Character Competitive Impressions

[Luigisama]

What about Delta-Cod? NAKAT did use pikachu recently, he randomly beat Mr. R 2-0 at a tournament a couple days ago. It was a bit sad actually.

Props to dabuz for doing well, but he'll definitely be seen as more of a villain if his style continues on his path. Well it is what it is, I didnt really mind too much nor am I worried. Many of his sets were very close and he clutched it out, and at that same tournament a few days ago he beat Mr. R but was double eliminated by nietono soundly. While everyone earned their placing, many results were a split hair away from being shaken up.

Delta didn't go.

 

[Yonder]

Not to digress, but I make it a very deliberate point to never identify anyone as "melee players" unless I am literally referring to "people who have played melee competitively at any point in time, including myself."

Melee was and is a great game. The improvements in Brawl and Smash 4 do not negate that.



Anyway, we've certainly gained a lot of character data today. Personally? I'm still unconvinced that Duck Hunt without zigzag can is truly viable. MVD was working twice as hard to make kills happen, in every sense, and it wasn't ultimately paying off.

Meanwhile, where the hell are Luigi, Pikachu, and Yoshi?

Well Luigi made top 16. Yoshi and Pikachu...there wasn't a single Pikachu. IMO Pikachu is overrated. Good, but overrated

 

[ぱみゅ]

people are saying Diddy is far and away the best in the game, needs to be nerfed, about 15-20% better than everyone, blah blah blah.

Just relax. Diddy has way more even-looking matchups than any prior perceived #1.

Diddy is definitely the best character in the game though (until proven otherwise). His aerials are ridiculously good, has tons of followups, insane mobility and a banana.
Maybe MetaKnight good against other Top Tiers, but he very probably has some even and negative obscure matchups.

At this point I do not think he deserves a ban (because there are far better options, like increasing stage variety and/or allowing Custom Moves) or a nerf (because I'm used to play without patches)

 

[Noa.]

I don't really get the impression that Diddy is that awful of a character. He's not that much farther ahead of the rest of the cast, and while it'd be difficult to argue now, Sheik probbaly will end up being the better character. It can be upsetting how easy Diddy is to pick up and play compared to the rest of the cast, but he's not as awful as MK.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Well Luigi made top 16. Yoshi and Pikachu...there wasn't a single Pikachu. IMO Pikachu is overrated. Good, but overrated

Not sure if you can conclude that from this tourney considering ESAM's absence. Pika may or may not be overrated, but we can't really say that for sure when Pika's main rep isn't even present.

 

[warionumbah2]

Maybe MetaKnight good against other Top Tiers, but he very probably has some even and negative obscure matchups.

Sonic is polarization at its best, Luigi is also a pain in the back side most likely the 2nd hardest MU the rest are imo even,slightly in their favor or flat out in our favor.

What are people's top tier characters anyway? i can only imagine Diddy,Sheik,Pikachu,Sonic,RosaLuma and Luigi.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think Dabuz proved Rosalina is still Top Tier, even if she is handily countered by Diddy.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think Dabuz proved Rosalina is still Top Tier, even if she is handily countered by Diddy.

Were people saying otherwise? If so ....what!? Nerfing a character wisly does not just destroy a character. same goes for greninja and bowser who overall were not changed 2 much. still sucks no bowsersides.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Diddy isn't that much better than the characters around him.

 

[HFlash]

Yes please to patch. I feel that if left as is, the game would probably get a bit stale, simply because Diddy is too good and too basic. There's really just no reason to learn more complex characters when you can pick up Diddy and be competitive with him in like 3 hours.

I'd also like to see Zelda, Samus, and some of the other bad characters get some help.


Speaking of which, I've now heard the Diddy Kong win jingle so many times that my brain has put words to it.

Diddy Kong won
cuz Diddy too strong
Fix your stupid game Sak-u-raii

Yea, that's the issue with Diddy. Can you beat him with someone else? Sure, but he just he is so straightforward and simple to play, that when your tournament life is in the line, you are gonna take any advantage you can get.

 

[HeroMystic]

Were people saying otherwise? If so ....what!? Nerfing a character wisly does not just destroy a character. same goes for greninja and bowser who overall were not changed 2 much. still sucks no bowsersides.

Japan didn't have much of a good opinion on Rosalina after her nerfs and she was out of the limelight in the US with only Dabuz and Xaltis being the popular Rosalina mains, Dabuz far more than Xaltis.

