Character Competitive Impressions

[Dabuz]

Rosalina's Matchups

Rosalina's matchups are less cut-and-dry than many others'. Stocks/matches can be swingy because Rosalina wins/loses hard in her advantaged/disadvantaged states. Luma is a difficult variable to assess in part because his priority mechanics aren't intuitive. The clash/trade interactions behave consistently from a mechanical standpoint, but player interactions are muddied by the minor disjoints, a tiny hurtbox, and situational Luma positioning. The anti-Luma meta seem's to be pretty stale at the moment too- only doubly so with custom specials' exclusion.

Clear disadvantage:
Diddy

Small disadvantage:
Sheik

Even:
Fox
Mario

Small advantage:
Captain Falcon
Sonic

Clear advantage: (everyone else probably)
Wario
Pit
DK
Luigi
Ness
Greninja
Megaman

Not sure yet:
ZSS (leaning clear advantage)
Pikachu (leaning even)
Yoshi (leaning clear advantage)
DHD (leaning small advantage)

@ Dabuz - agree/disagree?

Disagree, you way overrate my character.

Loses to Diddy hard.

Fox, Sonic, Falcon, Pika, Peach, Olimar, Sheik slightly

Even with ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, Shulk, TL, Bowser, Charizard, Marth, Lucario

Slight advantage to solid advantage on everyone else


As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?

Spoiler

 

[Thinkaman]

As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?

I'm curious about your thoughts on Lucario. (Anyone can chime in too)

 

[j3lly]

I don't want to go through 360 pages of text so maybe someone can some this up for me but what exactly is holding Megaman back? It seemed that everyone's first impressions were that he wasn't every good although not much reason is ever given why. He has excellent zoning/spacing tools, good disjointed hitboxes, has an arsenal of tools to deal with a majority of the cast, good recovery, etc. I'm imagining he's suffering from the Olimar-syndrome where he's initially looked at as a quirky gimmick character before his true potential is realized.

Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

 

[Ffamran]

Whoa, why is Ike so low? Even without customs, people say Ike and Shulk are pretty close to each other... Seriously, why are there no Ikes? I only remember Ryuga and I believe someone mentioned a Blitz, but I have never seen Ike besides Ryuga's used in tournament level play.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

Whoa, why is Ike so low? Even without customs, people say Ike and Shulk are pretty close to each other... Seriously, why are there no Ikes? I only remember Ryuga and I believe someone mentioned a Blitz, but I have never seen Ike besides Ryuga's used in tournament level play.

If it helps, I have pretty good placings with Ike offline and online, but I have yet to play on stream (Smash 4 has only had ONE streaming setup at a monthly in CO so far and I wasn't even able to go) or against anyone with reliable capture.

Also, look up Ryo and San, some of the most prominent Ikes since Brawl days.

 

[Dabuz]

Lucario has an awful neutral but his ability to not die and kill in 3 hits makes him sorta like ganondorf with mobility, range, and a good projectile, so it's like...he should be bad, but the human elements keeps him decent. Ike just has the issue where faster attacks can challenge and hit him before any of his attacks come out and his size + low mobility makes it really easy to do just that. He's always relatively predictable with not enough damage output to make up for it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Disagree, you way overrate my character.

Loses to Diddy hard.

Fox, Sonic, Falcon, Pika, Peach, Olimar, Sheik slightly

Even with ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, Shulk, TL, Bowser, Charizard, Marth, Lucario

Slight advantage to solid advantage on everyone else


As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?

Spoiler

i really don't think ike, little mac, and my sweet lovly samus are bad.
@san. for ike and @ Thinkaman for little mac. i typed way 2 much about samus today.
expecially considering a little mac made it into top 16
*edit* lol looks like thinkaman is already here Xd

 

[Dabuz]

IIRC he only used mac in one match and lost it.

 

[Lavani]

As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?

Regarding Miis, are their rankings with or without limitations on their customization?

I can agree with that list for the most part, I think Ike's a little low but with his representation it's kind of impossible to point to anything to support him being better.

