Character Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

Given the characters around here I wouldn't say low KO power isn't a valid weakness.

Who kills worse than her?

Pikachu?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I said that it's a misconception that Sheik has low KO power, not that low KO power isn't a weakness. If you actually have low KO power, then yes, that's bad.

Sheik doesn't have an f-smash that she can rely on to insta-blick you, but she has KO setups, and that's the important part. Ledge trump or frame trap into b-air, Bouncing Fish from Needles or f-throw, offstage unstaled f-air (because she forces many characters to recover a certain way to avoid the Bouncing Fish), and Vanish reads that she can get off of a million different moves... Sheik has no problem landing a KO move on you.

Maybe she kills at 150 rather than 100, but she does tons of damage with safe strings like f-air -> f-air > f-tilt, and as mentioned it's difficult to shieldgrab most of Sheik's attacks, so 150 is to Sheik what 100 is to almost anyone else.

It looks like Sheik is doing more work to get her KOs than say Sonic, but she isn't at all. Visuals can be deceiving. Diddy and Ness definitely have one up on her in KO power, but they are also correspondingly worse in other areas, like recovery.

Fundamentaly this makes sense and i definitly would not consider shiek low on kill power. But i would argue that shiek sindrome is a very real thing. And just sometimes when the opponent know what 2 look for it can make killing with shiek a real pain and drag stocks up 2 190% vefore a kill occures with a f air. iv seen this alomst all apex. not 2 belittle he kill traps though since the definitly put that weight away. But it would be nice if she had some less situational and more convential set ups into her kill moves that rely less on ur opponents DI. (in no way am i acutally asking for this though im just stating from a character persepective she would like this.)

@ Nu~ pit unlike shiek has a decent kill throw and great pumble 2 rack up damage before a throw. and has smash attacks that can actually kill reasonably. though it does suck that pit has no air options to seal a stock out side of gimping. if only he had robins u air.

 

[David Viran]

I said that it's a misconception that Sheik has low KO power, not that low KO power isn't a weakness. If you actually have low KO power, then yes, that's bad.

Sheik doesn't have an f-smash that she can rely on to insta-blick you, but she has KO setups, and that's the important part. Ledge trump or frame trap into b-air, Bouncing Fish from Needles or f-throw, offstage unstaled f-air (because she forces many characters to recover a certain way to avoid the Bouncing Fish), and Vanish reads that she can get off of a million different moves... Sheik has no problem landing a KO move on you.

Maybe she kills at 150 rather than 100, but she does tons of damage with safe strings like f-air -> f-air > f-tilt, and as mentioned it's difficult to shieldgrab most of Sheik's attacks, so 150 is to Sheik what 100 is to almost anyone else.

It looks like Sheik is doing more work to get her KOs than say Sonic, but she isn't at all. Visuals can be deceiving. Diddy and Ness definitely have one up on her in KO power, but they are also correspondingly worse in other areas, like recovery.

I tend to notice this about staling and sheik players. Sheik players use kill moves to rack up damage when at lower percents. This, in turn, makes it that much more difficult to get the kill as their kill moves are always staled.

 

[Nu~]

I said that it's a misconception that Sheik has low KO power, not that low KO power isn't a weakness. If you actually have low KO power, then yes, that's bad.

Sheik doesn't have an f-smash that she can rely on to insta-blick you, but she has KO setups, and that's the important part. Ledge trump or frame trap into b-air, Bouncing Fish from Needles or f-throw, offstage unstaled f-air (because she forces many characters to recover a certain way to avoid the Bouncing Fish), and Vanish reads that she can get off of a million different moves... Sheik has no problem landing a KO move on you.

Maybe she kills at 150 rather than 100, but she does tons of damage with safe strings like f-air -> f-air > f-tilt, and as mentioned it's difficult to shieldgrab most of Sheik's attacks, so 150 is to Sheik what 100 is to almost anyone else.

It looks like Sheik is doing more work to get her KOs than say Sonic, but she isn't at all. Visuals can be deceiving. Diddy and Ness definitely have one up on her in KO power, but they are also correspondingly worse in other areas, like recovery.