We thought we figured her out, but Dabuz taught us otherwise.

 

[oldkingcroz]

@ warionumbah2 - Yoshi, Ness, Greninja, Fox, Pit, Captain Falcon, and Zero Suit are also very good characters (and rather fast, much like the characters you listed). Easily "Top Tier". Speed is a good trait to have.

And then there are characters like Olimar, Duck Hunt, PacMan, Mega Man, Shulk, Peach, DK, Wario, Mario, Villager, etc who all are rather viable yet are underplayed. Wouldn't be surprised if some of these characters ended up being "Top Tier" with the others- if they became more popular. But, it is a popularity contest in one way or another. I've seen people rate Game and Watch as bottom tier, which, honestly, is a little odd. Nobody's really seen a really good Game and Watch before. He has some quick, long lasting moves, great customs (killing Up B, insane increase in 9 judgement, quick neutral B, giant neutral B), and a good off stage game. If everybody plays Diddy- his esteem is rather inflated. Everybody thinks Diddy is the best because some of the best Smash 4 players play him. Diddys good- great infact- but there are quite a few charcters in the game that are great, but aren't as popular.

 

[Iron Kraken]

The reasons many people thought (or still think) Rosa is not top tier are:

1 - She was nerfed. The nerfs mattered but people's perception of how significant the nerfs were got blown way out of proportion (although the patch did admittedly change the complexion of her match up with Diddy).
2 - She's not an especially aggro character (although she certainly can be played aggressively, she's obviously not played like Diddy or Sheik). I've been saying this for months, but the competitive Smash community in general has a bias towards aggro characters. I think it's a combination of several things... such as the influence of Melee, the influence of Meta Knight... and the fact that people simply believe aggro characters are best, which in turn means that the vast majority of the top players use these kinds of characters, which in turn contributes to the perception that the best characters are aggro. Which plays right into point #3.
3 - Very, very few pros have even attempted to learn Rosalina, not even as a secondary character. Which previously established high level Smash player has really given Rosalina a chance, besides Dabuz? But people believe in what they see. So since people don't see much Rosalina, many people figure this must be because she isn't top tier.

FWIW I believe the same arguments can be made about Yoshi and Lucario (who many people in this thread seem to think is like C-tier or something.... which I think is crazy), but that's another discussion.

 

[Saltix]

And I guarantee you there are more Rosalina tricks that have yet to see the light of day

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I think Dabuz proved Rosalina is still Top Tier, even if she is handily countered by Diddy.

I don't know about that.

/theorycraft.

What is scary about a long-range Lumashot? In fact do you guys feel that Luma-shot from half the stage is *more* pressure then Lasers, Eggs,Peanuts, Needles, Water shurikens, Auraspheres or missiles?
If anything everything about default Rosaluma says Mid-range to me, not long-range. She can't play a zoning war with Pac-man, she doesn't have a projectile to do so, unlike Mega-man or Samus who *can* answer right back to Pac-man with their own long-ranged zoning tools. Gravitational pull shutsdown projectiles but that really just allows her to approach into mid-range where her effective range is Longer then Shulks, with better start-up frames, at the cost that her range can be destroyed for 14 seconds.

I think Rosaluma is strong but I think its for different reasons then were dominantly displayed at Apex. She's really annoying in Mid-range and even CQC. She's not weak at *either*. She's actually bad at long-range until customs come into play since her long-range option....is to throw out her entire gimmick at the opposition in a well telegraphed shot and risk losing it. There's a lot this character does very well, and potently but if I was basing her tier position off Apex, then Pac-man is top tier. Maybe that is the case and he is, but I dunno. I say this partially thinking over @ Shaya 's having Rosaluma as a Long-range zoner in the previous breakdown done of 'archetypes', and going back on Apex, she doesn't long-range zone very well in default. Almost everyone with a projectile was zoning better...her real effective reach was like Ness PK-fire range, in a game where Yoshi, Fox, Falco, Pacman, Megaman, Villager, Samus, Mii Gunner, Sheik, Diddy, Toon Link, Link probably a couple others I'm forgetting can well do long-range zoning straight better.

She's a mid-range (and maybe that's not even the right wording) zoner with anti-zoning. Her real effective range is akin to Speed Shulks, but she's got waaay better frame data on him.

