller in other games where everyone is viable except for like 2 or 3 characters and just depends on player skill like in I think it was Street fighter 4 correct me if im wrong about street fighter being it

 

[RIP_Lucas]

My only wish is that there be some tier specific tournaments; as in only mid tier and lower be allowed. Characters like Ganondorf are really only unviable because of terrible match ups with the high tier characters. He can overcome other characters, just not when every player is using a Sheik or Diddy or something else that basically auto wins.

 

[Luigi player]

I REALLY hate this mentality. All it ever seems to be is wishful thinking. Placement does matter as an overall gauge on character viability at a higher level.

An old smasher said it best back in the day: You can own your character, but you've got to accept that they may not be good and that that fact might hold you back from doing well.

Casually, ya. Play who you want. Competitively, though, concessions need to be made on some characters. If you want to do well, you might have to drop your character to do so. Do you want to be know as the best Wii Swordsman player, or the best player period? If your character becomes Melee Jiggs, then sure. You made a right choice. But it'll take YEARS for that payoff. Why not choose a proven character you enjoy and do well with and guarantee your success instead of gambling?

Guess the question is: Do you want to win?

Sorry if this comes as harsh.

Well, let's be happy about people thinking differently. If everyone did what you say the only characters we'd see right now would be Diddy and a little bit of Sheik. And that would be pretty boring, would't you say?

In the end the higher tiers probably have a better chance to win, but thankfully player skill is always different, and if you're good enough you can accomplish stuff even with not the best (seen) characters.

Unexplored characters also give the illusion of them being bad. So you never know what jewels might be hiding under all of them.

As an example, for now it seems many people underestimate Palutena (without customs), but I actually see her between bottom high and top mid.
She's really not as bad as some people think.


Also someone said more / all character should have down throw to something combos. Well, fact of the matter is very many characters have such combos, you might just not know about it that well, because there aren't too many people using these characters and Diddy/Luigi stealing all the spotlight for these combos, because they're the most rewarding for them.

 

[Shaya]

Palutena has too many single tools that will win 100% of the time when used properly to make me feels she's a shoe in for bottom tier.
Playing in and around 'perfect options' when the rest of the kit isn't supporting that (due to superfluous specials) drains a lot of her potential game plans (mix ups + actions in neutral), that telegraphed nature could be the death of her (so those 100% options are actually 90% ).

But yeah, that walking, dashing, aerial mobility, huge grab range and BORKen jab, dash attack, back air, up air all sell home really well. On a theoretical level, I don't see how she can have any truly bad match ups with her current kit, although with the way things panned out numbers wise, she could end up in the slight-disadvantage vs everyone (but the same 'type' so it's easy to learn/cover it) pile.
**** would be extremely different if her dash attack and dash grab weren't likely balanced around her custom set ups. Their less-than-average boost range is pretty janky/different to most other characters with similar mobility specs, but I think that's workable.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't think Luigi needs a nerf because he doesn't invalidate any other characters (or does he? Luigi mains/victims?)

I use Luigi for Ganon and heavies, because while I think that Pikachu wins against or goes even with all of them, I hate relying on chip damage and QA'ing back and forth while firing Tjolts. With Luigi I can just go in (because heavies aren't the best at abusing Luigi's poor aerial mobility) and use the unrelenting force of my combos to knock them out of the park. Big and heavy characters take hilarious damage from Luigi's strings, so he doesn't care about their high reward on hit.

Basically, Luigi outGanons Ganon.

 

[HeavyLobster]

My only wish is that there be some tier specific tournaments; as in only mid tier and lower be allowed. Characters like Ganondorf are really only unviable because of terrible match ups with the high tier characters. He can overcome other characters, just not when every player is using a Sheik or Diddy or something else that basically auto wins.

I don't think Diddy is unwinnable for Ganon. It's not easy by any stretch, but I don't think it's worse than 60:40. Sheik, Pika, and Rosa are generally the ones considered unwinnable, and I know that at least the Rosa MU is helped considerably by customs. Custom Ganon might be marginally viable with a secondary for Sheik, though even in the best case scenario it's not realistic for him to win by slogging through 40:60s and 45:55s all tourney.

 

[|RK|]

I REALLY hate this mentality. All it ever seems to be is wishful thinking. Placement does matter as an overall gauge on character viability at a higher level.

An old smasher said it best back in the day: You can own your character, but you've got to accept that they may not be good and that that fact might hold you back from doing well.

Casually, ya. Play who you want. Competitively, though, concessions need to be made on some characters. If you want to do well, you might have to drop your character to do so. Do you want to be know as the best Wii Swordsman player, or the best player period? If your character becomes Melee Jiggs, then sure. You made a right choice. But it'll take YEARS for that payoff. Why not choose a proven character you enjoy and do well with and guarantee your success instead of gambling?

