Character Competitive Impressions

[KenMeister]

Totally off-topic, but do people still have low opinions of Kirby? I ask because it tends to amaze me just how much priority his aerials have, which can make it difficult for characters with a weaker aerial game to counter (due to unfavorable trades), and he also has 0-60% UpTilt **** on fast fallers (like Sheik), regardless of DI.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Totally off-topic, but do people still have low opinions of Kirby? I ask because it tends to amaze me just how much priority his aerials have, which can make it difficult for characters with a weaker aerial game to counter (due to unfavorable trades), and he also has 0-60% UpTilt **** on fast fallers (like Sheik), regardless of DI.

i dont have low opinions of him he has a top notco combo game...when he gets in. thats where he struggles.

and if ur experiencing any form of priorety on ANY of kirbys air attacks, your opponent has either not attacked at all or has absolutely no idea on the basic premise of spacing. the only play kirbys air attacks have true merit is off stage where he shines the most.

 

[ZSaberLink]

FYI from the Link Threads, we've been investigating how broken this jab chain is... Courtesy of our friendly mod of the Link boards...

I should note before I go on. There have been two proposed ways to make Jab cancelling easier. The first is to hold diagonally backwards which allows you to Jab while crouching, and the other is to hold down with the joystick and hit diagonally down with the A-stick. Of these two methods, only the latter actually helps. If you use the diagonally down and backwards joystick method, you have to wait till Link has crouched all the way back down again before you are able to jab, otherwise a F-tilt backwards will come out. So you can think of this tech as the final nail in the coffin of the 'c-stick or a-stick' debate. I personally am going to switch to a-stick because of this. Also, if anyone is worried about this being too difficult, it's nothing compared to the Brawl Jab Lock. The Link mains have got this.
(Note that the a-stick does not work well in training mode slower speeds, so all of the following was done the old fashioned way with 1/4 hold, crouching and a lot of patience.)


Here's what I've tested so far in training mode.

In the video it said that Diddy starts at around 50% but if you're frame perfect, you can start it at 40%. At 39% Diddy will shield the next Jab. [50% is probably a more realistic percentage to go by of course because of human error, but I'm using 40% for testing purposes.]

I used this to test whether DI affects things. I had Diddy taunt and then hold down so that there would be DI downwards with no crouch cancelling affecting the knockback. I was still able to get it to work on 40% with Diddy unable to shield if Link did it perfectly. This is not too surprising seeing as DI isn't going to have much effect on such a small knockback move. A single SDI input downwards likewise seemed to have no effect.


I then tested to see how it works on all characters.
For now I'm just going to test starting percents. Note that the following percents assume that Jab is not stale and that Link is on the same percent.

Mario can double Jump out at 0%. Clearly it helps if they are forced to land. We'll be seeing a lot of this I'd wager. Actually, I'll just list all the characters who, along with Mario, can double jump to escape this at 0% right here.
Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Rosalina, Bowser Jr (your DJ will get Jabbed if you don't immediately airdodge, and if you mess it up you're in a tough spot), Wario, DK, GnW can Up-B out (DJ gets Jabbed), Mac, Link, Zelda, Tink, Samus, Pit, Marth, Ike, Robin, DHD, Kirby, DDD, Pikachu (DJ gets Jabbed but Pika can Up-B after that to avoid the next Jab or just DJ immediately airdodge), Lucario, Jiggs, ROB (DJ gets Jabbed but ROB can Up-B after to avoid the next Jab or just DJ immediately airdodge), Ness (will get the DJ jabbed unless you immediately airdodge (if you mess it up you're screwed)), Villager, Olimar, WFT, Shulk (even in shield stance), Dr Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina, Pac-Man, Sonic (DJ will get Jabbed, so just DJ and immediately airdodge or Up-B out), Gunner/Sword (DJ will get Jabbed but you can Up-B after to get out or just DJ and airdodge immediately)

Now I'll put all the interesting characters that this actually works on below with their starting percents. Note that the percents given are assuming that Link is frame perfect so you may want to add on like 10 to 20%.
-Bowser: Works from 0%
-Diddy: Works from 40%
-Sheik: Works from 64%
-Ganon: Works from 5%
-ZSS: Works from 47%
-Palutena: Works from 11%
-MK: Works from 28%
-Fox: Works from 62%
-Falco: Works from 62%
-Charizard: Works from 2%
-Greninja: Works from 67%
-C Falcon: Works from 58%
-Mega Man: Works from 27%
-Brawler: Works from 11%

 

[Road Death Wheel]

FYI from the Link Threads, we've been investigating how broken this jab chain is... Courtesy of our friendly mod of the Link boards...

cough* what the hell is this? is link now brawl dedede? just invalidating all these great characters? glad pit and samus can get out of this.