Curious to hear your thoughts on Falco and Doc.

 

[Yokoblue]

Disagree, you way overrate my character.
As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?

Spoiler

I only disagree with Ike, King dedede, Little Mac and Link. I think the first 3 should be at least viable. Little mac and Link could make it to bottom of competitive. Other than that... Great list

 

[Road Death Wheel]

IIRC he only used mac in one match and lost it.

sure maybe in top 16 but hes used him plenty of times through out the 2 days.

 

[Ffamran]

If it helps, I have pretty good placings with Ike offline and online, but I have yet to play on stream or against anyone with reliable capture.

Also, look up Ryo and San, some of the most prominent Ikes since Brawl days.

Ike and Pikachu are on the same boat of people know they're good, but pretty much nobody plays as them or nobody knows who plays as them. I don't know why, though. I mean, there's bound to be Ike and Pikachu players in this entire world. Well, there's Ryuga, San, Ryo, and Blitz? for Ike, ESAM for Pikachu, and aSMa? - is that how you spell it? - for Greninja.

Ike's got range and power and he's also pretty mobile like Bowser. Bair is fast for a heavyweight and kills well, Nair and Fair can be mixed up for approaches alongside a RAR Bair, Nair has good coverage. Ftilt is a good spacer and kill move, Utilt is a good kill and an anti-air option alongside Up Smash, Side Smash is good as a punish, Down Smash is Ike's fastest Smash and I think it'd be a fairly good move OOS along with being a roll punish. Eruption can be used to edgeguard. So can Utilt and Dair if Ragnell catches someone before they snap to the ledge - you can meteor someone right before they grab the ledge. It's funny and awesome.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Ike and Pikachu are on the same boat of people know they're good, but pretty much nobody plays as them or nobody knows who plays as them. I don't know why, though. I mean, there's bound to be Ike and Pikachu players in this entire world. Well, there's Ryuga, San, Ryo, and Blitz? for Ike, ESAM for Pikachu, and aSMa? - is that how you spell it? - for Greninja.

Ike's got range and power and he's also pretty mobile like Bowser. Bair is fast for a heavyweight and kills well, Nair and Fair can be mixed up for approaches alongside a RAR Bair, Nair has good coverage. Ftilt is a good spacer and kill move, Utilt is a good kill and an anti-air option alongside Up Smash, Side Smash is good as a punish, Down Smash is Ike's fastest Smash and I think it'd be a fairly good move OOS along with being a roll punish. Eruption can be used to edgeguard. So can Utilt and Dair if Ragnell catches someone before they snap to the ledge - you can meteor someone right before they grab the ledge. It's funny and awesome.

also shulks overall frame data is extreamly similar to ikes. there aint not monado art that speeds up his attacks. ike is good iv seen it at the come up in person when i got my arse handed beutifully by blitz

 

[Yokoblue]

Ike and Pikachu are on the same boat of people know they're good, but pretty much nobody plays as them or nobody knows who plays as them. I don't know why, though. I mean, there's bound to be Ike and Pikachu players in this entire world. Well, there's Ryuga, San, Ryo, and Blitz? for Ike, ESAM for Pikachu, and aSMa? - is that how you spell it? - for Greninja.

Ike's got range and power and he's also pretty mobile like Bowser. Bair is fast for a heavyweight and kills well, Nair and Fair can be mixed up for approaches alongside a RAR Bair, Nair has good coverage. Ftilt is a good spacer and kill move, Utilt is a good kill and an anti-air option alongside Up Smash, Side Smash is good as a punish, Down Smash is Ike's fastest Smash and I think it'd be a fairly good move OOS along with being a roll punish. Eruption can be used to edgeguard. So can Utilt and Dair if Ragnell catches someone before they snap to the ledge - you can meteor someone right before they grab the ledge. It's funny and awesome.

Nakat also play more and more Pikachu. I think he even won some tournament or semi finals with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzXyOiyojeM

 

[Dabuz]

Curious to hear your thoughts on Falco and Doc.

