Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

he went for a Falcon Punch and M2K punched him in real life right afterwards.

The only good part of that set.

Edit: Also, we will apparently get a chance to see how good a Diddy-less Zero really is when he stops maining him and switches to Falcon/Shulk

I'm looking forward to it, but I don't expect the same level of dominance.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Zero isn't maining Shulk.
I believe that like I believe in the tooth Fairy.

He'll play more Falcon overtime.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Zero is just all-around the best player in this game, it's pretty obvious.

A couple of weeks ago he had a series of best-out-of-9 character specific match ups against Nairo (who I believe is a top 10 Sm4sh player in the world) and although Nairo put up a good fight, Zero won every single match up. (the match ups were Bowser vs Zelda, Falcon vs ZSS, Fox vs Robin, and Sheik vs. Pit/Dark Pit. I think that's pretty solid proof that Zero doesn't need Diddy to win. He just needs Diddy to be where he is right now, which is a class above everyone else at the moment.

 

[Dooms]

Not reading 30 pages of Apex discussion but I'll give my thoughts.

Apart from venue madness, this was a pretty by-the-numbers Apex. The results were exactly what we thought they were going to be, and there were generally very few surprises. Nevertheless here's my quick analysis and thoughts.

First of all, I'd like to give a shoutout to Dabuz, who is easily the player's champion of Apex. Dabuz vs Abadango and Dabuz vs Mew2King were easily the two best matches of the finals, and he did it using a bizarre combination of Rosalina and Olimar. From Dabuz's performance, I think we can conclude that Rosalina is definitely still a threat. Olimar isn't as clear, I buy that his matchup vs Diddy is not terrible, but as a character I still don't think he's that solid.

It was really unfortunate that Abadango and Dabuz met up as early as they did. Pac vs Rosa is clearly an atrocious matchup for Pac, likely -3 or maybe even -4, if played properly she just shuts down everything he can do and even uses it against him. This reinforces my belief that Pac-Man is kinda mid tier and likely can't be played without a secondary, a few of his matchups are just too bad. Still, props to Abadango for making it that far. Pac buffs plz Sakurai, likely some kind of improvement to his grab.

I think any claims that Zero is just a smash god who would win with any character can be laid to rest after this tournament. Yes, he is amazing with Diddy, but his Falcon didn't look nearly as good and it's pretty clear he would not have won if he was using Falcon exclusively. He might be the best Smash 4 player, but if so it's not by that much and a lot of it is indeed the power of Diddy Kong.

Speaking of Diddy, I think it's fairly clear that he is definitely the best character in the game. I would say Diddy is about 15% better than Sheik, who is about 15% better than the next set of characters (the rest of high tier). If he didn't get adjusted, some kind of soft ban would likely eventually be necessary, though it's pretty clear that he will get some kind of tonedown eventually because even Japan has figured out how broken this character is.

Oh well, so begins the long road to EVO. Anyone want to predict how broken or weak M2 will be?

I mean, if you went into a tournament using only a secondary, would you expect to do as well as when you enter with your main? When people say that, they mean if he actually put as much time into that character as he did for his Diddy Kong (which he simply hasn't done with Falcon), so of course he isn't going to win anything with Falcon.

Diddy and Sheik are really close. Just because ZeRo does better than Sheik mains doesn't mean that Diddy is 15% better than Sheik. ZeRo is just 15% better than everyone that showed up at Apex. :x

Also, I'm shocked if anyone expected MVD or a DH in top 8. I'm super proud of him as a DH main, but I definitely didn't expect it (nor did anyone else from what I know of).

 

[thehard]

The Mr. R/Nietono Sheik ditto was really interesting. I can't describe it as anything more than a solid, high-level match.

 

[Terotrous]

Diddy and Sheik are really close. Just because ZeRo does better than Sheik mains doesn't mean that Diddy is 15% better than Sheik. ZeRo is just 15% better than everyone that showed up at Apex. :x

Personally I think Zero is about 5% better than anyone else as a player, and Diddy is about 20-25% better than most characters (maybe only 10% vs Sheik, but it's still noticeable).

You'd basically have to have a 25-30% skill advantage to do what he did where he 2-stocked pretty much everyone (and won all of Apex without dropping a single game except for that one where he went Falcon). If you were just, say, 5% better overall, sure you would still win quite a lot but you'd lose some occasionally.