 

[HeavyLobster]

-Ganon: Works from 5%

Of course it does. Curse the Blade of Evil's Bane.

 

[David Viran]

FYI from the Link Threads, we've been investigating how broken this jab chain is... Courtesy of our friendly mod of the Link boards...

Does rage effect this or is it character dependent or has Noone tested rage?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Of course it does. Curse the Blade of Evil's Bane.

it works on bowser on 0% does this mean bowser is more evil than ganon?

 

[HeavyLobster]

it works on bowser on 0% does this mean bowser is more evil than ganon?

Of course not. Sakurai is just silly sometimes.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Keep in mind I don't think Fox got around to testing everyone. These are just the ones he tested with a frame perfect jab chain.

Btw, Amsa is just a pleasure to watch. That match against Luigi imo clearly showed someone who's gone fairly far with the character's metagame (Amsa) vs. someone who's still doing very simple stuff imo (dash grab, UThrow, Jump, Aerial, 2nd Jump + Aerial & Fireballs). I do hope we see more of that going forward rather than the boring obvious plays (I haven't seen Zero play Diddy outside of the finals, and that matchup was so boring - Fairs all match from Diddy T_T).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Keep in mind I don't think Fox got around to testing everyone. These are just the ones he tested with a frame perfect jab chain.

oh geez why man. T.T

 

[KenMeister]

cough* what the hell is this? is link now brawl dedede? just invalidating all these great characters? glad pit and samus can get out of this.

I'm pretty sure Samus would struggle against Link regardless of the immunity to jab cancel infinites, though.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Keep in mind I don't think Fox got around to testing everyone. These are just the ones he tested with a frame perfect jab chain.

What do you mean? I tested it with Link on every character. If instead you mean that I didn't test every character to see if they have something like Link, then sure, I didn't test everyone.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm pretty sure Samus would struggle against Link regardless of the immunity to jab cancel infinites, though.

why's that? iv had no problems thouse far. are u experienced with samus? cuz so far iv been working with her for 3 months. and am only finding misconceptions on her abilities.

 

[etecoon]

Here's the article where ZeRo and M2K talk about Sheik by the way: http://smash4friends.com/sheik-possibly-best-smash4-character/

I disagree with their thought process. He opens with "I thought Sheik was weak but then realized she can always play safely" and then later argues that part of Needles being such a good control tool is that she can randomly dash grab, which is a very punishable read. Also mentions as everyone is lately fair's block safety, and then describes reading based mixups post shielded fair which are punishable if read, not to mention that fair along with most of Sheik's moveset can be overpowered by other attacks, a lot of characters should have hitboxes they can throw out if Sheik short hops at them and it's not like you can air dodge into the ground in this game...and even if she could it would still be a mixup where Sheik can be read and lose, and when she wins she gets less reward than Diddy.

Zero just put up a video today in which he explains that he uses Diddy almost exclusively even though he can basically play every character in the game well because he needs to place first as often as possible for sponsorship and such. Not second, not third, not top 8, first every time is important for him and this is why he uses the actual best character in the game.

Seeing the top Diddy players try to hype the next best character in the game gives me Barwl nostalgia. It's not even necessary with Diddy, no one is trying to ban him, is it force of habit?