Doc is in a weird spot where he's a worse clone of mario but because he's a clone of mario his tools are effective and accomplish similar things but to a worse scale. His lowered speed and less damaging grab combos just make him worse with followups than his plumber brethren. Even with a laughable recovery his raw damage, speed, and kill power makes him dangerous.

Falco is honestly a character I can't explain my placement of but i just "feel" he's pretty decent.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Nakat also play more and more Pikachu. I think he even won some tournament or semi finals with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzXyOiyojeM

yes yes pika is awsome. faced a good one myself recently. goodness they are balls 2 fight. barly scrape by on them.

@ Dabuz ah so this is a more impression based list. *puts down pitch fork* Xd not that i trully cared 2 much anyway. people will understand one day.

 

[Dabuz]

Well duh it's an impression list, that's what tier lists -are- unless they go by factual data such as tourney results and MU spreads (which is sitll impressions) but we won't have that in significant cpaacity for at least a year.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

Ike just has the issue where faster attacks can challenge and hit him before any of his attacks come out and his size + low mobility makes it really easy to do just that. He's always relatively predictable with not enough damage output to make up for it.

He has tools to make up for literally all of those issues besides size.

You need to play Ikes that use jab, grab, dtilt, utilt, some ftilt for spacing, nair, bair, and some fair/uair a lot more. His stuff is safe and rewarding with good movement and spacing on shield, I have yet to be punished for hitting with the tip of bair on shield.

He can challenge a lot in the air via nair, and pretty much anything with bair since it's so amazing.

Bad mobility? Short hop Quick Draw has practically no landing lag, his mobility and spacing around platforms is great, and his mobility otherwise isn't as bad as people think. Everyone's shields and rolls are ridiculous, and spotdodging is really good, so Ike taking advantage of stuff (even if everyone has it) still helps him in comparison to the rest of the cast. Patience really pays off on Ike.

He's only relatively predictable if the player is a scrub, and his damage output is pretty beastly. Almost all of his combos are generally 2 hits, and most only work at low %, but they hurt (20+ each fresh). Dthrow to Aether at 0 is easily a free 25% if you don't have much rage on Ike. If you don't think he has good damage output, hit training mode with him, and look at his combos or even 1-hit wonders. On top of good damage output, he kills early, and rage benefits him better than most of the cast. You can have all the damage output in the world, but killing from 40-100 is much better than killing from 130-180. Almost all of my wins with Ike are 2 stock wins, whether I'm playing by 2 or 3 stocks, because of the rage mechanic, and well, Ike just being good.

He should easily be upper-A on that list. He has what it takes, people need to get over the stigma of him being a noob character that still hasn't gone away from '08 and realize that he's pretty good now. At least viable. I don't feel like there's any unwinnables for Ike, his matchup spread is pretty decent, at least enough to warrant being competitively good.

If Pit, Dark Pit, Toon Link, and Shulk are A-tier, Ike being anything below A is grade-A trolling.

 

[Ffamran]

I believe Ike's Uair can challenge a lot too since it's Ragnell that's hitting above Ike and not Ike himself like Fox using Uair.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I believe Ike's Uair can challenge a lot too since it's Ragnell that's hitting above Ike and not Ike himself like Fox using Uair.

Falling or fast-falling uair is incredibly good. It can sneak in a free kill every now and then, or punish someone sleeping on Ike's options in the air, fresh uair is 11% which is pretty decent. It also lingers a bit, so it can catch an airdodge or more aerial movement from the opponent's end while manuevering Ike.

Dair comes out slow, but if Ike can challenge something with it, that's 15 damage and potentially a live funeral for the other fighter.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

idk, Dabuz, I think D3 is at least viable. He's got some room to grow.

But I don't think he'll break out of the bottom rungs of whatever we're gonna call mid-tier in a couple of years, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

Also, Ryo generally takes 1st in anything he enters with Ike. I've taken 1st on wifi several times and my placings are never worse than 9th or 13th (out of 30, 57, whatever) and usually 2nd to 4th offline and online. I've been maining Ike in Brawl since '08, and seeing Ike in the 3DS version (where I thought he was solid mid) and post 1.0.4 (where I thought he was solid upper-mid/high borderline), I wouldn't continue to main him if he didn't improve greatly or if he didn't have what it takes. I feel like he's among the best sword characters.

