Character Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

Concerning Warlock Punch

 

[incrediblej]

I dont main ganon but hes better in this game not massively but still needs alot of reads needed now hes actually more playable

 

[NairWizard]

Now, I like Pikachu a lot, but despite my liking I want to take a moment to talk about how silly Quick Attack is. If you don't think it's obscene, then you probably haven't played against a really good Pikachu who is technical with the move and knows all its ins and outs. When you do, you will probably change your mind. Let me explain all the things that it does:

• It lets you get away from almost any bad situation. Juggling, corner traps, frame traps, you name it, QA lets you avoid having to mess with it at all
• It lets you take stage control at almost any time you want
• It lets you recover from anywhere, at an unpredictable angle
• It lets you follow up on attacks that you couldn't have otherwise. Can't reach this platform in time to punish Little Mac's landing? No problem, use QA
• It gives you a semi-unreactable approach option that can't be punished most of the time unless it is intercepted. There are so many angles for QA that it's legitimate lunacy to try to consistently punish; it can even go right through the opponent and do 2-3% per hit
• It gives you one of the best punish tools in the game. Want to punish Bowser's Fire Breath? Pit's reflector? Zelda's up-b recovery to the stage? Done
• It gives you extra options on the ledge. You can recover through your opponent's edgeguard attempt, or over his shield (shield drop frames from not having his shield touched will mean he can't chase you)
• It gives you frame advantage for missing an edgeguard. If your opponent airdodges your gimp attempt, you can QA back to the ledge right after him without getting hit, and pop him off
• It can be canceled at the ledge for edgeguarding. Quick Attack cancel to the edge of the stage and n-air, b-air, or Thunder
• It can be canceled on stages with platforms and on inclines. On Lylat this is hilarious, because you can QA up the stage as it tilts and n-air or b-air and you'll emit a hitbox while sliding back down. You can cover the stage in safe hitboxes on BF and Lylat

If Pikachu didn't have Quick Attack, he would be Upper Mid Tier at best. Nope, not a joke or exaggeration. He might even be lower than that. He does have tools for every situation, but Quick Attack is his most important tool by far.

To put it in perspective, each of the following characters would be Top Tier without a shadow of a doubt, and many the best character in the game outright, if they had Quick Attack in place of their current up-b:





The zoners and swordsman love getting away and out of bad situations. Just imagine Villager and Robin being able to zip away from you whenever you get near them, just to set up camp/charge Thoron again. Also, Shulk and Marth with the ability to go super deep for edgegurds all the time? Whoa.
The heavies love not getting juggled. Imagine Bowser just zipping down to the ground with Quick Attack after getting launched almost every single time. The reward:risk ratio for him and other heavies would be totally off the charts.
The high-reward characters love the mobility/ability to approach and better recovery. Luigi with a basically non-edgeguardable recovery and the ability to get in on any character trying to keep him out? Ganon and Ness with the same?

And so on. That's not to say that any group only likes the parts that benefit them them the most, no; all the advantages of QA apply universally (think about Ganon coming out to edgeguard you consistently). These are just some of the most notable. You do have some exceptions... Sheik doesn't want to lose Vanish because she needs KO options, while Lucina and Zelda probably wouldn't be Top Tier even with a great move like QA.

But that's still 36 characters in a 50-character cast (not counting Pikachu himself). The move is legitimately OP.

I can think of very few single moves that would strengthen this many characters. Some are contenders, like Sheik's needles, but even those moves don't solve as many issues with only one move replacement (for instance, Luigi with Sheik's needles would still hate to recover; Ganon with Villager's Extreme Balloon Trip would still miss the QA approaches; etc.).

 

[Mr. Johan]

I've always wondered why they decided to get rid of QA's startup from 64.

Like, Pikachu has Skull Bash and hitboxes surrounding his UpB now. Did he really need QA's startup reduced from f25 to like f7 while still retaining its directional control? c'mon samurai.

 

[Yonder]

I don't think that Luigi is clearly better than Ness, Mario, and Peach. Maybe Mario.



That said, I just swept a local tournament this weekend with Luigi, and I have a few observations on the character now that I've played him for a while.

1) Luigi doesn't get destroyed by zoning. I'd actually put the Villager matchup at 50:50 or even in Luigi's favor. It's too one-dimensional to look at his airspeed and say that zoning is an autowin, because just as Luigi has trouble getting in on zoners, zoners have trouble getting out once Luigi gets in. Seriously. Unless you can grab Luigi, his aerials are too fast, his f-air is too big, and his jab and grab are too good (just look at his grab speed + range) for most characters to get him away quickly. And zoners almost universally have bad grabs. Pacman and Villager and Link/Toon Link have one heck of a time getting Luigi away once he's in.

Duck Hunt and Rosalina have good grabs, but Luigi deals with the can and Luma quite well, so those matchups are probably 50:50 too just because their zoning isn't as effective against him.

Of the zoners, Megaman is the only one with both a good grab and tools that can keep Luigi out consistently, because of big, disjointed aerials. Fireballs are canceled by pellets, too. Still, that's one out of many matchups.

Walling is still a problem for Luigi, but Brawl Meta Knight and Brawl Marth don't exist any more; you won't be getting walled out in quite the same way you would have in Brawl (overpowered by huge and possibly transcendent disjoints, that is). Instead you have guys like Mario, Diddy, and Pikachu to an extent. Luigi has a much easier time getting in on these guys due to his disproportionately huge, 9% damage f-air.

