Character Competitive Impressions

[thehard]

I don't know how to feel.

...I'm going to bed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

EDIT: Ignore this, computer went dumb

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Some characters can restart jab pretty quick, others cannot. With most characters, when you try to do jab1 over and over again, it just continues the string. They'd have to change Link's jab to work like that if you hit Jab again, rather than let you restart the jab quickly.

or theycan add the effect of links jab slow pushing u out of the swords range. allowing for at least 2 jabs then a down smash but definitly no infinites. but that would indeed require changing the jabs design.

 

[FullMoon]

Considering it only starts working on Sheik at 100%, I think this jab infinite isn't going to be very useful against characters like Fox and Greninja who fall even faster than her.

It doesn't look inescapable to me but I guess we'll have to see.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Terrible throws and grabs is the same story for Yoshi.
For the guy that listed Yoshi stuff I wanna say doing DA on shield is not safe at all, it's about as safe as Yoshi using bair on shield lol

 

[etecoon]

I think Link is quite good in Smash 4. Also I'd use 'cheese' instead of 'jank' as far as some of the top tiers' kits go

He's better than Brawl Link but I'd still say very middle of the pack, not up to date with 64 at all but I believe that he's never been very good going all the way back to the beginning. If they mess up his other jab cancels to fix this that will definitely be a huge kick in the teeth for Link players

Glad you didnt put Sheik in there.

She is legit.

Legitimately jankalicious

My favoritism is shameless, of course I didn't put Sheik in there

 

[David Viran]

- ZSS is pretty popular right now, but I don't fully believe she's in the top 5. Don't know if it's just me, but she feels a little janky. She has quite the laggy grab and is rather reliant on her Up-B to kill which is rather laggy. I think we only see a lot of this character because she's very popular and looks good on paper. Don't get me wrong, ZSS is solid, but putting her at like #3 is just wrong IMO. This is a character we didn't see in any of the top 16 at Apex and I'm not surprised.[/spoiler]

What do you mean by popular do you mean played alot because i don't think she is to popular in that regard. I would say she looks worse on paper because of some crouching shanagens. Zss is only reliant on up b to kill really early but bair is really the kill move she can kill with without a set up. She also has very good MU's right now besides pikachu and diddy but they are probably like 6 4 imo. Yeah she seems janky because she doesn't play conventionally.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Terrible throws and grabs is the same story for Yoshi.
For the guy that listed Yoshi stuff I wanna say doing DA on shield is not safe at all, it's about as safe as Yoshi using bair on shield lol

Yoshi and Link have good grabs tbh. Nerfs to spotdodge make it a lot easier for them to get past defenses in this game. Yoshi however unlike Link has a good negative state, and his positive state in situations outside of throws is overall better than Link's due to his mobility.

Given Yoshi overall can capitalize significantly in more situations than Link, I would argue that Link's terrible grab game is a more glaring flaw.

 

[Chaleb]

What do you mean by popular do you mean played alot because i don't think she is to popular in that regard. I would say she looks worse on paper because of some crouching shanagens. Zss is only reliant on up b to kill really early but bair is really the kill move she can kill with without a set up. She also has very good MU's right now besides pikachu and diddy but they are probably like 6 4 imo. Yeah she seems janky because she doesn't play conventionally.

Well she's popular for a character that's not Diddy or Shiek lol. Again, I think she's solid but some people think she's right under Diddy and Sheik which I can't agree with; top 10 seems more likely?

And she has to have more bad match-ups then that, I know I can personally (as a Pit main) say that I think that Pit:ZSS has to be at least 6:4 in our favor.