The Mr. R/Nietono Sheik ditto was really interesting. I can't describe it as anything more than a solid, high-level match.

It was solid but honestly I can't get that hype for sheik vs sheik. I just don't find sheik very interesting as a character.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Pac doesn't need a buff, Abadango beat Dabuzz round 1, and got timed out in the second and third matches.
Home boy legit stood the chance to 2-0 Dabuzz the way he was playing and with the adaptions he was making.

I doubt Dabuzz won't be studying the Pac matchup after that fight.

 

[Terotrous]

Pac doesn't need a buff, Abadango beat Dabuzz round 1, and got timed out in the second and third matches.

2nd and 3rd matches were pretty dominant though. The more Dabuz figured out the matchup, the more impossible it looks.

Note that Dabuz has likely rarely if ever faced a Pac of that caliber before, but he still made it look almost unwinnable for Abadango.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

2nd and 3rd matches were pretty dominant though. The more Dabuz figured out the matchup, the more impossible it looks.

Note that Dabuz has likely rarely if ever faced a Pac of that caliber before, but he still made it look almost unwinnable for Abadango.

I break down that match in two sections.
Rosalina went for Gpulls. Abadango adapted and decided to not just chuck items but use them to string in follow ups.
He went for a grab follow up it didn't work, he never went for it again, Dabuzz would shield everytime the aerial came out. Pac-mans Up special and Grab (despite otherwise being unwieldy), beat Shield. for the *specific* defensive option Dabuzz consistently used, Abadango had options and he had used them before, but went for aerials in the later section of the match. This might of been because he was trying to condition a response, I can't tell you exactly how he planned things out, only how I interprete it. If he had been given more time, he probably would've punished Dabuzz for shielding, if he was in-fact conditioning that response.
-3, -4? That's crazy because given how they *fought*, that was the most neutral match I would of never assumed was near neutral, but Abadango played so well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pac-Man indeed doesn't need a buff. The only thing that should be changed about him would be to undo the superfluous nerf of hydrant having 13 instead of 12 HP that came with the patch.

The Mr. R/Nietono Sheik ditto was really interesting. I can't describe it as anything more than a solid, high-level match.

Eh, I honestly expected Nietono to put on a better fight considering some of the ridiculous stuff he'd pull off back when he played Greninja. I wonder how Shu would perform against Ramin, he's the Sheik player with the placings in Japan rigt now.

 

[Terotrous]

I break down that match in two sections.
Rosalina went for Gpulls. Abadango adapted and decided to not just chuck items

Honestly I feel like the match is lost at this point. Hydrant and items are what makes Pac-Man as a character. Sure, he can try to use his neutrals, his godawful grab, and trampoline shenanigans, but he's basically like half a character with items gone, and it's not even a good half.


IMO GPull needs more cooldown or something so at least if he baits it he can get a big punish. Also, Pac-Man's grab hitboxes need to actually line up with the tractor beam. I'm fine with it remaining horribly slow, but it should at least not have a huge deadzone.

 

[thehard]

Abadango's Up-Bs at close range were genius

 

[ChronoPenguin]

He still got items. Dabuzz was throwing out multiple Gravitational Pulls not in reaction but just in case of what Abadango *might* do. Abadango still got his projectiles through, and he still put pressure on Dabuzz for trying to Gpull. If it was -3 or -4 believe that wouldn't of gone to time, Dabuzz would have won...except the only time it didn't he lost.

Dabuzz would shield and Abadango just went in his face and popped him up with the trampoline.

The aerolink game was good too, but the funny thing was, I think Aerolinks Paletuna had a greater chance of actually KOing pacman then Rosalina. The position changes aerolink was doing at the end to better break through that zone and to set-up more appropriate reflects did not go unseen.

 

[Antonykun]

Amsa got me to look at Greninja, and wow is this guy bait and punish. With his movement specs and things like d-tilt and Hydro Pump he can get you in situations where you lose to f-air and Up smash. I feel like his entire kit was designed with this in mind.

 

[FullMoon]

Amsa got me to look at Greninja, and wow is this guy bait and punish. With his movement specs and things like d-tilt and Hydro Pump he can get you in situations where you lose to f-air and Up smash. I feel like his entire kit was designed with this in mind.

Pretty much, Greninja is very good at baiting the opponent and with his kill setups, falling for his baits can be very costly or result in you getting being hit by good damage-racking combos. The tricky part with Greninja is managing to fully control his mobility, as well as getting around his problems with the neutral and poor OoS options. You also need to be good at mindgames to use him effectivelly as well.

