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Character Competitive Impressions

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ParanoidDrone

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A bit off topic, but PK Flash and Din's Fire are weird in that neither GP nor Pocket affects them. I didn't know about Impatien Mechakoopa; does it not count as a projectile at all?
It does count as a projectile and GPull does affect it, but it detonates so fast that Rosalina has to basically be frame perfect when picking it up and throwing it back, otherwise it literally blows up in her hand. (Even if she does pull it off, it blows up about two inches in front of Luma.) So for all intents and purposes she can't GPull it either, not to any positive effect.

PK Flash and Din's Fire are channeled projectiles, or so I've seen them called, and are completely under the user's control until they detonate, at which point a reflector can change ownership but that's it. I imagine the lack of a hitbox until detonation has something to do with their immunity to GPull and Pocket.
 
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Tristan_win

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...eh? Greninja has a lot of combo options. The problem is 1.0.4 made his combos worse; usmash is no longer combo filler with its increased end lag (to be fair, this was highly justified), and combos into uair/fair don't kill like they used to. He also has one of the few multihit aerials that had autolink angles removed from certain hits to make his uair spike more difficult, though with autolink spikes being weakened in the patch he also obtained a utilt>ff uair loop that true combos, but is absurdly precise.

I've felt since 1.0.4 hit that he'd probably still be in the upper end of the cast if he still had his old uair/fair and water shuriken. I still feel reverting those three nerfs is about all he'd need.
I guess I stand corrected. I do find it strange though if greninja has all these 'true combo's' then how come you don't seem them abusing them more often? Obviously though I'm out of my element here.
 

FullMoon

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You're trying to tell me that his specials aren't useless. I get that, and that's completely true. I didn't say that Greninja has the worst specials in the game. The word situational literally implies that they have uses in certain situations. But Top Tiers have specials that literally feel unfair in many situations.

Competitive fighters, and other competitive games like card games, aren't about being good enough or good, they're about being really dominant and having options that overwhelm your opponent. Greninja doesn't have those kinds of specials. Water Shuriken forces people to approach, yes... but that's about as useful as, say, Diddy's Peanut Popgun or Link's arrows. Not something you think of when you think of being dominated. When was the last time you got dominated by peanuts?

Needles are super dominant, on the other hand; not only do they force approaches, they can also lead to Bouncing Fish setups, can gimp, are practically invisible so rack up fast damage, and can be stored for infinite mindgames.

Similarly, Shadow Sneak can "catch people offguard," sure, but it's not in the same tier of effectiveness as forcibly dismantling someone's guard, like Monkey Flip does.

I may be underestimating Hydro Pump because it is worse than Quick Attack, so I won't comment on that.

I don't think I said anything that disagrees with this or you. "Character is not among the best, and has tools that don't match Top/High Tier tools" does not imply "character is bad/easy to play."

The potential is there, as it is with Peach, and Greninja is in fact hard to use. But it's worth noting that being hard to use isn't the only reason that Greninja has little representation: he's also legitimately worse than the top tier. More effort for less reward isn't often appealing. Good to keep a sense of scope.
All right, I'll admit I went a bit overboard there. I can see your point. Shurikens are not as spammable as Sheik's needles (but they're also good for gimping though, I've used them for that purpose a lot.) for sure. Shadow Sneak is best used for punishing since the back kick is very powerful and it can punish predicted rolls and spot dodges very well, as well as laggy moves. I've used it for gimping as well and it can work as a mix-up for Greninja's typical edgeguarding tools in Hydro Pump and b-air.

Greninja's specials may not be as effective as other specials, but they have a lot of versatility to them. Hydro Pump, Shadow Sneak and Water Shuriken can be used in multiple ways. Substitute is also unique in that while it's a very strong kill move, if you don't think you're gonna hit the opponent with it, you can still use it as a escape measure since it sends Greninja so far as to be unpunishable in a very significant way, unless you're Sonic I guess.