2) We are in a grab-based metagame right now, and probably will be for a long time to come, maybe even forever without patches, and Luigi is one of the best characters for such a metagame because the best way to deal with your opponent's grab is to grab him first. And if it's a question of grabbing vs. being grabbed, Luigi wins, because even if it's 50:50 Luigi getting a grab yields more reward than anyone else getting a grab.

3) Master perfect pivoting, all you budding Luigis. His perfect pivot sends him really far, and lets him get in on guys like Diddy spacing f-airs with no problem. It's actually kind of hilarious. Luigi is a fairly technical character (jumpless cyclone, learning DI patterns), all things considered, so if you already main Luigi, you should invest the time into consistently landing perfect pivot tilts and jabs. Luigi's perfect pivot to jab may just be the most beautiful thing in the game.

Wow. We certainly have different views on Villager. I think it's the only matchup I feel helpless in as Luigi. Tree snuffs fireballs, Villager can pocket fireballs, keep him out with fair [Unless Luigi clanks with nair] and Luigi struggles to answer to gyroid. Also Luigi can't recovery low thanks to bowling ball offstage. Villager is helpless if Luigi gets in though.

Idk about Duck Hunt and dealing with the can [Bair is nice], but recently I found out that tornado is a wonderful answer to knocking Luma away and getting right up next to Rosalina [Who is extremely easy to combo and kill with a D throw to Up B]. Also if Rosalina is far away and not recalled, uppercutting Luma spells death for it if you're risky.

Agreed with the ability to approach better and also his reward off a grab is the best in the game for racking damage. I think Diddy kills earlier with Hoo Hah though, unless you get Luigi's D throw to Nair sweetspot.

I need to practice perfect pivoting. I thought it was a gimmick technique like the Luigi chaingrab at first but I can see the applications of it.

I find Mega Man easier than Villager, at least Mega Man is easier to dair spike when recovering, he doesn't have a projectile like gyroid, which is so huge as to be difficult to dodge, and fireball clanks with Megaman's projectiles. Also it can't be pocketed or reflected. Tornados from Mega Man in the air though are a pain. Also with bair and forward Smash. A whiffed D smash is an instant Up B for Luigi. I think of Villager as 60:40 Villager favor and 55:45 Mega Man favor.

I also won...a college tournament not long ago out of 15 people with pure Luigi. Rosalina was manageable along with Sheik, ZSS was a bit more tricky though thanks to the whip and her mobility. Her range makes her a bigger threat than Sheik against Luigi and not being reliant on a Luma. D smash set ups for kills are strong too.

Oh, I also think Luigi is better than Peach and Mario. Not Ness.

 

[Terotrous]

Special move ban tier list, starting with the "most bannable": (Which isn't the same as "best")

1. Oil Panic
2. Gravitational Pull
3. Timber Counter
4. Kong Cyclone
5. Monkey Flip
6. anything else

Honestly, none of these are ban-worthy.

I'm pretty sure Lightweight should be there due to its quality and the bug.


Anyway, totally different topic, but after seeing Dabuz at Apex and playing some Olimar on 1.0.5 3DS (his Pikmin AI issues seem fixed), I'm kind of feeling the Olimar again. He's clearly not quite as good as he was in Brawl, but a lot of the stuff that was good about him is still good and damn can dude ever camp down a match. I admit I judged him pretty harshly after 3DS 1.0, but I think he's somewhat viable now and I'd like to see some more people pick him up.

 

[etecoon]

I think Up tilt is worse... at least the punch has hyper armor or whatever armor

Still partly vulnerable and most people approach both moves with "wait it out and punish the huge lag after", at least utilt can suck them in if they space badly and if they panic and block it can break their shield. Plus edge guards

Warlock punch is strictly there for disrespect

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I just did some looking to Kirby's customs in more detail and have some questions for @ Aunt Jemima .

I didn't realize Upper Cutter was (f5) invincible. That's actually pretty nice, more of a recovery improvement than I thought.

I don't understand the focus you gave on using FH Hammer Bash to gain enough height to survive a (failed) Meteor Stone. You can do the same thing with a single DJ, which is much faster. It's not like Kirby needs to preserve his DJs in that situation.

Meteor Stone is nice, but I don't ultimately see it as a huge improvement. It's a lot of trouble, harder to land, and tbqh normal Stone has crazy KO power anyway--enough to KO most off-stage opponents. I'd probably use Burying Stone in most matchups, since it's just so much more useable.

What I suspect the biggest difference of opinion is, is the value of Kirby's neutral-b options. They seem pretty good--frankly strictly superior, but not a huge upgrade? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on these options specifically.

I feel like the main reason nobody talks about Kirby's customs is the lack of Kirby mains, the lack of custom moves, and the lack of Kirby players using custom moves (because apparently some Kirby mains like Final Cutter). While he may not be exactly top 5 with characters like Palutena and Ganondorf existing, he's definitely right next to them.

First, let's trim down the list of Custom Moves. These are Kirby's custom moves for those who don't know, and which ones I personally recommend/don't recommend. This is NOT the explanation on why each of them is good, their uses, etc., but rather a general listing to find out which ones are even worth exploring.

Spoiler

Wave Cutter: When landing, Kirby creates a shockwave, sending rocks flying upwards. This is basically Final Cutter, but the blade no longer has a hitbox, while the shockwave now goes further and does a bit more damage. This is NOT recommended - this move gets rid of the blade hitbox which somewhat covers Kirby as he recovers in place for one of the worst projectiles in the game. I haven't tested extensively with this move, but I believe it has less height than Final Cutter, too.