 

[webbedspace]

IIRC he only used mac in one match and lost it.

Not true.

 

[Conda]

Are we still feeling Marth isn't very good at all (other characters can do what he can but better)? Or are we feeling that, played well, he doesn't have any weaknesses (sentiment during the 3ds days and first month of Wii U)?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Disagree, you way overrate my character.

Loses to Diddy hard.

Fox, Sonic, Falcon, Pika, Peach, Olimar, Sheik slightly

Even with ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, Shulk, TL, Bowser, Charizard, Marth, Lucario

Slight advantage to solid advantage on everyone else


As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?

Spoiler

Screw you. I just explained to everyone why making tier lists is horrible. Though I'll just choose to focus on one thing that catches my attention.

Aaanyhow to move to a lesser discussed subject, Bowser Jr. is very interesting. I know my friend @ViceGrip is trying to put in serious work with the character, and as I recall not long ago placed 4th out of 55 in a tournament at San Diego.

What's most interesting about Bowser Jr is by design, he's probably the most aggressive character in the game. The character almost never has a reason to really be waiting for his opponent to do anything. Everything in his toolset and even his weaknesses suggests he's a character that really wants to be attacking or setting up on his opponent virtually non-stop. You aren't ever camping with his projectiles if you're playing him right, given his projectiles are awful for that, but much better for creating openings or capitalizing. And boy, attacking with him is profitable. He has combos, generally good damage, and his aerials cover good options in the positive state, especially offstage.

His main weaknesses as far as I'm aware are that he's actually fairly tall, and also his grab is pretty mediocre (I'm guessing the logic is that it probably needs to be subpar to not make him insane). Other than that, I believe he's more suffering from a lack of representation above anything else.

 

[incrediblej]

Spoiler

[/quote]
I dont agree with all of your list little mac does have a problem off stage but good macs will stay on the ground so he's a C

lucario I say more of a high B or low A with his aura (not sure how to spell it) he becomes really good plus rage which makes keills alot easier he is a bit slow so he takes getting used to, the only way to kill lucario would be to launch off screen upwards to the sides of the screen it needs to be a definite kill or else he can get back to the ledge (he has crazy recovery distance aura)

Samus like road death wheel said can easily be a C at the least

If toonlink is an A, link should be also I main toonlink and its hard to kill unless u charge usmash, land side smash 2nd hit, forward air, and upair, down air is risky its more for the edge of the stage cause you can't cancel or not that I know of while link's down air can meteor and the animation feels like it ends early if lands a hit his uair is safe if timed cause of its range not sure of f-air or n-air u-smash can kill on final hit and s-smash can kill really well on final hit, his special s do set up combos gale boomerang can pull characters back to link if used well, arrows after update don't knock back as much and damage as much, bombs are better used than a dash attack and can be used in the air to land with out opponent interfering

@ Road Death Wheel link's tether recovery is not as good as samus, but as a grab I say less punishable I'm not sure how many frames of end lag but I think link has less, and recovery with speacial I say link is safer approaching a ledge bht samus is atacking on all her sides and links is just to his left and right which makes them even but link has more damage and range

 

[Conda]

Friendly request @ incrediblej - could you put more effort in your writing? Would make it easier for people to read and converse with you.

 

[Thinkaman]

IIRC he only used mac in one match and lost it.

IIRC he actually used Mac to beat Amsa in the last round he won, securing top 8.

6WX's killer Sonic beat both his DHD and Little Mac, though.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Usual shenanigans spotted, re: Link v Samus. Better aerial game is probably true, but better recovery is definitely not (tether grab, don't forget), neither is better negative state in general (Samus isn't bad in negative state), and Samus is heavier too I believe for what it's worth--it isn't worth much, I'd say. Better customs? That's not even close to being true; Samus has some of the best customs in the game; Relentless Missiles are game changers that Link really wishes that he had access to. Also, Samus' z-air is better than Link's, and that's important for a strong midrange option.