 

[Blazing Ambition]

I'm not too well-versed in the ways of Sm4sh samus, but how does she play compared to brawl samus?
I just miss the sex kick.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I disagree with their thought process. He opens with "I thought Sheik was weak but then realized she can always play safely" and then later argues that part of Needles being such a good control tool is that she can randomly dash grab, which is a very punishable read. Also mentions as everyone is lately fair's block safety, and then describes reading based mixups post shielded fair which are punishable if read, not to mention that fair along with most of Sheik's moveset can be overpowered by other attacks, a lot of characters should have hitboxes they can throw out if Sheik short hops at them and it's not like you can air dodge into the ground in this game...and even if she could it would still be a mixup where Sheik can be read and lose, and when she wins she gets less reward than Diddy.

Zero just put up a video today in which he explains that he uses Diddy almost exclusively even though he can basically play every character in the game well because he needs to place first as often as possible for sponsorship and such. Not second, not third, not top 8, first every time is important for him and this is why he uses the actual best character in the game.

Seeing the top Diddy players try to hype the next best character in the game gives me Barwl nostalgia. It's not even necessary with Diddy, no one is trying to ban him, is it force of habit?

should we be trying 2 ban diddy?

@ Blazing Ambition

now im not terribly well versed in brawl samus as well but i can name a few improvements that she does have from brawl.

-an actually powerful charge shot.
-a strong combo game
- neat setups
- strong super missles

i will touch up on those positives in a moment but talking about the sex kick. its more of a 50/50 thing since her old nair was usefull for an abundence of situations from a defensive point of view. while her new nair is much more offensive and even has a surpising amount of kill power. now what made her old nair good was what made almost every sex kick good. body hit box. making it easy to land and grab your space. Her new nair does not have full body hit box and if it did i would argue her new nair better in every way. but her new nair has a neat hit box that can be used in very strange cross ups like an over head nair just 2 fast fall and land the back hit on the other side. her new nair has a sudo spike trajectory that not only hit hard but can set up some really dangerous tech reads via charge shot.but her new nair while can be used in the same form as her old nair the hitbox can just be less practical in negetive state but can clip people pulling off combo shinanigans like mario's u tilt. But in general it falls short in defensive situations compared 2 her brawl nair.

Now onto the improvements.
Samus's charge shot is now legit usefull and threating killing as low as 90% edge of stage. 120-140% middle
this causes people to now simply wuss out with its threat throwing out unnesssary shields and more use of air dodge and rolling. this can be worked with for mind games and set ups with empty hops or simply give u the space to control since your opponent will definitly be on edge of losing the stock. its safe 2 say this one move is her main kill option. not that she lacks any really. (frame 10 f smash hello)

if it has not been noticed before ill state it now samus's combo game is at new levels in smash for having a plethora of options for opponents in the air that convert quite easily into more damage mainly u air witch is fantastic and has low lag like most of samus's air attacks. she has several grounded options that pop the opponent straight above her witch is perfect for u air's and possible bair's/nair's to seal stocks. or even up air witch kills later but can still be an option if u can land it well. she also has zair and its double hit 2 open up a few combos.

Onto set ups she has quite a few. involving nair, down throw, u air, and jab.
iv stated that her nair hits like a sub spike that can cause situations where u can read the tech and iff they don't tech its a free charge shot kill. if u have charge shot well charged of course. her down throw can be converted 2 easy damage with u air follow ups and can even convert into a kills when on platforms with her new staple combo u air, u air, screw attack killing early. her u air is almost the same case as down throw but u were simply anti airing with u air when u started the combo. but its also fair to note since u air has no landing hit its also possible to land with u air before the final hit and combo striaght into u tilt for the kill.( that is not very easy to do but i myself am having more success with it.) and her jab while i mostly use it has a spacing tool when my opponent is at high percents since i causes them 2 slide quite the distance. but around the edge u can quickly nail em with the first hit and they will just slide right off the edge witch you should be quick off stage to convert that into bair,dair. bomb gimping ect.

Now her missles have been nerfed. well the turning ones at least with no missile canceling. but her super missles are more damaging. while they do not kill they do pop up opponents around 60%-90% and when you coordinate your space correctly this can convert into a fair, bair, or u air for more damage and depending on how close u are 2 the edge the stock.