Hammer Bash: Kirby swings his hammer forwards in an arch, which sends opponents skyward on contact. He cannot charge this move. This is pretty similar to Kirby's Hammer from Brawl, although this one has stronger killing power and has some odd momentum properties. This is RECOMMENDED. (check further down for reasons)

Grounding Stone: Kirby takes longer to transform into the Stone, but grounded enemies are buried on contact. This move has little endlag while having quite a bit of transformation time, which makes it safer in some ways, and less safe in others. When hitting aerial opponents, this move does a lot less knockback than default Stone. When hitting grounded opponents, however, it buries them and allows Kirby to punish in whatever way he'd like. This Stone is PERSONAL PREFERENCE/MU DEPENDENT. (check further down for reasons)

ice Breath: Kirby breathes cold air to freeze nearby opponents, but loses the Copy Abilities. This move has the same start-up as default Inhale with less endlag, making in a little bit safer to use against opponents. Obviously, this isn't a command grab like Inhale is, so it can be shielded. This Inhale is PERSONAL PREFERENCE/MU DEPENDENT. (check further down for reasons)

Upper Cutter: Stronger than his normal blade, doesn't hit anything on the way down. This move goes significantly further than Final Cutter does, does more damage, and has more knockback, for the trade-off of losing the downwards hit that gives Kirby atrocious endlag. It also snaps to ledges, unlike the other two Final Cutter customs. This Final Cutter is RECOMMENDED. (check further down for reasons)

Giant Hammer: Kirby swings a massive hammer, which is slower but stronger than his normal one. This move has incredible knockback, has super armor while charging, and is unblockable, so shields and counters won't work against it. Kirby moves much slower than the original Hammer Flip, though, and takes longer to pull the actual hammer out. This Hammer Flip is PERSONAL PREFERENCE/MU DEPENDENT. (check further down for reasons)

Meteor Stone: Kirby takes longer to transform back, but he will meteor smash any opponents he comes in contact with while falling. This is one of the strongest, if not the strongest meteor smash in the game. The start-up time is similar to Stone, while the transformation time is increased. The actual time it takes to be able to exit Meteor Stone is drastically increased, making it so Kirby can easily lose a stock when using this move. This Stone is PERSONAL PREFERENCE/MU DEPENDENT. (check further down for reasons)

Jumping Inhale: Kirby jumps and moves a significant distance forward as he inhales. The whirlwind vacuum is removed. The start-up and endlag are the same as default Inhale, although the fact that Kirby moves makes it much less punishable. It is also changed into a true command grab, as the whirlwind doesn't exist on this custom. This Inhale is RECOMMENDED.

---

Now that the list is trimmed, it's time to go over his actual custom moves. First, I'd like to talk about Upper Cutter, which is probably Kirby's best move and one of the best specials in the game.

Upper Cutter:

As said before, this move is basically a straight-up buff compared to Final Cutter or Wave Cutter. There's literally no reason to use the others when this exists. It's faster, a lot less punishable, loads stronger, and generally a better move. Now, let's go over each of the actual attributes of this move.

Recovery:

Using the recovery ranking, here's how Upper Cutter stands as a recovery.

Vertical, Horizontal, and Diagonal Distances:
While I don't have exact measurements, this move has incredible vertical distance, rivaling some of the best recovery moves. I believe it goes around the same height as Shuttle Loop, if not a bit higher or lower. With horizontal distance, this move doesn't have as much, but due to Kirby's actual jumps, this doesn't matter. However, for some reason, Kirby keeps all his air speed when going into a free fall, unlike some characters such as Palutena, Zelda, and Villager, who can barely move when in a free fall. This lets him get a bit more horizontal distance than the actual recovery travels. For diagonal distance, it's basically combining the amazing vertical distance and his oddly fast free-fall speed, so it goes fairly far.

Air Speed:
As said before, unlike most free falls, Kirby keeps almost all his air speed when moving. Unlike other characters, he doesn't move slower than snail pace when stuck in a free fall, which lets him avoid punishes better if he misses the move or something of that sort.

Hitboxes (strength, size, power, et cetera):
This is really where this move shines - Kirby's Upper Cutter hitbox is huge cause it's disjointed, has incredibly strength, and sends at a perfect angle for stage spiking. This covers Kirby really well, so he doesn't have to worry about being completely wrecked once he's off-stage, and can almost always get back.

Armor/Super Armor/Invulnerability/Intangibility:
While I actually didn't know it, apparently from your tests, Kirby is invincible during Upper Cutter. This makes Upper Cutter even more safe than it already was, as he's... literally invincible. Combining the hitbox and invincibility, wow. That's great.

Vulnerability to gimps/spikes (stagespikes or otherwise):
As has been talked about before, Kirby is, quite literally, invincible to being edgeguarded. He has a hugely disjointed move that easily stage spikes opponents, making them lose their stock. He's invincible himself, making it so that he can't be hurt whatsoever. The move comes out incredibly fast and goes upwards at sanic-speed, making it almost impossible to catch Kirby during the ledge vulnerability. The only times I've ever been edgeguarded as Kirby is when I do something stupid, such as try to jump back to the ledge instead of relying to the god-like Upper Cutter.

