Character Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

A few 'professional' tips on how to use Link from a man who's reaction time is as low as ~3 frames:

I know you're just living up to your namesake with most of these posts, but...

What?

Do you even know what it would mean for someone to have a 3-frame reaction time? You would literally never lose a match of smash, or take any damage ever. Even Little Mac with his frame 1 jab would never be able to hit you because you'd be able to see him running/dashing/walking/jumping toward you and get out of the way.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I know you're just living up to your namesake with most of these posts, but...

What?

Do you even know what it would mean for someone to have a 3-frame reaction time? You would literally never lose a match of smash, or take any damage ever. Even Little Mac with his frame 1 jab would never be able to hit you because you'd be able to see him running/dashing/walking/jumping toward you and get out of the way.

If you had a 3 frame reaction time (assuming you mean CONSISTENT reactions and say, not predictions based on opponent's movement patterns or decisions) you could probably win with virtually anyone in this game EASILY. Basically you'd have to be either a space alien or a Newtype.

 

[Thinkaman]

So in other words, Little Mac now has the best OOS option in the game.

Well, it's the most effective OoS and combo-breaker option in the game. It has merely reward okay (more than say, Mario up-b, but less than many usmashes, Farore's Wind, Fly, Dark Fists, ect), and extremely steep penalty for miss, but in terms of raw effectiveness (the number of situations it can win) it's as good as it gets.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So, uh.........

Little Mac Rising Uppercut (and Tornado Uppercut) is frame-1 invincible. (Ground and air)

I felt incredibly stupid for not knowing this.

Then I did a forum search and discovered that seemingly no one knew.

How the hell did we not know this?

*Dudley Voice*

UPPACUT!!!!!!

 

[TTTTTsd]

Little Mac would jump twenty tiers further in my heart if he had a Dudley costume and voice.

Relating to the move itself, that's pretty damn good. Keeps reinforcing the idea that Little Mac is a character you want to be center-stage with, not necessarily super aggro but rather good stage control and punish stuff.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Little Mac fights more like Rog then Duds. Little Mac and Rog ironically take finesse and strong fundamentals. While Dudley is plays more like a bruiser. You just go and hit buttons. Let the damage do the work.

Mac's d-tilt = Rogs sweep. Macs dash attack = Overhead Smash. Straight Lunge = EX Dash Straight

And jab = jab

duh

 

[LiteralGrill]

So, uh.........

Little Mac Rising Uppercut (and Tornado Uppercut) is frame-1 invincible. (Ground and air)

I felt incredibly stupid for not knowing this.

Then I did a forum search and discovered that seemingly no one knew.

How the hell did we not know this?

You can jab confirm into up b for the kill, I thought lots of people knew that, plus the tiny bit of invincibility eats through stuff to save my butt all the time. That's not a big thing? Dang...

Also... I know every dreads loves this. But it's time for me to make another vote on reddit... I'm gonna try something different again this time and hope it gets actually decent results... wish me luck ;-;

 

[Sinister Slush]

I knew it came out frame 1, but invincibility not so much.
Dtilt to aerial UpB works too.

 

[Kofu]

Yeah, there's enough space between Mac's rapid jab and its finisher to be punished by Rising Uppercut. I've had it happen to me in Mac dittos. Didn't occur to me that means it would be frame 1 and have invincibility, though. How long does the invincibility last?

 

[Thinkaman]

I knew it came out frame 1, but invincibility not so much.
Dtilt to aerial UpB works too.

It actually hits on frame 3.

Yeah, there's enough space between Mac's rapid jab and its finisher to be punished by Rising Uppercut. I've had it happen to me in Mac dittos. Didn't occur to me that means it would be frame 1 and have invincibility, though. How long does the invincibility last?

Not sure, hard to measure. Not long.

 

[Kofu]

I know you're just living up to your namesake with most of these posts, but...

What?

Do you even know what it would mean for someone to have a 3-frame reaction time? You would literally never lose a match of smash, or take any damage ever. Even Little Mac with his frame 1 jab would never be able to hit you because you'd be able to see him running/dashing/walking/jumping toward you and get out of the way.

On that note, isn't 7 frames reaction time pretty much optimal? It's been a while since I've talked about reaction time.

Not sure, hard to measure. Not long.

Yeah, I realized after I asked the question that it would be pretty stinking hard to test, lol. What are all moves that have frame 1 invincibility?

 

[Thinkaman]

On that note, isn't 7 frames reaction time pretty much optimal? It's been a while since I've talked about reaction time.