 

[Iron Kraken]

And I guarantee you there are more Rosalina tricks that have yet to see the light of day

Most definitely. The Rosalina meta is unfortunately evolving at a much slower pace than some of the other metas because of the tiny number of people contributing to her meta. And given all the potential that Rosalina & Luma have, it's crazy to think about how much there is to be discovered with her.

 

[FullMoon]

The reasons many people thought (or still think) Rosa is not top tier are:

1 - She was nerfed. The nerfs mattered but people's perception of how significant the nerfs were got blown way out of proportion.

This is what happened to Greninja in a nutshell.

 

[HFlash]

This is what happened to Greninja in a nutshell.

This is actually a common thing to happen in all games
Source: I play League of Legends as well and people react exactly the same to nerfs

 

[Emblem Lord]

No Greninja got hit hard. WAY harder then other characters. He is def weaker, and NOT top tier. He sits just outside of top tier.

What hurt him really was the shuriken nerf. It tied together his neutral game.

 

[⑨ball]

No Greninja got hit hard. WAY harder then other characters.

Arguably. RIP shield/reflect stab. We barely knew ye.
;-;

 

[FullMoon]

No Greninja got hit hard. WAY harder then other characters. He is def weaker, and NOT top tier. He sits just outside of top tier.

What hurt him really was the shuriken nerf. It tied together his neutral game.

I never denied that. He got hit hard by the nerf hammer, but people still blew it out of proportion and started considering him trash. Like you said, Greninja is just outside of top tier, but you wouldn't think that judging from what people were saying back then.

 

[NairWizard]

Greninja has great mobility specs and setups, but I don't think that he is great (as in, in the highest echelon of characters), because his specials are rather situational. You can do some cool things with them, because they're different, but seriously, compare his specials to those of a few other commonly perceived as good characters.

Needles, Bouncing Fish, and Vanish? OP.
Monkey Flip and Banana Peel? Super strong. Peanuts and Rocketbarrels are closer to Greninja levels of good, though.
Thunder, Thunderjolt, Quick Attack? Disgusting.
Fireball, Cape, Fludd, Super Jump out of shield? Specials is certainly not Mario's weak spot.
OK, so egg roll is awful. But Egg Toss, Egg Lay, and Yoshi Bomb (whatever it's called)? Crazy dominant in lots of matchups.
Paralyzer? Boost Kick? Flip Kick? All great.
Spindash is amazing. Other specials? I'd talk about other specials if he had them.

What does Greninja have? A cool but gimpable (and situationally useful when not recovering) up-b in Hydro Pump, a laggy move that doesn't work against smart opponents in Shadow Sneak (but has some edgeguarding and movement applications, *sometimes*, and works well on shadowy stages lol), an inflexible and now punishable (post-patch; pre-patch it was spammable) projectile in Water Shuriken since you can't save the charge or move while using it, and one of the gimmickiest, weirdest options in Substitute, arguably the worst counter in most situations but with some niche edgeguarding applications once again. Yeah, I'd call those pretty situational.

He could still be top tier if his normals were slightly better: he needs better autocancel windows on his aerials for that though. Or his old Shuriken back.

He has potential. Top-tier potential, though? Doubt it highly. Also not very confident in Duck Hunt Dog overall, but that's a story for another day.

On another note, I think the thing that struck me most about Apex was how good Sonic has the potential to become. Reduce dependency on spindash, improve midrange game -> one scary character.

 

[Nu~]

I never denied that. He got hit hard by the nerf hammer, but people still blew it out of proportion and started considering him trash. Like you said, Greninja is just outside of top tier, but you wouldn't think that judging from what people were saying back then.

Yeah man. People immediately deemed him bottom tier and "a lesser shiek."
You don't know how annoying it is to hear my friends call greninja "greshiek" every time I use him.

 

[Grass]

Yeah man. People immediately deemed him bottom tier and "a lesser shiek."
You don't know how annoying it is to hear my friends call greninja "greshiek" every time I use him.

this made me laugh. Also since when is Ffamram a mod?

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja has great mobility specs and setups, but I don't think that he is great (as in, in the highest echelon of characters), because his specials are rather situational. You can do some cool things with them, because they're different, but seriously, compare his specials to those of a few other commonly perceived as good characters.