But i will say that samus does have a hard time getting her spacing back from charaters with good rush down like Captain falcon. note that i said getting back. when samus has her space she can control it well enough to make her opponent do stupid things but if u get knocked off the edge it can become difficult reclaiming your grounding again and by that,i don't mean grabing the edge she does that quite well. i mean simply getting your footing back can be hard to mix up since she does not have to many options to give space. her best options are off stage fair, u air and zair to remove the opponent but overall it can be rough. i hope this helps. if anyone has any questions please ask.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik can lame better then Diddy and edgeguard better. Diddy can wall better with mindless hitboxes and has greater reward.

Also I will be going Marth vs Link in tourney.

 

[Cenizas]

should we be trying 2 ban diddy?

No, he's not ever really gonna be like how MK was. Hopefully, we'll get broader stage lists in general as well, which could possibly tone him down.

 

[etecoon]

should we be trying 2 ban diddy?

IMO it shouldn't even come up, he's not that good or dominant. It's part of why the campaign to crown Sheik the best character and Pikachu the future best character is obnoxious, there's no reason for the misdirection. At least I understood the motive when M2K tried to tell us that Meta Knight lost to perfect camping Olimar and that Diddy was actually the best character in Brawl, now I'm just confused

 

[Road Death Wheel]

IMO it shouldn't even come up, he's not that good or dominant. It's part of why the campaign to crown Sheik the best character and Pikachu the future best character is obnoxious, there's no reason for the misdirection. At least I understood the motive when M2K tried to tell us that Meta Knight lost to perfect camping Olimar and that Diddy was actually the best character in Brawl, now I'm just confused

i was under the impression that u were implying that we should be banning him, (i guess we are on the same page then.)

also every body i edited my last post so check that out guys i really don't want that to go unread since i spent some time typing it. how unlike me.

 

[ZSaberLink]

What do you mean? I tested it with Link on every character. If instead you mean that I didn't test every character to see if they have something like Link, then sure, I didn't test everyone.

Sorry I was mentioning that the list of characters and %ages isn't complete because you only picked the chars that you thought were interesting right? It seemed like you listed everyone who could escape at 0% though, unless I misread.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sheik does have one significant advantage over Diddy, which is the ability to control the pace of the match with her superior mobility and needles. Diddy does have a much easier time getting kills, though, and right now that advantage seems to loom larger in practice, though over time Sheik's speed and safety could win out. Move staling is an issue for both Sheik and Diddy, especially Sheik, and this is an area where all top players have room for improvement. Mr R. dropped game 1 to Dabuz largely because he staled out his kill moves and Rosa killed him with rage and the set snowballed against him from there. Once high-level Sheiks begin to be more careful about this the character will become that much more dangerous. In Diddy's case move staling is mainly an issue because his two best kill moves are fair and uair, and said moves are also used for basically everything else. Diddy does have other options, and as his meta develops I think top players will be more careful to use bair over fair for low % dthrow followups when possible, and perhaps some of his other good but overshadowed tools like nair will see use.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Actually I'm working on a new list right now. It will include more characters who I previously thought this Jab tech didn't work on.

 

[Kofu]

Sorry I was mentioning that the list of characters and %ages isn't complete because you only picked the chars that you thought were interesting right? It seemed like you listed everyone who could escape at 0% though, unless I misread.

He listed who could escape in the previous paragraph. Dedede being able to escape surprises me but I guess his multiple jumps let him get free while other heavies get bodied.

(Post started before FIOD posted)

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm pretty sure Samus would struggle against Link regardless of the immunity to jab cancel infinites, though.

Bomb > Fully Charged Charge Shot, Better Aerial Game (he's faster), better ground game (he's faster AND more powerful), better recovery, better meteor (they're really almost all the same), better customs, better everything, really. And his Hylian Shield basically makes Samus have to rush in if Link's on ground.

Did I mention far better combo potential with Link?

Now with the whole Link Jab Infinite, well, looks like we have a certified top 5 character here, and if not top 5, top 10 at the least. (And no, I'm not up to my 'usual shenanigans' actually, I'm being dead serious now.)

 

[Luigisama]

Oh I smell some new limit diddy rules. Instead lgl will there be a grab limit for timeouts? Stages that will limit his up air kills or eliminate stages with low cellings.

On a serious note I think that characters that have to camp or can camp do well against diddy or at least pocket diddys.

Also I feel like this game has progresed faster than expected.