Flexibility/Predictability/Options (mixups/mindgames and the like):
Multiple jumps, floatiness, one of the fastest recovery moves in the game, covers insane distances. Kirby could just fly under the ledge and never die by using his floatiness. While the move doesn't require flexibility or anything due to truly being invincible, it still has them.

Reliability/ (Not to be confused with ease-of-use):
Going from the other things I've said, I think it's pretty clear that it's reliable.

Defensive Aerials, Actions Out of Up B, Ledge Sweetspots, and more!:
All that really needs to be said here is that this move starts snapping to ledges on frame 4, so I could use it right below the ledge and still snap.


Uses:

We've covered the fact that this is an amazing recovery, now let's cover it's uses throughout a match.

Out of Shield:
Upper Cutter is great as an OoS attack. It does 10%, has great knockback, covers huge distances to punish both aerial and grounded attacks, and comes out on f5/f6 with invincibility. The only risk of using it is the fact that is puts Kirby high into the air, with his lackluster air speed and floatiness, making it harder to get back down. However, the grounded version of this move travels less distance than the aerial version, meaning it's not as punishable as it seems.

Combos:
One of the best things about this already amazing move is that it expands Kirby's combo game greatly. I'll be getting the actual percentages later, but from some quick tests I did a while ago, Kirby can use Upper Cutter after the following moves as a true combo:

U-Tilt, F-Tilt, D-Tilt (with and without trip), Dash Attack, U-Air, U-Air landing, F-Air, F-Air landing, D-Air, D-Air landing, N-Air landing, B-Throw, F-Throw, certain Copy Abilities

That's half of Kirby's moveset that Upper Cutter can be used to finish combos. While some moves, such as D-Tilt, have better combos and follow-ups, it's still nice to have this as an option.

As an example. F-Throw to F-Air is a true combo on bigger characters, along with heavy floaties such as R.O.B. and Samus. Kirby can use this to D-Air > D-Tilt > F-Throw > F-Air > Dash Attack > Upper Cutter, which, if done fast enough, is a true combo.

My main use for this move with combos is using it as a juggle finisher, as after a couple U-Airs, I can use Upper Cutter to finish it off with an extra 10%.

Killing Set-Ups:
As has been pointed out a couple times before, Upper Cutter has enough knockback growth to the point where it kills. Kirby actually has more kill set-ups using this, which greatly enhances his potential to kill. While there may be more, here are the ones that I've found (these are true combos, obviously):

U-Tilt > Upper Cutter - click here!
U-Tilt (sourspot) > Upper Cutter
U-Tilt (sourspot) > U-Air > Upper Cutter - click here!
U-Air > Upper Cutter
U-Air (landing) > Upper Cutter - click here!
U-Air (landing) > U-Air > Upper Cutter - click here!

Having a tilt that sets up for kills, especially when that tilt comes out incredibly fast with little endlag, is great. Having an aerial that sets up for kills and a move (Upper Cutter) that kills by default in the air makes it much more dangerous to be above Kirby at higher percents. After a few tests, here's the kill percents on a couple random characters without Rage or DI on Final Destination:


Rosalina:
U-Tilt > Upper Cutter - 95%
U-Tilt (sourspot) > Upper Cutter - 100%
U-Tilt (sourspot) > U-Air > Upper Cutter - 75%
U-Air > Upper Cutter - 80% (tested from FH height)
U-Air (landing) > Upper Cutter - 90%
U-Air (landing) > U-Air > Upper Cutter - 65%


Robin:
U-Tilt > Upper Cutter - 105%
U-Tilt (sourspot) > Upper Cutter - 115%
U-Tilt (sourspot) > U-Air > Upper Cutter - 85%
U-Air > Upper Cutter - 95% (tested from FH height)
U-Air (landing) > Upper Cutter - 105%
U-Air (landing) > U-Air > Upper Cutter - 80%


DK
U-Tilt > Upper Cutter - 120%
U-Tilt (sourspot) > Upper Cutter - 135%
U-Tilt (sourspot) > U-Air > Upper Cutter - 100%
U-Air > Upper Cutter - 110% (tested from FH height)
U-Air (landing) > Upper Cutter - 125%
U-Air (landing) > U-Air > Upper Cutter - 100%

This expands on the fact that both Kirby's D-Air and D-Tilt set up for kills, which gives Kirby quite a bit of options for killing opponents. Two of his tilts and two of his aerials now sets up kills, with his B-Air, D-Air (off-stage), all his smashes, and all four of his special moves being "kill moves" (Kirbycide, Upper Cutter, (Meteor) Stone, Hammer variations)



Jumping Inhale:

This move's main difference compared to Inhale is that Kirby lunges forward while inhaling. Along with the general superiority of this move, as it's less punishable and easier to land, it comes with a few differences in the use of it.

Uses:

This move comes with a few quirks that default Inhale doesn't come with, most of (if not all) which are added due to the forward momentum while using it.

Copy:
One of the biggest buffs about this Inhale is that the biggest flaw of Copy is fixed. With default Inhale, if you use Copy on certain characters, they can use moves like their D-Air or D-Special to hit Kirby before he can move. With Jumping Inhale, if you hold down, Kirby will Copy on the first frame possible. If an opponent tries to use a move that'll hit Kirby while copying, Kirby will drift with his momentum from the move to avoid the attack, and can then punish it. This helps, as Kirby won't be losing abilities the second he gets them, and won't take a hit trying to use the Copy Abilities.