Also I'm gonna repost my general thoughts on the meta since I feel like not a lot of people saw it:

Spoiler

We all know that Diddy and Sheik are the best, but the real question is what characters come after that. These are a bit of my thoughts.
-I think Dabuz has shown us that this character is REALLY good in any non-Diddy match-up. Can throw out really strong and disjointed hitboxes with Luma which mask her light weight.
-This character has a lot of potential, I think he can possibly be right where Diddy and Shiek are now but I'm not quite convinced yet. A good projectile, grab combos, insane recovery, good kill power, and Quick Attack shenanigans are a few of the reasons why. I expect to see this character come out more soon.
-Really solid overall. Would be quite mediocre but the creators blessed Sonic with a very good and (almost) risk-free Spin Dash, and kill throws to boot. Sonic has the speed to punish things that other characters can't, and can also afford to pressure people with mindgames for little cost. Quite a few people (hi 6WX) have shown that Sonic is able to stand up to Diddy and Sheik.
- ZSS is pretty popular right now, but I don't fully believe she's in the top 5. Don't know if it's just me, but she feels a little janky. She has quite the laggy grab and is rather reliant on her Up-B to kill which is rather laggy. I think we only see a lot of this character because she's very popular and looks good on paper. Don't get me wrong, ZSS is solid, but putting her at like #3 is just wrong IMO. This is a character we didn't see in any of the top 16 at Apex and I'm not surprised.
- Yoshi has a lot of tricks and really has very few flaws. He has a great aerial game and can throw out very strong Neutral airs in a few frames. His dash attack is safe on shield, while his neutral-B can catch people off guard with it's B-reversal. Not to mention Egg camping and his double jump superarmor eating through attacks. Definitely up there.

Characters being SLEPT on:
- People need to use this guy. While he's quite a bit different than Brawl, he's actually gotten quite a few nice buffs and retained most of his strengths. Notably, he has a command grab that can be used in the air and B-reversed for mindgames, the Bike which can safely poke opponents, KO, rack-up damage and eat attacks, and the infamous Wario Waft. Waft is especially dangerous this time around because we're playing a two-stock game, and as a result Wario can use the Waft's insane KO power, superarmor, and range to clutch out stocks. Sadly not a lot of attention put on Wario which is why he's being slept on hard.
-Another character being slept on because few people have played a Kid Icarus game, and his strengths aren't as noticeable as Diddy or Shiek's. This character has a LOT of potential, and the only person I've seen kinda delve into him is Nairo. I've heard from Nairo that he thinks the Pit-Shiek match-up is in Pit's favor, and I've also heard Zero say that he thinks Pit has a solid match-up against Diddy. There's a few reasons for this; for one, Pit has a sword (sorta) which eats through characters who use their arms to attack. Another is his insane reach with Arrows, his very fast and powerful (12%) Dash Attack, solid combos (Donw Throw to Upsmash or Up Air) out of grab, underrated kill power with Forward Throw (kills near the ledge in the early 100's) and Side-B (kills off the top VERY early, and also has super armor and can tech chase), multiple jumps (making for a really good edgegaurding game) and a great recovery. I might be biased but I truly think Pit has the potential to be right outside of the Top 5 best characters. (And btw, is worse than regular Pit in every way)

Thoughts on other popular characters
- Mario and Fox have been getting quite a bit of representation (mostly Mario, Fox could use more), mostly because of their simple but effective playstyle. Has a lot of combos and mobility. Ness plays quite a bit differently but has seen some usage due to getting buffed quite a bit from Brawl. Ness has a significant flaw in his recovery, and in general if feels like he has a hard time approaching, though he has a lot of other strengths to compensate. Not much to say, these are characters I feel that Pit/ZSS/Wario should be right next to in viability.
- Greninja looks quite mediocre to me but aMSa made me take another look at him. Seems like another character being slept on atm, though I don't think he's where like, Mario is. I could be proven wrong though.
- Villager is hard to talk about, because he feels like a character you use to counter other specific match-ups, and not as a main.
-I feel like Pac-Man is right under the higher tiers. Obviously has glaring flaws with his grab and approach options, but Abadango and others have shown that Pac-Man has a gigantic number of unique abilities. Also, a very good recovery and aerial game.
- I've heard these characters have been getting slept on, but I know too little about them to comment. Don't think they're high tier material though (we'll see).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Considering it only starts working on Sheik at 100%, I think this jab infinite isn't going to be very useful against characters like Fox and Greninja who fall even faster than her.

It doesn't look inescapable to me but I guess we'll have to see.

i thought he said it works even better on fast fallers?

 

[David Viran]

And she has to have more bad match-ups then that, I know I can personally (as a Pit main) say that I think that Pit:ZSS has to be at least 6:4 in our favor.