I'm gonna have to challenge the assertion that Samus' customs are better than Link's. Relentless Missiles is completely insane but Link has Meteor Bombs... Am I the only person who thinks Meteor Bombs are kind of ridiculous? Samus has better customs over all but not by that much.

Samus isn't bad though, not by any means. I think she's just another character lost and overlooked due to preconceived notions...

 

[Sinister Slush]

Even with ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, Shulk, TL, Bowser, Charizard, Marth, Lucario

Late but what made you change your mind on 60:40 advantage on Yoshi to now even?
Man I slow

 

[Thinkaman]

Not gonna lie; I think Meteor Bombs--though good and optimal--are overrated.

 

[etecoon]

Are we still feeling Marth isn't very good at all (other characters can do what he can but better)? Or are we feeling that, played well, he doesn't have any weaknesses (sentiment during the 3ds days and first month of Wii U)?

I haven't spent a ton of time playing him, but my impression is that he definitely has weaknesses and he's not very good. He lost his ability to safely control space with aerials, ledge traps are worse, his shield pressure is worse(good players shouldn't get hit by shield breaker), his aerial nerfs also make it harder to land safely, and he still has the same weaknesses he did previously.

On the other hand it is easier I think to get tippers in this game because movement was toned down and also made more linear, there's less opponents can do to throw off your spacing. I think Marth is just a really average character in this game, he has some things that allow him to win if he outplays his opponent enough but it's the more difficult path for sure

 

[Yokoblue]

Spoiler

If toonlink is an A, link should be also I main toonlink and its hard to kill unless u charge usmash, land side smash 2nd hit, forward air, and upair, down air is risky its more for the edge of the stage cause you can't cancel or not that I know of while link's down air can meteor and the animation feels like it ends early if lands a hit his uair is safe if timed cause of its range not sure of f-air or n-air u-smash can kill on final hit and s-smash can kill really well on final hit, his special s do set up combos gale boomerang can pull characters back to link if used well, arrows after update don't knock back as much and damage as much, bombs are better used than a dash attack and can be used in the air to land with out opponent interfering

I think ToonLink can have a hard time killing but really doesnt lack kills setup, similar to pikachu in that way.

• Back throw at ledge around 105%, mid stage at.... 150% (?)
• Dash up smash at around 110%
• Naked fair hit at around 110%
• Jump cancel bomb into fair at around 100%
• Side smash 2nd hit, down smash 2nd hit around 120-130%
• Boomerang confirm hit into fair at around 100%
• Up air at around 120%
• Down air spike near the edge (you do it on stage) (fancy)

Thats 8 way to kill at around 120% in average (counting a small rage)
He also has less a hard time against spammers unlike Link and since hes floatier, can be less comboed than Link (up tilt strings on Link anyone ?)

 

[pikazz]

Aaanyhow to move to a lesser discussed subject, Bowser Jr. is very interesting. I know my friend @ViceGrip is trying to put in serious work with the character, and as I recall not long ago placed 4th out of 55 in a tournament at San Diego.

What's most interesting about Bowser Jr is by design, he's probably the most aggressive character in the game. The character almost never has a reason to really be waiting for his opponent to do anything. Everything in his toolset and even his weaknesses suggests he's a character that really wants to be attacking or setting up on his opponent virtually non-stop. You aren't ever camping with his projectiles if you're playing him right, given his projectiles are awful for that, but much better for creating openings or capitalizing. And boy, attacking with him is profitable. He has combos, generally good damage, and his aerials cover good options in the positive state, especially offstage.