 

[Antonykun]

Pretty much, Greninja is very good at baiting the opponent and with his kill setups, falling for his baits can be very costly or result in you getting being hit by good damage-racking combos. The tricky part with Greninja is managing to fully control his mobility, as well as getting around his problems with the neutral and poor OoS options. You also need to be good at mindgames to use him effectivelly as well.

That seems around right with both his kit and how Amsa played.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Personally I think Zero is about 5% better than anyone else as a player, and Diddy is about 20-25% better than most characters (maybe only 10% vs Sheik, but it's still noticeable).

You'd basically have to have a 25-30% skill advantage to do what he did where he 2-stocked pretty much everyone (and won all of Apex without dropping a single game except for that one where he went Falcon). If you were just, say, 5% better overall, sure you would still win quite a lot but you'd lose some occasionally.



It was solid but honestly I can't get that hype for sheik vs sheik. I just don't find sheik very interesting as a character.

I believe Mr R. actually did take one match off of him as Diddy. No Diddy did that to him, including M2K, so I'm not sure it's clear at all that the largest reason for the skill gap is the character. Either way it's only a matter of time before the game is patched and/or customs are legalized, so we're not looking at 6 years of a static meta in which Diddy rules with an iron fist.

 

[Terotrous]

I believe Mr R. actually did take one match off of him as Diddy. No Diddy did that to him, including M2K, so I'm not sure it's clear at all that the largest reason for the skill gap is the character. Either way it's only a matter of time before the game is patched and/or customs are legalized, so we're not looking at 6 years of a static meta in which Diddy rules with an iron fist.

Yes please to patch. I feel that if left as is, the game would probably get a bit stale, simply because Diddy is too good and too basic. There's really just no reason to learn more complex characters when you can pick up Diddy and be competitive with him in like 3 hours.

I'd also like to see Zelda, Samus, and some of the other bad characters get some help.


Speaking of which, I've now heard the Diddy Kong win jingle so many times that my brain has put words to it.

Diddy Kong won
cuz Diddy too strong
Fix your stupid game Sak-u-raii

 

[⑨ball]

Abadango's Up-Bs at close range were genius

Most looked like standard tourney level Pac Man stuff that even I picked up during my short time playing, but his traps were seriously next level.

Even though I was rooting for my boy NinjaLink I had to respect that ledge trampoline he set up. Seriously brilliant stuff.
Speaking of that match, it looks like that HP increase for the hydrant actually helped here. Otherwise, Abadango would have had a similarly difficult time as he did against Dabuz, as NL is a master of the attacking while holding items technique. He was utilizing it very well to cut down Pac Man's options and force an approach, but the hydrant remained a threat that lemons just couldn't stand up to.

Shoutouts to Cave Johnson during that set.

 

[Diddy Kong]

>People asking for Diddy U Air nerfs as if this was Project M
>Ignoring the fact Smash Wii U has more viable characters than ever before
>Just 2 Diddy's in the finals- everyone still losing their **** about U Air
>'Ohhh Fox won Melee again? Gg! Nice set!'

 

[Terotrous]

>People asking for Diddy U Air nerfs as if this was Project M
>Ignoring the fact Smash Wii U has more viable characters than ever before
>Just 2 Diddy's in the finals- everyone still losing their **** about U Air
>'Ohhh Fox won Melee again? Gg! Nice set!'

To be fair I was asking for PAL nerfs to spacies on PM for like half a year. They eventually decided to nerf every other character instead, then I stopped playing it.

 

[|RK|]

I don't think Zero is gonna stick with Shulk for long. That character is actually hard to play.

I remember watching one of Zero's videos from a while back - he seems to genuinely enjoy Shulk's playstyle. I think Zero's Shulk will be really cool to see.

 

[Diddy Kong]

To be fair I was asking for PAL nerfs to spacies on PM for like half a year. They eventually decided to nerf every other character instead, then I stopped playing it.

Because this fanbase likes to abuse OP tactics as long as they can claim 'it looks flashy' or 'takes skill'. PAL spacies where a lot more managable (coming from a PAL region myself) and gave way for a lot more Marths, Peaches and Puffs especially in Europe.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Rosalina essentially renders half of Pac's kit useless, and the other half is outclassed by Jab shenanigans.