Needles, Bouncing Fish, and Vanish? OP.
Monkey Flip and Banana Peel? Super strong. Peanuts and Rocketbarrels are closer to Greninja levels of good, though.
Thunder, Thunderjolt, Quick Attack? Disgusting.
Fireball, Cape, Fludd, Super Jump out of shield? Specials is certainly not Mario's weak spot.
OK, so egg roll is awful. But Egg Toss, Egg Lay, and Yoshi Bomb (whatever it's called)? Crazy dominant in lots of matchups.
Paralyzer? Boost Kick? Flip Kick? All great.
Spindash is amazing. Other specials? I'd talk about other specials if he had them.

What does Greninja have? A cool but gimpable (and situationally useful when not recovering) up-b in Hydro Pump, a laggy move that doesn't work against smart opponents in Shadow Sneak (but has some edgeguarding and movement applications, *sometimes*, and works well on shadowy stages lol), an inflexible and now punishable (post-patch; pre-patch it was spammable) projectile in Water Shuriken since you can't save the charge or move while using it, and one of the gimmickiest, weirdest options in Substitute, arguably the worst counter in most situations but with some niche edgeguarding applications once again. Yeah, I'd call those pretty situational.

He could still be top tier if his normals were slightly better: he needs better autocancel windows on his aerials for that though. Or his old Shuriken back.

He has potential. Top-tier potential, though? Doubt it highly. Also not very confident in Duck Hunt Dog overall, but that's a story for another day.

On another note, I think the thing that struck me most about Apex was how good Sonic has the potential to become. Reduce dependency on spindash, improve midrange game -> one scary character.

Gimpable? I almost never see Greninja get gimped when we have Shadow Sneak and Hydro Pump for recovery, he probably has one of the best recoveries in the game.

Substitute is a better counter than everyone thinks, even we Greninja mains really underestimated how good it can be for killing. Water Shuriken is still good for what it is in that it forces people to approach Greninja and makes them play their game unless they can outcamp him. Shadow Sneak is situational, yes, but it can still catch people offguard.

Hydro Pump is great for gimping, mobility, putting people in bad situations where he can catch them with Up-Smash and overall helping Greninja reset to neutral from disadvantage. Water Shuriken still does a good job at poking opponents and forcing approaches, as well as fully charged shurikens setting up combos and being a solid kill move.

Hydro Pump is too versatile to not be considered great, Water Shuriken is still good. Substitute and Shadow Sneak are situational but with proper use they do great.

Greninja is not made to be a character where you can easily spam things to win. He involves a lot of quick thinking and smart use of his options to catch people off-guard. It's why he's one of the hardest characters to play, because he's not a very straight-forward character, which is not a bad thing at all as he is still very effective in the right hands.

He might not be top tier, he's probably about Top 20, but he can still put out a good fight with most Top Tiers and I don't feel like he has a huge disadvantage against any characters, except maybe Sonic.

 

[Ffamran]

This is what happened to Greninja in a nutshell.

Meanwhile in Falco's world... Was Falco an aggressive character in Brawl? I wasn't a part of the competitive scene in previous games, but from clips that I have seen, Melee Falco was aggressive, but I don't know about Falco. I kind of feel like Falco and Marth became more defensive in SSB4 which apparently equals bottom tier for some reason like how people felt like Greninja just dropped off the face of the Earth after patch 1.04. Greninja reminds me of guerrilla warfare which means hit and run tactics and ambushes. Considering that Greninja is based on a ninja, that should be no surprise. It's just Sheik is more upfront while Greninja prefers to ambush.

this made me laugh. Also since when is Ffamram a mod?

Since January 15, 2015.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Falco was mostly campy in Brawl

 

[Big-Cat]

I found it strange that Dabuz didn't send Luma out that much to control space.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Meanwhile in Falco's world... Was Falco an aggressive character in Brawl? I wasn't a part of the competitive scene in previous games, but from clips that I have seen, Melee Falco was aggressive, but I don't know about Falco. I kind of feel like Falco and Marth became more defensive in SSB4 which apparently equals bottom tier for some reason like how people felt like Greninja just dropped off the face of the Earth after patch 1.04. Greninja reminds me of guerrilla warfare which means hit and run tactics and ambushes. Considering that Greninja is based on a ninja, that should be no surprise. It's just Sheik is more upfront while Greninja prefers to ambush.


Since January 15, 2015.