 

[KenMeister]

Bomb > Fully Charged Charge Shot, Better Aerial Game (he's faster), better ground game (he's faster AND more powerful), better recovery, better meteor (they're really almost all the same), better customs, better everything, really. And his Hylian Shield basically makes Samus have to rush in if Link's on ground.

Did I mention far better combo potential with Link?

Now with the whole Link Jab Infinite, well, looks like we have a certified top 5 character here, and if not top 5, top 10 at the least. (And no, I'm not up to my 'usual shenanigans' actually, I'm being dead serious now.)

Having a jab infinite does not guarantee a character top 5 placement, and besides, it only works on certain fast fallers. Otherwise, Brawl Dedede would be a top 10 character (and he's not).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Bomb > Fully Charged Charge Shot, Better Aerial Game (he's faster), better ground game (he's faster AND more powerful), better recovery, better meteor (they're really almost all the same), better customs, better everything, really. And his Hylian Shield basically makes Samus have to rush in if Link's on ground.

Did I mention far better combo potential with Link?

Now with the whole Link Jab Infinite, well, looks like we have a certified top 5 character here, and if not top 5, top 10 at the least. (And no, I'm not up to my 'usual shenanigans' actually, I'm being dead serious now.)

Larry....
okay now then ima cover everything u stated
cough bomb vs charge shot
these 2 attacks are very different i don't understand your comparison. plus charge shot goes right through a bomb btw

"better air game". welp u sure gave me alot 2 work with there. i just wrote a paragraph as to why samus's combo game is legit and u just come in with this. Almost every single one of samus's offensive attacks are combo orientated and convert very easy into both damage and kills. u air alone is more usefull than all of link's air attacks other than nair. link also has the better zair imo.

ground game? link does not even play the ground game. he mid ranges you till there an opening. samus can actually appoach with grounded options.

i dont know what u mean by more power. like more kill power? i would argue that. more damage? ill give that 2 link he hits hard.
faster? No not at all. Samus is 29th in running speed while link is a whooping 41st. Samus in air speed is 28-30th and link is....42ndhe out right loses that department sorry.

recovery? the, same they both have some form of bomb use and tethers there up b's are very much similar 2 with being able 2 hit them both out of it with specific attacks..

samus's meteor is better than links in terms of utility and the the easest dair to auto cancel. links dair is also used very differently though so im willing to be lenient and say im wrong here. it does have a decent disjoint.

better customs? last itme i recall people were not really flocking over link amazing customs like they were samus but hey whatever. i don't know much about links customs but iv heard they were not 2 special.

hylian shield is so risky 2 use since it still locks you into block stun. iv had way to many occurances of me shooting a missle and punishing a hylian shield block.

And definitly no on the combo potential link is not a heavy combo character in the first place i don't know why you would use him as such but regardless samus like said earlyer has so many combo starters for attacks its uncanny.

But maybe you see something im not, perhaps one day i will reach your uncanny level reaction time of 3 frames and maybe what you said would be so absolutly obvious i would not think to clairfy the content of your posts.

and yes infinite jab is amazing we know

 

[Luigisama]

For the link jab can diddy drop a banana to break the jab chain?

 

[Yonder]

Well, his name does have Radical in it...

Link is not top 5 or 10 because of an infinite. Give me tourney results with it once more people discover it and come back to me.

And Nintendo will patch it anyways. It's one thing to be broken based on legal characteristics, but to be broken cause of a pure exploit...it's patching time, back to obscurity with ya Link!

 

[Road Death Wheel]

For the link jab can diddy drop a banana to break the jab chain?

nuu stop we if link is gunna have a jank move, let it at least work on the most cheese character in the game. T.T

 

[DanGR]

Rosalina's Matchups

Rosalina's matchups are less cut-and-dry than many others'. Stocks/matches can be swingy because Rosalina wins/loses hard in her advantaged/disadvantaged states. Luma is a difficult variable to assess in part because his priority mechanics aren't intuitive. The clash/trade interactions behave consistently from a mechanical standpoint, but player interactions are muddied by the minor disjoints, a tiny hurtbox, and situational Luma positioning. The anti-Luma meta seem's to be pretty stale at the moment too- only doubly so with custom specials' exclusion.