Your gonna have to explain why you think that.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi and Link have good grabs tbh. Nerfs to spotdodge make it a lot easier for them to get past defenses in this game. Yoshi however unlike Link has a good negative state, and his positive state in situations outside of throws is overall better than Link's due to his mobility.

Given Yoshi overall can capitalize significantly in more situations than Link, I would argue that Link's terrible grab game is a more glaring flaw.

Any long range grab is good, but if you miss.
Dear god do you miss.

Not sure on Link's standing grab frames, but I'm very sure Yoshi has a lot more time to get punished if he whiffs dash grab or pivot grab, especially pivot grab.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Your gonna have to explain why you think that.

i dunno if its 6:4 but when pits good against a character its for the same reason hes good against any character. he just does everything decently well. where as character with alot of strenght and some clear weaknesses. pit has the abillity on hand 2 still be able 2 capitalize on said weakness.

 

[HeroMystic]

A bit late, but Link's jab will not get patched out, especially since it's dependent on percent and positioning. That video also didn't factor in DI at all.

 

[David Viran]

i dunno if its 6:4 but when pits good against a character its for the same reason hes good against any character. he just does everything decently well. where as character with alot of strenght and some clear weaknesses. pit has the abillity on hand 2 still be able 2 capitalize on said weakness.

Well zss's biggest weakness is her grab and he doesn't really do any better at taking advantage of it as alot other charcter really.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A bit late, but Link's jab will not get patched out, especially since it's dependent on percent and positioning. That video also didn't factor in DI at all.

I mentioned it, saying they can't.

Not as sure how legit that is though given the many factors for this that could work on it.

 

[deepseadiva]

I wanted to lay this out for myself cuz yall were rude and never did.

1. ZeRo
2. XFIRE Dabuz
3. LLL Mr. R
4. 6WX
5. DtN | Nietono
5. MVG | Mew2King
7. Abadango
7. CT | MVD
9. AeroLink
9. LoF NAKAT
9. Nairo
9. VGBC | aMSa
13. Boreal_Ally
13. DA Jtails
13. FALSE
13. NinjaLink

I like this game!!! Wow at MVD and Abadango. I suppose you could be worried about the Diddy Kongs sprinkled in there, but I see several players and character between each of them. What do we think of Olimar in 2nd place...? Such a strange secondary. Good spread overall and a hopeful indication of this game's balance. I'm very happy with it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well zss's biggest weakness is her grab and he doesn't really do any better at taking advantage of it as alot other charcter really.

no what i consider zzs biggest weakness is that all her grounded normal other than jab are extreamly punishable. and laggy as crap.

 

[David Viran]

no what i consider zzs biggest weakness is that all her grounded normal other than jab are extreamly punishable. and laggy as crap.

Dsmash, ftilt, and even dtilt work well enough. Paralyzer works to you just got to know how and when to use it. Can pit even keep zss out of the air anyway.

Also @ C Chaleb if you count nairo zss did make it top 16 but nairo never used her on stream.

 

[Sinister Slush]

What do we think of Olimar in 2nd place...? Such a strange secondary. Good spread overall and a hopeful indication of this game's balance. I'm very happy with it.

It's not strange since dabuz mained olimar in brawl and he busted Olimar out against 6wx I think a month back, so he's been keeping his olimar up to par.
APEX really isn't the best tournament to be used for much, especially best of 5 since semis but meh.

 

[Ffamran]

On infinite jabs, jab loops, or jab cancels, Falco might have one, but I've only seen it working on Ganondorf and nobody knows why it works. It could be poor/no DI, something stupid like Ganondorf's build, or whatever. Link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xtDXczotRQ.

 

[Makorel]

It's easy to think that lots of moves are more punishable when you're Pit because you've got the range of a heavy without the body vulnerability and good speed too. Even when they push you back in shield you can just run forward and get that dash attack when others might not have enough reach. For ZSS vs Pit specifically the only move that doesn't seem punishable is ZSS's d-smash because of how little end lag there is, but if I recall there's a bit of start up to it and you can also roll behind and jab since it doesn't cover both sides.