Greninja is just outside of top tier, he takes a lot of effort and I think his combo game and kill setups give him a good reward for how tricky he is to use. He's very versatile and has decent power behind him, but what flaws he has do hold him back significantly.

I think the only thing Greninja needs in order to reach top tier is less lag on shurikens, either than or some improvements to his frame data. As he is now though, he's definitely a solid character who can very easily overwhelm people if they underestimate him.
 

Alias

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Zero won every single match up. (the match ups were Bowser vs Zelda, Falcon vs ZSS, Fox vs Robin, and Sheik vs. Pit/Dark Pit.
he didn't win Bowser vs Zelda.

but i agree that Zero is masterful with practically every character.
i listened to his story about how he taught himself in one of his web plays, and the guy just deserves every praise he can get.
 

Mazdamaxsti

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Top tier characters (my opinion and in order):
:4diddy:
:rosalina:
:4sheik:
:4sonic:
:4falcon:
:4ness:

Sheik is the most overrated character right now, bouncing fish is super punishable and doesnt kill early at all, vanish is really slow and its sad if you get hit by it, grenade is basically useless, and f-air strings are escapable, same with her bread and butter.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Top tier characters (my opinion and in order):
:4diddy:
:rosalina:
:4sheik:
:4sonic:
:4falcon:
:4ness:

Sheik is the most overrated character right now, bouncing fish is super punishable and doesnt kill early at all, vanish is really slow and its sad if you get hit by it, grenade is basically useless, and f-air strings are escapable, same with her bread and butter.
Bwahahaaha

Sheik is certainly not overrated, and her buttons really are that good.

I suggest actually playing one that knows what they're doing. You're in for one helluva fight.

Smooth Criminal
 
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NairWizard

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Anyone who seriously doubts that Pikachu is Top Tier needs to play me in a bo5 set in person. Then see if you still hold that opinion.
 

Mazdamaxsti

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Bwahahaaha

Sheik is certainly not overrated, and her buttons really are that good.

I suggest actually playing one that knows what they're doing. You're in for one helluva fight.

Smooth Criminal
overrated as in not the best in the game, and I've fought many.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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Sure, @ NairWizard NairWizard

Money match? :4dedede:

Nah I think Pikachu is really freaking good. I just don't understand why nobody else outside of ESAM, Anther, and maybe like a couple of other randoms play the little rodent.

Smooth Criminal
 

~ Gheb ~

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I mean, I'm actually willing to buy Sheik being overrated considering how pretty much everybody has her at least as #2. Some people are even going as far as claiming that sh'e on par with Diddy Kong, which I find to be ridiculous. Even the almost undisputed calls at her being #2 seem to blow things out of proportion. She at least competes with Sonic for that spot.

:059:
 

Diddy Kong

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Sheik is great, but needs gimping to kill. She probably has the best projectile in the game with Needles however. They should be considered as the new lasers :falcomelee:. Grenades are situational, but can force a distance. Bouncing Fish is great for many things... Sheik is definitely #3 for me. Plus, she's probably Diddy's toughest matchup.
 

Unknownkid

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overrated as in not the best in the game, and I've fought many.
Well if you play Kirby against Shiek, then the matchup is 50:50 apparently. We discuss this in our Match up thread. Heck, T!mmy made a wonderful analysis on it.
 
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Big-Cat

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Sending Luma out isn't something you should do very often. You're risking losing her prematurely (which is bad for obvious reasons), you lose a more-or-less reliable way to break out of grabs, you lose a way to absorb hits and punish, you lose SHNAir for creating space, you lose AC aerial shenanigans for offensive rolls+shields (sort of gimmicky but still), and you lose the setup hits for FAir and UAir.
You make a very good argument.
 

Locke 06

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Does Sheik's grenade actually have any use though? I never see Sheik mains use it.
Grenades tank projectiles and explode quickly when they get hit. MM fsmash gets eaten and it's just as depressing as when a DH pigeon eats it... except more so because the grenade explodes and if you're too close, you'll get hit.