Other baddish matchups are Yoshi (NOT THE DAIR NOT THE DAIR, Mobility, and Eggs) and Lucario (Micro Spheres at max Aura one shot Hydrant) o.O

Abadadalaladangidiggydingodango played a bit too campy for my taste. Where he would run away again and again, I would've hit the opponent with a Nair.
I haven't seen a single Melon in all of his play. Not sure if it's a good or bad thing.
I think unpredictability would be nice for Abadango's play too. Jumping up to Hydrant and camp is nice, but he really shined at his use of the tra(m)poline.

Obligatory Weegee Talk:

Mr. ConCon, BelaC and J. Miller (And @TriTails 's propaganda) made me want to try (and after APEX, main) Luigi so badly. The comboes are real.
He's kind of a cage, A cage isn't very mobile, but moves like Nair and brick wall broken Bair all "lock" you in Luigi's range.

What APEX means for the future?
I have good hope that it won't be HooHah Banana Boogaloo. Just for the fact I've seen DK vs Kirby in an actual match.
That, and Sheik, Sonic and even Diddy are pretty hype to watch. For now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

>People asking for Diddy U Air nerfs as if this was Project M
>Ignoring the fact Smash Wii U has more viable characters than ever before
>Just 2 Diddy's in the finals- everyone still losing their **** about U Air
>'Ohhh Fox won Melee again? Gg! Nice set!'

To be fair Diddy's uair is legitimately a broken move. Like, not "broken" in the way that a lot of smashers like to randomly throw out that word for everything that's powerful but actually broken. Look at the risk / reward ratio. How big is the risk of a move that has 3 frames start-up lag, auto-cancels and has a rather big hitbox that doesn't only hit on top of it but also covers Diddy's entire front? It's virtually non-existent. How big is the reward of a move that combos into itself and other moves at low percent, starts killing at moderately high percent and is entirely safe on block? The reward is massive. So you have a move with risk ratio equal to zero and a reward factor equal to as how as this game allows it. Give that move to a mediocre mid-tier characters with an even remotely decent dthrow or uthrow and he will become at least high tier just through that. Because the move is literally what being "broken" is all about.

I remember watching one of Zero's videos from a while back - he seems to genuinely enjoy Shulk's playstyle. I think Zero's Shulk will be really cool to see.

I mean I sure hope he actually goes deep with that Shulk because I think the character has incredible potential. It just seems to be so much hard work to get to the point where you can unleash that potential. That will take a lot of time and may not be the ideal character for a player who is mainly oriented to win as many tournaments as he can.

 

[HeroMystic]

To be fair Diddy's uair is legitimately a broken move. Like, not "broken" in the way that a lot of smashers like to randomly throw out that word for everything that's powerful but actually broken. Look at the risk / reward ratio. How big is the risk of a move that has 3 frames start-up lag, auto-cancels and has a rather big hitbox that doesn't only hit on top of it but also covers Diddy's entire front? It's virtually non-existent. How big is the reward of a move that combos into itself and other moves at low percent, starts killing at moderately high percent and is entirely safe on block? The reward is massive. So you have a move with risk ratio equal to zero and a reward factor equal to as how as this game allows it. Give that move to a mediocre mid-tier characters with an even remotely decent dthrow or uthrow and he will become at least high tier just through that. Because the move is literally what being "broken" is all about.

While I agree U-air is extremely powerful, I would like to state that's not the only thing that makes Diddy so strong. Right next to U-air is F-air, which is an extreme spacing tool that also works as a solid follow-up if U-air is unable to be reached. F-air invalidates a lot of options and is the main reason why Rosalina has such a horrid MU experience against Diddy (seriously, Rosalina literally has to crouch to avoid F-air. Doing anything else gets punished).

Honorable mentions are his grabs doing high damage and kill set-ups, the banana, D-tilt, and F-Smash. U-air can be considered broken but I doubt Diddy would be as good as he is without the rest of his moveset being headshakingly insane.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not a bad idea False is not only a outstanding player but I think he's currently 1-2+ months ahead of the curve of Sheik current meta. If you watch his matches and Mr. R it's pretty obvious they know the percents when fair into BF will work as out of the entire stream tournament out of the two of them they only missed once. Although I didn't watch doubles. You can also tell they would purposely place themselves for the option of aerial needles into BF. Mr. R also used weak nair into BF on multiple occasions and even got some kills with it. These were just some of the things I noticed, there's possibly a ton of goodies hidden within their playstyles just waiting to be mimic.