Yeah, but killing at percentages that late is extremely dangerous due to rage. This will get you massacred by any smart lucario (oh god...Lucario at 130% 0_o ) or heavy that can kill you in one hit with one good read.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yeah, but killing at percentages that late is extremely dangerous due to rage. This will get you massacred by any smart lucario (oh god...Lucario at 130% 0_o ) or heavy that can kill you in one hit with one good read.

untill customs show up im pretty sure shiek will not have 2 worry about heavys. not 2 say they don't have thereform af advantage of course. i personally feel shiek does not like heavys very much. like she still wins the mu but she just has to be so much more carefull durring late stocks.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

The thing about Rosalina is that you can stand still and camp, because by having Luma attached you can punish a ton of approaches. M2K didn't want to approach Rosa that often, because often a Jab would come out, a post-throw attack would punish him, or Dabuz would've used his massive double disjoints to smack Diddy away and double-jump + airdodge to safety. He did this in his set against Abadango and M2K faced him right after. M2K realised what a 'positive state' Rosalina is in when in neutral and not fighting. In her neutral state she has a ton of protection and can deny a lot of approaches. This is what makes her a campy character. You don't need to use projectiles to be campy, in the case of Rosalina.

If your opponent uses projectiles to approach, Rosalina is in a positive state. If your opponent's approach game depends on a grab, Rosalina is in a positive state. If their approach depends on an attack with low range, Rosalina is in a positive state. If they cannot punish landings, are slow, or have poor aerial mobility - then Rosalina is in a positive state due to double jumping and airdodging.

Dabuz utilized standing still and spamming Grav Pull MANY times in the tournament, especially on stages with obstacles such as delfino. I've been watching the VOD and Dabuz often literally stands and spams grav pull for 5 or more seconds while standing still in a safe spot. That's how she works, and it's fine if people find it non-spectator-friendly or boring. But that doesn't mean it's not valid.

You can root against Dabuz if you like, but he's playing Rosa the way she's designed to be played - punishing swathes of options and being safe almost always. More people should be playing her.

I agree with all of this but the more people should be playing her thing. lol

There are times I feel she just craps on some characters by existing. She's one of Sonic's worst matchups and it's entirely because of that strong neutral denial. I've been told some Rosalinas have problems with him and I am willing to bet that 9 out of 10 times it's because they send out Luma to "control the field" when they should be keeping Luma close.

 

[Project Quarantine]

I mean, I'm actually willing to buy Sheik being overrated considering how pretty much everybody has her at least as #2. Some people are even going as far as claiming that sh'e on par with Diddy Kong, which I find to be ridiculous. Even the almost undisputed calls at her being #2 seem to blow things out of proportion. She at least competes with Sonic for that spot.

Just to note, ZeRo thinks that sheik is the best character in the game (apex sm4sh 2015 winner), if that opinion is important.

 

[thehard]

So we have this now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWmtA1VCHWY

I don't know how viable it is in real games, but it's there. And if it gets patched out, Sakurai is literally killing Smash 4's competitive scene by removing advanced tech.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I said that it's a misconception that Sheik has low KO power, not that low KO power isn't a weakness. If you actually have low KO power, then yes, that's bad.

Sheik doesn't have an f-smash that she can rely on to insta-blick you, but she has KO setups, and that's the important part. Ledge trump or frame trap into b-air, Bouncing Fish from Needles or f-throw, offstage unstaled f-air (because she forces many characters to recover a certain way to avoid the Bouncing Fish), and Vanish reads that she can get off of a million different moves... Sheik has no problem landing a KO move on you.

Maybe she kills at 150 rather than 100, but she does tons of damage with safe strings like f-air -> f-air > f-tilt, and as mentioned it's difficult to shieldgrab most of Sheik's attacks, so 150 is to Sheik what 100 is to almost anyone else.

It looks like Sheik is doing more work to get her KOs than say Sonic, but she isn't at all. Visuals can be deceiving. Diddy and Ness definitely have one up on her in KO power, but they are also correspondingly worse in other areas, like recovery.

I could agree with that to an extent. Her tools let her be able to overcome that weakness, but she can struggle to get that kill somethings even with the very valid set-ups for it.