Situational, but it has uses in that sense.

The problem I think with the perception of Sheik is that many good/not great Sheiks don't space properly. Until you realize how safe on block almost every move is, you underestimate the character. (edit: I know I did. Until I played an extended set where I had to keep telling myself that ___ was safe on shield so that I wouldn't be tempted to try and punish)
 
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ZSaberLink

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Thanks, I'll see if I can find any of his/her games.

Anyway, I feel Link is really good in this game. Nobody seems to use characters like him though.
I find it sad that no one seems to really play Link. Izaw's Link money match against Falcon was great at showing a far more aggro Link. Izaw seems to main Sheik as well though (doesn't seem like he was at APEX though?)

Ooh, Kirin was at APEX. His projectile game can be fairly flawless. Just look in the Link boards and there's an amazing set with him and a ROB (the 1st match is amazing. The last 2 are fairly disappointing, esp since he dies b/c of the environment in the 3rd)... I'm also disappointed that apparently there were no Links. I kind of wonder who beat Kirin so that he got 3rd in his pool.

I really like Amsa. Taking a Greninja into the top 8 on Smash Wii U and taking a Yoshi to #6 in Melee is awesome. He's taking on lesser played characters (esp. with Yoshi) and making them shine =).
 
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JingleJangleJamil

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Top tier characters (my opinion and in order):
:4diddy:
:rosalina:
:4sheik:
:4sonic:
:4falcon:
:4ness:

Sheik is the most overrated character right now, bouncing fish is super punishable and doesnt kill early at all, vanish is really slow and its sad if you get hit by it, grenade is basically useless, and f-air strings are escapable, same with her bread and butter.
IMO Sonic should be higher then Rosaluma and I think Falcon should be replaced with Yoshi.

Ooh, Kirin was at APEX. Nice. Yeh he's pretty good, just look in the Link boards and there's an amazing set with him and a ROB (the 1st match is amazing. The last 2 are fairly disappointing, esp since he dies b/c of the environment in the 3rd)...

I really like Amsa. Taking a Greninja into the top 8 on Smash Wii U and taking a Yoshi to #6 in Melee is awesome. He's taking on lesser played characters (esp. with Yoshi) and making them shine =).
Now if only he used Marth in Smash 4.....
 
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Road Death Wheel

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Grenades tank projectiles and explode quickly when they get hit. MM fsmash gets eaten and it's just as depressing as when a DH pigeon eats it... except more so because the grenade explodes and if you're too close, you'll get hit.

Situational, but it has uses in that sense.

The problem I think with the perception of Sheik is that many good/not great Sheiks don't space properly. Until you realize how safe on block almost every move is, you underestimate the character. (edit: I know I did. Until I played an extended set where I had to keep telling myself that ___ was safe on shield so that I wouldn't be tempted to try and punish)
i know that feeling i always went for a shield grab just 2 get stuffed by an f tilt.not anymore thankfully.
 

Locke 06

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i know that feeling i always went for a shield grab just 2 get stuffed by an f tilt.not anymore thankfully.
The best is when you play dumb and act like you don't know and you let them fsmash you once. And then you shield drop>shield to bluff a shield grab, they fsmash you, and then punish hard. :D #mindgames

I think Diddy, now, is the stronger character, but Sheik has more room to develop into a better character. Diddy will always be good, but people talk about Zero's "optimal Diddy" and if that's the end of Diddy's development for Smash 4, he'll only fall.
 

etecoon

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The problem I think with the perception of Sheik is that many good/not great Sheiks don't space properly. Until you realize how safe on block almost every move is, you underestimate the character.
Yeah I know when people talk about Sheik not being on Diddy's level and having weaknesses "she gets shield grabbed" tends to come up a lot
 
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NairWizard

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Most of the arguments against Sheik being #1 come from misconceptions, such as low kill power (she has tons of setups).
 