Sort of, he played it mostly using lasers in neutral to control space and force people to approach. Could be played either way but it leaned on going for forcing people to come to him vs him using it for set-ups.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Hey guys just wondering is Apex ever going to publish the top 32 and not just 16? Seeing only the top 16 sort of sucks. I wanted to see what characters were used and such. Since each pool was a DE, that means that the second round of DE pools (top 2 of these moved onto the top 16 bracket) had a 3rd and 4th place finisher. Meaning there is a 17th-24th finisher, and then 25th-32nd.

Also I'm wondering, why was Top 32 changed to Top 16, or was that a mistake in the Challonge name? Is that just how the pools and number of players worked out the best and cleanest? Melee had 48 so i don't see why smash 4 was changed to 16 from 32.

Anyone know what other characters were used in the top 32? I know Ness from Fow and I heard he got 17th (so third place in his pool).

 

[Ffamran]

Falco was mostly campy in Brawl

Yeah, I remember seeing a match with Brawl Falco and there was a lot of lasers being thrown out and some stuff like Dairs... His Bair has always been good, but in SSB4, it lost part of its hitbox by becoming Wolf's Bair. Wolf was sort of camping in a sense he could throw out shots, but it was more to zone before he got in to throw out Bairs, Nairs, Dairs, and Fairs for kills.

If anything, Falco pretty much plays similarly except he can't spam Blaster anymore and is more upfront and punishing. I rarely played as Falco and I was never in the competitive scene, so that's all I can say.

Sort of, he played it mostly using lasers in neutral to control space and force people to approach. Could be played either way but it leaned on going for forcing people to come to him vs him using it for set-ups.

Isn't this what Wolf did too except Wolf had the air speed to get in and use his aerials while Falco's air speed is crappy and makes his aerial approaches less effective? It's the end lag and travel speed of Falco's Blaster's lasers - and the sound effect since I found Brawl's sound effect for Falco's Blaster much cooler. In Brawl, those lasers traveled fast and far, but not they cover like half of Final Destination and travel slower than... I want to say Luigi's Fireballs. If they had speed or distance, it might not have been much of a problem for his end lag or if end lag was much less, then it wouldn't be a problem. Wolf at least had a bayonet for his Blaster in case he used it too close and the shots had a large hitbox in comparison to Fox and Falco's lasers along with a growing knockback?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Also I'm wondering, why was Top 32 changed to Top 16, or was that a mistake in the Challonge name? Is that just how the pools and number of players worked out the best and cleanest? Melee had 48 so i don't see why smash 4 was changed to 16 from 32.

They did it to save time. Had to happen unfortunately.

I heard Bloodcross (Charizard) was in the top 32 but don't quote me on that. :V

 

[NairWizard]

Substitute is a better counter than everyone thinks, even we Greninja mains really underestimated how good it can be especially for killing. Water Shuriken is still good for what it is in that it forces people to approach Greninja and makes them play their game unless they can outcamp him. Shadow Sneak is situational, yes, but it can still catch people offguard.

You're trying to tell me that his specials aren't useless. I get that, and that's completely true. I didn't say that Greninja has the worst specials in the game. The word situational literally implies that they have uses in certain situations. But Top Tiers have specials that literally feel unfair in many situations.

Competitive fighters, and other competitive games like card games, aren't about being good enough or good, they're about being really dominant and having options that overwhelm your opponent. Greninja doesn't have those kinds of specials. Water Shuriken forces people to approach, yes... but that's about as useful as, say, Diddy's Peanut Popgun or Link's arrows. Not something you think of when you think of being dominated. When was the last time you got dominated by peanuts?

Needles are super dominant, on the other hand; not only do they force approaches, they can also lead to Bouncing Fish setups, can gimp, are practically invisible so rack up fast damage, and can be stored for infinite mindgames.

Similarly, Shadow Sneak can "catch people offguard," sure, but it's not in the same tier of effectiveness as forcibly dismantling someone's guard, like Monkey Flip does.

I may be underestimating Hydro Pump because it is worse than Quick Attack, so I won't comment on that.

Greninja is not made to be a character where you can easily spam things to win. He involves a lot of quick thinking and smart use of his options to catch people off-guard. It's why he's one of the hardest characters to play, because he's not a very straight-forward character, which is not a bad thing at all as he is still very effective in the right hands.

I don't think I said anything that disagrees with this or you. "Character is not among the best, and has tools that don't match Top/High Tier tools" does not imply "character is bad/easy to play."