 

[David Viran]

It's easy to think that lots of moves are more punishable when you're Pit because you've got the range of a heavy without the body vulnerability and good speed too. Even when they push you back in shield you can just run forward and get that dash attack when others might not have enough reach. For ZSS vs Pit specifically the only move that doesn't seem punishable is ZSS's d-smash because of how little end lag there is, but if I recall there's a bit of start up to it and you can also roll behind and jab since it doesn't cover both sides.

I can garantee you you should not be able to block a well spaced ftilt from zss with pit and be able to drop sheild and dash attack before the zss could do something. if you try to roll against zss dsmash you are just risking getting to get hit by it because of the vulnerable frames on start up unless you were right in front of her and read it.

 

[Shammonx]

That's crazy, ROB, PACman and Alph are my three top picks, and two of them had reps show up. Thanks for posting the list.

 

[incrediblej]

My friend showed me on eventhubs.com a tier list for anyone who wants to see one about half would seem accurate to you folks on these here smash boards I'm a decent player but link is good if you know how to space his atks well and Rosaluma is good but needs mastering, same with shiek, zss needs some practice and spacing with some of her moves olimar doesn't have as good hitbox's as in brawl but I'm glad someone at apex won with him, pac-man is fun but competitively I find him hard to kill with and I find that the last couple battles were a bit boring with the stallinh but the mirrors seemed good cause I got to see how people use everyone differently

 

[Makorel]

I can garantee you you should not be able to block a well spaced ftilt from zss against pit and the pit be able to drop sheild and dash attack before the zss could do something.

Actually I'm testing it out in practice mode and it's easier for Pit to use ftilt or fsmash to punish ZSS's ftilt on block. Comes out before ZSS's animation finishes.

if you try to roll against zss dsmash you are just risking getting to get hit by it because of the vulnerable frames on start up unless you were right in front of her and read it.

I see that gun come out and my first instinct is to reaction block, but it's also possible to reaction roll, dash or jump and retaliate in some fashion.

 

[David Viran]

I see that gun come out and my first instinct is to reaction block, but it's also possible to reaction roll, dash or jump and retaliate in some fashion.

It comes out on frame 20. Rolls have 4 frames of vulnerability on start up that means you have 16 frames to react. that is not long enough for even for the best reaction times to react to. I don't know what dashing would do exactly and dsmash might catch your jump and you got hit by it when you didn't have to.

 

[ZSaberLink]

I'm not sure how infinite the link jab is exactly. Maybe in better hands than mine it'd keep working infinitely, but a computer in training (lvl 8 to avoid insane reflexes) was able to get out at times.

It's funny that this is new though, since I thought it was pretty obvious you could probably do this for a while. However, it just is really boring and I assumed folks could DI out of it.

 

[Makorel]

It comes out on frame 20. Rolls have 4 frames of vulnerability on start up that means you have 16 frames to react. that is not long enough for even for the best reaction times to react to. I don't know what dashing would do exactly and dsmash might catch your jump and you got hit by it when you didn't have to.

It is entirely possible I am confusing predictions with reaction time. and to clarify dashing is just to get out of there and basically a reset to neutral now that I think about it so forget what I said about retaliating. and ZSS's down smash, like most down smashes, hits low to the ground so a short hop to down air was what I was going for with that.

 

[NairWizard]

It comes out on frame 20. Rolls have 4 frames of vulnerability on start up that means you have 16 frames to react. that is not long enough for even for the best reaction times to react to.

disregarding other numbers, 16 frames is above average human reaction time, which is probably about 13 frames. Top players have a reaction time of ~10 frames. That's easily reactable. Pit f-smash comes out on something like frame 6, so Ally could consistently f-smash you for this.

edit: apparently it's frame 10, so that won't work.

 

[David Viran]

It is entirely possible I am confusing predictions with reaction time. and to clarify dashing is just to get out of there and basically a reset to neutral now that I think about it so forget what I said about retaliating. and ZSS's down smash, like most down smashes, hits low to the ground so a short hop to down air was what I was going for with that.

Her dsmash hits high kind of and jumping does not take you off the ground in one frame.

disregarding other numbers, 16 frames is above average human reaction time, which is probably about 13 frames. Top players have a reaction time of ~10 frames. That's easily reactable. Pit f-smash comes out on something like frame 6, so Ally could consistently f-smash you for this.

isn't that if it is the only option and if there are multiple things she could do it reaction time would be higher.