Guess the question is: Do you want to win?

Sorry if this comes as harsh.

Yeah, just not in the easiest possible way. Man, I already talked about your mentality and it's still toxic. Not everyone wants to win with Diddy. Victory comes in many forms, none less valid than another. But to some of us, certain ways are just... boring. To watch and play, and that's a personal preference. Just let people play their own way. The "do you want to win" nonsense is condescending and unnecessary.

 

[Pyr]

Yeah, just not in the easiest possible way. Man, I already talked about your mentality and it's still toxic. Not everyone wants to win with Diddy. Victory comes in many forms, none less valid than another. But to some of us, certain ways are just... boring. To watch and play, and that's a personal preference. Just let people play their own way. The "do you want to win" nonsense is condescending and unnecessary.

You're making assumptions and setting a tone to my post that it did not have. I'm not saying to plank for a year to time out and win. I never even mentioned playing the best of the best. The point was simply this: Play what you want, but be ready to accept losses because of your character if they aren't one of the better ones. Don't fall into the "I can be the best at x character that isn't that good!" mentality if you want to actually do well at upper levels. If your goal is to be the best Mii Swordsman, go for it. Just remember what the goal of the game is in the end: to win the match.

And please don't call a play to win mentality toxic. It's the mentality 99% of the top players in the world, in ALL competitive games, use when you get into a tournament setting.

Victory comes in many forms, ya. Breaking a plateau, beating everyone in your state, becoming the best Olimar and being recognized for it. But 1 condition stands ahead of all others: The one on the results screen. If you can't do that, you've got to make improvements, and, sometimes, that means changing your character.

 

[RBreadsticks]

Why not try developing tier lists another way besides saying: this guy good this guy bad.

Gonna sound completly random but I think we could try taking a page from how smogon tiers work; just straight usage statistics.

Calculate who uses what how often at tournaments could also go with usage statistics and winning statistics. I might be completly wrong but it seems more rational than basing tiers off the subjective opinion of top players or the subjective opinion of the community as a whole.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Unnecessary? Perhaps.

Condescending. Surely not.

Did he say something that struck a cord within you?

This is competitive gaming. You are intelligent enough to know this. The strong chars see play. The weak ones are discarded. Victory is subjective. Winning is not.

 

[Antonykun]

No

Why not try developing tier lists another way besides saying: this guy good this guy bad.

Gonna sound completly random but I think we could try taking a page from how smogon tiers work; just straight usage statistics.

Calculate who uses what how often at tournaments could also go with usage statistics and winning statistics. I might be completly wrong but it seems more rational than basing tiers off the subjective opinion of top players or the subjective opinion of the community as a whole.

no no
In Pokemon there so few viable mons and even then people spam the easy to win with despite there being other options.
Also I rather not have to say Villager is low tier because so few pro players pick her

 

[incrediblej]

Why not try developing tier lists another way besides saying: this guy good this guy bad.

Gonna sound completly random but I think we could try taking a page from how smogon tiers work; just straight usage statistics.

Calculate who uses what how often at tournaments could also go with usage statistics and winning statistics. I might be completly wrong but it seems more rational than basing tiers off the subjective opinion of top players or the subjective opinion of the community as a whole.

In smash tier list aren't based oh this guy is good this guy is sucks mentality its based on how well that character soes against other characters on the roster thats why in a numbered tier list low tiers can beat high tiers but in the tier lists where its ranked by SS being god practically like mk in brawl S really good but not unbetable A being top 10 or 15 that isn't s or ss, B is average or usable in competive, and C being viable but not competitively good, and in smash 4 D is more unusable in competitive, and those tier list are more based on how good that character is in the metagame

 

[|RK|]

You're making assumptions and setting a tone to my post that it did not have. I'm not saying to plank for a year to time out and win. I never even mentioned playing the best of the best. The point was simply this: Play what you want, but be ready to accept losses because of your character if they aren't one of the better ones. Don't fall into the "I can be the best at x character that isn't that good!" mentality if you want to actually do well at upper levels. If your goal is to be the best Mii Swordsman, go for it. Just remember what the goal of the game is in the end: to win the match.

And please don't call a play to win mentality toxic. It's the mentality 99% of the top players in the world, in ALL competitive games, use when you get into a tournament setting.

Victory comes in many forms, ya. Breaking a plateau, beating everyone in your state, becoming the best Olimar and being recognized for it. But 1 condition stands ahead of all others: The one on the results screen. If you can't do that, you've got to make improvements, and, sometimes, that means changing your character.

Never said that playing toxic. Discouraging people from playing characters that aren't superior is toxic. Whether you see it or not, that's exactly what your post does.