His main weaknesses as far as I'm aware are that he's actually fairly tall, and also his grab is pretty mediocre (I'm guessing the logic is that it probably needs to be subpar to not make him insane). Other than that, I believe he's more suffering from a lack of representation above anything else.

this got my attention. bowser jr is anything but bad in my opinion! he has alot of setups and can play both aggressive and defensive, but he has more aggressive moveset style!
spamming his article isnt that good, but using his mecha-koopa is a great stage controll, limiting the opponent area and choices!

even if he is one tall fella, he do have some special about it! if he get hits on the clown cart, he only takes 75-85% damage/knockback instead for full 100%. but if you hit Jr directly he takes 115-120% more! that can be solved with "crounch"/squat so he hides into the clown cart, he can easier do punishing by squating at early % than others!

sadly, he doesnt get that representation like he deserves in my opinion!

I will also join a tourny this month and see how far I will get with Jr (and Jigglypuff + ROB as secondaries)

 

[Nobie]

You know, I think a lot of people including myself have been using the whole matchup ratios thing (e.g. this character has a 6:4 matchup against this other character) somewhat incorrectly. I get the feeling that people have been using the numbers as a way of expressing the likelihood of a character winning one match against another character, when traditionally what it usually expresses is "if these two characters fought 10 times, how many times would these characters win against each other?" These are not entirely distinct ideas of course, bu they're different enough that the answer to one might not be the answer to the other.

 

[Radical Larry]

Again, let me clarify (since I posted when I was quite tired and didn't have much sense):

Link's Bombs absorb the Full Charged Charge Shot and Aura Sphere into a cancel (I know that's established).
What I meant about Link being faster overall is the fact of his speed increase + attack speed, not overall speed against Samus in terms of running and aerial mobility.
Link's recovery is definitely better, with a higher recovery move overall, a better recovery move setup, and even customs that allow his recovery to outdo Samus' by a longshot.
I said Link's combo POTENTIAL, not combo ability.
Link's ground game is not bad, it's also around Samus', if not a bit better by a little margin; same goes with the aerial game. Remember, I look at speed and overall damage output and if you can get out of it (you can get out of Samus' F-Air, but you can't with Link's).
If you look at her meteor attack, or her D-Air in general, it acts like a very short version of Marth's D-Air, but Link's D-Air on the other hand, can meteor from any point on Link's body on the first frames, unlike Samus, who needs to hit downward with the D-Air for a meteor. Even in terms of power, Link's D-Air can beat Samus'.

Uggh radical... it's unfortunate he represents Link T_T, he can actually say a correct thing or two every once in a while, but he surrounds it with so much crap no one would believe a word he says. Hopefully I can clarify some actual points.

Don't underestimate me kid. I'm willing to come against you one-on-one if you (or anyone, really) want.

(Again, yes, I give misinformation time to time, especially yesterday, but that's because I don't keep onto date on the boards and focus more on the game; it wasn't a good day for me yesterday to be honest, it was a late night, I was tired, angry, all of this stuff, I'm sorry. And about my 3 frame accusation, that's only at points. Normally I can only do ~11 frames reaction time myself. I don't win all of the time, honestly.)

 

[meleebrawler]

Somewhere in the Jr. threads, I believe a jab lock lies.

 

[FullMoon]

Spoiler

I don't really disagree with much in this list, but I think Greninja and Pac-Man should be in A tier. They both have a lot going for them that I think makes them to be very competitive characters. They just have more of a skill ceiling to them (especially Greninja, I think it'll take quite some time for players to get even close to the things aMSa can pull off), but they're versatile enough that they can really overwhelm their opponents with all the options they have. I can't say much more about Pac though, but Greninja has plenty of combos and kill-setups and his kit flows very well with his playstyle. I'm biased, of course, but I really think he should be in A tier.

I also think Toon Link should be in B. I don't think he has much going for him really, at least not enough to make him A.

 

[⑨ball]

Who should I be watching for Villager?

It seems a lot of people think really highly of him, but I've never seen him perform well outside of Doubles and hyper aggressive for no reason players.

 

[Antonykun]

Who should I be watching for Villager?

It seems a lot of people think really highly of him, but I've never seen him perform well outside of Doubles and hyper aggressive for no reason players.

Zee is a very good Villager