 

[NairWizard]

Her dsmash hits high kind of and jumping does not take you off the ground in one frame.
isn't that if it is the only option and if there are multiple things she could do it reaction time would be higher.

If you're shielding, the only things you are really prepared to react to are grab or attack. 10 reaction frames for that is reasonable for top players like ESAM, Ally, and Anti. Their reaction times are all unbelievably good.

 

[Makorel]

disregarding other numbers, 16 frames is above average human reaction time, which is probably about 13 frames. Top players have a reaction time of ~10 frames. That's easily reactable. Pit f-smash comes out on something like frame 6, so Ally could consistently f-smash you for this.

Pit's F smash is actually comes out at frame 10. Jab is at frame 5 though so it could still be punishable (also I think you meant Nairo?)

Her dsmash hits high kind of and jumping does not take you off the ground in one frame.
isn't that if it is the only option and if there are multiple things she could do it reaction time would be higher.

Short enough to jump over. And I guess I didn't think about the delay before jumping since it comes out "quick enough" during a match.

Also spot dodging seems to work well enough to counter ZSS's down smash. If you have time to shield you have time to spot dodge right?

 

[David Viran]

If you're shielding, the only things you are really prepared to react to are grab or attack. 10 reaction frames for that is reasonable for top players like ESAM, Ally, and Anti. Their reaction times are all unbelievably good.

I was thinking that they weren't already in sheild. Wouldn't there also be a third optionas in dash either towards or away from them.

 

[Ffamran]

Yo! As I was looking for Falco videos and blindly linking them for the Falco boards to watch and learn, I found this of a Japanese Fox/Dark Pit and Falco/ZSS player. Early in the match, the Fox uses perfect pivot! Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHqvF6j1dmY.

This is a first since 6wX did it in one of his matches. Also, Japanese players really have a different feel. Their play style reminds me of Street Fighter.

Edit: I don't know much about perfect pivot, unfortunately, but it's there for anyone to discuss.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Many people do perfect pivot, You'd see excessive use of it by amsa's greninja in any video from him as an example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhUnn_9KDuA

 

[NairWizard]

Pit's F smash is actually comes out at frame 10. Jab is at frame 5 though so it could still be punishable (also I think you meant Nairo?)

My mistake. Don't know why I was thinking frame 6.

And no, I meant Ally, because his reaction time is pretty much the best there is (I'd say along with ESAM and Anti).

 

[Lavani]

Pit's usmash is frame 6, might be where you were getting the number from.

For the sake of rounding off the list, dsmash's front hit is frame 5.

 

[Ffamran]

Many people do perfect pivot, You'd see excessive use of it by amsa's greninja in any video from him as an example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhUnn_9KDuA

Okay, that Hydro Pump usage was freaking amazing. WHY HAVE I NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE?! I was even thinking the other day about using Hydro Pump like Fox Illusion and Falco Phantasm to close the distance, but holy crap, this is awesome. So, travel, recovery, gimping, and damage. Talk about an awesome move in the right hands.

 

[Makorel]

I was thinking that they were already in sheild. Wouldn't there also be a third optionas in dash either towards or away from them.

My mistake. Don't know why I was thinking frame 6.

And no, I meant Ally, because his reaction time is pretty much the best there is (I'd say along with ESAM and Anti).

Ok so if you're Pit, and ZSS down smashes, and you realize that in 10 frames because you're Ally, if you're in shield you can roll behind ZSS with 6 frames between your vulnerable period and the time when the hurtbox comes out. If you're out of shield you could dash back to reset to neutral (and maybe fire an arrow off I don't know the exact frames for that) or run forward and dash grab (6 frames), dash attack (7 frames) or as @ Lavani just pointed out dsmash (5 frames), which is long enough to reach without moving if you're not on the edge of ZSS's down smash. Or you could YOLO through with Upperdash's super armor.

Edit: Normal grab comes out at 6 frames. Dash grab comes out at 8. Pivot grab comes out at 9 and is probably better though since to get the pivot grab you would need to move out of the danger zone anyway.