Default Inhale
Jumping Inhale

Kirbycide:
This is a bit of a gimmick, obviously, but Kirbycide is much more viable with Jumping Inhale. While it doesn't work on every character, characters who have poor recovery, whether it be horizontally, vertically, or both, will suffer from this. In this game, when an opponent breaks out of Kirby's mouth, they come out above him instead of below. If they jump directly back to the stage, Kirby will get footstool'd, giving the opponent a huge boost in recovery. However, if Kirby jumps towards or away from the opponent (but NEVER straight upwards), he won't get footstool'd, leaving opponents to rely on their recovery. This will force opponents to recover in a specific way, so against characters like Duck Hunt or Olimar, Kirby can quickly latch to the ledge with Upper Cutter, then come back with D-Air. Kirbycide is actually viable against some bigger characters, fast fallers, and a couple random characters, though, because Kirby will always get the footstool on them. Some characters, such as Donkey Kong and Bowser have huge heads, so Kirby can easily footstool them before they can do anything. Other characters, like Captain Falcon and Sheik, give Kirby a free footstool, as their fall speed makes them come out below Kirby. I have no idea why some characters, such as Diddy Kong, can be footstool'd out of it.



Ice Breath:

Ice Breath has to be one of the weirdest disjoints in this game. It's a active, multi-hitting, freezing disjoint. This move removes Kirby's main feature, the Copy Abilities, so it's better fit against characters who don't have good or useful abilities. However, even if the Copy Ability is useful, this move has some amazing features.

Uses:

Along with the weird disjoint that comes with this move, this move has another odd attribute. Kirby's hurtbox, while still existing, is overlapped with a hitbox. This makes this move much more useful than it originally would be.

Ledge Options:
This, in my opinion, is what makes this move have so much use. If properly spaced, this move will cover every single possible ledge option, freeze the opponent, and knock them back off the stage. Usually, opponents would be able to roll into Kirby and run past. However, as Kirby is now a hitbox, he drags the opponents into him on their first ledge roll vulnerability frame, then shoves them back out. This move does 6~10% if countering get-up, attack, jump, and aerial, and does 16~22% if the opponent gets up with a roll. The main part about this is that the opponent has to take a gamble. This move requires almost perfect spacing, so it's easy to mess up. This means that the opponent can roll into Kirby and get a free smash attack, or roll into Kirby and take a ton of damage. The only way to get around this is to ledge drop and jump around Kirby, which almost every character will have to use their recovery to do. Kirby can stop the move when they start going over him, and punish the endlag. Oh, and for some odd reason, the move ends up sticking out underneath the ledge, so opponents who try to ride up the ledge while recovering can no longer do so.
Ledge Options - Get-Up, Attack, Jump
Ledge Options - Roll

Freezing Opponents:
Not really sure what to call this, but it just adds to the weirdness of this move. While almost every move in the game is stopped by the disjoint in front of Kirby, the hitbox that covers Kirby's body can protect him from some moves. While I haven't tested this out as much, moves such as Greninja's Shadow Sneak, Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape, and Little Mac's K.O. Punch (depends on spacing) are stopped if they try to hit Kirby. This may not have as much practicality given the start-up on the move, but it shuts down some options that would possibly avoid Ice Breath on the ledge.

Stopping Shadow Sneak


Hammer Bash:

Hammer Bash, to put it simply, is Kirby's old Hammer Swing from Brawl. The main difference, however, is that this move has some odd momentum carrying stuff. I've already talked about this before, so I'll just link that for this:

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-246#post-18311890

The only thing that's changed since then is that, as you've pointed out, Kirby can just double jump for Meteor Stone. I found this out almost directly after making that post, which made me feel kind of stupid. Was going to post something about it but didn't that night and never got to it, lol. At least now I've been testing everything a billion times before saying anything here now!

As a TL:DR, Kirby gets some cool momentum stuff to boost his jump height to the same as Falco, and boost his recovery to equal the height of Villager's Balloon Trip. It's a better/safer kill option compared to Hammer Flip, and is more suited for punishing laggy moves.



Giant Hammer:

Giant Hammer, while being harder to land than others, is a lot more viable in certain match-ups. It has a few quirks of it's own - super armor while charging, strongest move in the game when fully charged (beats K.O. Punch), and the best trolling move in the game.

Uses:

This move is highly match-up dependent. It has a slow charge, but comes with super armor while charging to remedy this. The only option opponents have is to dash grab Kirby, which is risking a ton as this move kills every character past 10% from the middle of Battlefield, or use a command grab that has long range, such as Ganondorf's Flame Choke.

Super Armor Shenanigans:
Using the Super Armor, it shuts down every option other than dash grab and command grab. Shields and counters don't work against this move, as it's unblockable, which also removes any hope of using a standing grab. Dash grabs have longer start-up than standing grabs for most, which allows this move (fully charged) to beat out a bit of grabs. Giant Hammer beats out f12 grabs when fully charged, which makes dash grabbing much more risky on certain characters. With all of this, it actually makes it viable in certain match-ups. Against characters with slow grounded speed, slow dash grabs, or short grab range, Giant Hammer has a much higher chance of hitting. Trying to use aerial speed to land behind Kirby won't work, either, as the move can be released the frame the turn around animation starts, making Kirby swing the opposite direction. Along with that, against Marth and Lucina... Shield Breaker is a beautiful move to have. Bringing this into doubles is hilarious.



Grounding Stone:

Grounding Stone, along with the weaker knockback when used on aerial opponents and the burying ability when used on grounded opponents, this move has some odd changes to the start-up and endlag of the move.