 

[David Viran]

I wouldn't call it an advanced tech. That really isn't hard to do but is situational and different on different characters. I would put this as a somewhat infinite because some characters cannot get out over certain percents and sets up into a kill.

 

[Locke 06]

So we have this now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWmtA1VCHWY

I don't know how viable it is in real games, but it's there. And if it gets patched out, Sakurai is literally killing Smash 4's competitive scene by removing advanced tech.

Lol. I was literally just looking into that as I was doing that against a Samus as Diddy (playing Diddy for the conquest). I would not be upset if it were patched out. Why do we like infinites? Is this now "don't get jabbed?"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So we have this now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWmtA1VCHWY

I don't know how viable it is in real games, but it's there. And if it gets patched out, Sakurai is literally killing Smash 4's competitive scene by removing advanced tech.

Why would anyone want an infinite to be a part of their game?

Seriously? ZSS infinite on Robin was rejoiced when that got removed.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Lol. I was literally just looking into that as I was doing that against a Samus as Diddy (playing Diddy for the conquest). I would not be upset if it were patched out. Why do we like infinites? Is this now "don't get jabbed?"

Yeah I'm not against the patching of really silly infinites and/or exploits, particularly if they're like this. If it stays whatever but patching it out would not bother me.

 

[Lavani]

I wouldn't be upset about jab1 x∞ being patched out, but I would mourn the subsequent loss of Link's jab>dsmash if they removed it by taking out jab cancels.

 

[Nu~]

Exactly. Maybe if sakurai sees this it'll encourage him to go back and patch other unbalanced things in this game.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh boy infinites. Just what we needed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wouldn't be upset about jab1 x∞ being patched out, but I would mourn the subsequent loss of Link's jab>dsmash if they removed it by taking out jab cancels.

This I can agree with.

 

[thehard]

I wouldn't call it an advanced tech. That really isn't hard to do but is situational and different on different characters. I would put this as a somewhat infinite because some characters cannot get out over certain percents and sets up into a kill.

I was making a joke about how all infinites/jank/glitches are "advanced tech" to Smashers and how they think Smash 4 needs them to be competitive

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's also situational mind you and it requires the right spacing for it to work by the looks of it, not sure how DI would affect that as well.

 

[Ulevo]

Just to note, ZeRo thinks that sheik is the best character in the game (apex sm4sh 2015 winner), if that opinion is important.

He thinks that, or he thought that?

 

[Makorel]

though it does suck that pit has no air options to seal a stock out side of gimping. if only he had robins u air.

Pit's up air would be a good candidate to make a KO move. If the knockback growth on the last hit was increased then it could still be used to combo at low percents while killing at high percents. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So we have this now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWmtA1VCHWY

I don't know how viable it is in real games, but it's there. And if it gets patched out, Sakurai is literally killing Smash 4's competitive scene by removing advanced tech.

I really want that 2 get patched out. last thing i want is jank thing like that being infested all over the smash 4 meta. nor do i want it 2 define the meta either. im sorry but i personally feel like sakurai would be doing us a favor. but this is my own opinon. i simply disagree with the need 2 have things like these 2 be competitive. all that reminded me of was chain grabs in similar function. and i think universally chain grabs removal was better for the meta.

 

[thehard]

It's also situational mind you and it requires the right spacing for it to work by the looks of it, not sure how DI would affect that as well.

I agree that it's situational, but I'm really not a fan of "don't get hit" mechanics that remove player interaction. Because then everyone is just waiting around for the 1 possible ending that is the KO hit. If you could do this 3 times tops or something that would be cool, like jab resets.

 

[Locke 06]

Actually though, if that video had been done with Diddy, so much more hate would arise. Instead, it's a "let's help link get better!".

The issue also is, how do you patch this? You're not going to modify the hitstun formula, landing lag. Are you going to decrease all jab 1 damage or change the angle? Increase jab 1 lag (RIP Palutena)? Looks like it is here to stay and if someone wants to exploit it, they definitely can. I'd put a rule on it if I were a TO, because it is easy to identify and easy to call out. 5 jab 1's and then you need to do something else. Something like that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

overrated as in not the best in the game, and I've fought many.