: 3 They still got nothing on @RyokoYaksa though who at one point in Brawl meta was a year ahead of everyone. ~sighs~ Such a great mind.

Yeah, David was a very strong player. We sparred alot in early days of Brawl. Though the most fun I ever had with him was a long sparring session in Soul Caliber 2 at a tourney Chibo was running years ago. Fun times.

 

[Flux0r]

To be fair Diddy's uair is legitimately a broken move.

Smash 4 isn't the only game to have a character that possess a "broken" move.
(Sheik's D-throw in Melee, Snake's u-tilt in Brawl and so on...)

I'm sure the metagame will make it seem less threatening in the future or a balance patch will tone it down.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm definitely waiting to get more videos before any conclusion. Top 8 was fascinating and all but it's still only 8 players.
Knowing more results, watching more videos, analyzing more mathchups. Yeah, that will be great.


btw, one thing I noticed Smashville's platform was a problem for Nietono, who spend a lot of time avoiding it and didn't know what to do when he got stuck there.

 

[Terotrous]

btw, one thing I noticed Smashville's platform was a problem for Nietono, who spend a lot of time avoiding it and didn't know what to do when he got stuck there.

Aren't a lot of Japanese tournaments FD only?

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

Aren't a lot of Japanese tournaments FD only?

I remember them in Brawl days being FD, BF, and Smashville only for Japan, from watching years of Japanese sets. I don't see why it would change, unless a craze or certain view with omega stages has something to do with it.

 

[HeroMystic]

@ ~ Gheb ~ probably knows more, but on stream they said Japan prefers FD/Omegas and Battlefield.

 

[Dooms]

Yeah, some regions are omega only, while others are FD/SV/BF

 

[David Viran]

Man I wish leon went to apex so I could see how he compares with other players.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tokyo area has Omega only, Osaka area has Omega/SV/BF.

 

[Terotrous]

Tokyo area has Omega only, Osaka area has Omega/SV/BF.

Meanwhile on the Japanese equivalent of Smashboards:

"Apex 2015 was pure shenanigans! Delfino Plaza? Halberd? Those Americans are always randoming us out with their jank stages!"


I wonder if there's a region that is the opposite direction from us, where they have horrible stages like Orbital Gate Assault and 75m legal and look down on us for not allowing them. Besides Gamefaqs, I mean.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I wonder if there's a region that is the opposite direction from us, where they have horrible stages like Orbital Gate Assault and 75m legal and look down on us for not allowing them. Besides Gamefaqs, I mean.

I do that in my region c:
... if that counts for anything that is....

 

[Luigisama]

Oh raptor actually went? It'd be nice if he like
told us yoshi mains lol

People have just been ragging on apex since the no PM thing anyways, and with the most recent news with staff taking seats from people during top 8 melee I believe, the APEX/staff itself just looking more and more trash by the week.

I think its only a select few. Like people like Rapture, Dul0r, Sky, Tkbreezy, and others were cool, but apparently some apex staff were being annoying.

 

[NairWizard]

lmao are you seriously comparing Zero's Falcon to his Diddy, a character he invests 6+ hours a day into?

That has to be legitimately the most ridiculous thing I've seen come from this thread, and that's a #boldstatement. No offense intended.

What we are experiencing is Post-Traumatic Meta Knight Disorder: everyone remembers the harsh and bitter disappointment from years of arguing that Meta Knight "could be beaten" and being proven wrong time and time again, and that harsh and bitter disappointment now causes us to tunnel vision--the moment that a character seems too good in the hands of the top player, half a dozen people cry OP.

Happened prepatch with ZSS at first after Zero won the invitational, then Rosalina when Dabuz was arguably the best player. Postpatch, it was Sheik and Diddy for a while (Shaya I recall saying that Sheik's frame data couldn't be beaten because her f-air had to be powershielded). Then Zero went exclusively Diddy, and now people are saying Diddy is far and away the best in the game, needs to be nerfed, about 15-20% better than everyone, blah blah blah.

Just relax. Diddy has way more even-looking matchups than any prior perceived #1.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik is still the best overall imo.

Just wanna go on record.

And she was def the best on 3DS. She actually got some serious nerfs, so that should tell you how powerful she was on 3DS.