Uses:

The biggest change in this move is the different start-up and endlag of the move, which gives it much more purpose than default Stone. This makes it have much more utility than default Stone, as it's not just an edgeguarding move that can kill at higher percents. Kirby already has enough of those.

Escaping Juggles:
As I've said multiple times, this move has different start-up and endlag compared to default Stone and Meteor Stone. It has much higher start-up than the other Stone variations, but has practically no endlag. This Stone falls faster than the default Stone, and allows Kirby to escape out of it relatively fast instead of having to come in contact with something. Combining the faster fall speed, faster get-out time, and lower endlag, along with the regular Stone attributes, such as the Super Armor and falling hitbox, it makes this move godly for escaping juggles. If default Stone was used, the endlag usually results in Kirby getting punished with a falling aerial or possibly a better move depending on the fall speed of the character. With this, Kirby can immediately get out, fast fall into shield/spotdodge/roll/attack, attack with any aerial, jump, or airdodge. This also allows Kirby to get down after being knocked upwards faster, so the opponent has less time to set up anything. Against characters with a good juggling game and characters that enjoy killing off the top, this move is amazing.

Burying Combos:
As should be known, burying an opponent usually can be followed up with any move. This move puts opponents into the ground much longer than other moves, and combined with the short endlag, allow Kirby to start combos or punish after landing this move. The main things Kirby can do is use Hammer Bash immediately after, D-Air when they pop out to start other combos, or Upper Cutter when they pop out for the kill. Due to the high start-up, it's much harder to land this move on-stage. However, jumping up and using this move, so far, seems like a viable way to punish read dash attacks, grabs, and some ledge options. Even then, the Super Armor allows Kirby to tank a move and punish or get out immediately and avoid a punish, making it much more safe to use on the stage.



Meteor Stone:

Meteor Stone is another match-up dependent move. While it has higher endlag and get-out time (so much that you can easily SD with it), it's one of the strongest meteors in the game, killing from the ledge at a measly 10%.

Uses

Obviously, the main use for Meteor Stone, as the name implies, is to meteor opponents. This makes the move highly match-up dependent, as it doesn't have much use outside of that.

Meteor Stone's Meteor:
This move is best suited against characters with slower, predictable recovery, such as Villager, Olimar, and Pit. Kirby usually can't edgeguard these opponents with his D-Air, as they can recover every time. However, using Meteor Stone, they can be killed incredibly early. The main downside to this move is that, if whiffed, Kirby will almost always die instead. The basic fix for this is to jump a second time before using it, as Kirby can escape it just before reaching the blast zone. It can also be used against Pac-Man's Trampoline, although this results in both Kirby and Pac-Man dying, as they touch the trampoline at the same time and both go into a helpless state.

---

Well, there's my little write-up on Kirby's custom moves. While his custom moves don't fix any of his huge flaws, such as his poor grounded and air speed, it gives Kirby much more options and makes him much more threatening. His customs allow him to cover himself in most match-ups, to remove some of the advantages characters have. Pikachu won't be able to edgeguard him without risk anymore, Greninja can't shark him to keep him in the air forever, and Captain Falcon will be suffering from Kirbycides.

I will say this - without custom moves, I agree with most of the early tier list positions he's in. He can easily be edgeguarded as Final Cutter offers barely any protection, can never use Copy or Kirbycide as Inhale is horrid in this game, can never escape juggles and sharking due to his slow speed, and can fix the unholy changes that were given to his Hammer Swing in this game.

However, with customs, I think Kirby becomes plenty viable. He's definitely not a high-tier top 10 character, but I'd say he goes from the bottom of the dump to the higher mid-tier. His custom moves do a lot for him, and while it may not SEEM like much, it adds a ton to his game... especially that godly Upper Cutter.

WOW THIS TOOK FOREVER.

Oh, last thing. This works on Rosalina and Ganondorf, true combo, only works at 55% and 75% respectively, and is a frame-perfect thing so it took me forever to get it correct just for one recording:

http://www.gfycat.com/DismalHarshHyena

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Warlock punch is strictly there for disrespect, you'll almost never hit anyone with it, but it's the ultimate "I'm really not taking you seriously" move

Aka. Pointless, and it's still not best at that. Luigi's taunt is an automatic "Quit this game, you aren't on my level".

Warlock Punch is one of those brand of moves that shouldn't exist but exists.


As for Quick attack? I'd trade Back Slash for it, but Air Slash is one of my kill moves. Shulk has heavy frame data without their reward. I could QA but I still don't have pikachu's start-ups.

 

[Blue Banana]

Anyway, totally different topic, but after seeing Dabuz at Apex and playing some Olimar on 1.0.5 3DS (his Pikmin AI issues seem fixed), I'm kind of feeling the Olimar again. He's clearly not quite as good as he was in Brawl, but a lot of the stuff that was good about him is still good and damn can dude ever camp down a match. I admit I judged him pretty harshly after 3DS 1.0, but I think he's somewhat viable now and I'd like to see some more people pick him up.

A few primary Olimar mains got into top 50 at Apex, and two Oli mains are in top 15 of the SoCal PRs. I'm not sure if these will influence your stance on Olimar's viability, but I'm just saying this because the spaceman has been getting some fair representation as a main in tournaments.