Clear disadvantage:
Diddy

Small disadvantage:
Sheik

Even:
Fox
Mario

Small advantage:
Captain Falcon
Sonic

Clear advantage: (everyone else probably)
Wario
Pit
DK
Luigi
Ness
Greninja
Megaman

Not sure yet:
ZSS (leaning clear advantage)
Pikachu (leaning even)
Yoshi (leaning clear advantage)
DHD (leaning small advantage)

@#HBC | Bunzy - agree/disagree?

 

[Luigisama]

nuu stop we if link is gunna have a jank move, let it at least work on the most cheese character in the game. T.T

Cmon man if snake can pull a grenade out during ics grab why not?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Cmon man if snake can pull a grenade out during ics grab why not?

We don't talk about snake any more.....

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Here's that updated list I promised.
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-11#post-18513196
Have fun.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Here's that updated list I promised.
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-11#post-18513196
Have fun.

i don't know how 2 feel. my poor pitty pat. T.T but WOOOHOOO SAMUS IS SAFE YALL! Xd (im very aware i maybe the only one happy about this.)

 

[Ffamran]

Bomb > Fully Charged Charge Shot, Better Aerial Game (he's faster), better ground game (he's faster AND more powerful), better recovery, better meteor (they're really almost all the same), better customs, better everything, really. And his Hylian Shield basically makes Samus have to rush in if Link's on ground.

Did I mention far better combo potential with Link?

Now with the whole Link Jab Infinite, well, looks like we have a certified top 5 character here, and if not top 5, top 10 at the least. (And no, I'm not up to my 'usual shenanigans' actually, I'm being dead serious now.)

To clarify who's faster between the two. I might be wrong about Samus's Fair frame data except for when it begins.

Anyway, in terms of intial hit frame, Samus has a faster Jab, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Dtilt, Side Smash, Fair, and Uair; Link has a faster Utilt, Up Smash, Nair, Bair, Grab, Dash Grab, and Pivot Grab; they're equal with Down Smash.

In terms of how long a move stays out, Samus would have a faster Jab, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Dtilt, Side Smash, Up Smash, Down Smash, Nair, Bair, Uair, and Dair; Link would have a faster Utilt, Grab, Dash Grab, and Pivot Grab.

Dashing speed: Samus is ranked 29; Link is ranked 41.
Walking speed: Samus is ranked 30; Link is ranked 17.
Airspeed: Samus is ranked 28-30; Link is ranked 42.
Fall speed: Samus is ranked 42-43; Link is ranked 15.
Fast fall speed: Samus is ranked 42-43; Link is ranked 3.
For the hell of it, weight: Samus is ranked 9; Link is ranked 13-15.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|7-8, 16-17, 20-24|3-4, 17-20
Dash Attack|21-24|10-13
Ftilt|15-19|8-10
Utilt|8-12|15-18
Dtilt|13-14|6-8
Side Smash|15-16, 21-22|10-11
Up Smash|10-15, 26-29, 41-45|11-12, 15-16, 19-20, 23-24, 27-28
Down Smash|9-10 or 21-22|9-10 or 17-18
Nair|7-8 or 9-31|8-9 or 16-17 or 18-22
Fair|14-15, 26-27|6-7, 11-12, 13-14, 15-16, 30-31
Bair|6-8, 18-22|9-10 or 11-14
Uair|11-13 or 14-40|5-6, 8-9, 10-11, 12-13, 14-15, 20-21
Dair|14-17 or 18-20 or 21-64|17-18 or 18-21 or 22-23
Grab|12-18|16-25
Dash Grab|14-20|16-26
Pivot Grab|15-21|17-28

Links to where I got data.

Spoiler

Frame data from here: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8.
Here for Samus's Fair which I might have read wrong: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=samus&mode=view104.
And here for grab data: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-initial-frame-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/.
Weight: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/.
Air speed: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-air-speed-rankings-and-values.383217/.
Running/Walking speed: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/.
Fall/Fast fall: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-fall-fast-fall-rankings.384660/.

 

[ZSaberLink]

FYI, Fox finished the list and Link's jab chain works on everyone but Samus & Jigglypuff. Have fun....