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Conda

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I found it strange that Dabuz didn't send Luma out that much to control space.
The thing about Rosalina is that you can stand still and camp, because by having Luma attached you can punish a ton of approaches. M2K didn't want to approach Rosa that often, because often a Jab would come out, a post-throw attack would punish him, or Dabuz would've used his massive double disjoints to smack Diddy away and double-jump + airdodge to safety. He did this in his set against Abadango and M2K faced him right after. M2K realised what a 'positive state' Rosalina is in when in neutral and not fighting. In her neutral state she has a ton of protection and can deny a lot of approaches. This is what makes her a campy character. You don't need to use projectiles to be campy, in the case of Rosalina.

If your opponent uses projectiles to approach, Rosalina is in a positive state. If your opponent's approach game depends on a grab, Rosalina is in a positive state. If their approach depends on an attack with low range, Rosalina is in a positive state. If they cannot punish landings, are slow, or have poor aerial mobility - then Rosalina is in a positive state due to double jumping and airdodging.

Dabuz utilized standing still and spamming Grav Pull MANY times in the tournament, especially on stages with obstacles such as delfino. I've been watching the VOD and Dabuz often literally stands and spams grav pull for 5 or more seconds while standing still in a safe spot. That's how she works, and it's fine if people find it non-spectator-friendly or boring. But that doesn't mean it's not valid.

You can root against Dabuz if you like, but he's playing Rosa the way she's designed to be played - punishing swathes of options and being safe almost always. More people should be playing her.
 
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Antonykun

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I remember @Kofu saying this but I agree, Villager is really bad at long range camping. in this range there are 4 moves she can use: Slingshot, Lloyd, Wood Plank, and whatever you get from Pocket. At long range you are dealing 2-3 damage from Slingshot 7 from Lloyd but Lloyd should not be dealing damage. I have no idea how much the wood plank does but I'm sure its better at mid range and you only get one shot with the Timber ammo.
Slingshot + Lloyd is super easy to break unless there is something I'm missing in my Lloyd play and you're not getting much damage
If anything, Villager is more an aggressive trap character, using Lloyd and Slingshots to pin the opponent down to hit them with your more powerful attacks like Turnips and Nair.
 

HeavyLobster

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The best is when you play dumb and act like you don't know and you let them fsmash you once. And then you shield drop>shield to bluff a shield grab, they fsmash you, and then punish hard. :D #mindgames

I think Diddy, now, is the stronger character, but Sheik has more room to develop into a better character. Diddy will always be good, but people talk about Zero's "optimal Diddy" and if that's the end of Diddy's development for Smash 4, he'll only fall.
I don't think Zero's Diddy is quite optimal yet. Diddy has many options beyond grabs and even beyond what Zero's shown so far. Bananas aren't what they were in Brawl, but they're still formidable and versatile, and I think we'll see more banana setups as the meta develops. Diddy has so many tools to work with that are overshadowed by the HOO-HAHs, and what Zero has done to separate himself from the other Diddys has been to dig deeper and make better use of his entire moveset, but there's still more there to work with. The one issue I've seen Diddy have has been him staling his Uairs and Fairs and not killing as early as he could, and I believe Diddy has some other valuable tools he can use to help keep them semi-fresh. Diddy is just really good at everything where everyone else has some kind of weakness, be it great or small.
 

Road Death Wheel

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I don't think Zero's Diddy is quite optimal yet. Diddy has many options beyond grabs and even beyond what Zero's shown so far. Bananas aren't what they were in Brawl, but they're still formidable and versatile, and I think we'll see more banana setups as the meta develops. Diddy has so many tools to work with that are overshadowed by the HOO-HAHs, and what Zero has done to separate himself from the other Diddys has been to dig deeper and make better use of his entire moveset, but there's still more there to work with. The one issue I've seen Diddy have has been him staling his Uairs and Fairs and not killing as early as he could, and I believe Diddy has some other valuable tools he can use to help keep them semi-fresh. Diddy is just really good at everything where everyone else has some kind of weakness, be it great or small.
i still don't think diddy is good at recvering low but thats just me.
 