Data varies a bit, but 10 frames is pretty godly, 12 is average for competitive gamers.

Yeah, I realized after I asked the question that it would be pretty stinking hard to test, lol. What are all moves that have frame 1 invincibility?

1. Little Mac Up-b

Well, that was easy.

 

[Jaxas]

Data varies a bit, but 10 frames is pretty godly, 12 is average for competitive gamers.

1. Little Mac Up-b

Well, that was easy.

Doesn't Dr. Mario have F1 invincibility on one of his Uspecials? Might be custom only, though

 

[Thinkaman]

Doesn't Dr. Mario have F1 invincibility on one of his Uspecials? Might be custom only, though

The defaults are f3 invincible. The slow, powerful ones are f5. The high jump has no invincibility and is awful regardless.

F1 Super Armor List:

• Bowser Jr. Grounding Dash
• DK Stubborn Headbutt
• Charizard Rock Hurl
• WFT Volatile Breathing
• Shulk Back Slash Charge

 

[Nobie]

Yesterday on For Glory I fought a Lucina as Meta Knight. While in the air, she countered my Up B, except that the Shuttle Loop avoided the counter-hit, swooped back around, and hit her again for the KO.

Is this at all practical for fighting airborne opponents with Counters (namely Little Mac), or is this just a fluke that'd only happen once in a blue moon from someone who shouldn't be trying to Counter Meta Knight anyway?

 

[meleebrawler]

It's still an okay option for getting around predicted grabs or really telegraphed moves without sacrificing spacing due to shieldstun. I am however fine with spotdodge being mostly terrible in this game.

Gotta point out, Ally got away with spotdodging pressure from NAKAT and won that tournament before APEX.

Remember when people online in Brawl would troll you with infinite spotdodges? Good times.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On that note, isn't 7 frames reaction time pretty much optimal? It's been a while since I've talked about reaction time.


Yeah, I realized after I asked the question that it would be pretty stinking hard to test, lol. What are all moves that have frame 1 invincibility?

Testing invincibility isn't hard. We know the startup times of all attacks in this game. Use the pseudo frame advance mode with a second controller to buffer inputs precisely.

I cycle through Mac, Mario, Yoshi, Ike jabs, then usee Mario tilts and grab, then Bowser and Ganondorf's Jab to get frame 1-8 references.

 

[Lavani]

Yeah, I realized after I asked the question that it would be pretty stinking hard to test, lol. What are all moves that have frame 1 invincibility?

Explode a smart bomb above Mac's head, start upB just before it touches him, see when it finally hits him. ez

@ Shaya 's said in this thread at least twice that aerial Dolphin Slash is 1-4f invuln, though the grounded version's invuln is apparently later.

Speaking of Mac, I finally got around to confirming a suspicion I've been having about KO Punch, after a good eight or so in a row whiffed against me:

Simply moving away from him as the punch is starting causes the windbox to save your life.

It does seem character specific, though Ganondorf is the only character I've checked so far that still gets hit. Traction is also a factor; Zelda still gets hit on grassy stages.

 

[meleebrawler]

Explode a smart bomb above Mac's head, start upB just before it touches him, see when it finally hits him. ez

@ Shaya 's said in this thread at least twice that aerial Dolphin Slash is 1-4f invuln, though the grounded version's invuln is apparently later.

Speaking of Mac, I finally got around to confirming a suspicion I've been having about KO Punch, after a good eight or so in a row whiffed against me:

Simply moving away from him as the punch is starting causes the windbox to save your life.

It does seem character specific, though Ganondorf is the only character I've checked so far that still gets hit. Traction is also a factor; Zelda still gets hit on grassy stages.

Wait, so there's actually traction differences other than ice!?

 

[Lavani]

Wait, so there's actually traction differences other than ice!?

Yeah, there was a thread on it awhile back: http://smashboards.com/threads/friction-and-omegas-its-not-dacus.379314/

 

[Terotrous]

The defaults are f3 invincible. The slow, powerful ones are f5. The high jump has no invincibility and is awful regardless.

F1 Super Armor List:

• Bowser Jr. Grounding Dash
• DK Stubborn Headbutt
• Charizard Rock Hurl
• WFT Volatile Breathing
• Shulk Back Slash Charge

On what frame does Pit / Dark Pit's Side B super armor start up?

 

[Balgorxz]

I think it's time once again, I'll do this because honestly I never though we would have such variety after just 2 months, we will see what the future has planned for smash 4.