 

[incrediblej]

I like using olimar but against some characters you need to be very campy unlike in brawl where you could be agressive and pikmin who had flowrrs survived better which made it great to not worry about your pikmin later in abattle which now you need to be careful with the pik more often his recovery got buffed and nerfed which sucks cause you have to sacrifice pik to survive or go down with your pik

 

[Terotrous]

I like using olimar but against some characters you need to be very campy unlike in brawl where you could be agressive and pikmin who had flowrrs survived better which made it great to not worry about your pikmin later in abattle which now you need to be careful with the pik more often his recovery got buffed and nerfed which sucks cause you have to sacrifice pik to survive or go down with your pik

I just played a bunch of Olimar on For Glory and did pretty well. Apart from a preposterously laggy match against a Sonic I won most of the matches (and technically I won the Sonic match too since I was winning when time ran out). I note that Spindash is basically useless against Olimar, since he can just FSmash it for free, even if Sonic jumps he recovers fast enough that you can't punish. I actually think Olimar might have decent-ish matchups vs many of the high tier characters.

 

[NairWizard]

As for Quick attack? I'd trade Back Slash for it, but Air Slash is one of my kill moves. Shulk has heavy frame data without their reward. I could QA but I still don't have pikachu's start-ups.

don't need another kill move, since you can now go off the stage in Smash Mode and make it back like you're in Jump Mode. That's plenty of KO power. Quick Attack is much better on Shulk than on Pikachu imo, because Pikachu doesn't have the huge edgeguarding hitboxes.

also, Shulk's recovery in Shield and without Jump/Speed is meh, and QA fixes that

edit: also, I imagine that Monado Arts would affect QA maybe. that'd be interesting

 

[incrediblej]

don't need another kill move, since you can now go off the stage in Smash Mode and make it back like you're in Jump Mode. That's plenty of KO power. Quick Attack is much better on Shulk than on Pikachu imo, because Pikachu doesn't have the huge edgeguarding hitboxes.

also, Shulk's recovery in Shield and without Jump/Speed is meh, and QA fixes that

edit: also, I imagine that Monado Arts would affect QA maybe. that'd be interesting

You cant go off stage in one art and come back in another unless you do great timing and air dodge or attack when activating the next art to cancel the start up activation

 

[NairWizard]

You cant go off stage in one art and come back in another unless you do great timing and air dodge or attack when activating the next art to cancel the start up activation

I didn't say or imply that you could (or that this was practical to do). You misread the post.

 

[Yokoblue]

You cant go off stage in one art and come back in another unless you do great timing and air dodge or attack when activating the next art to cancel the start up activation

Cant you Click art - Jump immediately, attack or whatever you want, fall (monado activate), jump and retreat, UP B (if necessary) ???

 

[incrediblej]

@ NairWizard
I miss read I didn't realize you meant with a shulk with quick attack but that would be crazy the animation for other characters using quick atk

 

[incrediblej]

Well to cancel it you have to double tap to deactivate if it hasn't yet and then theirs the start up so might as well air dodge to avoid that start up cause its not worth it if you can't avoid it I've found my self in situations where I timed an air dodge wrong it took for ever for jump to take effect cause the starting animation on it can be canceled by prctically all his moves
@ Yokoblue

 

[Jaxas]

Speaking of Shulk and possibly borderline customs, what about Power Vision? I've heard that it has some absolutely insane knockback, like kill-Mega-Man sub 30% if you counter a pellet in HMSmash levels of crazy. Also, Vision's counter window returns to normal (the huuuuuuge window) upon losing a stock, or a certain amount (unsure of the specifics) of time passing. This could be... rather ridiculous in a 2stock meta especially.

Haven't tested it myself though, so I could just have faulty information.
Also note, I'm all for customs (because they're awesome) but this could be a problem we'll have to face if they become popular (and, again, if I actually have correct info).

 

[Tagxy]

Could be a game-changer for characters with momentum-shifting attacks or characters that like to have their opponents on the ground--

I think more context is added to this with the frame data you gave me before. Cover the ledge jump because they can act out of it soonest, as soon as you see they dont air jump cover their laggier get up or roll animations.

It varies between characters, but my estimate is an average of ~12 for Ledge Jump, ~32 for Ledge Climb, ~42 for Ledge Attack (with the attack hitting at ~22), and ~50 for Ledge Roll. That's doesn't help nearly as much as exact numbers, but it's a starting point, right?

 

[Saturn_]

So are customs just a 100% go from now on?? Main page of Smashboards makes it sound like customs are in at tournaments from now on.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So are customs just a 100% go from now on?? Main page of Smashboards makes it sound like customs are in at tournaments from now on.

"Ask your TO if customs are right for you and your community!"

(Yes, they are, and they should be 100% go. There's no reason not to.)

 

[Saturn_]

I am vehemently anti-custom, glad to see they're not the norm.

Is it just me or does Shulk have an extremely good matchup with Sheik? Just messing around with it, I find Shulk routinely living to 140%+ and killing at 80/90%. Smash Monado counters are ridiculous.

 

[Makorel]

Is it just me or does Shulk have an extremely good matchup with Sheik? Just messing around with it, I find Shulk routinely living to 140%+ and killing at 80/90%. Smash Monado counters are ridiculous.

Hyper Smash Monado Power Counters are even more ridiculouser.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I am vehemently anti-custom, glad to see they're not the norm.

Congrats, you're everything wrong with Sm4sh.

 

[Saturn_]

Congrats, you're everything wrong with Sm4sh.