You call her overrated and only have two chars above her

.......................

*finger hovers over ignore button*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wait and see if they patch it or learn how to avoid it is all people can do.

 

[thehard]

That's the thing: people are going to rejoice over "finally finding a counter for the Diddy menace" or "now Link is viable!" but that's not how it should be...if there's actual problems with character balance buff or nerf through normal means. Don't let jank define this game.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pit's up air would be a good candidate to make a KO move. If the knockback growth on the last hit was increased then it could still be used to combo at low percents while killing at high percents. What could possibly go wrong?

Diddy succefully taught the HOOHAH to pit. who has mutiple jumps...can bait out air doges better.....has a longer more meaty move.......dear god.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I've seen Sheiks try and pressure from midrange with it in order to force an approach. I honestly can't think of anything else. Perhaps enlightenment from a Sheik main is in order?

Smooth Criminal

Too strong in ledge trap scenarios as well as landing traps. Easily force a shield or another defensive response that can be punished on reaction. Or you just close space and do a safe f-tilt and be a total lamer.

 

[Nairo]

I don't know why nairo didn't go zss against dabuz zss has a pretty good MU against rosa.

zss does not have a good MU against rosa it is very annoying to go in vs dabuz (might be easier vs other rosas but dabuz is a different level rosa) I saw him vs choco so it was a risk that I ended up not taking.

 

[etecoon]

That's the thing: people are going to rejoice over "finally finding a counter for the Diddy menace" or "now Link is viable!" but that's not how it should be...if there's actual problems with character balance buff or nerf through normal means. Don't let jank define this game.

Link has been mediocre since forever, can't count on Sakurai to do that. I'm not against patching this out, but it will probably have to involve messing up Link's other jab cancels which is pretty brutal for an already perpetually middle of the road or worse character.

Also Diddy/Rosa/Sonic jank is already defining this game

 

[Emblem Lord]

Glad you didnt put Sheik in there.

She is legit.

Legitimately jankalicious

 

[thehard]

I think Link is quite good in Smash 4. Also I'd use 'cheese' instead of 'jank' as far as some of the top tiers' kits go

 

[A2ZOMG]

So we have this now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWmtA1VCHWY

I don't know how viable it is in real games, but it's there. And if it gets patched out, Sakurai is literally killing Smash 4's competitive scene by removing advanced tech.

This will almost certainly not get patched out. This is very clearly intended and even documented in Tips. The game itself tells you that you can Jab cancel combo with Link. The fact you so happen to be able to Jab cancel into Jab isn't a problem, given how the setup is actually extremely situational.

 

[thehard]

This will not get patched out. This is very clearly intended and even documented in Tips.

Color me surprised, do you have the tip in question on hand?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Color me surprised, do you have the tip in question on hand?

Under tips they even blatantly tell you that you can followup with D-smash and U-smash out of Jab.

There is absolutely no way Link's Jab in its current design is an accident. A repeated Jab cancel isn't necessarily anything new for that matter, and we have to factor DI, Rage, and positioning.

 

[Chaleb]

Some general thoughts about the metagame:

Spoiler

We all know that Diddy and Sheik are the best, but the real question is what characters come after that. These are a bit of my thoughts.
-I think Dabuz has shown us that this character is REALLY good in any non-Diddy match-up. Can throw out really strong and disjointed hitboxes with Luma which mask her light weight.
-This character has a lot of potential, I think he can possibly be right where Diddy and Shiek are now but I'm not quite convinced yet. A good projectile, grab combos, insane recovery, good kill power, and Quick Attack shenanigans are a few of the reasons why. I expect to see this character come out more soon.
-Really solid overall. Would be quite mediocre but the creators blessed Sonic with a very good and (almost) risk-free Spin Dash, and kill throws to boot. Sonic has the speed to punish things that other characters can't, and can also afford to pressure people with mindgames for little cost. Quite a few people (hi 6WX) have shown that Sonic is able to stand up to Diddy and Sheik.
- ZSS is pretty popular right now, but I don't fully believe she's in the top 5. Don't know if it's just me, but she feels a little janky. She has quite the laggy grab and is rather reliant on her Up-B to kill which is rather laggy. I think we only see a lot of this character because she's very popular and looks good on paper. Don't get me wrong, ZSS is solid, but putting her at like #3 is just wrong IMO. This is a character we didn't see in any of the top 16 at Apex and I'm not surprised.
- Yoshi has a lot of tricks and really has very few flaws. He has a great aerial game and can throw out very strong Neutral airs in a few frames. His dash attack is safe on shield, while his neutral-B can catch people off guard with it's B-reversal. Not to mention Egg camping and his double jump superarmor eating through attacks. Definitely up there.