HeavyLobster

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i still don't think diddy is good at recvering low but thats just me.
Ok you've got me there. I do think that problem is less severe than those of other characters, even Sheik, who can kill but does still have problems if you can avoid her kill setups and gimps.
 

Luigisama

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i still don't think diddy is good at recvering low but thats just me.
True, Kirin vs player 1 Kirin missed a punish on Diddy where he could have fireballed the barrels, but didn't. Had he done it maybe he would have beat player 1 and advanced to wave 2 in apex.

On a side note. Luigi vs Greninja. Discuss did the nerf really hurt Greninja?

Yeah Luigi can rush people down, but Amsa apparently destroyed Boss and Jmiller's luigis. I saw this coming since sheik is a difficult mu for Luigi, but her needles do little damage. Now greninja's shuriken is stronger than sheik and beats luigi's fireball preventing fireball to grab, is somewhat fast like sheik, and has an up b that obliterates Luigi's options to recover. I wish I saw the whole match, but I only caught the end where Amsa was shooting shurikens at a planking Jmiller luigi a futile attempt since ledge inviciblity is gone.
 
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NairWizard

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Given the characters around here I wouldn't say low KO power isn't a valid weakness.
I said that it's a misconception that Sheik has low KO power, not that low KO power isn't a weakness. If you actually have low KO power, then yes, that's bad.

Sheik doesn't have an f-smash that she can rely on to insta-blick you, but she has KO setups, and that's the important part. Ledge trump or frame trap into b-air, Bouncing Fish from Needles or f-throw, offstage unstaled f-air (because she forces many characters to recover a certain way to avoid the Bouncing Fish), and Vanish reads that she can get off of a million different moves... Sheik has no problem landing a KO move on you.

Maybe she kills at 150 rather than 100, but she does tons of damage with safe strings like f-air -> f-air > f-tilt, and as mentioned it's difficult to shieldgrab most of Sheik's attacks, so 150 is to Sheik what 100 is to almost anyone else.

It looks like Sheik is doing more work to get her KOs than say Sonic, but she isn't at all. Visuals can be deceiving. Diddy and Ness definitely have one up on her in KO power, but they are also correspondingly worse in other areas, like recovery.
 
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FullMoon

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True, Kirin vs player 1 Kirin missed a punish on Diddy where he could have fireballed the barrels, but didn't. Had he done it maybe he would have beat player 1 and advanced to wave 2 in apex.

On a side note. Luigi vs Greninja. Discuss did the nerf really hurt Greninja?

Yeah Luigi can rush people down, but Amsa apparently destroyed Boss and Jmiller's luigis. I saw this coming since sheik is a difficult mu for Luigi, but her needles do little damage. Now greninja's shuriken is stronger than sheik and beats luigi's fireball preventing fireball to grab, is somewhat fast like sheik, and has an up b that obliterates Luigi's options to recover. I wish I saw the whole match, but I only caught the end where Amsa was shooting shurikens at a planking Jmiller luigi a futile attempt since ledge inviciblity is gone.
Well, think of it this way, if Greninja wasn't nerfed then aMSa would've destroyed them even more badly.

Greninja's nerfs hurt his viability, but that just means he went from Top Tier to just barely out of it. I think Greninja can be in the Top 15, Top 20 at worst.

So, yes, the nerfs hurt him a lot, but people treating it as if Greninja was nerfed to Brawl Ganondorf tier probably made them sound worse than they actually are.

Luigi just has a bad MU against Greninja, I guess.
 
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Yokoblue

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Given the characters around here I wouldn't say low KO power isn't a valid weakness.

Who kills worse than her?
I think Pikachu as a similar low kill power.
Yes you can have a bunch of setups and gimps but nothing is guaranteed. Up throw to thunder is DIable and kill around same % than Bouncing fish, pummel to fsmash is shieldable, up smash kill at same percent than sheik up smash and is similar...

I think Pikachu kill setups are harder to dodge but I think they are quite similar in power
 
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