Personal Tiers
T1:
T2:
T3:
Has potential:

 

[Antonykun]

Yesterday on For Glory I fought a Lucina as Meta Knight. While in the air, she countered my Up B, except that the Shuttle Loop avoided the counter-hit, swooped back around, and hit her again for the KO.

Is this at all practical for fighting airborne opponents with Counters (namely Little Mac), or is this just a fluke that'd only happen once in a blue moon from someone who shouldn't be trying to Counter Meta Knight anyway?

I did that too

 

[Spinosaurus]

I think it's time once again, I'll do this because honestly I never though we would have such variety after just 2 months, we will see what the future has planned for smash 4.

Personal Tiers
T1:
T2:
T3:
Has potential:

Wario has so much potential he's there twice

I like you

 

[LiteralGrill]

Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Voting Feb. 2015​

Since I know how much everyone LOVES these

But for real, it's another good place to discuss characters and to try and educate the general masses on the meta game. Go in there and talk things up! Not to mention it even asked for the character you think has the most hidden potential and the one you find most overrated which should be fun to see.

 

[warionumbah2]

Bowser jr has potential? Did I miss something from Apex?

 

[Nu~]

Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Voting Feb. 2015​

Since I know how much everyone LOVES these

But for real, it's another good place to discuss characters and to try and educate the general masses on the meta game. Go in there and talk things up! Not to mention it even asked for the character you think has the most hidden potential and the one you find most overrated which should be fun to see.

I'm getting my popcorn now.
Get ready for top tier little Mac and bottom tier mario.

 

[David Viran]

Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Voting Feb. 2015​

Since I know how much everyone LOVES these

But for real, it's another good place to discuss characters and to try and educate the general masses on the meta game. Go in there and talk things up! Not to mention it even asked for the character you think has the most hidden potential and the one you find most overrated which should be fun to see.

There's a reason I don't have a reddit account. Everytime someone brings up zss it's she's overrated but I don't think they even know why they say that. They never explain why and I don't want really want to, "educate" anybody.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Question time : Exactly how much better is Diddy in 1.0.4 than in 1.0.4? And what other characters undergone changes?

 

[madworlder]

Question time : Exactly how much better is Diddy in 1.0.4 than in 1.0.4? And what other characters undergone changes?

I'd say Diddy is just as good in 1.0.4 as he is in 1.0.4.

 

[mimgrim]

Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Voting Feb. 2015​

Since I know how much everyone LOVES these

But for real, it's another good place to discuss characters and to try and educate the general masses on the meta game. Go in there and talk things up! Not to mention it even asked for the character you think has the most hidden potential and the one you find most overrated which should be fun to see.

You should do this thing at some place other then Reddit, really. :L

 

[dragontamer]

Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Voting Feb. 2015​

Since I know how much everyone LOVES these

But for real, it's another good place to discuss characters and to try and educate the general masses on the meta game. Go in there and talk things up! Not to mention it even asked for the character you think has the most hidden potential and the one you find most overrated which should be fun to see.

Despite my previous criticism, its important to know the community's thoughts on this.

I'm not going to have any faith in the tier list created though. That only can truly be done when players understand their matchups.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Despite my previous criticism, its important to know the community's thoughts on this.

I'm not going to have any faith in the tier list created though. That only can truly be done when players understand their matchups.

I don't think anyone's really expecting the resulting list to have much merit other than an interesting exercise in how people perceive the characters. Apex being in everyone's recent memory will greatly influence the results no doubt. (I'd like to see if Olimar climbs the list following Dabuz's showing.)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Woah i just read that someone thinks samus is bad when someones under her? what?! her dair and bombs are legit great landing options in this game. expecially bombs, landing into your own bombs 2 cause another bounce and such even makes for even tricky recovery punishes. Misconceptions like these come from the lack of knowledge on her move set. samus has no problems landing safely if u use bombs smartly.

 

[Luigisama]

Bowser jr has potential? Did I miss something from Apex?

Tweek a bowser jr made it into r2 pools at apex. There is footage of him at some tourneys on youtube like xsmash and he was also on stream at apex.

 

[Makorel]

The defaults are f3 invincible. The slow, powerful ones are f5. The high jump has no invincibility and is awful regardless.

F1 Super Armor List:

• Bowser Jr. Grounding Dash
• DK Stubborn Headbutt
• Charizard Rock Hurl
• WFT Volatile Breathing
• Shulk Back Slash Charge

There's also several "unknown substates" in Pit's frame data that literally say "Begins super armor on real frame 1" and "Ends super armor on real frame 1". My hunch is that two of those are Pit's second side special (the counter arm) and his second down special (Impact Orbitars) but I don't know for sure.