Characters being SLEPT on:
- People need to use this guy. While he's quite a bit different than Brawl, he's actually gotten quite a few nice buffs and retained most of his strengths. Notably, he has a command grab that can be used in the air and B-reversed for mindgames, the Bike which can safely poke opponents, KO, rack-up damage and eat attacks, and the infamous Wario Waft. Waft is especially dangerous this time around because we're playing a two-stock game, and as a result Wario can use the Waft's insane KO power, superarmor, and range to clutch out stocks. Sadly not a lot of attention put on Wario which is why he's being slept on hard.
-Another character being slept on because few people have played a Kid Icarus game, and his strengths aren't as noticeable as Diddy or Shiek's. This character has a LOT of potential, and the only person I've seen kinda delve into him is Nairo. I've heard from Nairo that he thinks the Pit-Shiek match-up is in Pit's favor, and I've also heard Zero say that he thinks Pit has a solid match-up against Diddy. There's a few reasons for this; for one, Pit has a sword (sorta) which eats through characters who use their arms to attack. Another is his insane reach with Arrows, his very fast and powerful (12%) Dash Attack, solid combos (Donw Throw to Upsmash or Up Air) out of grab, underrated kill power with Forward Throw (kills near the ledge in the early 100's) and Side-B (kills off the top VERY early, and also has super armor and can tech chase), multiple jumps (making for a really good edgegaurding game) and a great recovery. I might be biased but I truly think Pit has the potential to be right outside of the Top 5 best characters. (And btw, is worse than regular Pit in every way)

Thoughts on other popular characters
- Mario and Fox have been getting quite a bit of representation (mostly Mario, Fox could use more), mostly because of their simple but effective playstyle. Has a lot of combos and mobility. Ness plays quite a bit differently but has seen some usage due to getting buffed quite a bit from Brawl. Ness has a significant flaw in his recovery, and in general if feels like he has a hard time approaching, though he has a lot of other strengths to compensate. Not much to say, these are characters I feel that Pit/ZSS/Wario should be right next to in viability.
- Greninja looks quite mediocre to me but aMSa made me take another look at him. Seems like another character being slept on atm, though I don't think he's where like, Mario is. I could be proven wrong though.
- Villager is hard to talk about, because he feels like a character you use to counter other specific match-ups, and not as a main.
-I feel like Pac-Man is right under the higher tiers. Obviously has glaring flaws with his grab and approach options, but Abadango and others have shown that Pac-Man has a gigantic number of unique abilities. Also, a very good recovery and aerial game.
- I've heard these characters have been getting slept on, but I know too little about them to comment. Don't think they're high tier material though (we'll see).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Let Link have this.

He is not good. He is average. With this he may become top tier. But I doubt it.

 

[Conda]

Under tips they even blatantly tell you that you can followup with D-smash and U-smash out of Jab.

There is absolutely no way Link's Jab in its current design is an accident. A repeated Jab cancel isn't necessarily anything new for that matter, and we have to factor DI, Rage, and positioning.

Some characters can restart jab pretty quick, others cannot. With most characters, when you try to do jab1 over and over again, it just continues the string. They'd have to change Link's jab to work like that if you hit Jab again, rather than let you restart the jab quickly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Let Link have this.

He is not good. He is average. With this he may become top tier. But I doubt it.

I mean Link's Jab being godlike isn't new. It was crazy good in Brawl, and it's still basically the same in this game.

As I've stated before, the real problem Link has is he has terrible throws that basically do nothing for him besides chip damage.