The potential is there, as it is with Peach, and Greninja is in fact hard to use. But it's worth noting that being hard to use isn't the only reason that Greninja has little representation: he's also legitimately worse than the top tier. More effort for less reward isn't often appealing. Good to keep a sense of scope.

Top 20 sounds reasonable, though. Maybe even top 15.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Meanwhile in Falco's world... Was Falco an aggressive character in Brawl? I wasn't a part of the competitive scene in previous games, but from clips that I have seen, Melee Falco was aggressive, but I don't know about Falco. I kind of feel like Falco and Marth became more defensive in SSB4 which apparently equals bottom tier for some reason like how people felt like Greninja just dropped off the face of the Earth after patch 1.04. Greninja reminds me of guerrilla warfare which means hit and run tactics and ambushes. Considering that Greninja is based on a ninja, that should be no surprise. It's just Sheik is more upfront while Greninja prefers to ambush.


Since January 15, 2015.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypbIER4nLas
this is primarily falco in brawl.

 

[Tristan_win]

No Greninja got hit hard. WAY harder then other characters. He is def weaker, and NOT top tier. He sits just outside of top tier.

What hurt him really was the shuriken nerf. It tied together his neutral game.

I think what hurt Greninja the most wasn't his direct nerfs but the removal of VI. When VI was in the game there were combo's but a lot of them weren't constant, well Greninja doesn't have a lot of combo's to begin with so this didn't really matter to him. However once VI was removed almost everyone around him suddenly got much better, got more constant damage and even kill options but poor Greninja it seems didn't get anything new.

Meh, nvm.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I found it strange that Dabuz didn't send Luma out that much to control space.

Sending Luma out isn't something you should do very often. You're risking losing her prematurely (which is bad for obvious reasons), you lose a more-or-less reliable way to break out of grabs, you lose a way to absorb hits and punish, you lose SHNAir for creating space, you lose AC aerial shenanigans for offensive rolls+shields (sort of gimmicky but still), and you lose the setup hits for FAir and UAir.

 

[Gunla]

With certain MUs, it becomes apparent that Luma Shot has very little viability, as with characters like Sheik, for instance, they can take Luma from 0 to death with maybe one or two hits.

I think because Dabuz had barely any experience with the Pac MU, for instance, he just decided to play it really safe.

 

[Lavani]

I think what hurt Greninja the most wasn't his direct nerfs but the removal of VI. When VI was in the game there were combo's but a lot of them weren't constant, well Greninja doesn't have a lot of combo's to begin with so this didn't really matter to him. However once VI was removed almost everyone around him suddenly got much better, got more constant damage and even kill options but poor Greninja it seems didn't get anything new.

...eh? Greninja has a lot of combo options. The problem is 1.0.4 made his combos worse; usmash is no longer combo filler with its increased end lag (to be fair, this was highly justified), and combos into uair/fair don't kill like they used to. He also has one of the few multihit aerials that had autolink angles removed from certain hits to make his uair spike more difficult, though with autolink spikes being weakened in the patch he also obtained a utilt>ff uair loop that true combos, but is absurdly precise.

I've felt since 1.0.4 hit that he'd probably still be in the upper end of the cast if he still had his old uair/fair and water shuriken. I still feel reverting those three nerfs is about all he'd need.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ ChronoPenguin it's true that Rosalina lacks the tools to camp at long range unless she's using Shooting Star Bit, but at the same time the mere existence of Gravitational Pull means you can't camp her at long range either. That alone I think puts her at the advantage in such a situation because there's very few projectiles in the game that she can't deal with. (Din's Fire and customs, PK Flash and customs, Impatient Mechakoopa, and I think that's it?)

EDIT: To clarify, she does have trouble with an aggressive mid to close range projectile war where someone like Mega Man can follow up hits with more hits or punish bad GPull use, but that's a different sort of situation.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

@ ChronoPenguin it's true that Rosalina lacks the tools to camp at long range unless she's using Shooting Star Bit, but at the same time the mere existence of Gravitational Pull means you can't camp her at long range either. That alone I think puts her at the advantage in such a situation because there's very few projectiles in the game that she can't deal with. (Din's Fire and customs, PK Flash and customs, Impatient Mechakoopa, and I think that's it?)

A bit off topic, but PK Flash and Din's Fire are weird in that neither GP nor Pocket affects them. I didn't know about Impatient Mechakoopa; does it not count as a projectile at all?