On what frame does Pit / Dark Pit's Side B super armor start up?

This is also a guess because so much of Pit's super armor stuff is unlabeled but I think it's frame 11.

 

[Shaya]

1. Link's jab infinite is real and it isn't something you DI out of.
It is character dependent though, thank god. (Yay for Marth!)
The only way to not get ****ed by this is to shuffle the first hit at far away range, any subsequent jab means you're praying for them to mess up.
The outer hit of jab1 knocks people inwards, while the inner one knocks outwards. I didn't test things with the guy who discovered it (I think that's what the guy said) enough to be 100% certain, but if there's any chance of getting out from the second jab1 onwards, it may be downwards shuffling, but otherwise no, it's real. This was tested with players like Vinnie and NAKAT? apparently.

Link's jab1 is 6 frames start up, long-ish range and is relatively safe on shield.
It would be easy to fix it without making it's follow up potential worse. Reducing the "inner sending" hitbox size (i.e. towards the tip) or the hitbox which is close to the body send upwards slightly (in a way that combos into jab2) without pushing them back into the black hole.
It probably should get patched. You can game stall someone for a really long time with this as well as it lasts on most "infinite" characters well into the 200-300% range.

2. Reaction speed is very important, it's worth talking about as it defines just about everything. It is the glue that bridges theory and practicality.
So yeah, not sure why talking about it is bad here, reaction speed is literally more important than any other player feature in Smash. People see Nairo win with Zelda and think Zelda is good (or X top player playing Y) and what they don't realise is just what being smart + stupendous reaction speed actually means.

It's honestly Reaction Speed >= Player Skill (as in, a worse player with better reaction speed after a certain threshold [of skill] doesn't really matter) > Character Choice. I talk about this game as if 10-15 frame reaction windows are standard. You have to think about the game in this paradigm. The discussion in itself does detract from what the thread's purpose is, but as always, people do need to be "reminded" about the science of the nervous system.
It's also the major physical and "luck" (based genetics) factor which dwindles rather than sharpens/improve.

3. Radical Larry... I'm not sure how many facepalm things you're going to say that you get called out on before you... just wake up (start to think things through) or grow up (actually learn/know what you're talking about). Your obliviousness isn't funny at this stage.

4. ZeRo did put Sheik into first place a couple of weeks ago (maybe even longer now, probably late December or maybe early Jan). I'm not sure if it's the same thought process now.
I think the sanest argument to give towards those who feel's Sheik's potential puts her at first (which I can still attest to) is just what a tier list is really showing you.
Diddy Kong's match up spread is going to be disgustingly more skewed than Sheiks. Right now and in the future and forever most likely, without patches. It isn't like Dedede where 1/3rd of the cast which is high/top tier (bar three) don't have this stuff work on them. Sheik may be theoretically unbeatable, but Diddy Kong is such a bat **** insane character in terms of rewards that the 1/10 chance of a human messing up equates to stock losses by the Sheik while the Diddy is just accumulating rage which pushes his moves into further safety and expands his combo game.
Sheik would be the best in this game right now without rage IMO because of the whole shield safety bull ****.

5. Diddy was good pre-patch, but what really shifted Diddy was the removal of vectoring. Upwards vectoring denied Diddy any down throw or up throw follow ups at kill percent. This is also the reason that Mario and Luigi pushed upwards so so so fast. Their vertical based combos now last 50% longer at the very least, including at kill percent too.

 

[thehard]

Here's the article where ZeRo and M2K talk about Sheik by the way: http://smash4friends.com/sheik-possibly-best-smash4-character/

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Here's the article where ZeRo and M2K talk about Sheik by the way: http://smash4friends.com/sheik-possibly-best-smash4-character/

yeah people are gunna be jumping a band wagon when u get second in a rather large touny with your second day diddy m2k. i don't really think thats what one would call overated. but regardless good read thanks for posting.

 

[Shaya]

Also another thing about this whole intention suggestion.
REALLY?

Like... really?
For any other move that could possibly achieve this, including on shield, someone (the initiator probably 100% of the time) gets pushed away while using multiple jabs (it's six hits probably, going by Pikachu's "limit") or walled in down tilts (right?). On top of this, the game limits forced get up locks to three strikes.
The fact that the first hit of Link's jab doesn't have this effect is an oversight, the move doesn't need to have a blackhole hitbox set up to allow combos into his smash attacks.