That and your "it will take years" encourages that easy route even further. And I got a condescending tone from your post. If that's not the case, I apologize.

 

[Sonic94]

You could always just refer to my tier list, as it's officially the best

Anyway a check list for character specific discussions (soon?)

1. Character's "power level"; Strong, Good, Weak, Unexplored (the less options the better, could do with snazzier terms)
2. Changes between games
3. Strengths/Weaknesses
4. Match ups against "relevant" characters.
5. Areas underutilised that players should be working on/developing (future predictions).
6. Custom moves and their impacts/changes to the character's capabilities (assuming AA's custom presets)
7. Overview of neutral, advantageous and disadvantageous states

Thinking of pushing 4 characters per "wave".

and what is your tier list?

 

[Pyr]

Never said that playing toxic. Discouraging people from playing characters that aren't superior is toxic. Whether you see it or not, that's exactly what your post does.

That and your "it will take years" encourages that easy route even further. And I got a condescending tone from your post. If that's not the case, I apologize.

Look. This is a competitive game. We're playing to win here. If someone asks me to critique their play, and I can see that, fundamentally, they're fine, but their character is holding them back, I will tell them to choose a different character. I will discourage anyone who wants to WIN against a bad, or sub-par character. If they just want to get better in general, I'll leave character out of it. I started Pikachu in Melee, so I understand very well that fundamentals > character choice early on. No, the toxic thing (toxic is so overused by the way) is to recommend someone with good fundamentals, who is stuck at a level and can't get past, who also has a goal of winning, to stick with a poor choice of a character.

What do you mean easy route? Look, RK... You can take a hard path and MAYBE do well later on. Or you can take a worn, "easier" path and guarantee fundamentals are the thing that will let you down if you lose. It's not unique, but it's effective. If a character is actually good, and you want to prove us all wrong about what we view that character as, you can. I encourage it. Kick my ass with Swordsman and change my view. Until then, they lose one of the 3 required points for a character I'd play competitively:

A) Does it fit my style?
B) Can I do well with them?
C) Are they in the upper-half of the cast viability-wise?

 

[Radical Larry]

Link, the one character with a high viability rate and yet no tournament results due to people mainly not maining him. He's very viable in this game, and I see no reason as to him being on any lower portion of the tier list; he is one of the higher tiered characters on the upper half (around at least top 20), and should deserve that spot rightfully so. He's one of those characters most people don't even explore well enough. I want to see someone like ZeRo, M2K, anyone pick up Link and use him well in tournaments. If Dabuz did well with Olimar (who is/was considered bottom tier), I bet you that if someone great can main Link, we can see how great he could possibly be.

 

[NairWizard]

Link, the one character with a high viability rate and yet no tournament results due to people mainly not maining him. He's very viable in this game, and I see no reason as to him being on any lower portion of the tier list; he is one of the higher tiered characters on the upper half (around at least top 20), and should deserve that spot rightfully so. He's one of those characters most people don't even explore well enough. I want to see someone like ZeRo, M2K, anyone pick up Link and use him well in tournaments. If Dabuz did well with Olimar (who is/was considered bottom tier), I bet you that if someone great can main Link, we can see how great he could possibly be.

I know no one else is going to respond to this because they don't take you seriously, but I believe in educating people and having discussions so that we can all arrive at the truth. For the sake of that, I'm going to respond seriously. These are the reasons why I don't think that Link is good:

• He doesn't have a good close-range game. All of his specials have lag in close range except bombs that are already plucked and in hand. Jab is frame 7
• He doesn't have good OOS options (again without a bomb in hand). n-air is frame 6, which isn't bad, but has an awkward hitbox.
• His grab is mediocre, due to being a tether, which makes both of the above problems even worse.
• His recovery is abusable, as it has always been, though tethering helps a bit here
• He gets combo'd a bunch. Fastfaller + heavy weight = gets destroyed. n-air is pretty good for combo breaks and landing as far as swordsmen go though: most of their n-airs suck, but Link's is alright.
• His dash is more like a smash attack, and he's slow on top of that, so midrange isn't easy for him (there's a sweetspot between midrange and close range where Link is good, that's at the tip of his jab length--he's also good at long range).

What makes you think that Link is good? He seems thoroughly average to me, maybe even below average.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Imma end this debate in one line: just main whoever you want.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Imma end this debate in one line: just main whoever you want.

Thats not ending anything.
If your playing for the soul purpose of winning. you cannot realistically expect anybody here recomend you main "whoever you want."
Its rough tough reality son.

If you want to win on your own terms however....

 

[Balgorxz]

today all streamers that never have played with customs before realized Dr Mario he is insane with customs, his playstyle is completely different from the usual smash4 flow chart.
and he is not the only one, expect competitive impressions to change A LOT if customs are allowed.