Larry....
okay now then ima cover everything u stated
cough bomb vs charge shot
these 2 attacks are very different i don't understand your comparison. plus charge shot goes right through a bomb btw

"better air game". welp u sure gave me alot 2 work with there. i just wrote a paragraph as to why samus's combo game is legit and u just come in with this. Almost every single one of samus's offensive attacks are combo orientated and convert very easy into both damage and kills. u air alone is more usefull than all of link's air attacks other than nair. link also has the better zair imo.

ground game? link does not even play the ground game. he mid ranges you till there an opening. samus can actually appoach with grounded options.

i dont know what u mean by more power. like more kill power? i would argue that. more damage? ill give that 2 link he hits hard.
faster? No not at all. Samus is 29th in running speed while link is a whooping 41st. Samus in air speed is 28-30th and link is....42ndhe out right loses that department sorry.

recovery? the, same they both have some form of bomb use and tethers there up b's are very much similar 2 with being able 2 hit them both out of it with specific attacks..

samus's meteor is better than links in terms of utility and the the easest dair to auto cancel. links dair is also used very differently though so im willing to be lenient and say im wrong here. it does have a decent disjoint.

hylian shield is so risky 2 use since it still locks you into block stun. iv had way to many occurances of me shooting a missle and punishing a hylian shield block.

And definitely no on the combo potential link is not a heavy combo character in the first place i don't know why you would use him as such but regardless samus like said earlier has so many combo starters for attacks its uncanny.

Uggh radical... it's unfortunate he represents Link T_T, he can actually say a correct thing or two every once in a while, but he surrounds it with so much crap no one would believe a word he says. Hopefully I can clarify some actual points.

Actually yes, bombs cancel/absorb Samus's fully charged shot. You can also leave a bomb on the ground (Bomb -> Zair) which will absorb Samus's fully charged shot (it pretty much absorbs anything it's fairly insane.

From the Link metagame thread:
Uncharged Charge Shot: Bomb Wins
Fully Charged Charge Shot: Cancel
Homing Missile: Bomb Wins
Super Missile: Cancel

Link's neutral game (aka standing still) is not ideal as far as I can tell. The whole point is to keep moving with him and using your myriad of options. Link can actually somewhat approach in this game, but apart from Izaw I really haven't seen anyone even really try. He does have the 3rd fastest fast fall, so perhaps that could be used?

I can't comment on Samus, but Link can combo folks to an extent with a combination of his projectiles and his sword. It's nowhere near the top, but Link can combo Jab 1 into most attacks, and Utilts combo with themselves at low %ages.

No comments on customs really, although having a normal N64 style Boomerang seems nice. No idea of Samus's customs. Just ignore Radical honestly. His 3 frame recovery will cream everyone anyways lol </sarcasm>.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

To clarify who's faster between the two. I might be wrong about Samus's Fair frame data except for when it begins.

Anyway, in terms of intial hit frame, Samus has a faster Jab, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Dtilt, Side Smash, Fair, and Uair; Link has a faster Utilt, Up Smash, Nair, Bair, Grab, Dash Grab, and Pivot Grab; they're equal with Down Smash.

In terms of how long a move stays out, Samus would have a faster Jab, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Dtilt, Side Smash, Up Smash, Down Smash, Nair, Bair, Uair, and Dair; Link would have a faster Utilt, Grab, Dash Grab, and Pivot Grab.

Dashing speed: Samus is ranked 29; Link is ranked 41.
Walking speed: Samus is ranked 30; Link is ranked 17.
Airspeed: Samus is ranked 28-30; Link is ranked 42.
Fall speed: Samus is ranked 42-43; Link is ranked 15.
Fast fall speed: Samus is ranked 42-43; Link is ranked 3.
For the hell of it, weight: Samus is ranked 9; Link is ranked 13-15.


Links to where I got data.

Spoiler

Frame data from here: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8.
Here for Samus's Fair which I might have read wrong: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=samus&mode=view104.
And here for grab data: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-initial-frame-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/.
Weight: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/.
Air speed: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-air-speed-rankings-and-values.383217/.
Running/Walking speed: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/.
Fall/Fast fall: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-fall-fast-fall-rankings.384660/.