The power of hidden information rewards defensive play. When no one is quite sure what their opponents are capable of, the campers stand victorious.

 

[webbedspace]

The Custom Moveset Project's setup requires each moveset be numbered and visible on the character select screen. "Hidden" it ain't.

Unless you mean "no one can possibly remember what all 600+ moves do", in which case I might mention that the number of moves that are actually tournament viable is... significantly lower than that. In fact, many defaults suddenly become unviable as a result of customs, so you can freely forget about those.

 

[Pazx]

The power of hidden information rewards defensive play. When no one is quite sure what their opponents are capable of, the campers stand victorious.

The solution is to play with customs and learn what they do instead of being ignorant and afraid of the unknown. Get familiar with the moves so that you don't have to treat them like "hidden information". We're all gonna get on with playing a great game, if you don't keep up that's a shame, but judging from your posts it's a problem with your attitude.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The power of hidden information rewards defensive play. When no one is quite sure what their opponents are capable of, the campers stand victorious.

Actually when a game is still developing rushdown is the best.

 

[TriTails]

You guys know what would be the most amazingly broken character in this game?

Luigi with airspeed yet with solid traction.

The character is busted as hell.

Speaking of Luigi, @ NairWizard I'd like to have your opinions on Villager vs Luigi MU. Sure, Villager is off to a hospital once Luigi gets in, but I dunno how he get through Villager's shenanigans, first. Okay, Fireballs stops Lloid, check. Slingshots can be cancelled with N-air, check. But I think that is about it. Though, I'm super inexperienced with the MU (Constant bad Villagers ecountered as Luigi while ecountering good Villagers as Dark Pit...). But I agree on how Luigi's mobility doesn't mean zoners are insta-win.

Vs Duck Hunt... I feel Luigi has the advantage here, or at least even. Fireballs stops 2 of his projectiles, and there's the can. Close combat is Luigi's. And DHD's projectiles are all too teleghraped.

Yep, everything you say makes solid sense (Pun entirely intended), but I still need some words about Villager. I am legimately curious .

 

[Sinister Slush]

The solution is to play with customs and learn what they do instead of being ignorant and afraid of the unknown.

But we're talking like 350+ customs we gotta memorize here.
Imagine the tierlist/MU discussion if we had to make separate discussions and factor in customs too, even with AA's project of certain 5/6 sets for each character.

Even then if you wanna be a bit more rational and say a good 100 or so is next to useless, then I guess 150+ customs that're worth using we still have to memorize.

 

[FimPhym]

If you think customs are bad, look at default moves. Each character has at least 17 different attacks they can use at neutral, and about 50 characters in the game. This means I have to memorise how all of my moves interact with every other character's moves, which is just shy of 15000 interactions - and that's just to learn one character! Talk about memorisation.


That deeply unconvinced feeling you are experiencing at my number and word shell game are roughly how I feel when people discuss "memorising customs". There are many short hands, affordances, fat trimming and flat out intuition which makes us learn these things fast.

 

[Sinister Slush]

More than 95% of the cast came from other smash iterations and we've had 15+ years of their movesets with small differences here or there in terms of just % frames etc.
So yah

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The power of hidden information rewards defensive play. When no one is quite sure what their opponents are capable of, the campers stand victorious.

You know, I was halfway kidding, and then you said this. At least you're in good company.

But we're talking like 350+ customs we gotta memorize here.
Imagine the tierlist/MU discussion if we had to make separate discussions and factor in customs too, even with AA's project of certain 5/6 sets for each character.

Even then if you wanna be a bit more rational and say a good 100 or so is next to useless, then I guess 150+ customs that're worth using we still have to memorize.

No offense, dude, but if you can't adapt, that's not my problem.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I can't adapt ;;

Seriously though, I don't care if customs are allowed or not, I won't lose sleep over it. 1111 best Yoshi setup on Mars. Maybe Lick.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't get why people say it's so much to remember. Most characters still tend to just use one or two different sets, regardless.

 

[dragontamer]

No offense, dude, but if you can't adapt, that's not my problem.

I personally am against the customs metagame frankly, because I think it unnecessarily adds to the scope of what needs to be learned in this game. As noted, the game has enough to learn as it is, and we don't even have a solid non-customs tier list yet.

I find it strange that people are already looking at other metagames when we haven't even explored the non-customs metagame in its entirety yet. But I do realize that my opinion is in the minority around here

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Regardless of how people feel about customs, I think that labeling it as a different metagame is a little silly. It is technically true, but it's really an extension of the current metagame; there is nothing in the non-custom metagame that is not in the custom metagame. Everything we learn in non-custom can be applied in custom.

 

[Runic_SSB]

I have no idea why Ganon still has warlock Punch, other then Sakurai purposefully ****ing in my cereal.

At least Warlock Blade makes the move usable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I personally am against the customs metagame frankly, because I think it unnecessarily adds to the scope of what needs to be learned in this game. As noted, the game has enough to learn as it is, and we don't even have a solid non-customs tier list yet.

I find it strange that people are already looking at other metagames when we haven't even explored the non-customs metagame in its entirety yet. But I do realize that my opinion is in the minority around here

It really isn't that much different. Your characters are still for the large part...the same characters. The majority of matchups don't change radically because of customs, though in several cases many become less polarizing.

It's better to just think of custom specials as just an extra 8 moves MAXIMUM for each character (in more cases, you only really need to know about maybe 3-4 moves for most characters when you realize several customs are not great in 1v1s)