Thank bud this is some cool information ya always got my back.
its crazy how fast some of links options are . well he sure as hell needs them with mobility specs like that. fast fall and low air speed just spells combo food. And boy are both there grabs poopy. sucks thats most of links fastest options are on the ground where his low mobility lies.

@ Z ZSaberLink thank u for correcting me on the charge shot side note. i gotta lab a bit more i guess. and yeah it can be a bit painfull to read those type of posts but i don't want misinformation to just lounge untouched people come into this thread for info u know?

Also yes link can combo into is many ranged options but many of links attacks do have high knock back properties making combo string higher than 3 a real chore.

 

[NairWizard]

Bomb > Fully Charged Charge Shot, Better Aerial Game (he's faster), better ground game (he's faster AND more powerful), better recovery, better meteor (they're really almost all the same), better customs, better everything, really. And his Hylian Shield basically makes Samus have to rush in if Link's on ground.

Did I mention far better combo potential with Link?

Now with the whole Link Jab Infinite, well, looks like we have a certified top 5 character here, and if not top 5, top 10 at the least. (And no, I'm not up to my 'usual shenanigans' actually, I'm being dead serious now.)

Usual shenanigans spotted, re: Link v Samus. Better aerial game is probably true, but better recovery is definitely not (tether grab, don't forget), neither is better negative state in general (Samus isn't bad in negative state), and Samus is heavier too I believe for what it's worth--it isn't worth much, I'd say. Better customs? That's not even close to being true; Samus has some of the best customs in the game; Relentless Missiles are game changers that Link really wishes that he had access to. Also, Samus' z-air is better than Link's, and that's important for a strong midrange option.

Pikachu (leaning even)

@#HBC | Bunzy - agree/disagree?

ESAM seems to think that Pikachu bodies Rosalina super hard. That's been my experience as well (through facing limited Rosalinas in my region), but I think that against a Rosalina of Dabuz' level the MU would be pretty close to even. I actually really enjoy this MU so I wanted to break it down a bit:

Rosalina has more range and can effectively wall Pikachu out with n-airs, jab, and d-tilts, but once Pikachu gets in it's hard for her to get him back out. He can duck under Luma many times or f-air or b-air past it because both attacks squeeze his body down (b-air actually flattens him in the air; f-air only on the ground). I almost find myself not caring about Luma at all in this MU, and trying to get past it to hit Rosalina, especially because Rosalina can punish you for landing a f-air on Luma (really silly, but you lag in the air and then she just whacks you). Juggling Rosalina isn't too hard either because n-air won't really interrupt your juggles, and d-air only beats up-air if you're directly below her.

At a distance... Gravitational Pull doesn't fully negate Tjolt, because Pikachu can close the gap on you while the Tjolt is moving. Also, Quick Attack on a GP is probably annoying for Rosalina since it gets Pikachu in close as well and also does quite a bit of damage given how light she is (she doesn't want to randomly take 7% when she dies at 98% or something), so overall it's probably better to powershield it most of the time, unless Pikachu is super far away.

Rosalina kills Pikachu early but the reverse is also true with an up-smash, and Rosalina's big hurtboxes and hitboxless recovery enables effective edgeguarding. You can ledge cancel Quick Attack -> n-air on any stage except Lylat to interrupt her getting to the ledge, and if she recovers onto the stage as a mixup you can QA to her and up-smash sometimes because of the landing lag (I often miss the QA angle because Rosalina's angle can be hard to predict and end up just QA'ing through her, though). Grabbing the ledge and Thundering in place (let go of ledge -> use Thunder) if she's recovering low can be very effective too; Rosalina has to pass through the Thunder to get to the ledge or back to the stage. Also, because her offstage aerials don't come out in front of her that fast (n-air takes a while to get there, f-air often misses), hitting her with a quick f-air can be an option too. It's super painful to let Rosalina actually get to or near the ledge because then she has Luma shenanigans and Pikachu doesn't have the range to contest that, so edgeguarding aggressively is key in this MU.

I think it's even, but on the Pikachu side there are a lot of tools that are of particular effect against Rosalina compared to other characters, so it may not be.